5115 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 September 1, 2004 8 9:40 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5116 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: May I talk to the lawyers for a moment? 3 (At side bar) 4 MR. MORVILLO: Mr. Paul is not here yet, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 6 MR. MORVILLO: He is here now. 7 THE COURT: My deputy brought to my attention that 8 juror number 2 has classes which -- and there is one class on 9 November 9th from 4:00 until 6:00 and another class on November 10 13th, that begins at 1:30. I'm sure we can work around those. 11 He also, inadvertently, saw where it is, the syllabus 12 for where the juror is going to school, and that's also the 13 same place that he goes to school. But, he tells me that there 14 would not -- it is very unlikely that they would be in the same 15 class until the spring semester, if then. And, of course, if 16 he saw the juror around school, he would walk away. 17 I bring it to your attention. 18 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5117 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. TIGAR: We received, this morning, a new 4 translation of 1151T, a call on June 21st, 2000 between 5 Mr. Sattar and Mr. Salaheddin, and I wanted to inquire; of 6 course Mr. Sattar's statements come in as against everybody, 7 what is the bases of Mr. Salaheddin's hearsay being offered? 8 MR. BARKOW: Context, your Honor. 9 MR. TIGAR: And, by context, your representation that 10 there is no other legally significant capacity which 11 Mr. Salaheddin is said to be involved in the matters under 12 litigation? 13 MR. BARKOW: He is not an unindicted co-conspirator if 14 that's what Mr. Tigar is asking. 15 THE COURT: All right. Anything else before we bring 16 in the jury? Where are we? 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we were going to continue 18 with and finish the segments of the call that we ended with 19 yesterday. I can list the numbers, but they actually should be 20 in the chart that Mr. Morvillo gave the Court yesterday, in 21 chronological order. 22 And then there are the three pieces of Sattar search 23 evidence that I mentioned yesterday. 24 THE COURT: What's the exhibit number that you are 25 going to start with? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5118 1 MR. BARKOW: On the calls? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. BARKOW: We are going with 1132X and then 1133X. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. BARKOW: And the Sattar search evidence comes 6 after 1144X. 7 So, it goes 1143, 1251, 1144, and then the Sattar 8 search. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. BARKOW: In fact, one other thing though, your 11 Honor; between calls 1136X and 1143X we are going to call 12 Ms. Benjamin back as a witness. 13 THE COURT: Ms. Benjamin? 14 MR. BARKOW: Yes; on just to testify about two new 15 transcripts. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, with respect to 18 Ms. Benjamin's testimony this morning, she is going to be 19 testifying about a transcript 1173T, which is in evidence. I 20 believe she testified about it on a prior occasion, but it did 21 not make it into the record. So I just want to clarify the 22 fact that she prepared this transcript. 23 In other words, there was a list that she testified 24 about and 1173T was skipped over on that, but it was offered 25 subsequently the following day by Mr. Barkow as an X-exhibit SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5119 1 and was received in evidence. 2 So, just to close the loop on that, to make the record 3 clear, I am going to ask Ms. Benjamin to testify about it 4 again. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 I have asked this before and the defendants have 7 assured me that they've been doing this also, is to check the 8 government list of exhibits to make sure that it is accurate in 9 terms of exhibits in evidence. Yesterday I began using the 10 most recent transcript status chart and I assume the defendants 11 also checked that to make sure that it is accurate. 12 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: I have not checked the transcript 13 status chart that Mr. Morvillo prepared, your Honor. I do 14 check the government's exhibit list and in fact conferred with 15 both Ms. Grant and Ms. Baker on some changes we have made the 16 next go around. 17 So, I have been checking their large exhibit list and 18 only check the exhibits that are published to the jury as 19 they're being published, against Mr. Morvillo's list. I have 20 not double-checked his independent list. 21 THE COURT: Okay. But you will, as exhibits are 22 published to the jury, recheck it? 23 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Absolutely. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, just so it is clear, the 25 process of creating this chart is what led to the discovery SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5120 1 that this was omitted from the record. 2 THE COURT: I always applaud thoroughness. 3 Okay, let's bring in the jury. 4 (Continued on next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5121 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 5 Government? 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we request permission to 7 continue reading the call that we were reading and ask 8 permission for Mr. Forkner to step forward. 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. BARKOW: And also, your Honor, if Mr. Morvillo can 11 join me at the podium to read as well? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 14 requests permission to publish to the jury and read to the jury 15 Government Exhibit 1132X, which is in evidence. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a continuation of the 18 call we were reading yesterday, it was on June 19th, 2000, 5:46 19 a.m. Mr. Forkner will continue to read the lines of Ahmed 20 Abdel Sattar and I will read the lines of Mustafa Hamza and Mr. 21 Morvillo will read the lines of Mohammed Abdel Rahman. 22 May we proceed? 23 THE COURT: I realize there is one microphone there 24 but, please, keep your voice up and talk into the microphone. 25 Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5122 1 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1132X, in evidence, 2 was displayed and read to the jury) 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 4 government requests permission to read and publish to the jury, 5 a continuation of this call, Government Exhibit 1133X, in 6 evidence. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: May we proceed? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1133X, in evidence, 11 was displayed and read to the jury) 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 13 government requests permission to read and publish to the jury, 14 Government Exhibit 1134X, in evidence. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, this is a continuation 17 of that call. 18 May we proceed? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1134X, in evidence, 21 was displayed and read to the jury) 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 23 government requests permission to read to the jury and publish 24 to the jury Government Exhibit 1135X, in evidence. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5123 1 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, this is a continuation 2 of the previous call. 3 May we proceed? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1135X, in evidence, 6 was displayed and read to the jury) 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 9 government would request permission to read and publish to the 10 jury, Government Exhibit 1136X, in evidence. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. MORVILLO: And for the record, this is a 13 continuation of the previous call. 14 May we proceed? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1136X, in evidence, 17 was displayed and read to the jury) 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 19 government calls Victoria Benjamin. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. MORVILLO: May Mr. Forkner step down? 22 THE COURT: Mr. Forkner. 23 (Witness steps down) 24 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Benjamin, having been 25 previously sworn, you are reminded that you are still under SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5124 1 oath. 2 THE WITNESS: All right, yes. 3 VICTORIA BENJAMIN, 4 recalled as a witness by the Government, 5 having been previously duly sworn, testified as 6 follows: 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I approach? 8 THE COURT: Yes. And you may examine. 9 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 12 Q. Ms. Benjamin, I am handing you what's been marked for 13 identification as Government Exhibit 1151T and 1173T. 14 A. All right. 15 Q. Do you recognize those two documents? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. How do you recognize them? 18 A. I have my initials and the date on each of them. 19 Q. And what are they? 20 A. Excuse me? 21 Q. What are they? 22 A. It's one call from Sattar to Taha and one from Sattar to 23 Salaheddin. Esmat Salaheddin. 24 Q. Are they translations of audio recordings that you 25 prepared? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5125 4915SAT1 Benjamin - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are they, in your opinion, true and accurate translations 3 of the spoken Arabic on the recordings, into English? 4 A. Yes, they are. 5 MR. MORVILLO: I have no further questions, your 6 Honor. 7 MR. TIGAR: No questions. 8 THE COURT: All right, Ms. Benjamin, you are excused, 9 you may step down. 10 THE WITNESS: All right. 11 (Witness steps down) 12 MR. MORVILLO: May I retrieve the exhibits, your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this point the 16 government would request permission to read and publish to the 17 jury Government Exhibit 1143X, in evidence. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. MORVILLO: May Mr. Forkner resume the witness 20 stand? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. MORVILLO: May we proceed, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, Government Exhibit 25 1143X, a telephone call on June 20th, 2000, at 11:19 p.m. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5126 4915SAT1 1 between Ahmed Abdel Sattar and Mohammed Abdel Rahman. 2 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1143X was displayed 3 and read to the jury) 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government requests 5 permission at this time to read and publish to the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1251X, in evidence. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: For the record, this is a continuation 9 of the previous call. 10 THE COURT: Hold on one moment, please. 11 All right. 12 MR. MORVILLO: May we proceed? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1251X, in evidence, 15 was displayed and read to the jury) 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time the government 17 would request permission to read and publish to the jury 18 Government Exhibit 1144X, in evidence. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. MORVILLO: And, for the record, this is a 21 continuation of the previous call. 22 May we proceed? