4462 48GLSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 August 16, 2004 8 9:42 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4463 48GLSAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please be seated. 3 There's something up on the screen. 4 All right. I don't see Miss Baker. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Miss Baker will not be here this 6 morning. 7 THE COURT: All right. What's going to be on this 8 morning? The only reason I say that is if I have to get any of 9 my prior rulings, I want to make sure that I have them 10 available. 11 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is our plan for this 12 morning. First, we're going to offer into evidence a series of 13 exhibits. I can list them. It's a lengthy series. I can list 14 them for the Court if the Court would like at this point. 15 THE COURT: Are there any ones to which I've made -- 16 MR. BARKOW: We're not going to publish them all. 17 We're just going to offer them, actually. Some of them are 18 exhibits as to which -- then we're going to publish some 19 exhibits to which the Court has made rulings for limiting 20 instructions. So I could -- if the Court wants to give the 21 limiting instructions at that point, I can get to that. 22 First, we're going to offer a series of exhibits. 23 Then we're going to seek to publish the following exhibits in 24 this order: 2018 -- 25 THE COURT: As to the exhibits that you're going to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4464 48GLSAT1 1 offer, are there any objections to those exhibits? 2 MR. BARKOW: There have been, but -- I don't know. I 3 don't know. I've listed them for Ms. Shellow-Levine. 4 MR. TIGAR: We received the list five minutes ago, 5 your Honor. 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, several of them -- all of the 7 ones from the Sattar search are ones either which Defendant 8 Stewart have said they are not objecting or the Court has ruled 9 admissible. The others are exhibits that are DVDs of prison 10 visits and have been the subject of extensive litigation. 11 There have been many objections, but I'm not quite sure what 12 they intend to do when we offer them into evidence. These are 13 the DVDs of the prison visits. 14 THE COURT: My recollection is that there were no 15 objections to the DVDs of the prison visits. In fact, there 16 was applause for admitting those exhibits. So -- 17 MR. BARKOW: That's not my recollection, your Honor, 18 but that's good with us. 19 THE COURT: Am I right? 20 MR. RUHNKE: No objection, your Honor, to the DVDs. 21 MR. BARKOW: Okay. And then we -- and then we are 22 going to seek to publish several exhibits from the Sattar 23 search. I can list those for the Court. And then we are going 24 to get to telephone calls. 25 THE COURT: Well, if it's a series of exhibits as to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4465 48GLSAT1 1 which there are -- there have been no objections except with 2 respect to ones as to which I've ruled, and if there are any 3 limiting instructions that I said I would give to any of them, 4 that's what I'm -- 5 MR. BARKOW: I'll list them, your Honor. There are 6 three that the Court has recently ruled -- actually, there are 7 three that I think there are no limiting instructions for: 8 2018 and 2018T; 2019 and 2019T; 2059 and 2059T. Although I do 9 think there would be limiting instruction. 10 2034S and 2034X are offered only with respect to 11 Mr. Sattar and with respect to his state of mind, knowledge and 12 intent. And 2039 -- 13 THE COURT: Hold on. 14 MR. BARKOW: I'm sorry. 15 THE COURT: 2018, 2019 and 2059 are all offered 16 subject to connection. 17 MR. BARKOW: If I could check something for one 18 second, your Honor. 19 (Off the record) 20 MR. BARKOW: 2059 is definitely subject to connection. 21 And -- 22 THE COURT: That's right. I said that on Friday. 23 MR. BARKOW: I believe that 2018 and 2019 are not 24 objected to and have not been objected to. So I don't think 25 there's been discussion about those exhibits. They are -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4466 48GLSAT1 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I approach Mr. Barkow 2 for a second? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Off the record discussion) 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I continue? 2059 was 6 subject to litigation. The Court ruled it was admissible, and 7 I think the proper instruction to that is subject to 8 connection. 9 THE COURT: Correct. 10 MR. BARKOW: 2018 and 2019 and the corresponding T's 11 were not objected to. And what they are are questions for 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and we think that there's no limiting 13 instruction necessary for these. There was no objection to 14 them. Basically, they're just evidence of questions going into 15 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. So... 16 One of them, though, is from Montasser Al-Zayyat. 17 It's a series of questions, so there's really no assertions in 18 there, but to the extent there would be assertions in there, 19 that would also be subject to connection, given who 20 Mr. Al-Zayyat is, but there are no assertions in there, so we 21 don't believe there's a need for any limiting instruction in 22 there as they're just a series of questions. 23 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Tigar? 24 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor, I've got the 25 exhibits now and I was looking at them. I wasn't standing to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4467 48GLSAT1 1 be heard. I'll be seated. If I could just have another 2 moment. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 (Off the record) 5 MR. BARKOW: Shall I continue listing, your Honor? 6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, with respect to 2034 -- 7 THE COURT: No, 2018 and 2019. 8 MR. TIGAR: 2018 and 2019, no objection. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 2059 is subject to connection. 10 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 11 THE COURT: 2034 is received only with respect to 12 Mr. Sattar, only with respect to his knowledge, intent and 13 state of mind. 14 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. And your Honor, it's 15 2034, S like Sam, and 2034X. It's a stipulation as to an 16 excerpt. 17 THE COURT: 2034S and 2034X. 18 MR. BARKOW: X. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 20 MR. BARKOW: And then 2039X. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. BARKOW: Which would be accompanied by an oral 23 stipulation, which we had had correspondence with the 24 defendants. I believe the last letter I sent accurately states 25 what I was going to say with respect to the agreement for, but SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4468 48GLSAT1 1 I haven't heard back anything from the defendants to the 2 contrary. 3 2039X is going to be prefaced with a statement that 4 the parties stipulate and agree that Government Exhibit 2039X 5 is excerpted from but otherwise identical to Government 6 Exhibit 2039, which is Sheikh Abdel Rahman's passport. 7 MR. PAUL: That's fine. We have no objection to that. 8 THE COURT: All right. No objections. 9 MR. BARKOW: Then we're going to move to the reading 10 of calls. And then I can list those as well if the Court would 11 like, the numbers. 12 THE COURT: All of those calls are admitted? 13 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. There are eight of 14 them. They've all been admitted. 15 THE COURT: Why don't you list them? 16 MR. BARKOW: 1050X. We were also going to seek to 17 play part of 1050, which has been admitted. 1051X, 1052X, 18 1053X, 1054X, 1059X, 1060X, 1061X. 19 And at that point, we were going to call two 20 witnesses. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. PAUL: Judge, may I just have a second with 23 Mr. Barkow? 24 THE COURT: Absolutely. 25 (Off the record discussion) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4469 48GLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just so all the parties are 2 aware, Mr. Paul just indicated that, with respect to 2039, what 3 I said beforehand, will be slightly amended. 2039 is actually 4 a copy of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's passport, so it will read that 5 2039X is excerpted from but otherwise identical to Government 6 Exhibit 2039, which a copy of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's passport. 7 THE COURT: Okay. By the way, it's been some time 8 since I have had an updated exhibit list provided. 9 MR. BARKOW: We can put one together, your Honor, and 10 provide it to the Court. 11 THE COURT: All right. Are the parties ready to bring 12 in the jury? All right. Let's bring in the jury. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4470 48GLSAT1 1 (In open court) 2 (Jury entering courtroom) 3 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 4 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It's really good 5 to see you all again. 6 JURORS: Good morning. 7 THE COURT: And I hope that you enjoyed your recess. 8 At the beginning of the trial, I introduced you to my 9 deputy clerk, Mr. Fletcher, and my law clerks, Jonathan Barton 10 and David Carpenter. I want to introduce you now to another 11 law clerk who will be with us during the course of the trial. 12 Margo Kaplan, who is sitting over there next to Mr. Martin. 13 Thank you. 14 All right. 15 Mr. Barkow? 16 MR. BARKOW: Thank you, your Honor. 17 Your Honor, at this point the government would like to 18 offer into evidence a series of exhibits which I can list for 19 the Court. The government offers Government Exhibits 1700C, 20 1701C, 1702C, 1704C, 1705C, 1706C, 1710C, 1711C, 1712C, 1713C, 21 1714C, 1716C, 1717C, 1720C, 1721C, 1722C. 22 The government also offers into evidence at this 23 point -- 24 THE COURT: I believe there are no objections to those 25 exhibits? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4471 48GLSAT1 1 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Those exhibits are received in 3 evidence. 4 (Government's Exhibits 1700C, 1701C, 1702C, 1704C, 5 1705C, 1706C, 1710C, 1711C, 1712C, 1713C, 1714C, 1716C, 1717C, 6 1720C, 1721C, 1722C received in evidence) 7 MR. BARKOW: At this point, the government also offers 8 into evidence Government Exhibits 2011 and 2011T; 2012 and 9 2012T; 2014, 2014T; 2016 and 2016T; 2018 and 2018T; 2019 and 10 2019T; 2024 and 2024T; 2034X and 2034S; 2039X; 2059, 2059T; 11 2060A and 2060AT; 2060B and 2060 BT; 2075 and 2075S, like Sam. 12 MR. TIGAR: May we have a moment, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we ask the Court to 15 reserve on this list until the break so we can check the list? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we'd seek to 19 publish to the jury some of these exhibits. May I go to the 20 podium? 21 THE COURT: All right. The last list I haven't ruled 22 on yet because I was asked to reserve on it. There were some 23 that had been previously discussed, and I know that there's a 24 resolution. So tell me before you publish the exhibit to the 25 jury whether it's an exhibit in evidence or not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4472 48GLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Actually, yes, we were going to start 2 with 2018 and 2018T, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. I believe there are no 4 objections to 2018 and 2018T. 5 MR. BARKOW: That's correct. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 2018 and 2018T are received in 7 evidence. 8 (Government's Exhibits 2018, 2018T received in 9 evidence) 10 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may Ms. Griffith put 2018 on 11 the screen for the jury? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2018, in evidence, 14 was displayed to the jury) 15 MR. BARKOW: May I display 2018T while I read? 16 THE COURT: Is there any dispute as to the source of 17 2018? 18 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. This series of 19 exhibits, including 2018, is all evidence from the Sattar 20 search and is subject to a prior stipulation. