4936 48PLSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 August 25, 2004 8 9:35 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4937 48PLSAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Can I see the lawyers, please? 3 (Whereupon, Pages 4938 through 4951 are sealed, per 4 Court Order) 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4952 48PLSAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right, are we ready? Okay. Bring in 3 the jury. 4 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, should the readers take the 5 witness stand? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. BARKOW: Just so the Court is aware, 8 Ms. Friedlander is going to finish the transcript she's doing 9 now but she has another engagement, she has to leave, and we're 10 going to have a different reader for the next transcript. 11 (Jury entering courtroom) 12 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Good morning, 13 ladies and gentlemen. 14 JURORS: Good morning. 15 THE COURT: It's good to see you all. Before we 16 resume, ladies and gentlemen, I think it might be useful for 17 you to know sort of the upcoming schedule with respect to days 18 that we won't sit because we are about to go into a series of 19 months that have a reasonable number of holidays. And we're 20 not going to be sitting on any of those holidays. So for your 21 own planning, you should be aware that, of course, we won't sit 22 on Monday, September the 6th, or Labor Day. And we're going to 23 break on Wednesday, September 15th, at about 1:30, and we're 24 not going to to sit on Thursday and Friday, September 16th and 25 17th. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4953 48PLSAT1 1 We're not going to sit on Columbus Day, October 11. 2 We won't sit on Election Day, November the 2nd. We don't sit 3 on Veterans Day, November 11th. 4 And if the case is still on trial, we wouldn't sit 5 after about noon on Wednesday, November 24th, for the 6 Thanksgiving weekend. And obviously not sit on that 7 Thanksgiving Thursday or Friday. 8 I say "if" we are still on trial because that's still 9 within the period that I mentioned to you back on June the 10 21st, that the trial was scheduled to last four to six months. 11 And I want to let you know that the case is well within that 12 initial estimate. So that's why when I talk about 13 Thanksgiving, I say, If we're still on trial at that time. 14 So that -- for planning purposes, I hope that's 15 helpful to all of you. 16 Okay. Mr. Barkow? 17 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. At this point, your 18 Honor, we'd request permission to continue reading Government 19 Exhibit 1710X, which is in evidence. And to display it on the 20 screen as we do so. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710X, continuing, 25 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4954 48PLSAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may Mr. Glenn step down? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. GLENN: Thank you, your Honor. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4955 48PJSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: At this point, the government requests 2 permission to read a signed stipulation between the parties, 3 which is Government Exhibit 1750 S1, S, like in Sam, and I 4 offer that stipulation into evidence at this point. 5 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1750? 6 MR. BARKOW: Correct, S, like in Sam, 1. 7 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1750 S 8 received in evidence. 9 MR. BARKOW: S1, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right, Government Exhibit 1750 S1 11 received in evidence. 12 (Government's Exhibit 1750 S1 received in evidence) 13 MR. BARKOW: May I publish it on the Elmo and read it 14 to the jury, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1750 S1 was 17 displayed and read) 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point, the government 19 offers into evidence Government Exhibits 1710 CX1, 1710 CX2, 20 1711 CX1, 1711 CX2, and 1712 CX. 21 THE COURT: All right. These are all transcripts? 22 MR. BARKOW: These are, your Honor, these are the DVDs 23 that are the redacted DVDs that correspond with the transcripts 24 of this exhibit. 25 THE COURT: There is no limiting instruction with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4956 48PJSAT2 1 respect to those DVDs because the portions are -- 2 MR. BARKOW: Are admitted in evidence, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: -- Are admitted in evidence? 4 MR. BARKOW: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Government Exhibits 1710 CX 1, 1710 CX2, 6 1711 CX1, 1711 CX2 and 1712 CX received in evidence. 7 (Government's Exhibits 1710 CX 1, 1710 CX2, 1711 CX1, 8 1711 CX2, and 1712 CX received in evidence) 9 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, we request 10 permission to play the DVDs 1710 CX1 and 1710 CX2, which are 11 the DVDs that correspond with the transcript that we just read, 12 1710 X. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. BARKOW: If we could ask the jurors to please 15 place their headphones on, and we will be following the same 16 procedure with the video on one screen and the transcripts on 17 the screen in front of them. 18 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, would 19 you put your headphones on, the dot facing forward, and turn 20 them on. 21 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX1 was 24 displayed and played) 25 THE COURT: We'll take our mid-morning break. We're SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4957 48PJSAT2 1 going to break. Please continue my continuing instructions not 2 to talk about the case at all. Remember not to talk about the 3 case. Remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all 4 of the evidence and I've instructed you on the law. 5 (Jury excused) 6 THE COURT: All right. See you shortly. 7 (Recess) 8 (By Order of the Court, Pages 4958 to 4959 are sealed) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4960 48PJSAT2 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. All 5 right, Mr. Barkow cow, you may proceed. 6 Ladies and gentlemen, we were in the process of seeing 7 and listening to a DVD, so you should put your headphones on. 8 Remember the dot faces forward. Turn them on. When you're not 9 using them, remember to turn them off. All right. 10 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX1 was 11 displayed and played) 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, that was the end of 1710 CX1. 13 We ask permission now to play Government Exhibit 1710 14 CX2, which is in evidence, which is a second DVD corresponding 15 with Government Exhibit 1710 X. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX2 was 20 displayed and played) 21 THE COURT: All right. Stop. Hold on. We'll take a 22 break. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a break for 10 23 minutes. As always, please, please remember my continuing 24 instructions. Please don't talk about this case at all. 25 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4961 48PJSAT2 1 of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, and you've 2 gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. Have a good 3 break. See you shortly. 4 (Jury excused) 5 THE COURT: See you shortly. 6 (Recess) 7 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 1710 CX2 9 stopped working in the middle. We had given the defendants 10 copies of that disc prior to playing it. We also have another 11 copy back at our office. 12 Mr. Ruhnke was kind enough to let us borrow his 13 version of it to see if that would work. That does work. We 14 would like to continue playing the copy that we had provided to 15 the defense in discovery, and we will give Mr. Ruhnke the copy 16 we have back in our office when we get it brought over to 17 court. 18 THE COURT: All right. And this is 1710 CX2? 19 MR. MORVILLO: That's correct, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right. Do the parties agree with 21 that? 22 MR. TIGAR: May I have a moment, your Honor? 23 Yes, your Honor, the parties agree. What the court 24 tells the jury about this is up to the court. This is a 25 duplicate original of a government exhibit in evidence, and I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4962 48PJSAT2 1 am of a view you don't need to tell the jury anything. 2 THE COURT: I would think that that's right. 3 MR. TIGAR: I don't I don't think we need to put 4 Mr. Ruhnke's credibility at issue. 5 THE COURT: No, no. I wasn't suggesting that. I 6 think the only thing I'll tell the jury is, "Ladies and 7 gentlemen, we're now prepared to proceed." 8 It would seem to me that there were some technical 9 problems going back a few lines in the transcript, and I -- 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if I understand, I think it 11 was 10 minutes and 23 seconds. 12 THE COURT: Okay. What page of the transcript are we 13 at? 14 MR. MORVILLO: Page 48, your Honor, line 1. 15 THE COURT: All right. You know, I also note that 16 these transcripts correspond now exactly with -- 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I think -- this is an 18 inference -- I think this is right. I think the first 19 transcripts were in 13 point and this set is 12 point, and for 20 some reason that seems to make a difference. 21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Let's bring in the 22 jury. 23 (Jury present) 24 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 25 All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we're now prepared SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4963 48PJSAT2 1 to proceed, so if you would again put on your earphones with 2 the dot facing out and turn them on. We'll proceed. 3 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX2 was 4 displayed and played) 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I think one of the juror's 6 headphones is not working. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. If you would replace the 8 headphones. Thank you. If anyone can't hear at any time, just 9 raise your hand and we will replace them. Thank you. 10 MR. BARKOW: Should we back up a little bit, your 11 Honor? I don't know when -- 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX2 was 14 displayed and played) 15 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, they're just queueing up to 16 the spot. 17 (Pause) 18 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710 CX2 was 21 displayed and played) 22 THE COURT: Pause, pause. We're going to break for 23 lunch. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to break now for 24 lunch. Please remember all of my instructions. Please don't 25 talk about the case at all. Please remember to keep an open SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4964 48PJSAT2 1 mind until you have heard all of the evidence and I've 2 instructed you on the law and you've gone to the jury room to 3 begin deliberations. We'll break until 2:15. Have a good 4 lunch. I look forward to seeing you this afternoon. 5 (Jury excused) 6 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. I see Ms. Baker, 7 and we'll deal with a couple of items. 8 There were an exchange of letters, dated August 24th, 9 and I endorsed the defense letter that asked for 48 hours after 10 the government finished with its production so that the defense 11 would respond in one, one complete submission. 12 That also just raised in my mind a few related things. 13 One was there was a request on the record the other day with 14 respect to reports by the translators, and Mr. Barkow said that 15 he would look into that. 16 I assume that the response to that would be included 17 in this group of materials, but Ms. Baker was not here when 18 that request was made, so Mr. Barkow should make sure the 19 request is conveyed to Ms. Baker. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the request was conveyed, and 21 the documents have been received from FBI and are under review 22 within our office. I think that it will end up that those 23 documents will be addressed perhaps in a separate letter from 24 the ones that I've been writing, but one way or the other, our 25 response to that is under way. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4965 48PJSAT2 1 THE COURT: All right. I also indicated that the 2 government should provide the unclassified parts of the cover 3 letter that was given to me last week with the first documents 4 that I was asked to review, and the government said that it 5 would give the unclassified parts of that cover letter to the 6 defendants. I don't know if that was done or not? 7 MS. BAKER: It was. 8 THE COURT: All right. And that leads me, then, to my 9 usual entreaty to the parties, in his case to the government, 10 that the parties can always agree on things, and that includes 11 producing more than is otherwise required. 12 As I've said before, I will decide whatever is given 13 to me on the facts and the law and make the necessary 14 determinations, and I realize that there are principles to be 15 applied, there are replies, and I'll do all of that. The 16 parties should always ask themselves if it is necessary for me 17 to review all of this, and is there any reason, even if it is 18 not required that something be produced, that it simply be 19 produced? 20 As I did say the other day also, if I'm asked to 21 review something, I take that as an initial representation to 22 me that the materials do not have to be produced, and I will 23 carefully review them under the law and the facts and 24 everything that has gone on in the case, to make that 25 determination independently for myself. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4966 48PJSAT2 1 It is the reason that I went through a long 2 explanation on the record the other day, so those are my 3 observations on where we are with respect to those issues. All 4 right. Let me talk to the lawyers at sidebar. 5 (Whereupon, Pages 4967 - 4977 are sealed, per Court 6 Order) 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4978 48PLSAT3 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:10 p.m. 3 (Whereupon, Pages 4979 through 4983 are sealed, per 4 Court Order) 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4984 48PLSAT3 1 (Jury enters courtroom) 2 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 3 All right. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 4 JURORS: Good afternoon. 5 THE COURT: It's always good to see you. 6 All right. The government may proceed, and I believe 7 that -- 8 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. We were in the middle 9 of Government Exhibit 1710CX2. So if we could continue from 10 that point, the jurors can put their headphones on. 11 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, put your 12 headphones on. Turn them on, dot facing outward. 13 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1710CX2, in 16 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, take your headphones 18 off. 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 20 requests permission to read to the jury and publish to the jury 21 Government Exhibit 1711X, which is in evidence. It's a 22 transcript. We'd ask permission to have Mr. Glenn and 23 Ms. Lavin come forward to read. 24 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed when you're 25 ready. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4985 48PLSAT3 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is Government 2 Exhibit 1711X, the transcript of a visit to Minnesota, 3 May 20th, 2000. Videotape 2. Mr. Glenn will be reading the 4 lines of Mohammed Yousry. Ms. Lavin will be reading the lines 5 of Lynne Stewart. And I will be reading the lines of Omar 6 Abdel Rahman. May we proceed? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1711X, in evidence, 9 was displayed and read to the jury) 10 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this would be a good time for 11 a break. 12 THE COURT: Okay. We'll take a break now. Ladies and 13 gentlemen, please remember my continuing instruction: Please, 14 don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an 15 open mind until you've heard all the evidence and I've 16 instructed you on the law. Have a good break, and I'll see you 17 soon. 18 All rise, please. 19 (The jury exits the courtroom) 20 THE COURT: All right. See you shortly. 21 (Afternoon recess) 22 MR. BARKOW: Just so we can keep the Court abreast of 23 scheduling, we think what we have left to read will probably 24 take us close to 4:30 if not past it, maybe a little before. 25 If we get to that point, would the Court want us to start SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4986 48PLSAT3 1 playing the DVD if there's five minutes left or something? 2 THE COURT: No, if there's five minutes. If there's 3 10.... 4 MR. BARKOW: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Bring in the jury. 6 MR. BARKOW: If we have just a few pages left and it 7 is 4:30, should we continue? 8 THE COURT: Yes. I don't want to keep the jurors too 9 much beyond 4:30. 10 MR. BARKOW: Okay. 11 (Jury enters the courtroom) 12 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we continue with reading 14 Government Exhibit 1711X? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1711X, continuing, 17 in evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4987 48PLSAT3 1 (At this time, Government Exhibit 1711 X was displayed 2 and read) 3 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, it is 4:30. We are not going 4 to finish this transcript. 5 THE COURT: Okay. We'll break. We'll break for the 6 day. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break for the day and resume 7 tomorrow at 9:30. Tomorrow is Thursday, and we're going to 8 break tomorrow at about noon. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, it is very important that you 10 continue to follow my instructions. Please don't talk about 11 this case at all among yourselves or with anyone when you go 12 home in the evening. Let me repeat an instruction which I have 13 given to you before because it is all so important. 14 Please don't talk to the marshals who are responsible 15 for your transportation, as I've told you, and they shouldn't 16 talk to you. I have already given you instructions about not 17 talking to any of the parties or lawyers. Remember not to talk 18 to any of the court personnel except for Mr. Fletcher. As to 19 Mr. Fletcher, you should never talk to him about anything to do 20 with the substance of the case or what you're thinking about 21 the case. 22 As I explained to you, all of these rules are there in 23 order to protect you and your thinking, to make sure that you 24 don't discuss the case with anyone and that no one looking 25 could think that you were discussing the case with anyone. It SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4988 48PLSAT3 1 is so important that the jurors listen to the evidence and 2 decide the case based solely upon the evidence or lack of 3 evidence and my instructions on the law and that they not 4 discuss the case until they're altogether for jury 5 deliberations. 6 As I repeatedly tell you, fairness and justice to the 7 parties requires that you do that. That is why all of these 8 rules are related. Not talking about the case, keeping an open 9 mind, and also, which I haven't reiterated just now, but which 10 I reiterate every day, please don't look at or listen to 11 anything to do with the case. 12 If you should see or hear something inadvertently 13 dealing with the case, simply turn away. As I told you at 14 length at the beginning of the trial, you, ladies and 15 gentlemen, are in the best position to hear and see everything. 16 You're there for all of the evidence. So please don't look at 17 or listen to anything to do with the case. 18 Your decision has to be based solely upon what you 19 hear and see here in the courtroom when the court is in session 20 and all of you are here. So remember, don't talk about the 21 case, don't look at or listen to anything to do with the case. 22 If you should see or hear something inadvertently, simply turn 23 away. 24 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 25 heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4989 48PLSAT3 1 you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 2 Fairness and justice to all the parties requires that you do 3 that. With that, have a very good evening, and I will look 4 forward to seeing you tomorrow. 5 (Jury excused) 6 THE COURT: You may step down. 7 (The witness left the witness stand) 8 THE COURT: Please be seated. 9 I'll see you all at 9:15 tomorrow morning. Anything 10 else? Have a good evening. 11 (Court adjourned until Thursday, August 26, 2004, at 12 9:15 o'clock a.m.) 13 o 0 o 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 4990 48PLSAT3 1 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 2 Exhibit No. Received 3 1750S1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4955 4 1710CX1, 1710CX2, 1711CX1, 1711CX2, 1712CX . . 4956 5 o 0 o 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300