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1144X, in evidence, 25 was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5127 4915SAT1 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point, the government 2 requests permission to publish and read to the jury a few 3 pieces of search material from the search of Mr. Sattar's 4 residence. And we would ask that Mr. Forkner be permitted to 5 step down during this part. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 (Witness steps down) 8 MR. BARKOW: First, your Honor, we would like to 9 present and publish Government Exhibit 2012, which is in 10 evidence, and Government Exhibit 2012T, which is in evidence. 11 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, these 12 exhibits are not offered, not received for the truth of any of 13 the matters asserted in these exhibits. 14 MR. BARKOW: May I read the fax line to the jury, your 15 Honor? This is Government Exhibit 2012. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. BARKOW: 20 June 00 14:56 0000 S1, attention to 18 Ahmad Abdel Sattar. 19 Now, if we can display the whole front page of this 20 document? 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. BARKOW: Now, your Honor, I would like to publish 23 to the jury Government Exhibit 2012T, the part of the 24 translation of this typewritten portion of Government Exhibit 25 2012. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5128 4915SAT1 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. BARKOW: May I read it to the jury, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2012T, in evidence, 5 was displayed and read to the jury) 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5129 491LSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we request 2 permission to publish Government Exhibit 2012, which is in 3 evidence. 4 THE COURT: Was that the end of -- 5 MR. BARKOW: That was the end of the translation of 6 the typewritten front portion of Exhibit 2012, which is in 7 evidence. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is the back of 10 Government Exhibit 2012, which is in evidence. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. BARKOW: Now, your Honor, we request permission to 13 read to the jury the translation of this back handwritten 14 portion of Government Exhibit 2012, which is on Government 15 Exhibit 2012T. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2012T, in evidence, 18 was displayed and read to the jury) 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 20 would request permission to publish to the jury what is in 21 evidence as Government Exhibit 2011. 22 THE COURT: All right. And ladies and gentlemen -- 23 and 2011T, also, right? 24 MR. BARKOW: And 2011T, yes. Thank you. 25 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, these exhibits also SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5130 491LSAT2 1 are not offered or received for the truth of any of the matters 2 asserted in the documents. You may proceed. 3 MR. BARKOW: Thank you, your Honor. May I read the 4 fax line to the jury? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. BARKOW: 20June00 14:57 0000 S.3. And, if we may 7 turn to the next page, 20June00 14:57 0000 S.4. 8 May I read to the jury Government Exhibit 2011T? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2011T, in evidence, 11 was displayed and read to the jury) 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government 13 requests permission to publish to the jury what is in evidence 14 as -- 15 MR. TIGAR: May I confer briefly with Mr. Barkow? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 (Off the record) 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, if I could just actually turn 19 back, based on my conversation with Mr. Tigar for a moment, to 20 2012T and go to the bottom of that document. 21 THE COURT: Yes. Were you done with 2011? 22 MR. BARKOW: I'm sorry, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Were you done with 2011? 24 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. The bottom of the last 25 page of 2012T. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5131 491LSAT2 1 THE COURT: Now we're back at 2012. All right. 2 MR. BARKOW: Just for one second. At the bottom it 3 reads "LS: Written sideways on the margin is..." 4 And "LS" means language specialist. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I now turn to Government 7 Exhibit 2023, which is in evidence, and 2023T? First, your 8 Honor, if I may, I'd like to use the ELMO to publish to the 9 jury the back side of 2023, which is in evidence, and then read 10 to the jury 2023T, which is the translated portion of that 11 typewritten portion. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. BARKOW: This is the back side of government 14 Exhibit 2023T, which is in evidence. May I read the fax line 15 to the jury, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. And, ladies and gentlemen, this side 17 of the exhibit is not offered for the truth of any of the 18 statements contained therein. 19 MR. BARKOW: 20June00 14:54 0000 S.5. 20 Now, your Honor, may I publish and read to the jury 21 what is in evidence as Government Exhibit 2023T, the 22 translation of that typewritten portion? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2023T, in evidence, 25 was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5132 491LSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I now publish to the jury 2 the front of Government Exhibit 2023, which is in evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. BARKOW: And your Honor, there is an instruction 5 with respect to this exhibit which is different than the last. 6 THE COURT: No, I don't believe there's any 7 instruction to be given. Why don't we take a break? 8 Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to take a break. 9 Please remember my continuing instruction not to talk about the 10 case; keep an open mind. Have a good break. I will see you 11 shortly. 12 All rise, please. 13 (Jurors exit the courtroom) 14 (In open court; jury not present) 15 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 16 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the instruction that I was 17 referring to was that -- I believe the Court had said yesterday 18 was subjected to connection, this handwritten portion, because 19 we are not going to say we are offering it as a statement by 20 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. 21 THE COURT: I had left it I was not going to give any 22 instruction on it, I believe, unless asked. And if the 23 defendants wish me to give an instruction that it's taken 24 subject to connection, of course, I'll give that instruction. 25 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. Your recollection is the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5133 491LSAT2 1 same as ours. We thought that, for a number of reasons that 2 will appear in later exhibits, that it was better just to leave 3 it alone and let the parties handle it in their own cases and 4 in argument. 5 THE COURT: That's fine. And -- 6 MR. BARKOW: Then we'd ask that it at least be 7 explained to the jury that the prior instructions do not apply 8 to this part of the exhibit because the prior instructions were 9 that the parts are not offered for the truth. And that is not 10 true in this case. 11 MR. TIGAR: I think that's more confusing than not, 12 your Honor. 13 THE COURT: I agree. I mean, I said when I gave the 14 prior instruction that that applied to that page. You can 15 check in the transcript, but I was fairly careful to do that. 16 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I was getting ready to read 17 the exhibit, so I actually didn't hear the instruction. But I 18 assume that's correct. 19 Your Honor, I think it's going to be potentially 20 confusing to the jury if the instruction that it's subject to 21 connection is not given to the jury. 22 THE COURT: The purpose of a "subject to connection" 23 is at the request of the parties against whom the statement may 24 be admitted for the truth, it's the final element of 25 coconspirator instruction, and it's usually phrased, "limiting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5134 491LSAT2 1 instruction", if asked. 2 MR. BARKOW: Okay. 3 THE COURT: I mean, it's plain, if the defendants say 4 we affirmatively don't want that instruction, which they've 5 said, then the limiting instruction which is to the benefit of 6 the defendants, not the government, should not be given. Do 7 the defendants agree? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor did limit the 9 earlier instruction, not offered for the truth, to this side of 10 the exhibit. So that was perfectly clear. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. TIGAR: And the answer: Yeah, we don't want it. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. TIGAR: For reasons that will become clear later 15 on. 16 THE COURT: Okay. See you shortly. 17 (Morning recess) 18 (In open court; jury not present) 19 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 20 Are we ready to proceed? We were up to reading the 21 second page. 22 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. We have a witness here, 23 Miss Soliman, so we would call her so she can go back to work. 24 And then go back to the other page. 25 THE COURT: All right. Any objection? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5135 491LSAT2 1 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Bring in the jury. 3 (Jury enters the courtroom) 4 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated. 5 Mr. Dember? 6 MR. DEMBER: At this time the government calls Amira 7 Soliman. 8 (Witness sworn) 9 DEPUTY CLERK: You may be seated. Can you please 10 state your full name and then spell your full name for the 11 record? 12 THE WITNESS: Amira, A m i r a; Soliman, 13 S-o-l-i-m-a-n. 14 DEPUTY CLERK: Thank you. 15 MR. DEMBER: May I proceed, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, you may examine. 17 AMIRA SOLIMAN, 18 called as a witness by the Government, 19 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 20 DIRECT EXAMINATION 21 BY MR. DEMBER: 22 Q. Miss Soliman, let me remind you to speak into the 23 microphone slowly and clearly so we can hear your testimony. 24 Miss Soliman, where do you work? 25 A. Excuse me? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5136 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Q. Where do you work? 2 A. FBI. 3 Q. And what did you do for the FBI? 4 A. I'm a translator. 5 Q. And do you have a specific title? 6 A. Language specialist. 7 Q. Why don't you just speak into the microphone. 8 A. Language analyst. 9 Q. And what does it mean to be a language analyst at the FBI? 10 A. I translate and interpret documents and recordings. 11 Q. And do you work with any particular language or languages? 12 A. Arabic, English and French. 13 Q. You translate Arabic into English? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And what type of sources are or materials do you translate 16 from Arabic into English for the FBI? 17 A. Documents and recordings. 18 Q. And how often do you do that? 19 A. On a daily basis. 20 Q. How long have you been a translator or a language analyst 21 at the FBI? 22 A. More than 22 years. 23 Q. And during that period of time, have you always worked 24 translating Arabic materials into English? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5137 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Q. Do you also sometimes do some translation of English into 2 Arabic? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Miss Soliman, would you tell us where you were born? 5 A. Cairo, Egypt. 6 Q. And how long did you live in Egypt? 7 A. 23 years. 8 Q. Can you tell us approximately when was it that you left 9 Egypt? 10 A. 1971. 11 Q. And where did you go to when you left Egypt? 12 A. New Jersey, United States. 13 Q. And have you lived in New Jersey, in the metropolitan area 14 here, ever since then? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What is your native language? 17 A. Arabic. 18 Q. And are you fluent in Arabic? 19 A. Yes, I am. 20 Q. And can you tell us when did you first learn to speak 21 Arabic? 22 A. At birth. 23 Q. And did you learn at home and at school? 24 A. Yes, of course. 25 Q. And did you speak Arabic in your home while growing up? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5138 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Are you also fluent in English? 3 A. I am. 4 Q. When did you first start learning the English language? 5 A. In school, since kindergarten. 6 Q. And have you been speaking and using the English language 7 ever since then? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What language or languages do you now use in your daily 10 life? 11 A. English and Arabic. 12 Q. Now, let me ask you a little bit about your education. You 13 went to high school in Egypt; is that correct? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And what languages did you study in high school? 16 A. English, Arabic and French. 17 Q. And did you receive a high school diploma in each of those 18 languages? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And after high school, did you go to college or attend 21 university? 22 A. I did. 23 Q. And where did you go to college? 24 A. Ein Shams University in Cairo. 25 Q. That's in Cairo, Egypt? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5139 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And could you tell us, what did you study when you were in 3 college? 4 A. French, English literature. 5 Q. Did you eventually receive a degree? 6 A. Yes, I did. BA. 7 Q. What was your degree? 8 A. Bachelor degree of art. 9 Q. And when did you graduate? 10 A. 1971. 11 Q. Now, while you still were in Egypt, did you ever work using 12 your fluency in Arabic and English in any type of job? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. What type of job was that? 15 A. I was a tutor. 16 Q. What did you tutor? 17 A. I tutored English and French, and Arabic. 18 Q. After you were finished in college, was that when you came 19 to the United States? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And before working at the FBI, did you have any other 22 employment positions? 23 A. Yes, I worked in a shipping company called the United 24 States Line. 25 Q. What kind of work did you do there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5140 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 A. I was an accounting clerk and a translator. 2 Q. You translated? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What type of materials would you translate for the company? 5 A. Bills of lading and accounting paper from Arabic and French 6 into English. 7 Q. Now, at the FBI, describe for us what kind of seniority you 8 have now, at the FBI? What is your position? 9 A. I'm a language analyst. 10 Q. And over a period of time you've been at the FBI, have you 11 received various promotions? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And -- all right. At this time the government offers Miss 14 Soliman as an expert in the translation from Arabic into 15 English. 16 MR. TIGAR: We have no objection. 17 THE COURT: The witness can testify. 18 BY MR. DEMBER: 19 Q. Miss Soliman, have you done any translating in this case? 20 A. I did. 21 Q. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 Q. Miss Soliman, I'm about to hand up to you what is in 24 evidence as Government Exhibit 370 as well as a document which 25 has been marked for identification as Government Exhibit 370T. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5141 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Miss Soliman, would you first take a look at the video 2 cassette, which is Government Exhibit 370? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recognize that video cassette? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. How do you recognize it? 7 A. I have my initials on it. 8 Q. Did you view that video cassette? 9 A. Did I what? 10 Q. Did you look at it, did you view it? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Did you play it a number of times? 13 A. Many times. 14 Q. And can you tell us, do you remember what was basically 15 depicted or what is shown on that videotape? 16 A. It was Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, and an interpreter -- an 17 officer in prison was reading in English the SAMs to him, and a 18 translator translating. 19 Q. What language was spoken on that videotape? Or what 20 languages? 21 A. Arabic and English. 22 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to what is the exhibit 23 document which is in front of you, which is marked 24 Exhibit 370T. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5142 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Q. Do you recognize that document? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. How do you recognize it? 4 A. I have my initials on each page. 5 Q. Okay. Did you also date each page? 6 A. Did I what each page? 7 Q. Date. 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. And do you -- can you tell us what that exhibit or what 10 that document is? 11 A. As I said, it's the -- someone reading the SAMs for Sheikh 12 Omar Abdel Rahman, and the translator is translating from 13 English into Arabic for the sheikh. 14 Q. Is the document which is 370T, is that a transcript of what 15 is said on the videotape? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did you help prepare that transcript? 18 A. I did it all. 19 Q. And did you translate the Arabic portion of that videotape 20 into English in that transcript? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And how is the Arabic portion of the transcript depicted -- 23 what you would translate, how is that shown? 24 A. Not underlined. 25 Q. That's the part that's not underlined? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5143 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And it's underlined English? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Is the transcript which we've marked as Government 5 Exhibit 370T before you a true and accurate translation of the 6 Arabic and corresponding portions of the videotape? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Is the translation work on that transcript done truly, 9 accurately and correctly? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. By the way, did you also assist in preparing the English 12 portion of that transcript? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. And did you prepare that, to the best of your ability? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. DEMBER: The government offers Exhibit 370T into 17 evidence, your Honor. 18 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we have a position on this 19 which I would need to communicate to the Court outside the 20 sight and hearing of the jury. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. DEMBER: I can move on to the next topic, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5144 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. DEMBER: 3 Q. Miss Soliman, I'm about to hand up to you two items, one of 4 which is marked Government Exhibit 1730AS; and a document which 5 is marked for identification, both are marked for 6 identification, as -- this one is marked for identification as 7 1731T. Let me first talk about, there's a CD, I believe it is, 8 that I've placed before you; is that correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And that's the one that's marked Exhibit 1730AS; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. Do you recognize that CD? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. And how do you recognize it? 16 A. I worked on it; I have my initials on it. 17 Q. And do you recall who provided that CD to you? 18 A. Scott Kerns. 19 Q. Is he an agent with the FBI? 20 A. Yes, he is. 21 Q. And do you recognize the document which we've marked for 22 identification as Exhibit 1731T? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. How do you recognize that? 25 A. I have my initials on each page. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5145 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Q. Now, did you listen on the CD to the corresponding section 2 that pertains to that -- the transcript which has been marked 3 as 1731T? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And how many languages appeared in that particular -- 6 A. Two, Arabic and English. 7 Q. And did you translate the Arabic portions that correspond 8 to the transcript -- the Arabic portions from -- into English? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And is the transcript which is before you, 1731T -- 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. -- a true and accurate translation of the Arabic portions 13 of that part of the DVD which is 1730AS? 14 A. Yes. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, 1730AS is a CD or a DVD? 16 MR. DEMBER: I'm sorry, it's a CD. 17 Q. And did the translation work you did on that transcript a 18 true and accurate -- truly and accurately and correctly done? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. To the best of your ability? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can you tell us what you're actually listening to on that 23 CD that corresponds to the transcript? What was the -- was it 24 conversation? 25 A. It's a conversation, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5146 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 Q. What kind of conversation was it? 2 A. It's between Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and Lynne Stewart, 3 his lawyer, and Mohammed Yousry, the interpreter. 4 Q. Was that a telephone conversation? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Could you tell from listening to the conversation whether 7 two of those three participants were together in one place? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And who were they? 10 A. Lynne Stewart and Mohammed Yousry. 11 Q. And from listening to the recording, could you tell how 12 they were actually speaking to Omar Abdel Rahman? 13 A. It's a phone conversation. Lynne and Mohammed Yousry were 14 together in one place, and Sheikh Omar in prison. 15 Q. Could you tell whether Miss Stewart and Mr. Yousry were 16 talking on two different phones? 17 A. No, I believe it was a speakerphone. 18 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Personal 19 knowledge? Foundation for how she would know this? 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 BY MR. DEMBER: 22 Q. From your listening to the recording, what did it sound 23 like? Did it sound like they were each on a different phone 24 extension talking to Omar Abdel Rahman? 