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. BARKOW: May I read this, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2018T, in evidence, 25 was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4473 48GLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, we would seek 2 permission to read -- display Government Exhibit 2019, and read 3 to the jury 2019T. 4 THE COURT: All right. I believe there are no 5 objections to 2019 and 2019T? 6 MR. TIGAR: That's correct, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. 2019 and 2019T are received in 8 evidence. 9 (Government's Exhibit2019, 2019T received in evidence) 10 MR. BARKOW: May I display 2019 to the jury your Honor 11 using the ELMO. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 14 MR. BARKOW: May I read the English your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibits 2019, 2019T, in 17 evidence, were displayed and read to the jury). 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the next page of government 19 Exhibit 2019: 20 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2019, in evidence, 21 was displayed to the jury) 22 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury on 23 the ELMO and read to the jury Government Exhibit 2019T? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2019T, in evidence, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4474 48GLSAT1 1 was displayed and read to the jury) 2 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, the government 3 would seek to publish to the jury Government Exhibit 2059 and 4 2059T. 5 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, 6 Government Exhibits 2059 and 2059T are received subject to 7 connection. What that means, as I've told you before, is you 8 may consider the exhibits unless for some reason I tell you to 9 disregard them. 10 (Government's Exhibit 2059, 2059T received in 11 evidence) 12 (At this point, Government's Exhibit 2059, in 13 evidence, was displayed to the jury) 14 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, if we could put on the second 15 page, which is the back of Government Exhibit 2059? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. BARKOW: Now, may Ms. Griffith put on the screen 18 and may I read Government Exhibit 2059T? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2059T, in evidence, 21 was displayed and read to the jury) 22 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 23 would seek permission to read to the jury and display to the 24 jury Government Exhibit 2034S. 25 THE COURT: I believe there are no objections subject SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4475 48GLSAT1 1 to a limiting instruction that these exhibits are received only 2 with respect to Mr. Sattar, and only with respect to his 3 knowledge and intent and state of mind. Correct? 4 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. May I put 2034S on the 5 ELMO? 6 THE COURT: Yes. The exhibits are received subject to 7 that limiting instruction. 8 (Government's Exhibits 2034S, 2034X received in 9 evidence) 10 MR. BARKOW: Government Exhibit 2034S. 11 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2034S, in evidence, 12 was displayed and read to the jury) 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, my I display Government 14 Exhibit 2034X on the ELMO and read it to the jury? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2034X, in evidence, 17 was displayed and read to the jury) 18 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, the government 19 would seek to publish to the jury Government Exhibit 2039X, 20 which I need to retrieve from my table. 21 THE COURT: All right. I believe there are no 22 objections to Government Exhibits 2039X or S? 23 MR. BARKOW: X, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: 2039X. All right. 25 MR. BARKOW: Before that, your Honor, I would like to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4476 48GLSAT1 1 state to the jury a stipulation between the parties. 2 THE COURT: All right. So Government Exhibit 2039X -- 3 MR. TIGAR: Is there an instruction with respect to 4 Government Exhibit 2039X, your Honor? 5 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. BARKOW: No. Actually, no, I don't think so, your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: I don't believe so. If there is an issue, 10 let's take 2039 up at the break. 11 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, so as not to -- the whole 12 issue of whether there's an instruction or not can be, in our 13 view, respectfully taken up at the break, but if he wants to 14 publish it now, that's fine with us. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 2039X received in evidence. And 16 you said that there is a stipulation? 17 (Government's Exhibit 2039X received in evidence) 18 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. This is an oral 19 stipulation that I would just state to the jury. And that is 20 that the parties stipulate and agree that Government 21 Exhibit 2039X is excerpted from but otherwise identical to 22 Government Exhibit 2039, which is a copy of Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman's passport. 24 May I publish Government Exhibit 2039X? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4477 48GLSAT1 1 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2039X, in evidence, 2 was displayed to the jury) 3 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a moment, your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (Off the record) 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we'd like to 7 turn back to the intercepted calls, and we would ask the 8 Court -- I think the jurors have been given the headphones. 9 We'd just ask the Court to remind the jurors how they work. 10 And also the circle device needs to be facing front and not 11 blocked. 12 THE COURT: Correct. 13 Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to listen to some 14 recordings. You have the headphones. Remember that the dot in 15 front faces out, and that you turn the knob to turn them on, 16 and when they're not being used, make sure that they're turned 17 off. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we place before the jury 19 Government Exhibit 1050X on the screen? 20 THE COURT: 1050X in evidence? 21 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. BARKOW: This is a call, your Honor, on 24 January 17th of 2000 at 1:29 p.m. between Mr. Sattar and Fawzi. 25 We'd ask permission to play the beginning portion of this call SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4478 48GLSAT1 1 for the jurors. 2 THE COURT: Yes. Put your headphones on please, 3 ladies and gentlemen. 4 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1050, 1050X, in 5 evidence, were displayed and read to the jury). 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we would ask 7 permission to read Government Exhibit 1050X to the jury, with 8 Mr. Forkner reading the lines of Ahmed Abdel Sattar, and myself 9 reading the lines of Fawzi. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Ladies and gentlemen, you can take your headphones 12 off. Thank you. 13 You may proceed. 14 MR. BARKOW: Thank you, your Honor. This is a call, 15 your Honor, as I said, on January 17th, 2000 at 1:29:12. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1050X, in evidence, 17 was read to the jury) 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 19 would request permission to read to the jury Government 20 Exhibit 1051X. 21 THE COURT: In evidence? 22 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence, yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 1051X is received. 24 (Government's Exhibit 1051X received in evidence) 25 THE COURT: You may read 1051X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4479 48GLSAT1 1 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, your Honor, Government 2 Exhibit 1051X is a telephone call that occurred on 3 January 29th, 2000 at 16:31:13. 4 May we publish the transcript to the jury, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1051X, in evidence, 7 was displayed and read to the jury) 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 9 would request permission to read and publish to the jury 10 Government's Exhibit 1052X. 11 THE COURT: In evidence? 12 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, Government 15 Exhibit 1052X is an excerpted transcript of a telephone call 16 from February 3rd, 2000 at 13:02:07. There are three 17 participants in this call. The attributions to Mr. Sattar 18 would be read by Mr. Forkner, and I will read the attributions 19 to the unidentified male and to Lisa Sattar. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1052X, in evidence, 22 was displayed and read to the jury) 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4480 486JSAT2 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 2 would request permission to read and publish to the jury 3 Exhibit 1053 X. 4 THE COURT: In evidence? 5 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, this is an excerpted 8 transcript of a telephone call intercepted by the telephone 9 company on February 3, 2000, 1:55:O5. The attributions to Mr. 10 Sattar will be read by Mr. Forkner, and I will read the 11 attributions to the unidentified male. 12 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1053 X was 13 displayed and read) 14 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point, we request 15 permission to play the beginning of Government Exhibit 1054, 16 which is in evidence, and then to read Government Exhibit 1054 17 X, the transcript of that call. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. BARKOW: When we do so, may we put the first page 20 of the transcript on the screen for the jurors? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. BARKOW: Also, in terms of reading this 23 transcript, your Honor, Mr. Forkner is going to be reading the 24 lines of Ahman Abdel Sattar and Mr. Bove, with the court's 25 permission, is in the audience, if he can approach, he will be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4481 486JSAT2 1 reading the lines of Mohammad Yousry. 2 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, you're 3 about to hear another recording, so put your headphones on, 4 turn them on and put the dot forward. 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on February 6 4th, 2000, 4:46 pm. 7 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1054 X was 8 displayed and read) 9 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, you can 10 take the headphones off, turn them off. All right. You may 11 begin. 12 MR. BARKOW: Thank your Honor. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1054 X was read) 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the next call will be about 16 11 pages. Do you want to take a break at this time? 17 THE COURT: Fine. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a 18 mid-morning break. Please remember my continuing instructions. 19 Remember, ladies and gentlemen, please don't, don't talk about 20 the case at all. Remember always to keep an open mind until 21 you have heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the 22 law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your 23 deliberations. Have a good break, and I'll see you soon. 24 (Jury excused) 25 THE COURT: Mr. Forkner may step down. Please be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4482 486JSAT2 1 seated for just a moment. All right. 2 With respect to 2039 -- 3 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, I had not recalled 4 whether there had been a limiting instruction. 5 THE COURT: No. 6 MR. TIGAR: It was found in Mr. Sattar's home in a 7 Redwell. It is hard to see what it has to do with us. If for 8 some reason I had spoken up earlier and I didn't, that is my 9 problem. 10 THE COURT: No. Actually, there was an objection that 11 was raised and a whole series of objections that I dealt with. 12 It dealt with the other pages of the exhibit which I then 13 excluded. The first couple of pages, there was an objection 14 with respect to relevance which I overruled, so there was no 15 limiting instruction with respect to the first couple of pages 16 which was admitted. 17 MR. TIGAR: If I'm not regarded as having waived it, I 18 would ask for a limiting instruction. I just don't see the 19 relevance to Ms. Stewart of this passport found in a Redwell in 20 someone else's home. 21 THE COURT: The government. 