4830 48NJSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 August 23, 2004 8 9:15 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 and a jury 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY, 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER, 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO, 17 ANTHONY BARKOW, 17 ANDREW DEMBER, 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL, 19 BARRY M. FALLICK, 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR, 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE, 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN, 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE, 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4831 48NJSAT1 1 (Trial resumes) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please be seated. 4 When we left off, there was a transcript that was being read. 5 Will we be beginning with the transcript? 6 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: And then? 8 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, could I just have one second. 9 (Pause) 10 MR. BARKOW: We're going to finish reading that 11 transcript, your Honor, and then -- I apologize to Ms. 12 Shellow-Lavine, I gave her a list of what we were going to do 13 this morning and left off the second thing. 14 At that point, we're going to present to the jury 15 Exhibit 1234 X, which is another transcript which is in 16 evidence, I believe, 1234 X. Then 1087 -- actually, may I just 17 have one moment, your Honor. 1234 is not a transcript. 18 (Pause) 19 MR. BARKOW: Yes, that is a transcript, your Honor, 20 1234 X. Then 1087 X, 1088 X. 21 THE COURT: 1234 X. 22 MR. BARKOW: 1087 X, 1088 X, 1089 X, of those four 23 calls, 1087 X should receive a limiting instruction, and the 24 others should not. 25 Then 1087 -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4832 48NJSAT1 1 THE COURT: 1087 X? 2 MR. BARKOW: Right. 3 THE COURT: The limiting instruction? 4 MR. BARKOW: The limiting instruction it is offered as 5 to Counts 2 and 3. 6 THE COURT: The same limiting instruction that I gave 7 with respect to 1078 X and -- 8 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: -- 1083 X? 10 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. After those four calls, 11 we have four pieces of Sattar search evidence. They are 2016 12 and 2016 T, 2060 A and 2060 AT, 2060 B and 206 B 2, and 2024 13 and 2024 T, and then we have testimony by Nabila Banout, the 14 translator. Then a stipulation regarding the May 2000 prison 15 visit, and then we are at the May 2000 prison visit, at which 16 will take several days. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar? 18 MR. TIGAR: Good morning, your Honor. 19 Are there limiting instructions with respect to the 20 Sattar search exhibits? 21 MR. BARKOW: I don't believe there are, your Honor. 22 Those exhibits were dealt with on August 13th, the day that we 23 came back from the break, at least 2016 and the two 2060s were 24 and 2024 was the one that was dealt with on Tuesday, I think, 25 of last week. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4833 48NJSAT1 1 THE COURT: Hold on. 2 (Pause) 3 MR. TIGAR: Our notes reflect the limiting instruction 4 on 2016 and 2016 T, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Yes. Well, what I said when we got 6 together on Friday a little three weeks ago -- not Friday a 7 little more than a week ago, was I ruled on 2014, 2016, 2059, 8 2060 A and B last time. So that sends me back to what I did 9 the previous time. 10 MR. BARKOW: My notes reflect, your Honor, on that day 11 when you ruled on those five exhibits, the only one, according 12 to my notes, that was going to receive a limiting instruction 13 was 2059, which was going to be a co-conspirator statement 14 subject to connection, but my notes may be incorrect. 15 MR. TIGAR: May notes say 2060 was not offered for the 16 truth, and that would include the A and B's. 17 2024 was -- 18 THE COURT: Could you hold on just one second, 19 Mr. Tigar. Mr. Barkow, your notes are from the last time on 20 Friday when I said that I ruled on all of those exhibits the 21 last time, and the one thing, in going over my notes, that I 22 didn't say and should have said was that 2059 was taken subject 23 to connection, but that sends us back to what I said with 24 respect to the exhibits the last time. 25 So you can either point to me in the transcript or I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4834 48NJSAT1 1 can go back over my notes. 2 MR. BARKOW: I don't have the transcript here, your 3 Honor. 4 THE COURT: Because I ruled on these at various times. 5 MR. BARKOW: These three, your Honor, 2016 and the two 6 2060s were all three ruled on on Friday, the 13th, and they 7 were briefed during the break, and they were all ruled on on 8 Friday the 13th. 9 Then the 2024 was ruled upon last week during the 10 trial, either on Tuesday or Wednesday. Mr. Dember is 11 correcting me. I don't take my notes that way, your Honor, so 12 if I can just have a minute. 13 THE COURT: It is easy enough. You all have access to 14 the computerized transcript. 15 (Pause) 16 THE COURT: 2016, this document is offered solely 17 against Mr. Sattar for his knowledge, intent and state of mind 18 and not for the truth of any matter asserted in the document 19 was the limiting instruction I said I would give. 20 2060 A and B, these exhibits are received in evidence, 21 but not for the truth of any matter asserted in the documents. 22 2024 I ruled anew last week, and my recollection is 23 the government said it was not being offered for the truth -- 24 MR. BARKOW: That's correct. 25 THE COURT: -- asserted in the document, and I would, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4835 48NJSAT1 1 therefore, instruct the jury that it is not being received for 2 the truth of any matter asserted in the document. 3 That's on my recollection rather than on my notes, so 4 if anyone has -- 5 MR. TIGAR: That accords with our recollection, your 6 Honor, what we have noted at the time. 7 MR. BARKOW: I don't have a great recollection of it, 8 your Honor, but it sounds correct. I don't have a problem with 9 it. 10 THE COURT: Is there anything else before we bring in 11 the jury? 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, with respect to the 13 transcripts of the May 2000 prison visit which we will probably 14 not get to this morning, but we may, the parties have a 15 proposed instruction for the court to read to the jury with 16 respect to the translations, the transcriptions, the disputed 17 portions. May I hand it up? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 (Pause) 20 THE COURT: The proposed instruction is very good. I 21 am certainly prepared to read it. I appreciate the parties 22 having worked out the language, some of which is familiar. 23 Okay. Anything else? All right. Let's bring in the 24 jury. 25 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I remind you today is the day SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4836 48NJSAT1 1 that the lunch is scheduled that we requested. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. Remind me if I forget. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Good morning, 5 ladies and gentlemen. 6 THE JURY: Good morning. 7 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 8 Ladies and gentlemen, when we left off last week, we 9 were in the middle of listening to the transcript of a 10 conversation, and so I believe that we can pick up there. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. For the record, we 12 are in the middle of Government Exhibit 1086 X. 13 THE COURT: I am sorry? 14 MR. MORVILLO: 1086 X. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Mr. Barkow and I were at the lectern, 17 and we were on page 17. May we publish that to the jury while 18 we are reading? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1086 X was displayed 21 and read) 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 23 requests permission to publish to the jury and read to the jury 24 Government Exhibit 1087 X in evidence. 25 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4837 48NJSAT1 1 Government Exhibit 1087 X is offered only as to Counts 2 and 3 2 of the indictment. The transcript is received subject to 3 connection against Mr. Sattar, and I explained what that means 4 to you. 5 The transcript cannot be considered against Ms. 6 Stewart or Mr. Yousry for the truth of any of the matters 7 asserted in the transcript. All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, your Honor, this is a 9 telephone call on May 17th, 2000, 11:05 pm. 10 THE COURT: Give me one moment before you start, 11 please. 12 (Pause) 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, one minute. 15 May I proceed, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Brackets continuation of previous call) 18 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1087 X was displayed 19 and read) 20 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we request 21 permission to publish to the jury and read to the jury 22 Government Exhibit 1088 X which is in evidence. This is a call 23 on May 18th of 2000, at 9:06 pm. We ask permission for Mr. 24 Glenn to come forward to read the lines of Mohammad Yousry and 25 if Mr. Forkner could step down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4838 48NJSAT1 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. BARKOW: Mr. Glenn will read the lines of Mohammad 3 Yousry, and I will read the lines of Mohammad N. Elmasry. 4 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1088 X was displayed 5 and read) 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 7 would seek permission to publish to the jury some Sattar search 8 material. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I request permission to have 11 Ms. Griffith place on the screen Government Exhibit 2016 which 12 is in evidence. 2016, I think there are instructions with 13 this. 14 THE COURT: Haven't they been received in evidence? 15 MR. BARKOW: 2016? I thought it had. If not, I'll 16 offer 2016 and 2016 T at this point. 17 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 2016 and 18 2016 T received in evidence. 19 (Government's Exhibits 2016 and 2016 T received in 20 evidence) 21 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this document is 22 offered and received solely against Mr. Sattar for his 23 knowledge, intent and state of mind and not for the truth of 24 any matter asserted in the document. All right. 25 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I place 2016 on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4839 48NJSAT1 1 screens? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I hold up the original of 4 this exhibit and just publish it to the jury? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Pause) 7 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, may we publish 8 to the jury Government Exhibit 2016 T, by placing it on the 9 screens and reading it? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. BARKOW: Government Exhibit 2016 T. 12 (At this time, Government Exhibit 2016 T was displayed 13 and read) 14 MR. TIGAR: May I consult with Mr. Barkow, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (Pause). 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, just to be clear, we put on 18 the screen again briefly the 2016 T exhibit, and if you go to 19 the bottom of the page, just to be clear, on the bottom of the 20 page the initials and date which appears on two pages are the 21 initials of the translator and the date on which the translator 22 initialed the document, not the date of the document itself. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. BARKOW: In fact, your Honor, for the 25 translations, that is true with respect to all the translations SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4840 48NJSAT1 1 in the series of exhibits. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. BARKOW: At this point, we request permission to 4 publish to the jury Government Exhibit 2060 A. I believe it is 5 in evidence, your Honor. If it is not, I offer 2060 A and 2060 6 AT at this point -- actually, it is probably not in evidence. 7 We offer those two exhibits at this point, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 2060 A and 9 2060 AT are received in evidence. 10 (Government's Exhibits 2060 A and 2060 AT received in 11 evidence) 12 THE COURT: These exhibits are received in evidence, 13 ladies and gentlemen, but not for the truth of any matter 14 asserted in the documents. You cannot take it for the truth of 15 any matter that is stated in in the documents. 16 MR. BARKOW: May we publish 2060 A to the jury, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Pause) 20 MR. BARKOW: And the next page. 21 (Pause) 22 MR. BARKOW: This is actually the back of the first 23 page. And the next page, please. 24 (Pause) 25 MR. BARKOW: And the next page, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4841 48NJSAT1 1 (Pause). 2 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, may we publish 3 and read to the jury Government Exhibit 2060 AT? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (At this time, Government Exhibit 2060 AT was 6 displayed and read) 7 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, the government 8 offers into evidence Government Exhibits 2060 B and 2060 BT and 9 request permission to publish them to the jury. 10 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibits 2060 B and 11 2060 BT are received in evidence. 12 (Government's Exhibits 2060 B and 2060 BT received in 13 evidence) 14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, these exhibits also 15 are received in evidence, but not for the truth of any matter 16 asserted in the documents. 17 MR. BARKOW: If you could publish the back of this. 18 (At this point, Government Exhibits 2060 B was 19 displayed) 20 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we publish and read 21 Government Exhibit 2060 BT? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. BARKOW: Government Exhibit 2060 BT. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2060 BT was 25 displayed and read) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4842 48NJSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 2 offers into evidence Government Exhibit 2024 and 2024 T. 3 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, 4 Government Exhibits 2024 and 2024 T are received in evidence. 5 6 THE COURT: These exhibits are not received for the 7 truth of any matter asserted in the documents. 8 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I publish these to the 9 jury on the Elmo? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. BARKOW: Government Exhibit 2024. If I may, your 12 Honor, there is an English line on top. Let me read that. 20 13 June 2000 -- 20 June OO, 14: 57, OOOO, S2. 14 May we publish to the jury Government Exhibit 2024 T 15 to the jury and read it to the jury? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. BARKOW: Government Exhibit 2024 T. 18 (At this time, Government Exhibit 2024 T was displayed 19 and read) 20 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a second, your Honor. 21 (Pause) 22 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 23 calls Nabila Banout as a witness. 24 THE CLERK: Ms. Banout, having been previously sworn, 25 you are reminded you're still under oath. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4843 48NJSAT1 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 NABILA BANOUT, 4 called as a witness by the Government, 5 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 6 DIRECT EXAMINATION 7 THE COURT: Mr. Barkow, you may examine. 8 MR. BARKOW: Thank you. 9 DIRECT EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. BARKOW: 11 Q. Good morning, Ms. Banout. 12 A. Good morning. 13 Q. Ms. Banout, you're a language specialist with the FBI, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You testified here twice before? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 19 offers Ms. Banout as an expert in Arabic translations. 20 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow her to testify. 21 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 (Pause) 24 BY MR. BARKOW: 25 Q. Ms. Banout, I'm placing before you what is in evidence as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4844 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Government Exhibits 17O6 C 2, 1707 C 2, 1710 C, 1713 C, 1711 C, 2 1712 C, and 1714 C, a stack of DVDs, and also placing before 3 you what is marked for identification as Government Exhibits 4 17O6 TA, 1707 TA, 1710 TA, 1711 TA, and 1712 TA. Can you 5 please take a look through those documents I've placed before 6 you and look up when you're done. 7 A. (Complying) Yes, Mr. Barkow. 8 Q. Ms. Banout, do you recognize those documents I've placed 9 before you? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What are they? 12 A. They're transcripts that I prepared as translation of the 13 contents of the DVDs. 14 Q. Are those transcripts true an accurate translations of the 15 Arabic portions on those DVDs into English? 16 A. Yes, they are, to the best of my ability. 17 Q. Now, Ms. Banout, where did you do this translation work? 18 Where were you located physically? 19 A. In our office. 20 Q. Is that the same office and same cubicle you've described 21 previously in your testimony? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you also listen to these DVDs at any other geographic 24 location other than your office across the street? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4845 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Q. Did you ever travel anywhere and listen to the DVDs? 2 A. No. 3 Q. In Virginia? 4 A. In Virginia, yes. 5 Q. Where did you go in Virginia? 6 A. Quantico, ERF. 7 Q. What is the Quantico? 8 A. The Engineering Research Facility. 9 Q. For the FBI? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is that where you said ERF? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you have occasion to listen to these DVDs down there as 14 well? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, when you were in your office across the street, what 17 kind of equipment did you use to listen to the DVDs and make 18 these transcripts? 19 A. It is a DVD player that I place the DVD on and I listen to 20 it to review the transcripts. 21 Q. Did you use speakers or headphones, or how did you hear the 22 sound? 23 A. Headphones. 24 Q. What kind of headphones? 25 A. It is a headset that covers my ears, blocking all outside SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4846 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 noise and making me listen to it with concentration. 2 Q. When you're listening using those headphones, can you hear 3 what is going on otherwise in the room that you're in? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you listen to these just one time or did you go back 6 and listen to them more than once? 7 A. I went back and forth, like play, fast forward and back. 8 Q. Why did you do that? 9 A. To make sure I heard it right. 10 Q. When you were in Quantico, Virginia, what kind of equipment 11 did you use to listen to it down there? I don't need the name 12 or anything, just what it looked like? 13 A. It is a player that you place the DVD on and you listen to 14 it. 15 Q. What kind, did you use speakers or headphones or how did 16 you hear the sound? 17 A. Headphones. 18 Q. Were they the kind that go in your ear or cover your ear? 19 A. Cover my ear. 20 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 (Pause) 23 BY MR. BARKOW: 24 Q. Ms. Banout, I'm placing before you what has been marked for 25 identification as Government Exhibits 1103 T and 1146 T. Would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4847 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 you take a look at those and look up when you're done. 2 A. (Complying) Yes, Mr. Barkow. 3 Q. Ms. Banout, do you recognize 1103 T and 1146 T? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. What are they? 6 A. They are translations of two calls that I did. 7 Q. Were those calls that you listened to on DVDs? 8 A. Yes.. 9 Q. Do the documents in front of you have file names typed on 10 them like the others you have testified about twice before? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do those file names match file names on the DVDs you 13 listened to, them off of? 14 A. Exactly so. 15 Q. Who did you get those DVDs from? 16 A. Scott Kerns 17 Q. Ms. Banout, are the transcripts I put before you, 1103 T 18 and 1146 T, true and accurate translations from Arabic into 19 English of the corresponding calls on the DVDs? 20 A. Yes, they are. 21 Q. Did you do this translation work in the same office across 22 the street you described previously? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And using the same headphones? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4848 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Q. And the same method of going back if you had to to listen 2 to it again? 3 A. Exactly so. 4 Q. Ms. Banout, on one of these -- well, you testified 5 previously about the Arabic word for female lawyer. Do you 6 remember that? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. If you could flip open to Page 7 of Exhibit 1146 T, do you 9 see 1146 T? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And go to Page 7, Do you actually see a part in there where 12 it says "female lawyer"? 13 A. The third line, yes. 14 Q. Put that down because I want to ask you generally. You 15 testified before about a female lawyer, and you spoke about 16 whether the noun was gendered, I think you said? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, are other parts of speech in Arabic also gendered, any 19 other types or parts of speech? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What other parts of speech? 22 A. Verbs are gendered, pronouns and adjectives are also 23 gendered. 24 Q. I would like to -- 25 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4849 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 (Pause) 3 BY MR. BARKOW: 4 Q. I am showing you what has been marked for identification 5 Government Exhibit 3507 E. Do you recognize this? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What is this? 8 A. This is an Arabic sentence. 9 Q. Before you tell what is on the document, what is the piece 10 of paper itself. Did you make it? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you make it in order to explain this concept of 13 gendered words in Arabic? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Would this document help you explain that as an aid to the 16 jury and explain how different words are gendered in Arabic? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, with the court's permission, 19 I would like to publish on this on the Elmo as an aid to the 20 jury. 21 MR. TIGAR: What number is that? 22 MR. BARKOW: 3507 E, like Edward, as opposed to D. 23 MR. TIGAR: No objection. 24 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 3507 E 25 received as a demonstrative aid to the witness' testimony. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4850 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 (Government's Exhibit 3507 E received in evidence) 2 MR. RUHNKE: May I have a moment to talk to Mr. Barkow 3 for a second? 4 THE COURT: Sure. 5 (Pause) 6 THE COURT: Is it okay? 7 MR. RUHNKE: We can go ahead, your Honor. 8 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor, we had given out two 9 documents that looked similar, but they're different. May I 10 proceed, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: No. Hold on a moment. 12 (Pause) 13 THE COURT: All right. Okay. 14 BY MR. BARKOW: 15 Q. Ms. Banout, looking at Government Exhibit 3507 E, can you, 16 first of all, explain what this document is and what it is 17 supposed to show. 18 A. The document has a simple sentence in Arabic written in 19 English letters to be easy to understand and read. It says in 20 Arabic hayakol wysalem wiymshi. 21 Q. Is that what you just read, I am tracing my finger,? 22 A. Exactly. 23 Q. The colors across the top? 24 A. Yes. And I want to show that the H A Y, hay, is the tense 25 of the verb. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4851 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Q. What does this sentence -- can you press where it says 2 "erase" on the lower-right-hand corner of your screen? 3 What is the sentence in English you chose to use as an 4 illustration? What is the sentence in English? 5 A. It is, "He will eat, shake hands and leave." 6 Q. So that, obviously, is the male gender throughout the 7 sentence? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you also wrote this out for the female gender 10 throughout the sentence? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. "She will eat, shake hands and leave"? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Can you explain what the difference is between a 15 male-gendered sentence and female-gendered sentence in Arabic. 16 A. Yes. The male-gender sentence has the letter Y in that for 17 clarity, hayakol, he will eat. 18 The bottom has hatakol, she will eat. 19 Q. To be clear, the words are a little dim, but are the words 20 identical except for the difference in the Y and the T? 21 A. Exactly. 22 Q. And so in that first word, hayakol, what is the ha part of 23 the word, H A? 24 A. The tense of the word, the future tense. 25 Q. As "in he will eat," in the future? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4852 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is the A K O L part of the word? 3 A. That is the verb itself. 4 Q. That means eat? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. So what does the Y represent and the T represent on the 7 lower line? 8 A. The Y represents he, the T represents she. 9 Q. And is the same true for the second set, the shake hands 10 set of words? What does the W I represent in the shake hands 11 part? 12 A. That is "and," contraction. 13 Q. And, A N D? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. What does S A L E M mean? 16 A. Salem means shake hands because you cannot separate it from 17 the letter Y, and you cannot separate it from the letter T in 18 the second sentence. Wiysalem means he shake hands. 19 Witsalem, she shakes hands. 20 Q. So the words are identical except for the change of Y to T? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. The same is true also for the "leave," wiymshi and 23 witimshi? 24 A. Yes, wiymshi, witimshi. Wiymshi means he leaves. 25 Witimshi, she leaves. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4853 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Q. Just to be clear, the way a person speaks in Arabic in 2 terms of the noun, the verb for or the adjective they use, can 3 you tell what gender the person is they're referring to? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it necessary to use the same gender throughout the whole 6 clause or the whole sentence if you're referring to the same 7 person, that is, you have to use a male noun, or male noun and 8 male verb and male adjective if you're talking about the same 9 thing? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (Pause) 14 BY MR. BARKOW: 15 Q. Ms. Banout, I am showing you what I have just shown to 16 counsel and marked for identification as Government Exhibits 17 1400, 1400 T and 1401. Would you please take a look at those 18 and look up when you're done. 19 A. (Complying) Yes. 20 Q. Ms. Banout, have you looked at those documents? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you take a look at 1400 T first, 1400 T. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recognize that? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4854 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Q. What is it? 2 A. It is a translation of the answers -- 3 Q. Don't actually read what it says. 4 Is it a translation of another document you have in 5 front of you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Which one is it? 8 A. That is 1400. 9 Q. So 1400 T is a translation of 1400? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you prepare 1400 T? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How are you able to recognize it your work? 14 A. With my initials and date. 15 Q. Is 1400 T a true and accurate translation from the Arabic 16 into the English of 1400? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, would you put those aside. Would you take a look at 19 1401. Do you recognize that? Have you seen it before? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, have you reviewed this document? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Does it have an Arabic and English writing on it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Have you examined that Arabic and English writing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4855 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Does the English roughly translate the Arabic on the same 3 document, that is, Exhibit 1401? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Just to be clear, did you do the translation? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You just reviewed it? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know who did it? 10 A. No. 11 MR. BARKOW: May I have a moment, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (Pause) 14 MR. BARKOW: I have nothing further at this point, 15 your Honor. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, perhaps before 17 cross-examination, the jury may want to take a morning break. 18 THE COURT: If this would be a convenient time, sure. 19 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break for the mid-morning 20 break. Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 21 about the case at all, always remember to keep an open mind 22 until you have heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you 23 on the law and you have gone to the jury room to begin 24 deliberations. 25 (Jury excused) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4856 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 THE COURT: Ms. Banout, you may step down. Thank you. 2 (The witness left the witness stand). 3 THE COURT: I should have mentioned at the outset 4 today, too, the parties are going to get back to me on the 5 issue of the underlying recordings of the prison visits, I 6 believe, to make sure that the record accurately reflects what 7 should be in evidence and any instructions for the jury about 8 what portions are in evidence. 9 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, you Ms. Baker checked over 10 the weekend. The underlying tapes, the actual tapes 11 themselves, 1700 through 1725, are not actually in evidence, 12 and so we would like to offer them into evidence, as they 13 correspond to the redacted transcripts that are ultimately to 14 be admitted in evidence. 15 What happened was before the break, they were offered, 16 and there was discussion about them, but they were not 17 ultimately actually received, according to her check of the 18 transcripts over the weekend. 19 THE COURT: All right. There was a suggested 20 instruction for me with respect to other exhibits, with respect 21 to the proper way of referring to the excerpts that the parties 22 had agreed upon. I should give the same instruction for these, 23 so make sure you agree, and after the break tell me what the 24 proposal is to tell the jury with respect to Government 25 Exhibits 1700 to 1725. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4857 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 Second, highlight for me the importance of getting an 2 updated exhibit list that the government gives me and that the 3 defense goes over to make sure that there's agreement with 4 respect to the exhibits that are in evidence, and it is to be 5 done promptly so that something like this doesn't sit out 6 there. We sit four days a week. 7 What's reasonable to get updated exhibit lists? 8 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we can do it weekly. The 9 only issue is we don't necessarily have it up to date every day 10 because sometimes we go back at night and we continue to do it. 11 So we try to keep up, but we are not exactly up to 12 date. That is why after the break we provided a copy of the 13 exhibit list and said it was up to date through I think it was 14 July 26th. Even though we had one more trial date, we hadn't 15 finished updating it for that date yet. 16 We can provide them weekly and we will be explicit as 17 to when they're up to date through. We are not able to keep up 18 and do it every night and be up to date. We try to do it as it 19 comes in. 20 THE COURT: Yes, that's good. 21 MR. BARKOW: We record it, but we don't get, we don't 22 get it into a form we can print it out and provide it to your 23 Honor as we have done before. That is really the gap. 24 THE COURT: I really, though, want a situation where 25 you get up and tell me, as you did the first thing this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4858 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 morning, that these exhibits are in evidence, and then I have 2 to check my notes and say well, my recollection is that I dealt 3 with these things, but I dealt with them at the conference 4 outside the presence of the jury, right? 5 MR. BARKOW: That's correct. 6 THE COURT: So -- 7 MR. BARKOW: We are almost at a stage where there is 8 not that many pieces of evidence other than are going to be 9 contained in the search evidence that are going to be coming 10 in. We are at a stage where most of the evidence we are going 11 to present is. 12 In. So when we give your Honor the next updated list, 13 it is going to, it is going to have a lot of things in there 14 that we're really just going to be publishing and not offering 15 as we publish. We are not capable of being up to date every 16 day with the list that we print out for the court, but we try 17 to keep up also because we don't want to fall too far behind. 18 That is what just happened this morning. My notes were not up 19 to date with what had happened the last time in the court. 20 THE COURT: I want to make sure we deal with this 21 promptly should there be any differences between the defense 22 list and the government list, so -- 23 MR. BARKOW: We can do it more than weekly. 