25 A. No. It seemed like it was in a conference call where the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5147 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 two -- Omar in one place, and Lynne and Yousry in another. And 2 they were on speaker because they were talking together and 3 simultaneously. I could hear them both talking sometimes at 4 the same time. 5 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 (Off the record) 8 MR. DEMBER: Nothing further, your Honor. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may Miss Shellow-Lavine be 10 excused for a moment? I can begin my cross-examination. 11 THE COURT: I'm happy to take a break if you like. 12 MR. TIGAR: May we have five minutes, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a brief 15 break. Please remember my continuing instruction not to talk 16 about the case; keep an open mind. All rise, please. 17 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 18 (Jurors exit the courtroom) 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I was not aware that 370T was 20 going to be authenticated by this witness. 21 THE COURT: The witness can step down. We're taking a 22 five-minute break. And that's fine. 23 MR. TIGAR: That was the only issue, your Honor. It 24 wasn't -- I didn't have this in court. I didn't see it on a 25 list this morning. That may be my oversight. But I needed the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5148 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 little break here to get ready to cross-examine. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 I have a note to myself, also. That after Miss 4 Benjamin testified this morning, you had her identify -- the 5 government had her identify Government Exhibits 1151T and 6 1173T. Are both of those in evidence? 7 MR. MORVILLO: We have not offered -- are you talking 8 about the underlying audio recordings, your Honor, or -- 9 THE COURT: The transcripts. 10 MR. MORVILLO: No, we're going to offer at the 11 appropriate time the "X" exhibits for both. Although, as I 12 indicated this morning, I believe 1173X was previously offered 13 and admitted and the transcript does reflect that they were 14 previously identified by Miss Benjamin. We will reoffer that 15 when we reach that point in the chronology. 16 THE COURT: Okay. You're -- you don't intend to offer 17 into evidence 1151T and 1173T? 18 MR. MORVILLO: That's correct. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. All right. 20 (Brief recess) 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, 370T was not on the list of 22 exhibits that we were told to expect to be authenticated today. 23 A member of our staff had prepared a memorandum for our use in 24 cross-examination when it was presented. It is a mile from 25 here, as we speak. Our application is that the government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5149 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 continue presenting its other evidence and that we would do the 2 cross-examination after the lunch recess, so the 3 cross-examination will all be in one package. 4 THE COURT: Government? 5 MR. DEMBER: We have no objection, your Honor. 6 Just -- Miss Soliman has to come back in the future. If they 7 want to do their cross-examination today... 8 MR. TIGAR: I think in terms of continuity, doing it 9 today would be better. 10 MR. DEMBER: We have no objection. 11 THE COURT: That's fine. I'll just tell the jury for 12 scheduling purposes we're going to continue with Ms. Soliman 13 this afternoon. 14 Okay. So we'll excuse Miss Soliman now. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 16 THE COURT: And Miss Soliman, if you could be back at 17 2:00 o'clock this afternoon. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 20 All right. Let's bring in the jury. 21 (Jurors reenter the courtroom) 22 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, for scheduling 23 reasons, Ms. Soliman will continue this afternoon, and we'll 24 continue with other matters now. All right? 25 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point the government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5150 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 requests permission to publish to the jury Government 2 Exhibit -- the front of Government Exhibit 2023 from the Sattar 3 search that is in evidence, and the corresponding translation 4 of that front part which is on 2023T, which is in evidence. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 THE COURT: That is government Exhibit 2023. 7 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2023, in evidence, 8 was displayed to the jury. 9 MR. BARKOW: And now, 2023T. May I read it? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (At this point, Government Exhibit 2023T, in evidence, 12 was displayed and read to the jury) 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we request 14 permission for Mr. Forkner to step forward to the witness 15 stand. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the government offers into 18 evidence Government Exhibit 1151X. 19 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1151X, 20 received in evidence. 21 (Government's Exhibit 1151X received in evidence) 22 MR. BARKOW: May we publish it to the jury, your 23 Honor, and read it to the jury? 24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have just a moment? 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5151 491LSAT2 Soliman - direct 1 (Off the record) 2 MR. TIGAR: Thank you very much, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. With no objection, Government 4 Exhibit 1151X will be read. 5 MR. BARKOW: May we publish it and read it, your 6 Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on June 21st 9 of 2000 at 4:40 p.m. Mr. Forkner will read the lines of Ahmed 10 Abdel Sattar and I will read the lines of Esmat Salaheddin. 11 May we proceed? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1151X, in evidence, 14 was displayed and read to the jury) 15 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time, with your 16 permission, we'd like to present to the jury and read to the 17 jury Government Exhibit 1152X, which is a conversation on 18 June 21st, 2000, at 4:44 p.m. between Ahmed Abdel Sattar and 19 Yassir Al-Sirri. I will read the part of Al-Sirri. Of course, 20 Mr. Forkner will read Mr. Sattar's part. 21 May we present the transcript to the jury, please? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1152X, in evidence, 24 was displayed and read to the jury) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5152 4915SAT3 1 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time may we read to 2 the jury, and display, Government Exhibit 1153X, which is a 3 conversation on June 21st, 2000, at 5:09 p.m. between Ahmed 4 Abdel Sattar and Yassir Al-Sirri? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1153X, in evidence, 7 was displayed and read to the jury). 8 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time may we read to 9 the jury and display Government Exhibit 1155X, which is a 10 conversation on June 21st, 2000, at 5:30 p.m. between Ahmed 11 Abdel Sattar and Yassir Al-Sirri? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1155X, in evidence, 14 was displayed and read to the jury) 15 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point we would ask if 16 Mr. Forkner could be permitted to step down and we would ask 17 permission to read to the jury and to publish Government 18 Exhibit 1259X, which is in evidence. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 (Witness steps down) 21 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may we put it on the screen? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this is a call on June 23rd 24 of 2000 at 4:42 p.m. Mr. Morvillo will read the lines of 25 Rifa't Ahmed Taha Musa, and I will read the lines of Salah SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5153 4915SAT3 1 Hashim and I will read the lines of unidentified child. 2 May I go to the witness stand? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1259X, in evidence, 7 was displayed and read to the jury) 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 10 time to take the lunch break? There is a piece of evidence 11 that we need to present after Ms. Soliman finishes testifying. 12 THE COURT: All right, we will break for lunch. 13 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 14 instructions. Please, please, don't talk about this case at 15 all. Please remember to keep an open mind until you have heard 16 all of the evidence and I have instructed you on the law and 17 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 18 Have a good lunch, I look forward to seeing you this 19 afternoon at about 2:00. 20 All rise, please. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5154 4915SAT3 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, very briefly. 3 During the last break just outside the courtroom door 4 there was a security officer with, in cammo's with an automatic 5 weapon and those plastic handcuffs and so on. And I just 6 wanted to make sure that no such obvious security is being 7 displayed in this building in the presence of the jury. And I 8 would ask that the marshal service make sure that that is so. 9 I understand why, that people need to patrol the 10 perimeters of the building when they are directed to, but I 11 wanted to bring that to the Court's attention. 12 It is not as a matter of alarm but so that people make 13 sure. 14 THE COURT: There is security around the perimeter of 15 the building. There is no obvious armed security in the 16 courtroom. I am informed that the security officers have a 17 room which is their room in the back corridor and that is the 18 back corridor that the jurors can use for exercise. 19 I have told you, I make every effort to avoid both me 20 and my clerks running into the jurors by making sure that 21 they're in their room or elsewhere when I come and go, but I 22 can't prevent that they would see the security officers who use 23 the room on that corridor if they were taking exercise. 24 If you wish, what I could tell the jurors is, if you 25 want me to say it, that as a matter of course, there is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5155 4915SAT3 1 security around the court house that has nothing to do with us. 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, perhaps we could, defense 3 counsel and government counsel could talk about that over the 4 luncheon recess. 5 THE COURT: Sure. 6 MR. TIGAR: I simply wanted to bring your Honor's and 7 the marshals' attention to it. The marshals have been 8 extraordinarily polite to us and have worked with us, I am not 9 criticizing them at all. It was simply that I did observe this 10 one individual who, unlike the marshals who are dressed in 11 suits and ties in the courtroom, was outfitted in a way that I 12 described who was close to the door, which sometimes remains 13 open during the breaks. That was my concern. 14 The other issue your Honor raises, if we could discuss 15 that amongst ourselves? 16 THE COURT: Sure, we can discuss that after lunch. 17 (Luncheon recess) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5156 4915SAT3 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Can I talk to the lawyers for a moment, 4 please? 