22 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the relevance, I think as the 23 court ruled, is association between Mr. Sattar and Sheikh Abdel 24 Rahman, which is relevant to all of the counts. 25 THE COURT: Yes. I see no need for a limiting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4483 486JSAT2 1 instruction on 2039. 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the other issue that we were 3 looking at when the exhibit list was read to us this morning is 4 about 2024 and 2024T. The translation, which is the only thing 5 I can read, is the second page of a two-page document, which 6 the translation identifies as "missing from the package," and 7 this is apparently a communication. 8 There is some internal evidence it was intended for 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and it bears the names of 8 persons, and 10 it is difficult for us to see how it gets in over a hearsay 11 objection or a relevance or authenticity in the broadest sense 12 of that term given the absence of identifying information. 13 There is certainly contextual evidence about 14 references to names and persons and events, but that only 15 emphasizes the hearsay problem, speaking of the conditions of 16 people in other countries and so on. 17 THE COURT: 2024 was not an exhibit as to which there 18 has been prior correspondence, is it? 19 MR. BARKOW: That's correct, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: And it is not an exhibit that was 21 previously listed, right? 22 MR. BARKOW: That is also correct, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Why don't you put that exhibit over and 24 think about it. I will at least have to listen to argument 25 and -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4484 486JSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: We actually were not intending to publish 2 that presently, your Honor, and because this hasn't been raised 3 before, I am actually not really ready to discuss it. If we 4 could put it over? 5 THE COURT: Sure. 6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I note there is a fax line on 7 2024. Again, I don't know where that comes from. It is June 8 of 2000. 9 THE COURT: Okay. So 2024 is not being offered at 10 this time. The other documents in that list which I was asked 11 to reserve on were 2011 and 2011 T, 2012 and 2012 T, 2014 and 12 2014 T, 2016, 2016 T, 2060 A and AT, B and BT and 2075 -- 13 MR. TIGAR: I am sorry? 14 THE COURT: 2016 T and 2016, 2060 A, 2060 AT , 2060 15 B, 2060 BT, 2075 and 2075 S. 16 MR. TIGAR: Some documents on the list have been 17 introduced, and we checked them as they came came in. They 18 were 2018 -- 19 THE COURT: You're absolutely right, 2018 -- 20 MR. TIGAR: 2019 and 2019 T came in. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 MR. TIGAR: That was one in which the court had ruled. 23 THE COURT: Right. The list I read you were ones that 24 are not yet in, I believe, which you should have up on your 25 screen. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4485 486JSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: I am sorry, your Honor, 2014? 2 THE COURT: 2011 and 2011 T, and correct me if I am 3 wrong, these are the list that Mr. Barkow read and that the 4 defendants asked me to reserve on, and I am attempting to 5 eliminate those as to which they were subsequently offered and 6 admitted. 7 The ones that were left open were 2011 and 2011 T, 8 2012 and 2012 T, 2014 an 2014 T, 2016 and 2016 T, 2060 A and 9 2060 AT, 2060 B and 2060 BT, 2075 and 2075 S. 10 And why don't we just take a break, and you all can go 11 over them and let me know what your positions are. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor has ruled on most of those 13 already, I believe. 14 THE COURT: Okay. All right. See you shortly. 15 (Recess) 16 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 17 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor, during the break 18 Mr. Barkow, Ms. Shellow-Lavine and I were able to talk. There 19 are no admissibility issues that are unresolved with respect to 20 any of the matters that Mr. Barkow raised, except 2014, which 21 is the matter I brought to your Honor's attention just before 22 the break. As to that, it was on a list that the government 23 had tendered to us, the Sattar search list. 24 At that time we had not raised an objection. Now at 25 the moment of admissibility, we have had the opportunity to do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4486 486JSAT2 1 background research that shows us where it came from and so on, 2 and that is why, yes, we do wish to make an objection. It is 3 the one I made before, but it is the only one with respect to 4 that list that Mr. Barkow read before the break. 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just with respect to that 6 exhibit, I ask that we address that at a later time. We are 7 not going to publish it now. 8 THE COURT: That is fine. As to the remaining 9 exhibits on the list, there are no objections? 10 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 11 We are actually not seeking to publish any of those at 12 this time, either, but I think there are no objections. So I 13 guess there is nothing on the table with respect to those 14 exhibits at this point. 15 THE COURT: All right. If there are no objections, 16 you read the list. 17 MR. BARKOW: We would like them to be received, your 18 Honor. We are just not seeking to publish them. 19 THE COURT: Well, the list, when the jury returns is 20 2011, 2011 T, 2012, 2012 T, 2014, 2014 T, 2016, 2016 T, 2060 A, 21 2060 AT, 2060 B, 2060 BT, 2075 and 2075 S will be received in 22 evidence. 23 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. And then -- 25 MR. BARKOW: We have three more calls, your Honor, to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4487 486JSAT2 1 read and then we have testimony by two witnesses. 2 THE COURT: All right. Bring in the jury. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. All right. Ladies 5 and gentlemen, I had reserved on some exhibits, and I will now 6 receive in evidence Government Exhibits 2011 and 2011 T, 2012 7 and 2012 T, 2014 and 2014 T, 2016 and 2016 T, 2060 A and 2060 8 AT, Government Exhibit 2060 B and 2060 BT, 2070 and 2075 S. 9 Those government exhibits are received in evidence. 10 (Government's Exhibits 2011, 2011 T, 2012, 2012 T, 11 2014, 2014 T, 2016, 2016 T, 2060 A, 2060 AT, 2060 B, 2060 BT, 12 2075, 2075 S received in evidence) 13 All right. Mr. Barkow, you may proceed. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor -- 15 MR. TIGAR: I am sorry, your Honor. Did the court 16 misspeak? I thought 2075 and 2075 S were the exhibits. I 17 believe your Honor said 2070. 18 THE COURT: I did. Thank you. I did misspeak. It 19 was Government Exhibits 2075 and Government Exhibit 2075 S 20 received in evidence. Thank you. Not 2070. All right. 21 MR. MORVILLO: At this time, your Honor, the 22 government would request permission to read and publish to the 23 jury Government Exhibit 1059 X, which for the record is a 24 transcript excerpt of a telephone call on February 7th, 2000, 25 at 1:57:50 pm. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4488 486JSAT2 1 May I ask Mr. Forkner to come forward? 2 THE COURT: Yes. It is Government Exhibit 1059 X in 3 evidence? 4 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, it is, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. MORVILLO: May we publish it to the jury, your 7 Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1059 X was 10 displayed and read) 11 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time with your 12 permission we would like to read to the jury and display to 13 them Government Exhibits 1060 X and 1061 X, which are excerpted 14 transcripts of a conversation that starts at 1060 X and 15 continues on to Government Exhibit 1061 X, which occurred on 16 February 12th, 2000, starting 3:05 pm. I would read the parts 17 of Mr. Hamza, unidentified male, and Mr. Forkner will, of 18 course, read the part of Mr. Sattar. 19 May I display it for the jury? 20 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 1060 X and 1061 X in 21 evidence? 22 MR. DEMBER: They are, your Honor. . 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. DEMBER: May we display it on the screen, your 25 Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4489 486JSAT2 1 THE COURT: Yes. Take a moment. 2 (Pause) 3 THE COURT: Do you need five minutes? 4 MR. BARKOW: I think we might, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll just take a 6 five-minute break. Please remember my continuing instructions 7 not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 8 (Jury excused) 9 THE COURT: Maybe you should use the opportunity to 10 make sure that if there are any other exhibits before the 11 luncheon break, that they're queued up. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I think we just fixed it. It 13 was a computer issue. It wasn't that the exhibit wasn't ready. 14 The computer had locked up. 15 THE COURT: All right. I just sent the jury out. 16 They'll take a break. Take five minutes. It will just be five 17 minutes. 18 (Recess) 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4490 48GLSAT3 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Are we ready? 3 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 4 MR. STERN: Yes, your Honor, just one moment. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 (Pause in proceedings) 7 THE COURT: Are we ready? Okay. Let's bring in the 8 jury. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4491 48GLSAT3 1 (In open court) 2 (Jury entering courtroom) 3 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 4 Mr. Dember? 5 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor. At this time -- first, 6 may Mr. Forkner return to the witness stand? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. DEMBER: And may we display to the jury Government 9 Exhibit 1060X? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1060X, continued, 12 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury). 13 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may at this time we play and 14 read the continuation of the call, which is Government 15 Exhibit 1061X, and display that on the transcript for the jury? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1061X, in evidence, 18 was displayed and read to the jury) 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we'd ask 20 Mr. Forkner to step down and we'd call the witness Miss Nabila 21 Banout. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 DEPUTY CLERK: You may be seated, Miss Banout. Miss 24 Banout, having been previously sworn, you are reminded you're 25 still under oath. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4492 48GLSAT3 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry? You understand that? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Barkow, you may proceed. 5 MR. BARKOW: Thank you, your Honor. 6 NABILA BANOUT, 7 called as a witness by the Government, 8 having been previously sworn, testified as follows: 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. BARKOW: 11 Q. Good afternoon. Miss Banout, you're a language specialist 12 with the FBI, yes? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You testified a few weeks ago, back on July 13th; is that 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, based on Miss Banout's prior 18 testimony, we offer her as an expert in the area of Arabic to 19 English translation. 20 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow that. 21 BY MR. BARKOW: 22 Q. Miss Banout, I'd like to ask you a few brief questions 23 about one thing you talked about last time. Approximately how 24 long have you been working on this case? 25 A. About eight years. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4493 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. And can you estimate roughly the number of calls, possibly, 2 that you've listened to in connection with this case? 3 A. Thousands. 4 Q. I'm sorry? 5 A. Thousands. 6 Q. Thousands? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. In the course of listening to these thousands of calls, 9 have you learned whether Ahmed Abdel Sattar often uses any 10 other names? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What name or names? 