24 We are not necessarily going to be up to date. We can 25 do it as often as the court would like. We might give the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4859 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 court the same list two days in a row because we might not have 2 entered it into our computer yet. 3 THE COURT: You all can talk about this, but I 4 certainly would want a list that is current by Monday morning, 5 and I should also have one, it would seem to me, on Thursday. 6 I realize we may be one or two days behind. 7 When you say most of the -- I realize there are going 8 to be a few days when no new evidence is going to be offered, 9 but are there other areas of exhibits that haven't even been 10 touched on? 11 MR. BARKOW: That's correct, there will be a lot of 12 exhibits from the searches. 13 What I was referring to was the calls. We are at a 14 point where many of the calls are in evidence and we'll be able 15 to go through and do calls without having to offer anything. 16 We're be able to go from one to the next, and that is what I am 17 referring to. The searches are somewhat self-contained. I am 18 not working on either one of them so I don't know how many is 19 on the list. 20 THE COURT: Well, it seems to me Monday morning and 21 Thursday morning at this point, even if you're some time 22 behind. 23 MR. BARKOW: We will do that, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: The second thing is, talk to each other 25 about what I should tell the jury on Government Exhibit 1700 to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4860 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 1725, and there will plainly be an offer also with respect to 2 the exhibits that were mentioned by Ms. Banout and that are not 3 yet in evidence. Okay, see you shortly. 4 (Recess) 5 THE COURT: Please be seated. 6 I realize that we are about to go to cross of 7 Ms. Banout, so now would not be the right time to receive 8 Government Exhibit 1700 to 1725, but I assume after her 9 testimony it would be. And so the exact instructions for 10 Government Exhibits 1700 to 1725 is? 11 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Shellow-Lavine isolated it from the 12 last time you gave the instruction on Page 1418 of the 13 transcript. 14 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, I think it is 4818, 15 and the court instructed, with respect to Government Exhibit 16 1730 and 1370 -- I am sorry, 1730 and 1317 -- were received in 17 evidence for the portions of the recordings reflected in the X 18 transcripts that will be offered except at the very top of -- 19 THE COURT: The portions of the recordings reflected 20 in the X transcripts that will be offered? All right. Are 21 those X transcripts yet in evidence? 22 MR. BARKOW: No, your Honor. There is a stipulation 23 at this point. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I proceed? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4861 48NJSAT1 Banout - direct 1 I have a question about 1400 and 1401, as to which the 2 witness was asked the translation. There is a great deal of 3 identifying data at the top of 1400 and 1401 -- 4 MR. BARKOW: I am not offering them right now. I am 5 saying it because she is here. 6 MR. TIGAR: I don't know whether that is going to come 7 out before they go in. It looks like investigation data, that 8 is, how did we get these things. For now I'm to take these 9 simply as having been identified as what the witness would 10 testify to, right? 11 MR. BARKOW: Yes. I can explain more to Mr. Tigar 12 during the break. 13 THE COURT: All right. Are we ready to bring in the 14 jury? All right, bring in the jury. 15 (Jury present) 16 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 17 MR. RUHNKE: May, I, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 CROSS EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. RUHNKE: 21 Q. Ms. Banout, good morning. 22 A. Good morning. 23 Q. You testified on your direct examination about having gone 24 to Quantico, the lab to listen to some of the DVDs. Is that 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4862 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. When did you go to Quantico? 3 A. It is difficult for me to remember the date. 4 Q. Was it within the last six months? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Can you give us just your best estimate, was it a month 7 ago, was it six months ago? 8 A. I can go to my at last to see, but I am sorry, I can't 9 remember, even approximately. 10 Q. You don't know whether it was 30 days ago? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Was it 60 days ago? 13 A. I can't tell. I am sorry. 14 Q. Okay. What did you listen to in Quantico? 15 A. I listened to the VCR and DVD. 16 Q. Of what? 17 A. Of the prison visits. 18 Q. Of all of the prison visits? 19 A. No. One at a time. 20 Q. Which prison visit did you listen to at that time? 21 A. There is one in February. 22 Q. There was one in February? 23 A. 2000. 24 Q. February 19, 2000? 25 A. May 19 and 20, 2000, July 15 and 14, 2000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4863 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Q. And -- 2 A. I think -- 3 Q. -- 2000? If I understood your testimony, what you just 4 said, you listened to one of the prison visits. Is that 5 correct? 6 A. One at a time, yes. 7 Q. One at a time or one at that time? 8 A. No. One at a time, like I went to Quantico several times. 9 This is why it is difficult for me to recall the date, 10 and each time I went, I had one, I had to deal with one visit 11 at a time. 12 Q. So you made several visits to Quantico, and each time you 13 made a visit, you listened to one of the particular prison 14 visits, is that your testimony? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. But you can't tell us when you were there? 17 A. I am sorry. It is difficult for me to remember the dates. 18 Q. What kind of equipment did they have at Quantico? 19 A. They had VCR players and DVD players. 20 Q. VCR players or DVD players? 21 What did you have in your cubicle area across the 22 street at 26 Federal Plaza? 23 A. Both. 24 Q. DVD and VCR players? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4864 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Q. Were the DVD players and VCR players at Quantico 2 significantly better than the equipment that you have? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Basically the same kind of players? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Basically the same quality? 7 A. I would say the same quality, but I cannot say they are the 8 same equipment. 9 Q. But essentially they produced similar audio signals? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, you testified here on several occasions -- you may be 12 back here again testifying -- that the Arabic translations 13 which you produced are true and accurate, to the best of your 14 ability, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In order to make a translation, you've got to first 17 understand the word that is being spoken in Arabic in a sense 18 of hearing it, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then you have to understand what the English translation of 21 that word is, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, we agree that on these tape recordings, VCR, 24 videotapes, some of the spoken words are very, very clear. Is 25 that clear? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4865 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 A. I am asking, did you say very clear? 2 Q. I am sorry. The acoustics in here are terrible. I'll 3 rephrase the question. 4 THE COURT: Hold on one moment. Ms. Banout, keep your 5 voice up and, Mr. Ruhnke, if you keep your voice up, too, 6 and -- you're correct, the acoustics are not the best, and I'll 7 try to keep my voice up. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Thank your Honor. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Let's go back to the question again. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I'll try to keep my voice clear and up. 13 The recordings you listened to, some of the spoken 14 words are very, very clear and very easy to hear. Is that 15 correct? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. And some of them are far less clear. Is that correct? 18 A. Repeat. Some of them are? 19 Q. Are not as clear? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And there comes a point where some of the words that are 22 not clear are so unclear that you simply can't understand what 23 is being said. Is that correct? 24 A. No, it is not correct. When it is not clear, I play it 25 back and forth until it becomes understandable, and then I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4866 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 translate it. 2 Q. If there are words that you play back and forth and you 3 still cannot understand them, they're called inaudible. Is 4 that correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And there are portions of the sound recordings where, 7 because of background noise or other reasons, nobody can tell 8 what is being spoken for a particular sentence. Is that 9 correct also? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Were there times when you called on other people to listen 12 to passages or segments, in an effort to see what they were, 13 other Arabic language sessions? 14 A. To listen to a few words, yes. 15 Q. You would have a special -- back and forth, I would say -- 16 nothing wrong, you might ask -- say I am not sure, what do you 17 hear, words to that effect, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. After that back and forth, neither one of you could really 20 make out what is being said or anyone could make out what is 21 being said, it was your call as to say something was 22 unintelligible, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Throughout these recordings and transcripts, there are 25 portions of them called simply unintelligible, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4867 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. We've had some testimony I believe from you about some of 3 the ways that people people identify one another to other 4 Arabic speakers. I am making reference, for example, to the 5 word you translated for us Abu, A B U, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You told us that Abu means "father of"? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. There are many, many common names in Arabic, are there not? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. The name Mohammad is a very common name, correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. The name Usama is a very common name, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. The name Ahmed is a very common name, correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Abu Abdullah, Nabil, very common names in Arabic, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. In an effort to identify people -- for example, if you were 20 walking along a promenade in Cairo on the Nile and said the 21 Arabic equivalent of "Hey, Mohammad," a lot of people might 22 turn around. Is that correct? 23 A. Possible, yes. 24 Q. And so when people talk about Mohammad, for example, which 25 is the name of the prophet of Islam, a common Arabic man's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4868 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 name, they often use descriptives so people know who they're 2 talking about, correct? 3 A. Part of the truth, yes. 4 Q. If this was another kind of case, you might have a 5 telephone call where somebody said I talked to Tony last night, 6 and someone says Tony who? And they said Fat Tony from Queens, 7 and they know who they're talking about? 8 A. Exactly. 