5 (At the sidebar) 6 THE COURT: I was going to talk to Juror Number 2 now. 7 MR. PAUL: I'm sorry, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: I was going to talk to Juror Number 2 now, 9 but I see Miss Soliman is on the stand. But she had raised 10 with Mr. Fletcher again whether it's okay for her to be at 11 those classes, and Mr. Fletcher just checked again what the 12 dates of the classes were, and I think there's some confusion. 13 She had said Thursday, November 9th and Monday, November 13th, 14 but those don't correspond. One class was at 4:00; the other 15 was at 1:30. Whatever the dates are, we can accommodate that, 16 and I would tell her that. 17 MR. TIGAR: I would recommend, your Honor, so she's 18 able to fully concentrate on the afternoon, if it's on her 19 mind, by all means tell her now. On behalf of the defense, we 20 have confidence with Mr. Fletcher's probity with respect to 21 this whole matter. We're not the slightest concerned that 22 she'll be in the same vicinity. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. All right. 24 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. 25 MR. PAUL: Yes, Judge. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5157 491LSAT4 1 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: All of you -- 3 MR. TIGAR: Also, there is a lot of obvious security 4 in the building, the marshals are taking care to keep the door 5 shut for that. But if, your Honor, if we could know, what is 6 it that the jurors can see back there, and do we have the 7 assurance that whoever is in there understands that they are 8 not to be saying things or doing things that could have an 9 impact on these proceedings. 10 THE COURT: As I understand it, it's the duty room for 11 the regular security officers for the courthouse. Those are 12 not the -- 13 MR. PAUL: "Men in Black". 14 THE COURT: Those are -- 15 MR. PAUL: This week -- I understand, Judge. I spoke 16 to the marshals as well. 17 THE COURT: But those are not the blue-jacketed court 18 security officers who are regularly in our back hallway and 19 sitting outside the jury room. Nor are they the marshals who 20 are regularly assigned to this courtroom and who come and go. 21 And I'll ask our marshals to assure that the people who use 22 that duty room know that they're to be -- stay away from our 23 jurors. And there's no reason to believe that they would even 24 know anything about this case. But I will tell our marshals to 25 do that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5158 491LSAT4 1 MR. TIGAR: There is a pending order, your Honor, that 2 you issued with respect to the marshals talking to people. If 3 those people, either by posting that order otherwise could be 4 made aware of your Honor's order with respect to it. 5 THE COURT: Sure. 6 MR. TIGAR: That would give us a level of comfort -- 7 it's kind of a Rule 65(d) question that they have notice. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher says they have to walk in the 9 hallway, and there's never been a single incident throughout 10 the entire trial. 11 MR. TIGAR: I understand that, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: But I'll do that. 13 MR. TIGAR: Many years ago there was a situation with 14 a marshal in Judge Gray Johnson Lowe's court, and I think 15 that's made everybody very cautious in this building. 16 THE COURT: No problem. Okay. 17 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 (Whereupon, Pages 5159 - 5161 were sealed, per Court 21 Order) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5162 491LSAT4 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Let's bring in the jury. 3 (Jurors entering courtroom) 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 5 JURORS: Good afternoon. 6 THE COURT: Good to see you all. Ms. Soliman is on 7 the stand. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I'll be questioning, Judge. 9 DEPUTY CLERK: Let me just remind the witness that she 10 is still under oath. Do you understand that? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Sorry. 13 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Ruhnke, you may examine. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. RUHNKE: 16 Q. Miss Soliman, you translated, among other things, a 17 telephone call from prison that took place on June 23, 2000; is 18 that correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's the exhibit marked 1731T that you testified 21 about this morning? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you have that in front of you? 24 A. Not right now. 25 Q. Can I get a copy -- may I approach the witness, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5163 491LSAT4 Soliman - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Do you see that now in front of you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's the document you testified before this morning, 5 correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Did you translate other, similar phone calls from prison 8 involving Sheikh Rahman? 9 A. Yes, I did. 10 Q. And based on your knowledge of the case, are you aware that 11 this was the very first time that a prison call was 12 tape-recorded. Do you know that? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Were you aware of the fact that between 1997 and June of 15 2000, Mr. Rahman would speak with his attorneys approximately 16 twice a week, but that none of those calls were recorded until 17 June 23 of 2000? Were you aware of that? 18 A. I do not recall. 19 Q. Are you aware of the fact that between June 23, 2000 and 20 March, approximately, of 2002, there were approximately 63 21 similar telephone calls that were tape-recorded and 22 intercepted? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you work on all of those calls? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5164 491LSAT4 Soliman - cross 1 Q. Your job was basically to work on the prison calls, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you testified this morning that there appeared to be a 5 speakerphone that was in use; is that correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And just to set the scene, it appeared that Sheikh Rahman 8 was calling from a handset telephone, but that Ms. Stewart and 9 Mr. Yousry the interpreter were participating in the 10 conversation via speakerphone, correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 Q. And I think it's a common experience that speakerphones are 13 less clear, less audible, than handset conversations, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And as you look through the transcript that you prepared of 16 this June 23 telephone conversation, the -- there are portions 17 where Mr. Yousry is reading to Sheikh Rahman materials from 18 Arabic newspapers, correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. If you look, for example, at Page 11 of the transcript in 21 front of you -- could you find that for me? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Many parts of that section, looking at the last paragraph 24 on Page 11, are marked UI. Is that correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5165 491LSAT4 Soliman - cross 1 Q. And UI means unintelligible? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And can you give us an estimate of what percent of that 4 particular newspaper article was simply unintelligible? 5 A. From one paragraph to the other, sometimes it's 50 percent. 6 Sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more. 7 Q. But do you attribute that perhaps to the fact that they 8 were using a speakerphone? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. It made the conversation hard for you to discern; is that 11 correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. This conversation as we have established took place on 14 June 23, 2000; correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you see on Page 10 of the transcript? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. If you'll find that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. That at Line 17, Mr. Yousry is telling Sheikh Rahman, 21 "Lynne had another press conference". 22 A. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Are those the words that were spoken -- 24 THE COURT: Hold on. You have to answer in words. 25 And so -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5166 491LSAT4 Soliman - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I was just agreeing with him that that's 2 what it says. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 Q. So you translated, quote, "Lynne at another press 5 conference", close quote, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you aware from your knowledge of this case that there's 8 an allegation that on June 14, nine days earlier, Ms. Stewart 9 had made a statement to the press or given a press interview to 10 Reuters? Are you aware of that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And so that the reference to another press conference you 13 infer to mean there was a second statement to the press; is 14 that correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, Ma'am. I don't have any more 17 questions for you. Thank you. 18 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 21 CROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. TIGAR: 23 Q. Miss Soliman, do you have in front of you 370T? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Could you -- that is a translation of a videotape; is that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5167 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 correct? 2 A. No. 3 Q. 370T? 370T. 4 Your Honor, may we approach, Mr. Dember and I? 5 A. Oh, sorry. 6 Q. Mr. Dember will deliver that. 7 A. Yes, you're right. 8 Q. And the -- where did you do the translation of that 9 videotape? 10 A. At my desk. 11 Q. And did you have earphones on? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Were you watching the tape at the same time you were 14 listening to the words? 15 A. Yes, I was. 16 Q. Now, I think that it is agreed that this is a videotape 17 that the jurors have already seen. It is a videotape, is it 18 not, of someone reading Special Administrative Measures to Omar 19 Abdel Rahman. Correct? 20 A. Correct. 21 Q. And someone, a prison official, reads the English and then 22 a translator translates, correct? 23 A. Correct. 24 Q. Now, as you looked through the -- as you listened, you were 25 listening to the Arabic words that the translator said, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5168 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you find that the trans later made errors of 4 translation? 5 A. This translator on this particular document. 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. Was very adequate. His translation was clear and 8 understood. 9 Q. Were there other -- did you also translate other prison 10 readings? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Well, you say that it was adequate. Would you please look 13 at page two. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And towards the bottom, the translator says in Arabic, "Oh, 16 your training or education, I really don't know what they mean 17 with the word practice, but they are referring to the things 18 you do or others do", correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. So, did you infer from that that the translator was having 21 trouble rendering the word "practice" into some form that would 22 be understandable in Arabic? 23 A. The translator was not one of the best, but he understood 24 both languages well. And he related the English to Omar Rahman 25 clearly. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5169 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 Q. I understand. You say he's not one of the best, right? 2 A. I can't say he's an excellent translator because his 3 command of the -- I don't know. He was not. Maybe he didn't 4 practice enough. But he was clear. Omar understood. 5 Q. I beg your pardon? 6 A. Omar understood everything. 7 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Rahman about whether he understood 8 or not, correct? 9 A. No, no, I haven't. 10 Q. So let's take a look at the bottom of Page 3. And the 11 official says in English, "And Number 3 concerns that you may 12 solicit additional violent attacks upon others." Right? Do 13 you see that at the very bottom of Page 2? 14 A. Two? Or three? 15 Q. I'm sorry, did I say three? The very bottom on Page 2. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The top of Page 3 contains a translation of that, correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. Now, is that an accurate translation, in your opinion, of 20 the English? 21 A. Let me read it, okay? 22 Q. Of course. Please, take your time. 23 A. No, not accurate, but he -- in the ballpark, he hit. 24 Q. I'm sorry, did you finish your answer? 25 A. Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5170 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 Q. The translator says, The possibility in doing some violent 2 things, and the English is, You may solicit violent acts, 3 correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. So the translator missed that idea about solicit, correct? 6 A. Correct. 7 Q. And in Arabic as well as in English, it is possible to 8 express the idea that there's a difference between doing 9 something and asking someone else to do it, correct? 10 A. I think when you solicit someone to do something is as bad 11 as doing it. 12 Q. That would be a legal conclusion. I was asking you the 13 question whether if you -- if there's a difference between 14 expressing the idea in Arabic, of the difference between asking 15 somebody to do something and doing something? 16 A. There is a difference, yes. 17 Q. Now, would you please then look down to page -- the next 18 page. The official says, "These procedures -- 19 A. What page? 20 Q. Pardon me? 21 A. What page? 22 Q. Three. "These procedures are the least restrictive 23 available." 24 Do you see that? 25 A. No. Are you sure it's Page 3? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5171 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 Q. Yes, Page 3. "Moreover --" it starts. 2 A. Okay, yes. 3 Q. And the translator translates as, "This is the least they 4 could do," correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, would you trans -- if someone said, This is the least 7 restrictive alternative, those words, in English, would you 8 translate them the same way that this translator did? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Further down, about halfway down is -- the word 11 "soliciting" appears again in English, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And the translator didn't translate that, did he, the word 14 "soliciting"? 15 A. He translated them the same way he translated the first 16 part. Doing and soliciting. He couldn't translate the word 17 "solicit". 18 Q. Uh-huh. 19 A. But he gave the meaning. 20 Q. Now, let me ask you this: Do you know, as an FBI 21 translator, whether or not there is a difference in the law 22 between solicitation and the actual doing of the act, as a 23 matter of law? 24 MR. DEMBER: Objection. 25 Q. Are you an expert on that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5172 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 A. With my experience, I -- 2 THE COURT: Hold on. I'll allow the answer. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, with respect to any matters of 4 law, it is the Court that will instruct you on matters of law. 5 And if any witness or any attorney expresses an opinion or view 6 on the law, that is not controlling. What I tell you the law 7 is is what is controlling. 8 The last question was asking whether the witness was 9 an expert on the meaning of solicitation, I think. I'll allow 10 the witness to answer that question. 11 BY MR. TIGAR: 12 Q. You're not here as an expert on the legal idea of 13 solicitation, correct? 14 A. No, I'm not. But can I continue? 15 Q. Well, can we agree that the judge is going to tell the 16 jurors what the law is, and that neither you nor I will be able 17 to contradict him? 18 A. You asked me the question before and you didn't give me a 19 chance to answer. Do you want me to answer it? 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, please, I don't wish to 21 contradict your Honor's instruction. I would suggest that the 22 answer be not taken because it's not responsive. 23 THE COURT: No, but I believe the witness has already 24 answered the question. 25 MR. TIGAR: I'll move on. Thank you, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5173 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 BY MR. TIGAR: 2 Q. Could you tell from the accent of the translator what 3 country the translator was from or what region? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Where? 6 A. Sudan. 7 Q. From the Sudan? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now -- and how could you tell that? 10 A. Because I heard all the dialects, and I know if you are 11 from Algeria, Morocco, Tunis, Sudan, Palestine. I know the 12 differences. Yemen. 13 Q. All of the regions that you've talked about, do they have 14 different dialects? 15 A. Yes, they do, uh-huh. 16 Q. So that although there's one language called Arabic, there 17 are a number of ways in which people express themselves, 18 correct? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. And that's the same as with the English language, right? 21 A. Right. 22 Q. And the same as with the French language? 23 A. Right. 24 Q. In different parts of the world, different people would 25 express themselves differently. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5174 491LSAT4 Soliman 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Thank you. No further questions. 3 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we offered Exhibit 370 in 4 evidence. Counsel's referred to it. I'm here to move it into 5 evidence. 6 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry -- oh, these exhibits. 7 MR. DEMBER: 370, and "T" as well. 8 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. I have no objection to that, 9 your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 370, 370T admitted into 11 evidence. 12 (Government's Exhibit 370, 370T received in evidence) 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. DEMBER: 15 Q. You have Government Exhibit 370T in front of you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. The individual referred to as a translator on that 18 transcript and in that videotape? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Was he translating verbatim, in other words, word-for-word? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. What's the difference between interpreting and translating? 23 A. Interpreting is whatever is said from one person to the 24 other, in the ballpark as a whole, to give them the meaning of 25 the sentence or the paragraph. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5175 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 Q. Translating, what does that mean? 2 A. To translate is to -- it's if it's requested, is 3 word-for-word. 4 Q. How would you characterize the translator on that 5 videotape, is he an interpreter or a translator? 6 A. Interpreter. 7 Q. By the way, from your recollection of reviewing videotape, 8 was he reading from a document himself as he was interpreting? 9 A. No. 10 Q. He was just doing it as he was -- 11 A. He was listening and interpreting. 12 Q. Now, Mr. Tigar just asked you about the dialect of this 13 translator. 14 A. Uh-huh. 15 Q. And are you familiar with the dialect spoken by Omar Abdel 16 Rahman? 17 A. Yes, he's from the same country I'm from. 18 Q. He's from Egypt as well? 19 A. From Egypt. 20 Q. And do you and he speak the same dialect? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And were you able to understand what the translator was 23 saying to Omar Abdel Rahman? 24 A. Yes. Because the Sudanese dialect is not difficult to 25 understand. Very clear. And Sudan and Egypt are neighbors. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5176 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 Very close. 2 Q. Now, Miss Soliman, would you pick up the exhibit, 370T, for 3 a moment please? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Just turn to Page 3, first. 6 A. Okay. 7 Q. And look at the bottom. 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was Abdel Rahman given instructions as to telephone 10 conversation he could have during the time he was -- 11 A. Can you repeat the question? 12 Q. Sure. Was he given certain instructions that were 13 interpreted for him about his use of the telephone and who he 14 could call? 15 A. 370T? 16 Q. 370T. 17 A. The SAMs. 18 Q. I'm asking you to turn to Page 3. 19 A. I have. 20 Q. Look at the bottom of that particular page. 21 A. Oh, okay. 22 Q. All I'm asking is, during the period of time when the 23 videotape was made and the -- your Honor, may I have a moment, 24 your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5177 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 (Off the record) 2 MR. DEMBER: To make it easier, may I display the 3 exhibit on the ELMO and display it for the jury? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (At this point, Government Exhibit 370T, in evidence, 6 was displayed to the jury) 7 BY MR. DEMBER: 8 Q. Now, my question was: During the recitation of the SAMs to 9 Abdel Rahman through the interpreter, was he instructed as to 10 whom he could speak to on the telephone? Was he given those 11 instructions? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let me ask you to turn to Page 5. Could you do that for 14 me? And I'm going to ask you to look at the -- towards the 15 bottom of the page. And I'm going to ask you -- see where my 16 finger is pointing on the screen? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, I'm going to ask you to read the line where my finger 19 is pointed, which is what the translator is saying in Arabic to 20 Abdel Rahman, correct? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. And then continue on two lines down when he finishes that 23 sentence, would you read that to us, please? 24 A. Okay. "Your attorney has to sign an official document 25 which states that they are willing to abide by those SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5178 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 instructions." 2 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you to turn to Page 10 of the 3 document. I'll display that to the jury. 4 A. Okay. 5 Q. And do you see where my finger is pointed? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. During that part of the recitation of the SAMs to Abdel 8 Rahman, was he instructed as to the restrictions on his mail of 9 incoming and outgoing? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And would you read for the translator where I'm pointing on 12 the screen, where the translator gives him certain instructions 13 on those two lines? 