13 A. He uses the name Abu Omar. 14 Q. And what does that mean? 15 A. It's part of the culture there to be named with your son. 16 "Abu" means father. Abu Omar: Father of Omar. 17 Q. In the course of listening to these calls, have you learned 18 whether Rifa'i Ahmad Taha often uses other names? 19 A. Yes, he does. 20 Q. What name or names? 21 A. The name Abu Yasir, and the name Al-Asmar. 22 Q. Could you please spell Abu Yasir? 23 A. Two words. Abu is A-b-u, and then Yasir, Y-a-s-i-r. 24 Q. The second name? 25 A. Yes? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4494 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. Spell that, please? 2 A. A-l, hyphen, A-s-m-a-r. 3 Q. Miss Banout, turning to a different subject -- may I 4 approach, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Most Banout, I'm placing before you what I've marked for 7 identification as Government Exhibit 1300NB. Could you take a 8 look at that and tell us whether you recognize it? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. And make sure you speak into the microphone. 11 A. Yes, I do. 12 Q. What is it? 13 A. It's the DVD with the calls. 14 Q. And how were you able to recognize it? 15 A. With my initials and dates on it. 16 Q. And did you actually listen to calls on this DVD? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did you translate them? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. I'd like to place before you what I've marked for 21 identification as Government Exhibits 1065T, 1066T, 1068T, 22 1070T, 1075T, 1078T, 1083T and 1164T. And I'm going to ask 23 you, if you could, to please look through those exhibits that 24 I've placed before you and look up when you're done. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4495 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. Have you looked through those transcripts? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Do you recognize them? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What are they? 6 A. They are translations of calls that I did. 7 Q. And where were those calls found? Did you listen to the 8 calls? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where were the calls when you listened to them? 11 A. On the DVD. 12 Q. Is it the DVD in front of you, 1300NB? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And previously you testified about the file-naming system 15 and the naming system associated with the calls on DVDs and on 16 transcripts? Do you recall that? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. With respect to Government Exhibit 1300NB and with respect 19 to the transcripts that you have in front of you that you just 20 looked through, was the same naming system employed? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So do the file names on the transcripts in front of you 23 correspond with file names on Government Exhibit 1300NB, the 24 DVD? 25 A. They do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4496 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. Are the transcripts translations by you from Arabic into 2 English of the calls on the DVD? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And are the translations contained in those transcripts 5 fair and accurate translations from Arabic into English of the 6 corresponding calls on the DVD? 7 A. Yes, to the best of my ability. 8 Q. Now, Ms. Banout, where do you and where did you do this 9 translation work? Where were you located physically? 10 A. In the office. 11 Q. Where is your office? 12 A. Javitz Plaza, 24th Floor. 13 Q. And that's just across the street? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Could you describe generally what your office is like, what 16 the space is like? 17 A. Our office space is a big hall with cubicles divided with 18 each one of us sitting in a cubicle with equipment doing our 19 work. 20 Q. Do you have a cubicle? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is it your own cubicle or do you share? 23 A. It's my own. 24 Q. And is that where you did the translation work? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4497 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. And when you were doing the translation work, how were you 2 listening to the call? What kind of -- were you listening to 3 it through speakers or headphones or some other way? 4 A. Headphones. 5 Q. What kind of headphones? What do they look like? 6 A. The headphones are designed in a way that they fit on the 7 ears and they block outside noise, and they concentrate on the 8 noise you get off your computer. 9 Q. Do they stick in your ears or do they cover your ears? 10 A. They cover the ears. 11 Q. And when you're listening to things through these 12 headphones, can you hear what's going on in the room outside? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Now, when you did this translation work, how many times did 15 you or would you listen to the calls as you did the work? 16 A. Can you -- 17 Q. Actually, let me move onto something else. I'll come back 18 to that. 19 Ms. Banout -- may I approach, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. Ms. Banout, I'm going to show you and put before you what's 22 been admitted into evidence as Government Exhibit 1700C, 1701C, 23 1702C, 1704C and 1705C and ask you to take a look at those. 24 Have you looked at those? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4498 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. And do you recognize them? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What are they? 4 A. They are DVDs of a prison visit made on February 19. 5 Q. And did you do translation work with respect to these DVDs? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, I'd like to place before you what I've marked for 8 identification as Government Exhibits 1700TA, 1701TA and 9 1702TA. And, Ms. Banout, if you could, could you please take a 10 look at those three exhibits and look up when you're done? 11 A. (The witness complies) 12 Q. Ms. Banout, have you looked through all those transcript 13 pages? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And do you recognize those transcripts? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What are they? 18 A. They are the translations of the DVDs of the prison visit 19 made on February 19. 20 Q. And did you make those transcripts? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How are you able to recognize them as your work? 23 A. With my initials on each. 24 Q. And are those transcripts, those translations, true and 25 accurate translations of the Arabic portions, from Arabic into SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4499 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 English? 2 A. Yes, to the best of my ability. 3 Q. Where did you do that translation work? Where were you? 4 A. The office. 5 Q. The same office you've described? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In the same cubicle? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Using the same headphones? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And when you made there -- these transcripts, did you 12 listen to the prison visits one time or did you go back and 13 listen to it again or parts again? How did you do that? 14 A. No, we had to play it back and forth several times. 15 Sometimes the voices are not very clear. 16 Q. And did you -- is that same thing true for the intercepted 17 calls that you've testified about as well? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, Ms. Banout, if you could, you've got in front of you 20 1701TA? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you turn to Page 36, Line 17? 23 A. The number of the page again, please? 24 Q. Page 36. Look at Line 17. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4500 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 Q. On that line, you have the word or the phrase Al-Gama'a 2 Al-Islamiyya. Do you see that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Could you tell us and tell the jury what that phrase means 5 in English? 6 A. Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya is Islamic Group. 7 Q. How do you pronounce it in Arabic? 8 A. Al-Gama'a Al-Islamiyya. 9 Q. Could you spell that, please? 10 A. A-l, hyphen, G-a-m-a, apostrophe, a. 11 Al-Islamiyya is A-l, hyphen, I-s-l-a-m-i-y-y-a. 12 Q. Is that the only way to spell that phrase or are there 13 others -- 14 A. No it can be spelled many different ways. 15 Q. Can you explain? 16 A. Yes ex- because when you say it slang it is different than 17 whether it is said in the official language. You can say 18 Al-Islamiyya with an "a-l" or "e-l". That's very possible. 19 You can spell it with one "y" or double "y", if you want to be 20 very accurate. All of them refer to the same thing. 21 Q. And what about the first word in that phrase, Al Gama'a? 22 Is there more than one way to spell Gama'a? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Could you tell us about that? 25 A. You can spell it "E-l G-a-m-a" and stop. Or you can say SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4501 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 A-l, hyphen G-a-m, apostrophe, a, if you want to be very 2 accurate. 3 Q. What about the G-a-m-a part? Is there more than one way to 4 spell the Gama'a part of the word? 5 A. Yes. In some cases it can be spelled with a "j" instead of 6 a "g". But it all pronounces the same way. 7 Q. What about the end of the word Gama'a? Is there ever any 8 difference with respect to what the last letter is? 9 A. Yes. If you are speaking the official language, you can 10 say Al Gama'at Islamiyya, so you have a "T". But usually this 11 "T" is dropped when you are speaking the slang language. 12 Q. And just to be clear, when you say the official language, 13 what do you mean by that? 14 A. When you write it in books. 15 Q. And when you say slang, what do you mean by that? 16 A. The spoken, street language. 17 Q. And when you're talking about this "T", where does that go 18 in the word Gama'a or Gama'at? 19 A. At the end of the word. 20 Q. What does the phrase or word Al Gama'a or Al Gama'at mean? 21 A. Al Gama'a is The Islamic Group. 22 Q. Specifically, the Al Gama'a or Al Gama'at part, what does 23 that mean? 24 A. It just says Al. Al is "the". 25 Q. Right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4502 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 A. So Al-Gama'a is "the". The Islamiyya: The Islamic Group. 2 Q. The Gama'a is group, and Islamiyya is Islamic? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How many times did you listen to that particular part of 5 this prison visit in making this particular part of the 6 transcript? 7 A. I can't be very specific about the number of times, but it 8 comes frequently during visits and phone calls. 9 Q. I'm talking about this specific part of this specific 10 visit. How many times, approximately, did you listen to that 11 specific part of this specific visit? 12 THE COURT: Are you directing her to answer to a 13 specific reference? 14 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. Page 36, Line 17, where 15 it says Al-Gama'a. 16 A. Oh, that was only once. On Page 36? 17 Q. Yes. 18 A. That's once. 19 Q. Where did you do that listening? 20 A. In our office. 21 Q. In the same space, cubicle, you just described? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. With the same headphones? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. May I have just a moment, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4503 48GLSAT3 Banout - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 (Off the record) 3 BY MR. BARKOW: 4 Q. Ms. Banout, just to be clear, how many times did you listen 5 to the prison visit in that particular part? 6 A. Oh, I listened to it over and over and over, to be sure I 7 heard the tracks. 8 Q. Did you listen to the whole thing over and over, particular 9 parts over and over, or both? 10 A. To this particular part. 11 MR. BARKOW: I have nothing further at this point, 12 your Honor. 13 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar, you may proceed. 17 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. TIGAR: 20 Q. Ms. Banout, I want to ask you about this method or 21 technique that you used for translating the telephone calls. 22 Not the prison visits. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. You said you've been working on these calls for the last 25 eight years? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4504 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 A. About, yes. 2 Q. And did it happen while you were making translations for 3 use in this trial that you would hear a phone call that you had 4 heard before in the initial stages of the investigation? 5 A. Can you please say that again? 6 Q. Yes. Did it happen, when you were doing translations of 7 the calls for use in this trial? 8 A. Uh-huh. 9 Q. Did you sometimes hear a call that you'd already heard 10 early in the investigation? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And when you heard those calls earlier in the 13 investigation, you were not listening to them on that DVD, were 14 you? 15 A. It's the same calls. 16 Q. I understand it's the same calls, but they were on a 17 different format, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And that earlier format would be what, a magneto optical 20 disk? 21 A. Well, we had a system called double-decker. That's -- you 22 listen to it on the computer. And then we switched to another 23 system called Spidermat where you listen to it on a different 24 computer system. But it's the same, I would say, the same 25 audio quality. And then we put them on DVDs when we came to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4505 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 this trial. 2 Q. You were not in charge of choosing which computer system 3 was used, correct? 4 A. No. 5 Q. During the time beginning about, oh, spring of 2002, after 6 the indictment in this case, did you work with Mr. Scott Kerns 7 in the translations? 8 A. Mr. Scott Kerns is in charge of the technical side of the 9 shop, of the recordings. He does not work on translations at 10 all. The translation is my job. 11 Q. When you're doing a translation, there are times when in 12 the translation you put UI for unintelligible, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Along that means that in your expert opinion, you can't 15 figure out just what's being said, correct? 16 A. Exactly. 17 Q. Now, are some of the unintelligibles caused by people 18 dropping their voice so that you can't hear just what's being 19 said? 20 A. Sometimes. And sometimes the voice fades away a little 21 bit. Sometimes people talk simultaneously. And sometimes they 22 just mumble or speak too fast where you can't really hear 23 what's being said. 24 Q. On the Arabic language, I want to ask you some questions, 25 but I don't speak that language. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4506 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 A. Okay, I understand. 2 Q. I want to ask you the Arabic word for lawyer? 3 A. I'm sorry? 4 Q. The Arabic word for lawyer? 5 A. Lawyer? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Muhami. 8 Q. Muhami? 9 A. No. Muhami. Muhami. 10 Q. I'm not going to try to pronounce it. 11 A. That's fine. 12 Q. But Arabic is a language in which the nouns have gender, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 THE COURT: Could I just stop you for a moment? Could 16 you spell it for the court reporter, please? 17 THE WITNESS: Spell the word? 18 THE COURT: Spell the word for the court reporter. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. If I'm to spell the word Muhami 20 in Arabic is M-u-h-a-m-i. Muhami. And I'm saying "h" because 21 the word Muhami in Arabic includes a letter that doesn't exist 22 in English, the letter "HA" (phonetic). No one can spell that. 23 So it's Muhami, M-u-h-a-m-i, and we are using "h" instead of -- 24 it's the closest to the Arabic letter "HA". 25 Q. Arabic writing is not in what we would call the Roman SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4507 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 alphabet, correct? 2 A. Exactly. 3 Q. I mean, there are other languages that have their own 4 alphabet such as Russian, the Cyrillic alphabet, and Greek, so 5 on, correct? 6 A. That's right. 7 Q. So when you spell it for the court reporter, you are 8 transliterating, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, we've got this word which is in the masculine gender, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And what is the feminine gender of that? 14 A. Muhamiya. 15 Q. Would you spell that for the court reporter, please? 16 A. Yes, it's M-u-h-a-m-i-y-a. Sometimes you can say "yh", 17 Muhamiyh. Muhamiya. 18 Q. Now, looking at these two transliterations, the difference 19 is that the female letter has the "ya" at the end? 20 A. Exactly. 21 Q. And so that if you were listening to someone and the last 22 syllable dropped out or became unintelligible, a person 23 listening would not know whether it was a male lawyer or a 24 female lawyer being referred to, correct? 25 A. But how can the last syllable be dropped? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4508 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 Q. Pardon? 2 A. How can it be dropped? 3 Q. If it was unintelligible, if a syllable was unintelligible, 4 if the "ya" syllable as unintelligible, there could be a 5 similarity between the first word you gave me and the second 6 word you gave me, correct? 7 A. Correct. 8 Q. And there are other Arabic words that have the "muha", the 9 first part, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The name Muhammed, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And there are others, right? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. And there are others as well, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, to give another example, the syllable "Sir", Which you 18 could render, I guess, s-i-r, that's a part of several 19 different names by which people are known in the Arab-speaking 20 word, correct? Yasir, Montasser, Nasser, and so on? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. So that if we were listening to somebody saying somebody's 23 name and the name were one such as Yasir, Montasser, Nasser, 24 and a part of that, the first part of any of the names, was 25 unintelligible, we would -- you might have some confusion in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4509 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 the listening to who's being referred to, correct? 2 A. If you have -- like say I'm listening now to something I'm 3 translating. 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. And I get half the word, not all of it, I get half the 6 word, unless I'm 100 percent sure what is the referral to, I 7 never take a chance and put it in. For names especially, 8 because they constitute a very -- like you have to be very 9 accurate putting a name. It may change the personality 10 completely. So unless you are very sure of the name you hear, 11 it's never on paper. 12 If I am halfway sure, I either listen to it over and 13 over again until I'm sure, or consult with somebody else who 14 can verify or assure me of what I'm hearing. 15 Q. Listening to and translating a telephone conversation -- 16 A. Uh-huh. 17 Q. -- on a DVD is different from translating from a written 18 document where you have every word, correct? 19 A. Certainly, yes. 20 Q. And so one of the things that -- when we look at the 21 translations that you do, and we look and see an 22 unintelligible, we know that that's a place where you as an 23 expert decided you're not sure what it is and therefore you 24 weren't going to take a chance, correct? 25 A. Exactly. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4510 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 Q. Now, a moment ago, you said that another thing you might do 2 is talk to somebody else when you have an unintelligible. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Did that occur during your work in this case, that you 5 would need or feel that you should as an expert talk to someone 6 else? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And to whom would you talk when you would want to discuss 9 this? 10 A. To my colleague who translates the same thing as I do. 11 Q. And is that the other translator that also worked on this 12 case, whose initials we see here? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In addition to the unintelligibles that you heard, did you 15 also come across technical problems during your attempt to hear 16 some of the calls in the case? 17 A. Yes, sometimes. 18 Q. Now, with whom would you discuss the technical problems? 19 A. Well, technical problems are not discussed with anybody. 20 Technical problems are put on paper as technical problems in 21 brackets and reported to the technical side of the area. We 22 have a special squad that takes care of it, so we fill out a 23 form that says we have technical problems in this area and they 24 either fix it or decide what to do about it. 25 Q. Now, in your work in preparation for this case, did you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4511 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 fill out some of these forms that say technical problems? 2 A. In the calls, yes. 3 Q. In the calls, yes. I'm not -- all of my questions I'm 4 asking are about the calls, not the prison visits. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So -- and to whom -- when you have the technical problems 7 of which you've spoken, who would get that piece of paper, the 8 report? 9 A. It's called SO1, squad SO1. 10 Q. Squad SO1. Is that Mr. Kerns' squad? 11 A. I'm not sure it's Mr. Kerns, because there are so many 12 personnel over there. 13 Q. You know Mr. Kerns, right? 14 A. Yes, of course, right. 15 Q. Tall, slender fellow? 16 A. Yes, I know him. 17 Q. Looks like he used to be a marine. But do you recall 18 giving him any of your technical problem reports? 19 A. The technical problem reports go to my squad. 20 Q. When you were doing the translations of the calls that were 21 destined to be trial exhibits in this case, did you ever look 22 back at the -- any earlier drafts of translations that you had 23 done? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And did you -- were some of these translations done by SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4512 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 others as well? Did you have access to other people's work so 2 that you could look at it and compare? 3 A. Basically, it's -- for this trial, it's myself and the 4 other colleague, Victoria, who came here before. 5 Q. So it would be the work of the two of you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You have confidence as you sit there, she's as much an 8 expert in the Arabic language as you are, correct? 9 A. Yes, she is. 10 MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, Miss Banout. 11 THE WITNESS: You're very welcome. 12 MR. TIGAR: I have no further questions. 13 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Barkow? 14 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a second? 15 (Off the record) 16 MR. BARKOW: We have no further questions, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Banout, you're excused. 18 You may step down. 19 MR. BARKOW: May I retrieve those exhibits? 20 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 21 All right. Government? 22 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time the government 23 calls to the stand Sally Hassanein. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 (Witness sworn) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4513 48GLSAT3 Banout - cross 1 DEPUTY CLERK: Please state your name and spell it 2 spell slowly for the record. 3 THE WITNESS: Sally Hassanein, H-a-s-s-a-n-e-i-n. 4 DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you. 5 MR. DEMBER: May I inquire? 6 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, you may inquire. 7 SALLY HASSANEIN, 8 called as a witness by the Government, 9 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. DEMBER: 12 Q. Miss Hassanein, would you tell us by whom you are employed? 13 A. U.S. Attorney's Office. 14 Q. And are you actually paid by the U.S. Attorney's Office or 15 do you work for a company? 16 A. I work for CSC, computer signs corporation. 17 Q. And what kind of company -- 18 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry, your Honor. May the witness be 19 asked to speak up a little bit? 20 THE COURT: Yes. Sure. Please talk into the 21 microphone please. 