9 Q. And you use it narrow it down to the universe of Tonys, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. One way to do that is using the word Abu to designate the 13 people speaking of as the father of someone maybe known to the 14 other participant in the conversation, correct? 15 A. Correct. 16 Q. So that if, for example, Mr. Yousry has a daughter named 17 Leslie, he might refer to Mohammad Abu Leslie, and people would 18 know the Mohammad who is Leslie's father, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. There are other ways of narrowing down this universe of 21 names; for example, we had and you have seen conversations in 22 this case involving a man named Nabil Elmasry, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. "Elmasry" happens to be in Arabic the word "the Egyptian," 25 is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4869 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 A. It means "the Egyptian," but it is also used as a name. 2 Q. But that Nabil Elmasry, Elmasry happens to be that 3 gentlemen's family name, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. If you were talking about, for example, conversations where 6 you heard Abu Leslie Elmasry, you might see that the speaker 7 was talking about the father of Leslie, the Egyptian, correct? 8 A. That is seldom used. 9 Q. I certainly will take your word for it. 10 If you were talking about somebody who was Mohammad 11 Al-Sharif, talking about Mohammad, the American, pardon my 12 Arabic? 13 A. That is a description, not a name. 14 Q. It is a way of saying like Fat Tony from Queens, describes 15 someone people know who we are talking about. If you were 16 talking about Mohammad Al-Sharif, you knew you were talking 17 about Mohammad the American, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It is aware of narrowing the names down. 20 There is also a way -- we have heard a conversation 21 where somebody was identified as Abu Natara? 22 A. Yes. I remember that. 23 Q. And that means eyeglasses. Is that correct? 24 A. Natara means eyeglasses. 25 Q. So it is referring to Abu Natara, it is not the father of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4870 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 the eyeglasses? 2 A. No. That is a description. 3 Q. We are talking about which Tony? The Tony with the 4 glasses, right? 5 A. Exactly. 6 Q. It is a way of describing the person involved in the 7 conversation? 8 A. Ah-huh. 9 Q. There are some other terms I don't think we have had an 10 opportunity to explain or ask about on some of the tapes. 11 For example, some of the tapes make reference to the 12 copts, and -- 13 A. Say -- 14 Q. Copts, spelled C O P T S. Have you seen that? 15 A. Copts, yes. 16 Q. Not cops and robbers, right? It is a different kind of 17 cop? 18 A. I understand. 19 Q. Is that a reference to Coptic Christians? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In Egypt, maybe 10 or 15 percent of the country are Coptic 22 Christians. Is that correct? 23 A. I think so. 24 Q. That is a very distinct group within the Egyptian 25 community, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4871 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And we have heard of some of the tapes, references to 3 monetary figures expressed in terms of pounds? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. The Egyptian form of money is Egyptian pound? 6 A. The Egyptian currency. 7 Q. The Egyptian currency is known as the pound, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Egypt was a colony of Great Britain until 1952 or so, 10 correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. They adopted the Egyptian pound? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. This morning we heard a reference on a telephone call about 15 a watch that plays the adan or hassan? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Does that mean the call to prayers? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. As you know, your background, the devout Muslims are 20 required to pray five times a day at particular times, if they 21 can do it, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that in a predominantly Muslim country like Egypt is, 24 when it is time to pray, from the top of the mosques from the 25 minarets, they will usually broadcast a melodic verse of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4872 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Koran that basically says now it is time to pray, correct? 2 A. Correct. 3 Q. That is the adan? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. We also heard from one of the tapes about what appears to 6 be a holiday known as EID, and is it more than one holiday in 7 Egypt? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What is the EID holidays, E I D? 10 A. There are two major ones. One is called the lesser EID, 11 lesser EID, and the greater, that is another EID. One is about 12 the celebration of the end of Ramadan, and the other culminates 13 the second Abraham that did for his son. 14 Q. Abraham, as you know, is honored in Islam as a great 15 prophet? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. I don't have any more 18 questions. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. TIGAR: May I have the colored version of 3507 D, 23 please. 24 CROSS EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. TIGAR: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4873 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Q. Ms. Banout, do you have Government Exhibit 1146 T in front 2 of you? It is a transcript of a translation of a telephone 3 call, so it will be a short one. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you please look at the last page, Page 9 line 5. 6 Do you see the word "interrupted translation" there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What does that mean? 9 A. When the conversation becomes intermittent and you cannot 10 hear it. 11 Q. Now, when you wrote "interrupted transmission" when the 12 conversation became intermittent, did you report that situation 13 to SO1 or Mr. Kerns? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Did you do that in a writing? 16 A. To the best of my recollection, I think I did that by 17 E-mail, addressed to Steve Sorrells. 18 Q. Did you do that back when you first heard the conversation 19 back in 2000 or did you do it more recently? 20 A. I am sorry, Mr. Ruhnke, I can't recall what I did in 2000, 21 but I remember what I did, at least what I reviewed. 22 Q. You do remember what you did recently when you reviewed? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You sent that in the form of E-mail to someone named Steve? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4874 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Q. And he is a member of that SO1 squad? 2 A. He is one of the agents. 3 Q. An FBI agent? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you now look at Page 8 line 14. Do you see the 6 words, "brief pause"? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. What did you mean by "brief pause"? 9 What were you hearing in the earphones that brought 10 you to write "brief pause"? 11 A. You hear nothing that goes for a short period of time. 12 Q. Does the nothing sound like the speaker is not speaking but 13 you can still hear room noise, or does it sound like nothing is 14 being recorded? 15 Is it silence in the sense of silence, or is it 16 background noise, but no speaking? 17 A. It is not background noise, it is just silence. It is like 18 when we're talking and I pause for a minute to think, for 19 instance. 20 Q. Did you report that one, or was that simply something that 21 was part of your duties to note as you were doing the 22 translation? 23 A. That is not a problem to be reported. 24 Q. There are a number of unintelligibles throughout this 25 transcript. Those are the unintelligibles that we talked about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4875 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 before, where you just can't make out exactly what is being 2 said, correct? 3 A. Exactly so, yes. 4 Q. When you went to Quantico and listened on those three 5 occasions, did you make any written reports about your plans to 6 go or what you did while you were there? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Now I am going to turn on the overhead. 9 MR. RUHNKE: May I display 3507 E, your Honor? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 BY MR. RUHNKE: 12 Q. This is the document you were looking at before. This 13 syllable hay, is that what is the future tense? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, you notice in the middle where I have a finger 16 wiysalem, which means "shakes hands," correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. That, if I took the "hay" out, if the "hay" sound dropped 19 out, would that put the whole sentence in the present tense? 20 A. No, that doesn't put the whole sentence in the present 21 tense; it puts it in the future tense because the W I, which 22 means "and," makes it conjunction to the first one. 23 In other words, if it doesn't say H A in it, it is 24 implying that it is in the future tense because of the 25 conjunction. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4876 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 Q. The W I also is a marker that shows us the future tense? 2 A. It means "and," A N D. So and like hayakol wysalem, it 3 means he will eat and shake hands. In other words, he will eat 4 and shakes hands and leave. 5 Q. Well, how would you say "he eats" present tense, "shakes 6 hands and leaves"? 7 A. Okay. It will be, instead of hay, so B I, indicates the 8 present tense. 9 Q. So it would be B I, instead of H A? 10 A. Exactly, sir. 11 Q. In other words, the presence of the sound hay or BI at the 12 beginning is a marker that shows us whether the sentence is in 13 the present or future tense? 14 A. Exactly so. 15 Q. With respect to down here, she will eat, shake hands and 16 leave, I want to ask you a question, a question not about the 17 translation, but about a cultural matter. 18 A. Please. 19 Q. A woman in Egyptian society, in Muslim society, would not 20 shake hands with a man, would she? 21 A. Most likely, yes. 22 Q. Most likely she would or would not? 23 A. Would not. 24 Q. Would not? 25 If you're talking about what a woman is doing in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4877 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 interacting in a Muslim situation with a male person, it would 2 be useful for you as a translator to know the cultural 3 situation that would dictate that a woman would not usually 4 shake hands with a man, correct? 5 A. Correct. 6 Q. And, thus, to be a translator and to communicate accurately 7 the interaction that is going on, it is helpful to have the 8 cultural context, correct? 9 A. Correct. Can I please add something? 10 Q. If it is responsive to my question, please. 11 A. It just completes your thought. These are examples only 12 giving to show the difference in gender. 13 However, these examples do not show if the person is 14 shaking hands with a male or a female. 15 Q. That was the purpose of my question. Thank you. 16 A. Sure. 17 MR. RUHNKE: May I have a moment, please, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Pause) 20 BY MR. RUHNKE: 21 Q. What is Steve's last name? 22 A. Sorrells. 23 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. BARKOW: 25 Q. Ms. Banout, you were asked regarding the phrase SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4878 48NJSAT1 Banout - cross 1 "unintelligible" by both Mr. Ruhnke and Mr. Tigar. Do you 2 remember that? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. In fact, I think Mr. Ruhnke might have called it inaudible. 5 You actually used the phrase "unintelligible," not 6 inaudible? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. If you have unintelligible, U I, in your transcript, what 9 does that mean for that spot in the transcript? 10 A. It means that I cannot hear this piece clearly enough to 11 translate it, I can't hear it. 12 Q. If you don't, do not have unintelligible, okay, if it does 13 not say unintelligible for a particular portion, were you able 14 to hear and understand that portion? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You were also asked by Mr. Ruhnke about whether you 17 consulted with others, for example, Ms. Benjamin or anyone 18 else, about what you could or could not hear in transcripts. 19 Do you remember that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In the end, whose call was it, whose decision was it to put 22 it in your transcripts that you signed off on? 23 A. Mine. 24 Q. If you disagreed or didn't hear what someone else told you 25 they heard, what would you do? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4879 48NJSAT1 Banout - redirect 1 A. I tried, I gave it another try to do the best I can, and if 2 I still can't hear it, it is U I. 3 Q. Now, you were asked by Mr. Tigar just at the end about 4 cultural context or cultural understanding in terms of 5 handshaking. Do you remember that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. For the example that you gave on 3501 E, the exhibit -- 8 MR. TIGAR: 3507. 9 BY MR. BARKOW: 10 Q. 3507 E, if I could put this before the witness on the 11 stand, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (Pause) 14 BY MR. BARKOW: 15 Q. Ms. Banout, this is 3507 E, okay? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. For that document and for that example, did you need to 18 know anything about cultural context in order to construct that 19 sentence? 20 A. No. 21 Q. If you're translating words like this, do you need to 22 understand the difference between hayakol and hatakol? 23 Do you need to understand anything about cultural 24 context to know one refers to he will eat and the other refers 25 to she will eat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4880 48NJSAT1 Banout - redirect 1 A. No. That is a linguistic issue. It has nothing to do with 2 culture. 3 Q. Is that true for words and phrases other than he will eat 4 and she will eat, it is a linguistic matter? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Finally, you were asked by Mr. Tigar about the phrases 7 "interrupted transmission" and "brief pause." I will ask you 8 questions about that. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. "Brief pause," first of all, what does that mean? 11 Can you just explain what that means in terms of what 12 you heard in the conversation. 13 A. It means when the two speakers stop talking for seconds, so 14 they stop briefly and there is room to talk. 15 Q. Does it mean and did it mean to you that there was any kind 16 of problem with the recording? 17 A. No, it has nothing to do with problems at all. 18 Q. So it just means they weren't speaking? 19 A. Exactly. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken. 21 BY MR. BARKOW: 22 Q. I am going to do something a little exercise. I am going 23 to say one and I am going to say two, okay? I want you to 24 listen to them. One. 25 A. Okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4881 48NJSAT1 Banout - redirect 1 Q. Two. How would you transcribe that? 2 A. There is a brief pause between the one and two. 3 Q. Now, you also had "interrupted transmission," you were 4 asked about that. How does that relate, if at all, to 5 technical problems? 6 A. Technicalities are a little bit difficult to explain, but 7 I'll try. When the transmission, when the conversation becomes 8 intermittent, like you hear it stop and say a little something 9 and it stops again, a little something, that is what it is. 10 Q. What do you mean by, "a little something"? 11 A. Like you hear like streaks of noise sometimes like two 12 letters, kind of static noise accompanying that. 13 Q. That is for interrupted transmission or for technical 14 problem, or for both? 15 A. Both. 16 Q. Now, you have testified before that you listened to many, 17 many calls, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, how often or how frequently were there technical 20 problems or interrupted transmissions in the calls you listened 21 to? 22 A. Very small portion, I would say. 23 Q. So let's just talk about that very small portion of calls 24 where there actually were technical problems or interrupted 25 transmissions, okay? I just want to ask you about that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4882 48NJSAT1 Banout - redirect 1 With respect to those, that small portion, were you 2 able to tell, as someone listening to the recording, whether 3 the technical problem or interrupted transmission was on the 4 end of the people who you were listening to or on your end? 5 A. Yes, I can tell whether it is my end or their end. 6 Q. How can you tell? 7 A. I can tell because if they are talking, like the flow of 8 their conversation is not interrupted, when they do not ask 9 each other questions about excuse me, can you please say that 10 again, sometimes this connection is kind of bad, can I call you 11 later, if I don't hear all of that, and when the flow of the 12 conversation is going on fine, then I know that the problem is 13 not at that end. 14 Q. If, on the other hand, you hear them saying excuse me, can 15 you say that again, repeat that, what do you conclude from 16 that? 17 A. I conclude that they have a problem the same as I do. 18 Q. Did you distinguish between those two different situations 19 in your transcripts when you put "technical problem" or did you 20 just put "technical problem"? 21 A. I just put "technical problems." 22 Q. Can you estimate proportionality, a percentage, if you can, 23 about how often it was that the problem was on their end, so to 24 speak, versus the problem was on your end? 25 A. The problem at my end roughly will be 5 percent. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4883 48NJSAT1 Banout - redirect 1 Q. And that would be 95 percent for the problems on their end? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. BARKOW: May I have just a moment, your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (Pause). 6 MR. BARKOW: Nothing further, your Honor. 7 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: All right. Limited to redirect. 9 RECROSS EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. TIGAR: 11 Q. Ms. Banout, regardless of which end you thought the problem 12 was, you would make a recording of technical problem, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You would make that in a manner which you have described, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. If the jurors are reading the transcript, one way to tell 18 when they see the words "technical problem" is to see if there 19 are words like excuse me, call you later, can you repeat that, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. If you thought the problem was not at your end, you would 23 have seen those words in there, correct? 24 A. Correct. 25 Q. And you would have noted them in the translation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4884 48NJSAT1 Banout - recross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. You used the figures 5 percent and 95 percent, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How many telephone calls related to this case have you 5 translated either in draft or in final in the 8 years you have 6 been working on it? 7 A. Problems, I can't give you an exact figure, but there are 8 problems, of course. 9 Q. More than 10,000? 10 A. Possible. 11 Q. The surest way to tell for us to tell what the technical 12 problems were and why they arose would be to look at the 13 reports that you made each time you found them, correct? 14 MR. BARKOW: Objection. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 MR. TIGAR: No further questions. 17 MR. BARKOW: No further questions. 18 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Banout, you are excused. 19 You may step down. 20 (Witness excused) 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4885 48NLSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we request 2 permission to publish to the jury and read to the jury 3 Government Exhibit 1089X, which is in evidence. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. BARKOW: And your Honor, we'd ask permission to 6 have Mr. Forkner -- I'm sorry, Mr. Forkner come to the witness 7 stand, and also Miss Friedlander to step up to the podium. 8 THE COURT: All right. Before you do that -- have a 9 seat -- would this be a convenient time to deal with the issue 10 of Government Exhibits 1700 through 1725? 11 MR. BARKOW: We could do that, your Honor, yes. 12 THE COURT: I don't want to -- 13 MR. BARKOW: We could do it after this call, too. I 14 think that might be the preferable course. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we put this on the 17 screen? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. BARKOW: This is a call on May 18th of 2000 at 20 9:33 p.m. Mr. Forkner will be reading the lines of Ahmed Abdel 21 Sattar, Ms. Friedlander will be reading the lines of Lynne 22 Stewart, and I will be reading the lines of Mohommad Sattar, 23 Lisa Abdel Sattar, Firas Jandali and Ralph Poynter. 24 May we proceed, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4886 48NLSAT2 1 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1089X, in evidence, 2 was displayed and read to the jury) 3 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may Mr. Forkner step down, 4 please? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 7 will offer into evidence Government Exhibits 1700 through 1725, 8 to the extent that those recordings correspond with the 9 excerpted transcripts which will be published to the jury and 10 offered into evidence. 11 The government would also offer into evidence at this 12 time, with the same qualification, Government Exhibits 1706C, 13 1706C2, 1710C, 1713C, 1711C, 1714C, and 1712C. I believe those 14 are already in evidence, your Honor, but I just wanted to make 15 sure that the qualification with respect to the correspondence 16 to the transcripts was stated. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I believe instead of 18 "corresponded" I believe the words are "are reflected in". The 19 exhibits are reflected in. 20 THE COURT: That's fine. All right. Government 21 Exhibits 1700 through 1725; and the remaining list that was 22 just read, beginning with 1706C, are received in evidence for 23 the portions of the recordings reflected in the "X" transcripts 24 that will be offered. 25 (Government's Exhibits 1700 - 1725; 1706C, 1706C2, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4887 48NLSAT2 1 1710C, 1713C, 1711C, 1714C, and 1712C received in evidence) 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I'm just waiting for the 3 agreement to be executed. It will be just a second. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 (Pause in proceedings) 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 7 will offer into evidence two stipulations, Government Exhibits 8 1706S and 1750S, and request permission to read and publish 9 these to the jury. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 Ladies and gentlemen, I've already explained to you 12 what stipulations are. They're the agreement by the parties 13 that certain facts are true, and you're to accept those facts 14 as true for purposes of the case. The weight, of course, of 15 any facts -- the weight of any evidence -- is for you, the 16 jury, to determine. 17 There's also a stipulation with respect to testimony. 18 Stipulations with respect to testimony means that the parties 19 agree that if a certain witness is called, the witness would 20 testify as explained in the stipulation. As always -- and 21 you're to take that as true as the witness would so testify. 22 The weight of any evidence is always for you, the jury, to 23 determine. 24 We now have two stipulations offered, 1706S and 1750S. 25 With no objections, Government Exhibits 1706S and 1750S are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4888 48NLSAT2 1 received in evidence. And you may read them. 2 (Government's Exhibits 1706S and 1750S received in 3 evidence) 4 MR. MORVILLO: May I publish them to the jury, your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. You can read them and show them. 7 I think you'll probably want to publish one page at a 8 time without the other page underneath. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Government Exhibit 1706S. 10 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1706S, in evidence, 11 was displayed and read to the jury) 12 MR. MORVILLO: May I read and publish Government 13 Exhibit 1750S, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1750S, in evidence, 16 was displayed and read to the jury). 17 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, the government 18 offers into evidence Government Exhibits 1706X, 1707X, 1710X, 19 1712X, as well as Government Exhibits 1706CX1 and 1706CX2 and 20 1707C2X. And your Honor, at this point it would be appropriate 21 for the instruction that the -- that your Honor gave to the 22 parties this morning. 23 And your Honor -- I'm sorry -- before we continue, I 24 noted I said -- the transcript does not reflect it -- but we 25 also offer 1711X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4889 48NLSAT2 1 THE COURT: Government Exhibits 1706X, 1707X, 1710X, 2 1711X and 1712X; 1706CX1, 1706CX2 and 1707C2X, received in 3 evidence. 4 (Government's Exhibits 1706X, 1707X, 1710X, 1711X, 5 1712X, 1706CX1, 1706CX2 and 1707C2X received in evidence) 6 THE COURT: However, ladies and gentlemen, there are 7 instructions that I want to explain to you because we're 8 dealing here with transcripts that will be shown to you. I 9 understand today there will be recordings and transcripts that 10 will be played and read for you. It would be more than just 11 today. The recordings contain a mixture of Arabic and English. 12 I've previously given you an instruction with respect to 13 transcripts of recordings that are in English, and you are to 14 apply that instruction here. 15 So briefly, as I told you, the transcripts of English 16 conversations are provided to you as an aid to you in listening 17 to the recordings, to assist you in listening to the recordings 18 which are in evidence. The portions of the transcript that 19 reflect the spoken English on the recording are not in and of 20 themselves evidence. Rather than -- in fact, let me repeat 21 that. 22 The portions of the transcripts that reflect the 23 spoken English on the recordings are not in and of themselves 24 evidence. Rather -- or anything spoken in English on the 25 recording. It is the recordings themselves that are in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4890 48NLSAT2 1 evidence. 2 The sole exception to this instruction is the English 3 on the transcripts of the February 19, 2000 prison visit, as to 4 which the parties have agreed that the English on the 5 transcripts is evidence of the spoken English on the 6 recordings. 7 Therefore, when recordings containing English 8 conversations are played, you should listen very carefully so 9 that you can make your own determination of what is said on the 10 recording based on what you've heard. If you think you hear 11 something different from the English that appears on the 12 transcript, then what you hear is controlling. You, the jury, 13 are the sole judges of the facts. 14 Now, as you know, this is the government's case and 15 these are the government's transcripts of the recordings. Of 16 course, the defendants are free to dispute the government's 17 translations of the spoken Arabic or transcriptions of the 18 spoken English in the transcripts through other evidence, 19 including testimony or competing transcripts. In that regard, 20 there is one brief portion on one transcript that you will see 21 where the parties dispute the English spoken on the underlying 22 recording. The government's version of the proper 23 transcription and the defense version of the proper 24 transcription of that portion of the recording are offset side 25 by side in the transcript. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4891 48NLSAT2 1 Please also keep in mind that on their own case, the 2 defendants may challenge the accuracy of other portions of the 3 English transcript. 4 I want to reemphasize that except for the transcript 5 of the February 19, 2000 prison visit, the English portions of 6 the transcripts, including the disputed portion I just 7 mentioned, are not evidence but rather are an aid to the jury. 8 Other than the transcript of the February 19, 2000 prison 9 visit, there is no stipulation or agreement as to the 10 transcription of any spoken English. The recordings themselves 11 are the evidence of the spoken English. So when you listen to 12 the recording that contains the disputed passage highlighted in 13 the transcript, it is what you hear that is controlling. 14 In the final analysis, you are free to accept one of 15 the parties' transcriptions of the spoken English or to reject 16 them both if you think that you hear something different or if 17 you believe that the portion is simply unintelligible. You are 18 the finders of fact. 19 On the other hand, the transcripts of Arabic 20 conversations or portions of conversation embody the testimony 21 of the Arabic translators as to what appears in the recordings, 22 and therefore those portions of the transcripts are evidence. 23 To the extent that you accept or reject the testimony of the 24 witnesses, the translators, you may accept or reject the 25 transcripts of the Arabic conversations. As is the case with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4892 48NLSAT2 1 the spoken English portion of the transcripts of the May 19 and 2 20, 2000 prison visits, there is no stipulation or agreement 3 that the translations of the spoken Arabic in the transcript is 4 correct. The defendants in their own case have the option of 5 presenting conflicting evidence of the meaning of the spoken 6 Arabic or whether a particular word or passage is simply 7 unintelligible. Remember that the jury is the ultimate 8 fact-finder, and, as with all evidence, you may give the 9 transcripts such weight, if any, as you believe they deserve. 10 Again, you are to apply those instructions to the 11 transcripts that are provided to you today, and those same 12 instructions will apply to other transcripts in the course of 13 the case. I will not repeat them before each transcript is 14 given to you, but you are to apply them to each of the 15 transcripts. 16 All right? 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I think we were going to 18 break at about 12:30 today. 19 THE COURT: Right. It is just about 12:30, ladies and 20 gentlemen, And we're going to break for lunch. And we're 21 actually going to break until 2:30. So have a good lunch. 22 I've ordered you lunch a little earlier for you. I hope it's 23 there or shortly will be there. Have a good lunch. 24 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 25 about the case at all and please always remember to keep an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4893 48NLSAT2 1 open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've 2 instructed you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to 3 begin your deliberation. Fairness and justice requires that 4 you do that. Have a good lunch. I look forward to seeing you 5 this afternoon. All rise, please? 6 (Jury exits the courtroom) 7 MR. TIGAR: May I address the Court? 8 THE COURT: Sure. Please be seated. 9 MR. TIGAR: With respect to 1116, I asked Miss Banout 10 about the phrase "interrupted transmission" at Page 9, but of 11 course she had been asked about 1146T on direct examination. 12 Therefore, the contents of it insofar as she prepared them were 13 within the subject matter of her direct. She told me that she 14 did not remember what, in 2000, but in the recent past she sent 15 an e-mail to someone concerning this interrupted transmission 16 which is a technical problem. 17 Therefore, your Honor, that e-mail is Jencks material. 18 Given that we have had so much discussion of these notes in 19 whatever form they were sent to the SO1 squad, I not only move 20 for the production of that Jencks material, I state that it 21 ought to have been searched for, if it exists; ought to have 22 been produced before now. If it no longer exists, its 23 nonexistence ought to have been accounted for before now, and 24 when the government makes some explanation, I respectfully 25 reserve the right to make a further application with respect to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4894 48NLSAT2 1 this matter. 2 THE COURT: All right. Government? 3 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we will make an inquiry as to 4 whether that e-mail exists and is still available. Just so 5 things are clear, Mr. -- Agent Sorrells is not a member of SO1. 6 He's one of the case agents. So this is somewhat different 7 than the others. 8 And to update the Court and the parties on the other 9 issue that arose with respect to the forms that are filled out, 10 we have obtained some of them, they are classified, they're in 11 the process of being declassified. And so this e-mail -- I 12 don't know; I haven't seen it. I would imagine it's not 13 classified. But we can do a search and see if it's still in 14 the system. 15 Just so everything's clear, Agent Sorrells is a case 16 agent; he's not a member of SO1. 17 MR. TIGAR: To the extent the statute requires me to 18 move under Section 3500, I do so, with respect to all of the 19 translators that we have seen. And that is, I think Ms. Banout 20 and Miss Benjamin, of course, the two of them have been there, 21 and I move with respect to the universe of translations that 22 have been received in evidence in this case that they have 23 prepared. Not just the ones that they identified whether they 24 were here. 25 Now, with respect to those that may be said not to be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4895 48NLSAT2 1 within the scope or subject matter of their direct examination, 2 I move -- because they are material to the ongoing dispute 3 about authenticity, and because they were made and kept in the 4 regular course of business, I could seek a Rule 17 subpoena for 5 them. They are materials in the preparation of our defense 6 with respect to the authenticity issue and called for by the 7 compulsory process laws, and Brady. 8 I don't want to be getting up here and doing this in 9 technical fashion, your Honor, but I want to make sure I 10 haven't left some base uncovered. I know that your Honor has 11 referred to the Cuppa case as reflecting the Brady standard, 12 and we'll address that at further length. But for now to have 13 a report about this would be helpful. 14 I'd point out that the classification status of a 15 matter otherwise producible under the Jencks Act, in our 16 respectful view, excuses nothing. It doesn't excuse 17 nonproduction. In fact, it only raises the question why, if 18 this was otherwise producible, why a case agent, your Honor, 19 who ought to know better, doesn't tell us about it and trigger 20 a CIPA hearing. 21 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I'm not sure the Court wants 22 me to take any time to respond to this now. I'll look into the 23 issue. But the Court knows our view on these documents. 24 THE COURT: You can respond. Not now. Okay. You can 25 respond. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4896 48NLSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: Okay. 2 THE COURT: All right. Anything else? See you at 3 2:15. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4897 48NLSAT2 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Are we ready to 5 proceed? 6 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor, we are. Two very 7 brief things: Hopefully our paralegals will be back -- Oh, 8 okay, they're back. 9 This morning when I read the list of 1700 exhibits, 10 the "C" exhibits, I may have forgotten to read 1707C2. That's 11 already in evidence, but the transcript does not reflect that I 12 listed that one as well. So with the consent of the Court I 13 want to correct that. You said -- I'm reading -- "And the 14 remaining list that was just read, beginning with 1706C, are 15 received in evidence for the portions of the recordings 16 reflected in the "X" transcripts that will be offered," and if 17 I neglected to mention 1707C2, then I'd want to mention that. 18 THE COURT: Hold on. 1707C2 is received in evidence. 19 (Government's Exhibit 1707C2 received in evidence) 20 THE COURT: That's with the portions of the recording 21 reflected in the "X" transcript that will be offered? 22 MR. MORVILLO: That's correct. Although I believe the 23 "X" transcript is now in evidence, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Well, reflected in Government 25 Exhibit 1707X. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4898 48NLSAT2 1 MR. MORVILLO: Correct. 2 Just as a matter of proceeding this afternoon, the 3 government would request permission to read to the jury 4 Government Exhibit 1706X and then play the recording of 5 1706C -- X1 and 2, which correspond to the 1706X. 1706X is 6 approximately 66 pages, and that should probably take about 75 7 to 80 minutes to read. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MORVILLO: With the Court's permission, may 10 Mr. Glenn and Ms. Friedlander read? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Also, your Honor, I believe at the end 13 of the break we updated the exhibit list through Thursday, not 14 through this morning. It was being prepared, and we do not 15 have those in evidence this morning. I'm not sure if your 16 Honor has that. 17 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in the jury, 18 please. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4899 48NLSAT2 1 (Jury entering courtroom) 2 (In open court) 3 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Good afternoon, 4 ladies and gentlemen. 5 JURORS: Good afternoon. 6 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 7 Ladies and gentlemen, one initial announcement: 8 Government Exhibit 1707C2 is received in evidence for the 9 portion of the recording reflected in Government Exhibit 1707X. 10 All right? 11 MR. BARKOW: Request permission to publish to the jury 12 Government Exhibit 1706X and to read it to the jury? 13 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1706X in 14 evidence? 15 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor, this is a 16 recording of a visit to Minnesota on May 19th of 2000, 17 Videotape 1. I will be reading the lines of Omar Abdel Rahman, 18 Mr. Glenn will be reading the lines of Mohammed Yousry, and 19 Ms. Friedlander will be reading the lines of Lynne Stewart. 20 May we proceed? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1706X, in evidence, 23 was displayed and read to the jury) 24 THE COURT: Hold on, whoa. Keep your voice up. Is 25 there another microphone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4900 48NLSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: There's only one, but we'll bring it 2 closer to us. 3 THE COURT: All right. Speak into the microphone and 4 keep your voice up. Thank you. 5 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1706X, in evidence, 6 was displayed and read to the jury) 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4901 48NJSAT3 1 (At this time, Government Exhibit 17O6 X was displayed 2 and read) 3 THE COURT: It is a little after 3:30, so why don't we 4 take our mid-afternoon break. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 6 instructions not to talk about the case and keep an open mind. 7 (Jury excused) 8 THE COURT: You may step down. Please be seated just 9 for a moment. Everyone is following along with the transcript 10 that is on the screens. The transcript that I was given for 11 the book does not correspond precisely. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the reason for that, it does 13 is substance, but the pagination is slightly different. 14 The reason for that is when we create a document in 15 Word Perfect, and in order to display it on screen, we have to 16 convert it to a PDF file. That process does not change the 17 substance of it, but it repaginates it for some reason. It is 18 identical in the words, the same file. It is just converted to 19 another format. 20 THE COURT: All right. I haven't checked every word. 21 I thought I had come across one earlier which was not the same. 22 I could be mistaken. 23 MR. BARKOW: It should be the same, your Honor. All 24 we do is give it a command to print from Word Perfect into an 25 Adobe Acrobat file. That is the only thing that happens to it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4902 48NJSAT3 1 in the process of putting it right to the screen. 2 THE COURT: Does everybody have the 1706 X? 3 MR. BARKOW: Everyone should have the same thing your 4 Honor has in their binders. 5 THE COURT: Everyone has a transcript that is not 6 quite the same as the one that is on the screen? 7 MR. BARKOW: That's correct, your Honor. 8 MR. TIGAR: We would appreciate the PDF file as well, 9 your Honor, and we'll accept it electronically. 10 MR. BARKOW: We can do that. It has been the same for 11 actually for all the calls in the case to some extent. 12 MR. RUHNKE: If we could just ask if the government 13 will transmit the final PDF versions E-mail to all counsel, 14 that will be appreciated. 15 MR. BARKOW: We will do that, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. See you shortly. 17 (Recess) 18 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. All 19 right, bring in the jury. 20 (Pause) 21 THE COURT: I'll see the parties at sidebar. 22 (At sidebar) 23 THE COURT: One of the jurors said that the juror 24 thought that it was Mr. Tigar who was clicking a pen, and it 25 was disturbing. I don't know if it was he or not, but I bring SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4903 48NJSAT3 1 it to your attention. If it is someone else who is clicking a 2 pen or something -- I have heard a clicking, but I didn't 3 associate it with anyone. It didn't bother me. I bring it to 4 your attention. 5 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 6 (In open court) 7 THE COURT: Okay. Bring in the jury, please. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. All right. You 10 may proceed. 11 (At this time, Government Exhibit 17O6 X was displayed 12 and read) 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4904 48NLSAT4 1 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1706X, continuing, 2 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 3 THE COURT: Whenever there's a convenient time, let's 4 break for the day. 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we could stop now. We have 6 four pages. We could stop now or finish the four pages. 7 THE COURT: Why don't you finish the four pages. 8 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1706X, continuing, 9 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break for the 11 day. It's very important, ladies and gentlemen, as I tell you 12 all the time, please, please don't talk about this case at all. 13 Don't talk about it among yourselves, at all; don't talk about 14 it when you go home this evening. 15 Please don't look at, listen to, read anything to do 16 with the case. If for some reason you should see or hear 17 something inadvertently, please simply turn away. 18 And remember always, ladies and gentlemen, as I've 19 always -- repeatedly tell you: Please, keep an open mind until 20 you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the 21 law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your 22 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires 23 that you do that. 24 With that, have a very good evening, and I look 25 forward to seeing all of you tomorrow morning at 9:30. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4905 48NLSAT4 1 Have a good evening. All rise, please. 2 Follow Mr. Fletcher. 3 (Jury exits the courtroom) 4 (In open court; jury not present) 5 THE COURT: Please be seated. Anything further for me 6 before we break? 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have a doctor's appointment 8 tomorrow at 7:30 a.m. I expect it's only going to take half an 9 hour. But if anything different happens, I will telephone the 10 Court's chambers. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. TIGAR: I'm the first person of the day. 13 THE COURT: No, no, that's all right. Don't worry 14 about it. If you could just tell Ms. Shellow-Lavine. And if 15 you are delayed, I won't begin without you. Just leave some 16 word somehow and it's not a problem. 17 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Anything else? See you all 19 tomorrow morning at 7:15 -- 9:15 a.m. 20 Can I talk to counsel briefly? 21 (Whereupon, per Court Order, Page 4906 is sealed:) 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4907 48NLSAT4 1 THE COURT: Court is adjourned to tomorrow, 9:15. 2 (Adjourned to August 24, 2004, @ 9:15 a.m.) 3 o 0 o 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4908 48NLSAT4 1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 2016 and 2016 T . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4838 4 2060 A and 2060 AT . . . . . . . . . . . 4840 5 2060 B and 2060 BT . . . . . . . . . . . 4841 6 3507 E . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4850 7 1700 - 1725; 1706C, 1706C2, 1710C, 8 1713C, 1711C, 1714C, and 1712C . . . . . . 4886 9 1706S, 1750S . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4888 10 1706X, 1707X, 1710X, 1711X, 11 1712X, 1706CX1, 1706CX2, 1707C2X . . . . . 4889 12 1707C2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4897 13 o 0 o 14 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 15 Examination of: Page 16 NABILA BANOUT 17 Direct By Mr. Barkow . . . . . . . . . . . . 4843 18 Cross By Mr. Ruhnke . . . . . . . . . . . . 4861 19 Cross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4872 20 Redirect By Mr. Barkow . . . . . . . . . . . 4877 21 Recross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . 4883 22 o 0 o 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300