22 Q. You work for a company? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And what's the name of your company? 25 A. CSC. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4514 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 Q. What kind of company is it? 2 A. It's a contracting company for the government, a government 3 contracting company. 4 Q. And have you been contracted out to a particular government 5 agency? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What agency is that? 8 A. Department of Justice. 9 Q. Is that the United States Attorney's Office? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And are you currently working there? 12 A. Yes, I am. 13 Q. How long have you worked for the United States Attorney's 14 Office? 15 A. Five and a half years. 16 Q. What kind of work do you do for the United States 17 Attorney's Office? 18 A. I'm a paralegal. 19 Q. Have you had any special training to become a paralegal? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What is that? 22 A. I have a paralegal certificate. 23 Q. Where is that from? 24 A. Hofstra University. 25 Q. Now, Miss Hassanein, did you have occasion to do some work SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4515 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 on this particular case? 2 A. Yes, I have. 3 Q. And among the things that you've done for this case, have 4 you been asked to work on transcripts of recordings of this 5 case? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 BY MR. DEMBER: 10 Q. Miss Hassanein, I'm going to show you or hand up to you a 11 number of documents and exhibits. The documents are marked 12 Government Exhibits 1700T, 1701T and 1702T; and the exhibits 13 are 1700C, 1701C, 1702C, 1704C, 1705C. Why don't you take a 14 moment and just take a look at those exhibits. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Did you do some work with respect to this case involving 17 those DVDs which I've just handed to you as well as the three 18 documents I handed up? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What kind of work did you do on those? 21 A. I reviewed the English transcriptions from the DVDs and 22 transcripts. 23 Q. Did you listen to the DVDs themselves? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And was there some English language conversation on those SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4516 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 DVDs? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was there also conversation on those DVDs in a foreign 4 language? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What was your job to do with respect to them and the 7 transcripts? 8 A. To review the English. 9 Q. Only the English portions? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And were you to assist in the preparation of transcripts of 12 the English portion of those DVDs? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Did you do that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Would you describe for us how you did that? 17 A. I would -- on my computer, put in the DVD and listen to it 18 with headphones, and also have on my computer the transcript. 19 And I would listen and make sure it's accurate and if there's 20 any changes, I would make the changes to the English portion. 21 Q. On the transcripts themselves? 22 A. On the transcripts themselves. 23 Q. Where -- did you do that at your work station? 24 A. Yes, in the office. 25 Q. Describe what your work station looks like? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4517 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 A. It's a cubicle. 2 Q. And the time that you reviewed those DVDs and the 3 transcripts, which are before you, were you able to do so in a 4 quiet environment? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you used headphones, is that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. How often did you or how many times did you listen to the 9 various English portions of those DVDs in preparing the 10 transcripts that are before you? 11 A. Numerous times. 12 Q. Did you review certain sections even more than other 13 sections? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What would that depend on? 16 A. It would depend on the clarity of the recording. You know, 17 I need to do double or triple check on a certain word or 18 phrase. 19 Q. The three transcripts I've handed you, which are 1700T, 20 1701T and 1702T, did you help prepare those transcripts? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How can you tell it was you that prepared them? 23 A. I initialed them. 24 Q. You initialed the first page of each of those transcripts? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4518 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 Q. And are those transcripts, Miss Hassanein, fair and 2 accurate transcriptions of the English -- do they contain fair 3 and accurate transcriptions of the English portions of the 4 recordings that are found on the five DVDs that are in front of 5 you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you -- withdrawn. 8 Let me ask you to take a look at the transcript which 9 is marked Government Exhibit 1701T. Pull that out in front of 10 you. Would you turn to Page 36, Line 17 of that particular 11 transcript. Do you have that in front of you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you see Line 17? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And did you review that particular section, the Line 17, 16 the few lines above that, a number of times? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And what did you hear when you were listening to Line 17 on 19 that particular section of the DVDs that corresponded to 20 Line 17 on Page 36? 21 A. Just that line? 22 Q. Yes. 23 A. Al Gama'a. 24 Q. By the way, Miss Hassanein, do you speak any other language 25 besides English? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4519 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 A. Yes. I speak Arabic. 2 Q. And where were you born? 3 A. I was born in Libya. 4 Q. Are you Libyan or -- 5 A. No. 6 Q. What were your parents? 7 A. Egyptian. 8 Q. Did you ever live in Egypt? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. For how long a period of time? 11 A. Three years. 12 Q. And when did you come to the United States? 13 A. When I was four years old. 14 Q. Did you speak Arabic at home? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You consider yourself to be fluent in Arabic? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. As well as English? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, let me refer back to the section of Government 21 Exhibit 1701T, the transcript that's been marked for 22 identification, 1701T. The portion where you saw the words 23 Al Gama'at Al-Islamiyya. Is that part of a sentence? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And are the other words in that sentence in Arabic or are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4520 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 they in English? 2 A. They're all in English. 3 Q. Except for the words Al Gama'at Al-Islamiyya? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Those are Arabic words? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you know what those words mean in Arabic? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What do they mean in English, if you translate them? 10 A. Islamic Group. 11 Q. Miss Hassanein, when you listened to the DVD that 12 corresponded to that portion of the transcript, did you have 13 any difficulty hearing the words Al Gama'at Al-Islamiyya? 14 A. No. 15 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 (Off the record) 18 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I have no further questions 19 at this time. 20 MR. TIGAR: I have brief cross-examination, your 21 Honor. Shall I do it now or after lunch? 22 THE COURT: Why don't we do it now and -- if you wish. 23 I mean -- 24 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor, I understand that there's 25 a scheduling issue, and using time efficiently -- I just didn't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4521 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - direct 1 want to unnecessarily delay. 2 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. TIGAR: 4 Q. Could you remind me again how to pronounce your name? 5 A. Hassanein. 6 Q. Hassanein? Miss Hassanein, you told us that you would 7 review transcripts that had been prepared of the English 8 language portions of the DVDs. Is that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, who prepared the initial transcript that was on your 11 computer for you to review? 12 A. I'm not sure. 13 Q. When you began your review process, you'd had a DVD, 14 correct, that you could load into the little slot where the DVD 15 goes, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you could call up on the screen a document that was a 18 transcript, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That was a draft transcript? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And on your machine, you would listen, and what would 23 happen if you decided that you disagreed with something in the 24 transcript? 25 A. Well, I had saved a copy of the transcript and I would work SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4522 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - cross 1 from a duplicate copy of that transcript. The original 2 transcript I believe was done by the translator, but my 3 corrections would be on the copy. So it would still be -- the 4 original one would still be intact and then it would be 5 reviewed. 6 Q. Who gave you the transcript file that you were supposed to 7 work from? 8 A. The attorneys that I was working with. 9 Q. And did they tell you what it was? 10 A. I don't understand. 11 Q. Well, did they say: This is a draft transcript, or, This 12 is a transcript we're working on? What did they tell you about 13 what the task was you were about to do? 14 A. They will give me a DVD and they would give me the 15 transcript. And they would say: This is a transcript of this 16 DVD. And I would listen to the DVD in its entirety with the 17 transcript, and I would review it. 18 Q. And with respect specifically to 1701, who told you, in 19 words or substance: This is a transcript? 20 A. Who told me that? 21 Q. Yes. You said someone told you this is a transcript. I'm 22 just asking you who that was? 23 A. Which attorney? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. Robin Baker? You want to pick one. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4523 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - cross 1 Q. I don't want to pick one. I'm asking you if you remember. 2 A. Well, I mean, I discussed it with each one of them, so 3 Robin Baker, Chris Morvillo, Tony -- 4 Q. I'm sorry. Just as you sit there today, do you remember 5 which attorney gave you the transcript of what is 1701 and 6 said, in words or substance: This is the transcript? 7 A. Robin Baker. 8 Q. Thank you. No further questions. 9 MR. DEMBER: Just one thing, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. DEMBER: 13 Q. Miss Hassanein, just to be clear, did you work at all on 14 the Arabic portions of the transcript or only the English 15 portions? 16 A. Only the English. 17 MR. DEMBER: Okay. Nothing further. 18 THE COURT: All right. Anything further? If not, the 19 witness is excused. You may step down. 20 All right. I think we'll break for lunch now. No? 21 Let's continue. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the next government offer 23 is a 220-page transcript of the excerpted prison visit which 24 would come in under a stipulation. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4524 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - redirect 1 MR. MORVILLO: We can begin to read that if your Honor 2 would like. 3 THE COURT: All right. There's a stipulation? 4 MR. MORVILLO: Yes. May I go to the podium? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I read to the jury 7 Government Exhibit 1700S, which is the stipulation? 8 THE COURT: Yes. Government Exhibit 1700S, and you're 9 offering the stipulation into evidence? 10 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. No objections. Government 12 Exhibit 1700S received in evidence. 13 (Government's Exhibit 1700S received in evidence) 14 THE COURT: You may read it. 15 MR. MORVILLO: May I publish it to the jury as I read 16 it, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1700S, in evidence, 19 was displayed and read to the jury) 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. MORVILLO: At this time, your Honor, the 22 government will offer into evidence Government Exhibits 1700X, 23 1701X and 1702X, pursuant to the stipulation. 24 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 1700X, 25 1701X and 1702X are received in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4525 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - redirect 1 (Government's Exhibits 1700X, 1701X, 1702X received in 2 evidence) 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would you like us to begin 4 reading Government Exhibit 1700X at this time? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may we also ask that 7 Mr. Bove come forward and take the witness seat and read the 8 attributions to Mohammed Yousry? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, as we read, may we publish 11 this to the jury? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. MORVILLO: The Court's permission, may I also move 14 this podium? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, before they start, as with 17 other examinations of this kind of evidence, this is subject to 18 connection. I'm asking -- 19 MR. MORVILLO: That's correct. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 21 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1700X 22 received subject to connection. 23 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, the header of 1700X 24 reads: Visit to Minnesota. Date, February 19, 2000. 25 Videotape 1. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4526 48GLSAT3 Hassanein - redirect 1 Participants: Abdel Rahman equals Omar Abdel Rahman. 2 Yousry equals Mohammed Yousry. Jabara equals Abdeen Jabara. 3 UF equals unidentified female. 4 I will read the attributions to Mr. Jabara. 5 Mr. Barkow will read the attributions to Omar Abdel Rahman. 6 And Mr. Bove will read the attributions to Mohammed Yousry. 7 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1700X, in evidence, 8 was displayed and read to the jury) 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4527 48GJSAT4 1 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1700 X was displayed 2 and read) 3 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I am not sure if you want us 4 to keep going. This is a breakpoint in the change of subject, 5 but we can continue. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher isn't here at the moment, 7 so... 8 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1700 X was displayed 9 and read) 10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fletcher indicates that 11 the jurors' lunches are ready. We'll break for now, and you 12 we'll go back to where you suggested. 13 Ladies and gentlemen, have a very good lunch. Please 14 continue to observe my continuing instructions not to talk 15 about the case at all, please don't talk about the case. 16 Always remember to keep an open mind after you've heard all of 17 the evidence, I've instructed you on the law and you have gone 18 to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and 19 justice requires that you do that. All rise, please. 20 We'll resume at 2:30. Have a good lunch. 21 (Jury excused) 22 THE COURT: All right, yes, please have a seat. 23 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I wanted to be sure that the 24 DVDs for the 1701, et cetera, transcripts are in evidence or 25 are going to be in evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4528 48GJSAT4 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I thought I had offered them 2 this morning, I thought, and the court received them. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Is Mr. Tigar referring to redacted? 4 MR. TIGAR: Yes, the redacted versions. 5 MR. MORVILLO: The DVD that would correspond to the 6 transcripts? 7 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: No. I think the only offer, frankly, and 9 you can correct me if I am wrong as to what the transcript 10 would reflect, but I thought I received 1700 X, 1701 X and 1702 11 X received in evidence, and then there was a question later 12 with respect to 1700 X, and there was an agreement received 13 subject to connection. I don't think the transcripts, while 14 they -- and I received 1700 S in evidence, but I don't think 15 the transcripts reflect that. 16 MR. MORVILLO: That was the purpose of the 17 stipulation, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: I know that. 19 MR. TIGAR: The transcripts were offered, as I 20 understand I, the transcripts are in evidence. Is that 21 Mr. Morvillo's understanding snow? 22 MR. MORVILLO: The transcripts are in evidence. I 23 believe you received them, and the X's, not the T or TA. The 24 X's are the excerpts from T and TA. 25 THE COURT: Right. Okay. I thought the transcripts SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4529 48GJSAT4 1 were marked T's and that the X's were the underlining -- 2 MR. MORVILLO: Underlying. 3 THE COURT: -- Underlying tapes themselves. 4 MR. MORVILLO: No. I am sorry, your Honor. The X's 5 are the excerpted transcripts. 6 THE COURT: Those are certainly -- I received those, 7 1700 X, 17 -- 8 MR. TIGAR: That's right. The reason the T's existed, 9 your Honor, was that Ms. Banout worked on the T's but not the 10 X's. The X's weren't certain, so the government did what it 11 did. My request is that at some early point, the government 12 offer the underlying DVDs in evidence, which I think is its 13 intention? 14 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, that's correct, your Honor. 15 We did not prepare for the February visit a redacted 16 portion, a redacted DVD to correspond to the excerpted 17 transcript, Based on an agreement with the defense that the 18 spoken English in the underlying recordings would come into 19 evidence through the transcripts, so that we wouldn't have to 20 play the entirety of the February visit. That was the purpose 21 of the last paragraph of the stipulation 1700 S. 22 So the offer, to be precise, of the 1700 series DVDs 23 would only be to the extent that they consider the 24 corresponding with the excerpted transcripts, 1700 X, 1701 X 25 and 1702 X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4530 48GJSAT4 1 MR. TIGAR: My understanding of the stipulation, your 2 Honor, is that we did agree exceptionally that the English 3 transcripts could be in evidence, which would be an exception 4 from the rule. That did not, however, deal with this issue of 5 whether the underlying DVDs that the jurors can actually hear, 6 so they can hear the English if there is a problem, would be in 7 evidence. If the government is not going to offer to that, we 8 will take steps to do so. 9 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I may be confused, but the 10 first thing we did this morning before the jury, I offered the 11 DVD. I thought the court received them. Our live note isn't 12 working, so we can't check the transcripts, but my handwritten 13 notes reflect that. 14 THE COURT: Hold on. You're right, the first thing I 15 believe I admitted in evidence, 1700 C, 1701 C, 1702 -- I have 16 to go back and look also, but there was a whole series of 1700. 17 MR. TIGAR: Those are the DVDs. 18 MR. BARKOW: Yes. 19 MR. TIGAR: Thank you, your Honor. That helps. 20 The second subject. Ms. Banout testified that there 21 was a practice of preparing technical problem reports during 22 the course of preparing transcripts for use in this case and 23 that those were routinely prepared and routinely provided to 24 SOI, which I believe to be the unit of which Mr. Kerns is a 25 part. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4531 48GJSAT4 1 We moved for the production of all technical problem 2 reports related to surveillances that were conducted in 3 connection with this investigation. Should the court regard 4 that as unduly burdensome and broad, it being our position that 5 admissibility, authenticity is a global thing. 6 Should the court regard it as unduly broad, then our 7 alternative request is that they produce the technical problem 8 reports with respect to any and all telephone or other 9 electronic surveillances that were or will be offered at trial. 10 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I am not sure if the court 11 wants to address this now, but, first, I don't believe that is 12 what Ms. Banout said. 13 I think what she said in response to a question on 14 cross-examination in substance was that when there was a 15 technical problem, she sent a report to the technical unit to 16 notify them of its existence, which is not the -- I don't know 17 exactly -- in any event, that may have been what Mr. Tigar 18 said. 19 I think that is what she said. She said it on 20 cross-examination, not on direct examination. Therefore, I 21 don't think it falls within 3500 because what she testified to 22 the first time, which is the only time she actually spoke about 23 technical problems on direct, was only that she included 24 technical problem in the transcript when she heard a technical 25 problem, and that's what she did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4532 48GJSAT4 1 So the 3500 material with respect to that particular 2 issue would be the transcripts which have been produced in 3 full. The testimony at this point on cross-examination was 4 only that she notified someone of the existence of the 5 technical problem so that they could do what they do, not that 6 it's in any way affected or impacted what she was doing with 7 respect to translation, which is the subject matter of her 8 testimony. It was just a mechanism by which she told someone 9 that it existed. That would be Point 1. 10 Secondly, with respect to Rule 16, I don't see that 11 this is at all material to the defense. The technical problem 12 notations in the transcripts are noted where they occur. The 13 ministerial task of telling someone that it existed has nothing 14 to do with the issues in this case and has nothing to do with 15 anything material to the guilt or innocence of the defendants. 16 It is just a way by which Ms. Banout would have informed 17 someone she couldn't hear a particular portion because of a 18 technical problem. 19 All instances of that are reflected in her 20 transcripts; and, therefore, there is full disclosure of the 21 existence of where those would be. We certainly can inquire to 22 see whether those records still exist, but I actually don't 23 think we should have to do that. 24 THE COURT: Yes, in part, because I do understand what 25 the law is and what the cases provide. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4533 48GJSAT4 1 I don't understand from simply a practical standpoint 2 why you would not inquire with respect to a specific request 3 with respect to these specific calls. 4 I am not addressing myself to 85,000 calls over a long 5 period of time. I am addressing myself to the calls that this 6 witness testified to and whether there are technical reports 7 that this witness made with respect to those calls that she 8 translated, which is a very limited universe. 9 If you come back and say there are no such documents, 10 so be it. If you come back and say oh, there are such 11 documents, but we don't think those should be provided, then 12 you can make all of your arguments from the top again. 13 MR. BARKOW: We will do that, your Honor, but -- we'll 14 do that. 15 THE COURT: Right. 16 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, because we have another -- 17 there were just two translators. We would respectfully request 18 that the government be asked to look for the other translator 19 as well. There are some more transcripts coming up. The 20 issue's going to recur. As a matter of efficiency, that would 21 be a counsel of prudence. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we'll look for all the 23 calls that are in evidence in this case or that we intend to 24 offer into evidence to see whether there are any such reports 25 that exist. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4534 48GJSAT4 1 THE COURT: Good! 2 I should also point out that I recognize the paralegal 3 witness because I believe the paralegal witness has been a 4 witness who has been responsible for various delivery of 5 documents from the U.S. Attorney's Office to the court. There 6 is nothing about that that would affect anything for the case. 7 Anything else? 8 Okay. Please be back at 20 minutes after 2:00. 9 (Luncheon recess) 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4535 48GJSAT4 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:30 pm 3 (Trial resumes) 4 (In open court; jury not present) 5 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. Please be seated. 6 Are we ready to bring out the jurors? 7 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. I just wanted to 8 clarify that the offer of Government Exhibits 17 hundred C, 9 1701 C, 1702 C, 1704 C, 1705 C, 1706 C, which are the 10 underlying enhanced DVDs for the February 19th, 2000 visit are 11 offered to the extent that they correspond with the excerpted 12 transcript. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I don't understand the 15 limitation. I mean, you can't introduce a horse in evidence to 16 say well, to the extent it is a zebra, the transcripts of the 17 DVDs are the DVDs. They are what they are. 18 Unless the government is saying we waived forever the 19 right to notice some difficulty with the transcript which I 20 don't think is going to happen, I don't understand the 21 limitation. Why aren't they just in evidence? 22 MR. MORVILLO: Because substantial portions have been 23 redacted. 24 MR. TIGAR: I see. I am sorry. I misunderstood Mr. 25 Morvillo. To the extent that they correspond to the selections SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4536 48GJSAT4 1 made and reflected in the transcripts -- 2 THE COURT: Right. 3 MR. TIGAR: -- that would then be my suggestion. 4 THE COURT: Correct? 5 MR. MORVILLO: That's correct, your Honor, yes. 6 THE COURT: I don't have the transcript in front of 7 me. Do the parties want me to just clarify it for the record? 8 I certainly shall. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, that is the government's request, 10 your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 1700, 1701, 1702, 1704, 1705, 1706, 12 all C, 1700 C, et cetera, are admitted in evidence to the 13 extent that the selections on those DVDs correspond to the 14 transcripts in evidence. Is that right? 15 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 16 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: And each of the 1700 C, 1701 C, all of 18 those are individual DVDs or are they one DVD? 19 MR. MORVILLO: They're individual DVDs, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. When the jury comes back, I'll tell 21 them that just to clarify it for them. Okay, bring the jury 22 in. 23 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, should Mr. Bove come up while 24 the jury is coming in? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4537 48GJSAT4 1 (Pause) 2 THE COURT: You haven't yet offered 1704 X, 1705 X, 3 1607 X. 4 MR. MORVILLO: There is no corresponding exhibit for 5 that, your Honor. There is just 1701, 1702 -- as the court 6 recalls, there were Tape A and Tape B, and so that is the 7 discrepancy. 8 THE COURT: Ah! 9 (Jury present) 10 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 11 Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 12 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 13 THE COURT: Let me clarify one thing for you before we 14 return to the transcript. There were certain DVDs which I 15 received in evidence or will receive in evidence. They are 16 Government Exhibits 1700 C, 1701 C, 1702 C, 1704 C, 1705 C and 17 1606 C. Those exhibits are received in evidence to the extent 18 that the selections on those DVDs correspond to the transcripts 19 in evidence. 20 (Government's Exhibits 1700 C, 1701 C, 1702 C, 1704 C, 21 1705 C and 1606 C received in evidence) 22 THE COURT: Now we will continue with one of those 23 transcripts in evidence. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we're going to pick up a 25 few lines before where we finished. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4538 48GJSAT4 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1700 X was displayed 3 and read) 4 THE COURT: Could you keep your voice up and speak 5 into the microphone. 6 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1700 X was displayed 7 and read) 8 THE COURT: Why don't we take a stretch break. You 9 have been reading for a while. 10 (Pause) 11 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 12 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1700 X was displayed 13 and read) 14 MR. MORVILLO: Do you want to take a break? 15 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a 10-minute break, 16 ladies and gentlemen. Please remember my continuing 17 instructions not to talk about the case, to keep an open mind. 18 All rise, please. 19 (Jury excused) 20 THE COURT: I'll see you in 10 minutes. 21 (Recess) 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4539 48GLSAT5 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. All right, let's 3 bring in the jury. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, for planning purposes, I 5 was just wondering if the Court was planning to not hold court 6 on Wednesday. 7 THE COURT: No. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I didn't hear a word 9 Mr. Morvillo said. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo asked if I was not going to 11 be sitting or taking off a portion of Wednesday morning in 12 order to attend Judge Pollack's service, and I said no. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: By the way, when the transcript was being 15 read earlier today, someone pronounced c-o-p-t as "copt". 16 MR. RUHNKE: "Copts". 17 THE COURT: That's what I thought. 18 MR. RUHNKE: C-o-p-t-s is coptic Christian. 19 THE COURT: Yes. I was making an observation of how I 20 thought, when the transcript was read earlier, which I thought 21 was not correct, but -- I thought I would bring it to your 22 attention. Going back and forth between what I heard and what 23 I saw in the transcript, I paused. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4540 48GLSAT5 1 (In open court) 2 (Jury entering courtroom) 3 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 4 All right. Proceed. 5 MR. MORVILLO: May we publish -- display to the jury 6 your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes. And this is 1700X? 8 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 1700X. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1700X, continued, 11 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 12 THE COURT: All right. It's 4:30. We'll break for 13 the day. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll resume tomorrow morning, 14 9:30. 15 Please remember my continuing instructions: Please, 16 please don't talk about the case at all among yourselves or 17 with anyone else when you go home this evening. Please 18 remember, don't look at or listen to anything to do with the 19 case. If you should see or hear something, just turn away. 20 Remember always to keep an open mind until you've heard all of 21 the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to 22 the jury room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and 23 justice to the parties requires that you do that. 24 Have a very good evening. I will see you tomorrow. 25 All rise, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4541 48GLSAT5 1 (The jury exits the courtroom) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Please be seated. There was one issue. 4 There were the outstanding subpoenas, and I got Mr. Dember's 5 letter dated August the 13th, and I got Ms. Shellow-Levine's 6 letter dated August 16th, today, which includes her letter of 7 August the 13th to Mr. Dember. I think Mr. Dember's letter of 8 August the 13th was written before receiving 9 Ms. Shellow-Levine's letter of August the 13th. 10 MR. DEMBER: Actually, your Honor, Ms. Shellow-Levine 11 came to my office to discuss her letter of August the 13th and 12 we went through the items, and after we could not agree except 13 for a limited group of materials to check into, I finished 14 writing my letter of August the 13th and sent it to all the 15 parties. So I was aware of what was in her August 13th letter 16 before I sent my letter of August 13th to you. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I do think you should talk 18 again. The parties seem to have at least narrowed to some 19 degree. I don't read, for example, the current request as 20 reflected in the August 13th letter as calling any longer for 21 9,500 hours of tapes. Nor do I read it as asking for all 22 documents in the broadest sense referring or relating to 23 various subjects. So it's more limited than the original 24 subpoenas, and the August -- and your letter dated August 13th, 25 Mr. Dember, really asks me to describe the motion as the motion SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4542 48GLSAT5 1 to quash the original subpoenas, and now I have a more limited 2 list. It may well be that the objections to the original 3 subpoenas may apply equally -- some of the requests are quite 4 similar. 5 But before I decide the subpoena issue, I think you 6 should at least talk. And there's somewhat of a disconnect. 7 There is no longer, as I say, a request for 9,500 hours of 8 tapes. There's a request for one tape, and we -- the letter 9 suggests that such a tape may simply not exist. But I don't 10 know this. 11 There's a reference to, "I'll go one better", about 12 checking it out with someone. And as I say, I'll decide based 13 on the law the requests that are made. But at least I'm not 14 dealing with the requests that were originally asked for. 15 So you should at least talk and then send me a letter 16 responding to these requests. Because this is the -- I read 17 the August 13th letter as a narrowed subpoena. 18 All right? Anything else before we adjourn? 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just one very minor matter: 20 Perhaps tomorrow morning you should tell the jury -- deliver 21 the usual limiting instruction you give them about when 22 newspaper articles work their way into the evidence, that 23 they're not being offered for the truth, and newspaper articles 24 are not necessarily reliable. 25 There's so many newspaper articles working their way SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4543 48GLSAT5 1 into this. 2 THE COURT: All right. Government? 3 MR. MORVILLO: We don't have any objection to that. 4 THE COURT: Okay. All righty. See you at -- be here 5 at 9:15. See you tomorrow. 6 (Adjourned to Tuesday, August 17, 2004, at 9:15 a.m.) 7 o 0 o 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4544 1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 1700C, 1701C, 1702C, 1704C, 4 1705C, 1706C, 1710C, 1711C, 5 1712C, 1713C, 1714C, 1716C, 6 1717C, 1720C, 1721C, 1722C . . . . . . . . 4471 7 2018, 2018T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4472 8 2019, 2019T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4473 9 2059, 2059T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4474 10 2034S, 2034X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4475 11 2039X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4476 12 1051X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4478 13 2011, 2011T, 2012, 2012T, 14 2014, 2014 T, 2016, 2016T, 15 2060A, 2060AT, 2060B, 2060BT, 16 2075, 2075S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4487 17 1700S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4524 18 1700X, 1701X, 1702X . . . . . . . . . . . . 4525 19 1700C, 1701C, 1702C, 1704C, 20 1705C, 1606C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4537 21 o 0 o 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4545 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 NABILA BANOUT (cont.) 4 Direct By Mr. Barkow . . . . . . . . . . . . 4492 5 Cross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4503 6 SALLY HASSANEIN 7 Direct By Mr. Dember . . . . . . . . . . . . 4513 8 Cross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4521 9 Redirect By Mr. Dember . . . . . . . . . . . 4523 10 o 0 o 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300