14 A. Yes. "Your attorney is forbidden to send your letters to a 15 third party, especially if you had sent them to the attorney." 16 Q. I'll ask you to turn to the next page, Page 11 of the 17 transcript. And about two-thirds -- a third of the way down 18 from the top of the page. Do you see where my finger is 19 pointing? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That starts with, "We are now going to talk about the 22 media --" 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Would you read what the translator states -- says, starting 25 on that line to the very bottom of the page? Just read what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5179 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 the translator is saying in Arabic to Abdel Rahman? 2 A. Sure. 3 Q. Please. 4 A. "We are now going to talk about the media, newspapers, and 5 you are not allowed to talk to or contact or any representative 6 from the media, in person or by phone, by sending a recorded 7 message by mail, or through your attorney or through any other 8 way." 9 Q. I want to ask you to turn to the 12th -- the -- last, 10 Page 12. 11 A. Okay. 12 Q. Again, would you go to the last line on the document, on 13 that particular page? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Where the translator is speaking in Arabic to Abdel Rahman. 16 Would you please read that sentence? 17 A. Sure. "That is the end of, the end of the document, 18 Sheikh. Do you have any questions?" 19 Q. Why don't you turn the page, Page 13, final page of the 20 transcript. 21 A. (The witness complies) 22 Q. And could you continue reading from the top of that page to 23 the bottom what the interpreter is saying to Abdel Rahman in 24 Arabic. Read just those lines for us. 25 A. Okay. "Okay, could you sign, Sheikh, the things are read SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5180 491LSAT4 Soliman - redirect 1 to you earlier?" 2 Q. Will you also read any responses given in Arabic by Abdel 3 Rahman? 4 A. Sure. "Okay, could you sign, Sheikh, the things are read 5 to you earlier?" 6 Rahman said: "No." 7 "Why do you refuse to sign?" 8 Rahman: "I am not signing." 9 "Do you have any questions about the government?" 10 Rahman: "No, and why would I ask you? Tell her, I 11 could ask Reno, if so." 12 "What?" 13 Rahman: "I would ask Reno, the head of the justice 14 department, not letter, she is the one who implemented this 15 resolution, not this one here." 16 MR. DEMBER: May I have a moment, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 (Off the record) 19 MR. DEMBER: I have nothing further, your Honor. 20 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Ruhnke has some questions. 21 RECROSS EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. RUHNKE: 23 Q. The interpreter who was delivering the SAMs to Mr. -- 24 Sheikh Rahman is not Mr. Yousry; is that correct? 25 A. No, it's not Mr. Yousry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5181 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 Q. And did you read anything in the SAMs that say the 2 interpreter must sign the SAMs? 3 A. Did I -- can you say that again? 4 Q. Anything read to the sheikh that said the interpreter must 5 sign the SAMs, that you recall? 6 A. I don't -- no. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 8 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 RECROSS EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. TIGAR: 12 Q. Miss Soliman, you mentioned that this was an 13 interpretation, not a translation. Correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, the official that was on the video was reading a legal 16 document, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, is there a difference in the procedure that an expert 19 translator such as you will use in translating a legal document 20 than the procedure you would use in interpreting consecutively, 21 as here? 22 A. Yes, there would be, yes. 23 Q. And if you wanted to translate a legal document for 24 someone, how would you do that? 25 A. More reflection on, more accurate. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5182 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 Q. You would sit down at your desk and work with the document 2 carefully going over it word by word, correct? 3 A. If I was asked to do so. 4 Q. Yes, if you were asked. 5 A. But this translator here was not asked. He was asked to 6 interpret, to give him an understanding of the SAMs. 7 Q. So that your impression is the translator was not asked to 8 do what I was just talking about, correct? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And then with respect to the prison telephone call on the 11 23rd of June that you translated, correct? 12 A. Correct. 13 Q. How many times did you have to listen to each portion of 14 that to make sure that your translation was accurate? 15 A. Many times. 16 Q. You say many times? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. So you didn't just listen to it once and then write down 19 what you heard, correct? 20 A. Oh, no, no. 21 Q. Because you wanted it to be as accurate as possible, right? 22 A. Of course. 23 Q. Now, would you turn, please, to Page 11 of 370T in evidence 24 and -- excuse me, Page 10. May I display that portion, your 25 Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5183 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Putting that up on the ELMO. You were asked to read some 3 things about mail. Do you see where it says "translator", 4 where my finger is? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that says what, "except for, except for legal mail that 7 is sent to you by your attorney"? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And that the translator did convey, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, the translator also told Omar Abdel Rahman that his 12 conversations with his wife would be tape-recorded, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Did he tell Omar Abdel Rahman that his conversations with 15 his lawyers would be tape-recorded? 16 A. One second. On which page is that? Which page, the wife? 17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, I object to this question. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 Q. The reference to the wife? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. That's Page 6. May I display that, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Do you see down here where my finger is pointing? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. "And they will also be recorded on a tape"? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5184 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 A. Right. 2 Q. And that's just telling him about the conversations with 3 his wife, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. TIGAR: No further questions, your Honor. 6 MR. DEMBER: Nothing further, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. The witness is excused. You 8 may step down. 9 All right. If the lawyers wish, they can come to the 10 stand to retrieve the evidence. 11 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this point the government 12 offers into evidence Government Exhibit 1731T -- or renews its 13 offer, I guess. Offers into evidence 1731T. 14 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 15 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 1731T, 16 received in evidence. 17 (Government's Exhibit 1731T received in evidence) 18 MR. BARKOW: At this point, your Honor, we ask 19 permission to read this and display it to the jury as we read 20 it, and ask that Miss Friedlander be allowed to come forward to 21 the witness stand. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. BARKOW: And Mr. Glenn, if he could come forward 24 to the podium. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if I could just ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5185 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 Mr. Barkow a question. 2 THE COURT: Yes, sure. 3 (Off the record) 4 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, after conferring with 5 counsel, we'd ask -- note that this transcript has English and 6 Arabic in it. We're going to read it only, and we'd ask the 7 Court give the appropriate instruction with regard to Arabic 8 and English in the transcript. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 Ladies and gentlemen, I've previously given you 11 instructions with respect to transcripts, and different ways in 12 which you are to consider transcripts when the underlying 13 recording is in English and when the underlying recording is in 14 Arabic. And you're to apply those instructions here and I will 15 repeat those instructions in my final charge to you. 16 But just to refresh your recollection, I remind you 17 that with respect to the portion of the transcript which is 18 related to the underlying recording, which is in English, the 19 transcript which is before you is -- reflects the government's 20 interpretation of what appears on the recording, which is 21 received in evidence. That portion of the transcript is 22 displayed to you as an aid or guide to assist you in listening 23 to the recording which is in evidence. The typed document is 24 not in and of itself evidence. Therefore, when the recording 25 is played, I advise you to listen very carefully to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5186 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 recording itself. You alone should make your own determination 2 of what you hear on the recording based on what you hear. If 3 you think you hear something differently from what appears on 4 the transcript, then what you hear is controlling. 5 Let me say again that you, the jury, are the sole 6 judges of the facts. 7 With respect to the portion of the recording that is 8 in Arabic, it is necessary -- it was necessary for the 9 government to obtain a translation of those portions of the 10 conversation to translate the portions into English so that you 11 can understand the recordings. The transcript or portion of 12 the transcript of the conversation that is in Arabic embodies 13 the testimony of the Arabic translator as to what appears in 14 the recording. The transcript for that portion is admitted 15 into evidence. To the extent that you accept or reject the 16 testimony of the Arabic translator, you may accept or reject 17 the transcript itself of the Arabic conversation. 18 Remember that you, the jury, are the ultimate fact 19 finder, and as with all evidence, you may give the transcript 20 such weight, if any, as you believe it deserves. 21 And as I say, I will also repeat the instructions with 22 respect to transcripts in my final instructions to you. 23 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, there's also an oral 24 stipulation with respect to this exhibit that I'd like to state 25 before we read it, if I may. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5187 491LSAT4 Soliman - recross 1 THE COURT: Sure. 2 MR. BARKOW: That is that the parties stipulate and 3 agree that the admitted portion of Government Exhibit 1731T 4 resulted from negotiations between the parties, and includes 5 the portions that the government believes are relevant to the 6 issues in this case, as well as those portions that the 7 defendants believe are relevant to the issues in this case. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. BARKOW: May we proceed, your Honor -- oh, 10 actually, this is a call on June 23rd of 2000 at 10:41 a.m. 11 Ms. Friedlander will be reading the lines of Lynne Stewart. 12 Mr. Glenn will be reading the lines of Mohammed Yousry. I will 13 be reading the lines of Omar Abdel Rahman, as well as those 14 lines of Duncan and the AT&T recorded message. 15 May we proceed? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1731T, in evidence, 18 was displayed and read to the jury) 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5189 4915SAT5 1 THE COURT: Is this an appropriate time to take the 2 afternoon break? 3 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my instructions 4 not to discuss the case and keep an open mind. 5 All rise, please. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5190 4915SAT5 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: One juror indicated he needed to use the 3 facilities. You may step down. 10 minutes. 4 (Recess) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we can proceed without 7 Mr. Morvillo. We actually don't know when he is going to be 8 back. 9 THE COURT: Well, we are also waiting on 10 Ms. Shellow-Lavine. 11 MR. TIGAR: We will waive Ms. Shellow-Lavine's 12 presence, your Honor, for this portion. 13 May I just step out for a minute, your Honor? Because 14 I had expected her to be here. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 17 (Pause) 18 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I flag something that we 19 don't need to resolve now? 20 The government and I -- defense -- are talking about 21 whether the government intends now to play this call with the 22 English portion of it. The government does not wish to play 23 the call for the English portions of it. We are trying to 24 figure out if we can get an accommodation on that that perhaps 25 stipulates the English, exactly, or something to that effect. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5191 4915SAT5 1 But perhaps, just so that it doesn't become a question in your 2 Honor's mind when the government doesn't immediately play the 3 call right after they've read it, as has been their practice. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. The instruction I gave to the 5 jury was the instruction that I assumed that called for when 6 played. 7 MR. RUHNKE: We originally asked the government to 8 play this. The government's response was the English really 9 doesn't matter to their case. Our reply was it matters 10 somewhat to us. 11 And so, we are discussing that. That's how it came 12 up. We are not right now asking the Court to require them to 13 play it. We may if we can't work something out. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. BARKOW: I could speak about it now, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Well, just two minutes. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I had actually -- I didn't 18 want to interrupt the Court in its instruction but I had 19 actually said that we intended to read it only. And when the 20 Court started instructing the jury, I came to the table and 21 asked my colleagues and they said that they had heard that and 22 actually the transcript reflected that. But I didn't want to 23 interrupt the Court in the middle of its instruction and so we 24 thought we would wait until the break to tell the Court that 25 what I had said was actually that we intend to read it only. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5192 4915SAT5 1 And defense counsel had heard that when I said it 2 because that's why, just before I started reading, they came 3 over and Mr. Tigar I think said, You're not going to play it? 4 And I said, No. I can't remember what happened after that but 5 it was definitely understood at that point that we weren't 6 planning on doing it. 7 THE COURT: The answer is though clear, to me, right, 8 that unless the parties stipulate, the English can only be an 9 aid to the jury's listening to the tape. 10 And so, unless the parties stipulate that the 11 transcript of the English is in evidence, then the tape, at 12 some point -- the recording at some point has to be played. 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, first of all, we don't offer 14 the English into evidence. We wouldn't mind if -- we don't 15 offer it, we don't care if it comes in. And if the defendants 16 had objected at the point where I said we weren't going to play 17 it, we could have somehow redacted it or not had the English 18 read. I mean, it adds context, but we think it is a waste of 19 time to have this call played to the jury, in our case at 20 least. 21 And if the defendants want to play it in their case, 22 that's -- it is in evidence and that would be fine with us. We 23 have no desire to spend the time to play it in our case and I 24 think -- and that may be the case for the other -- I can't say 25 it to the other calls yet but, for example, with some of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5193 4915SAT5 1 intercepted calls on Mr. Sattar's line there have been snippets 2 of English conversation and we haven't played those because 3 those English lines are not things that we are offering into 4 evidence or that we view as having evidentiary significance. 5 And the same is true from our perspective here. 6 THE COURT: Well, the parties can talk about that but 7 you really can't ask me to give the instruction for me, as to 8 the instruction to be given to the jurors, that this was going 9 to be a transcript read to the jury that contains both English 10 and Arabic. Can you instruct the jury on that? Okay, sure I 11 can instruct the jury on that. 12 MR. BARKOW: I apologize, your Honor. I thought that 13 I had said that we weren't planning on playing it and so I 14 thought that the instruction would be the Arabic is in evidence 15 and the English is not, but. 16 THE COURT: That would have been the first time for 17 that instruction, I think. 18 MR. BARKOW: I didn't expect the instruction at all 19 and, actually, that refreshed my recollection. That's what 20 Mr. Tigar asked me after we said that we didn't intend to play 21 it, he asked for the instruction. I wouldn't have asked for 22 the instruction in the first place. I was the mouthpiece for 23 the request so that's why I didn't think about it. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I did ask whether they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5194 4915SAT5 1 intended to play it, I didn't of course stand up and say, oh, 2 my goodness, they don't intend to play it because the jury was 3 in the box. 4 We do have a position and, particularly in light of 5 cross of this, of Ms. Soliman, we would like pages, the portion 6 reflected on pages 1 through 11 played. That contains 95 7 percent of the English and it shows Ms. Stewart interacting 8 with the prison. It is important to us. 9 And also, that will give the jury a chance to hear the 10 speaker phone situation and that will help them to make the 11 evaluation that was being talked about in the cross-examination 12 that Mr. Ruhnke did but that I thought was a good idea. 13 So, there won't be a stipulation that eliminates the 14 need to play anything, for whatever that's worth. 15 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I think that we might be able 16 to accommodate that but I have to say this. I was told when 17 this whole issue came up during the break since we didn't 18 prepare -- we weren't prepared to play it today, we don't have 19 the equipment in the courtroom today to play it. I don't 20 believe -- we can't do it. Apparently we need a different 21 machine to play it and so we won't be able to do it today. 22 And furthermore, I don't know, we can think about this 23 and talk about it before it actually happens but, again, the 24 government does not wish to play this. This particular issue 25 was not the product of negotiation and we might consider asking SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5195 4915SAT5 1 the Court to tell the jury that it is being done at the request 2 of the defendants or something along those lines. But we can 3 think about that, perhaps, and raise that issue before because 4 we think that it is a waste of time. 5 THE COURT: I suspect you can think about that but I 6 suspect that there would be no objection to a request that one 7 prison recording is played at the request of the defendants. 8 It is not -- but the parties can talk about that. 9 The stipulation that was already read to the jury 10 indicated that it is not the full transcript and that includes 11 portions which both sides -- government and defense -- wanted 12 to include in the transcript. 13 MR. BARKOW: That's mostly right, your Honor. The 14 stipulation, it actually is not an excerpted transcript, the 15 stipulation was intended to communicate that this is the 16 product of negotiation and there are parts that each side 17 wanted in. But it is actually not -- the transcript as a whole 18 is admitted. 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we would object to an 20 instruction, so the defendants are going to play this. 21 I think the admonition of the common law sponsorship 22 rules means that evidence is evidence, your Honor, regardless 23 of the -- 24 THE COURT: No, that's fine. That's fine. I was 25 actually simply thinking back on the defense comments when this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5196 4915SAT5 1 whole series of evidence was produced and the defendants said 2 that they absolutely, positively, had no objections to this 3 evidence going in. And that's why I thought that there would 4 be no objection to that. 5 But that was simply an observation and, as I said, I'm 6 not about to require that. And the parties can talk about 7 where they are and bring the equipment tomorrow. 8 MR. BARKOW: I don't know for sure that we can bring 9 it tomorrow. We have not been prepared at any point to play 10 this because this is on a different medium but we will make the 11 inquiries. 12 THE COURT: Okay. All right, are we prepared to bring 13 in the jury? Okay. 14 Bring in the jury. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5197 4915SAT5 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 We were in Government Exhibit 1731-T. You may 4 proceed. 5 MR. BARKOW: Thank you, your Honor. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1731-T, in 7 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 8 THE COURT: All right? 9 MR. MORVILLO: At this time, your Honor, the 10 government requests permission to read and publish to the jury 11 Government Exhibit 1160X, in evidence. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. MORVILLO: May Mr. Forkner come forward, your 14 Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MORVILLO: And, for the record, this is a 17 telephone call on July 21st, 2000, at 5:21 p.m. 18 Mr. Forkner will read the attributions to Ahmed Abdel 19 Sattar, and if Ms. Griffith may step to the podium and read the 20 attributions to unidentified male and Ibrahim? 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1160X, in evidence, 23 was displayed and read to the jury) 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at this time we request SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5198 4915SAT5 1 permission to read Government Exhibit 1161X. It is a 2 conversation on July 24th, 2000 at 3:49 p.m. involving Rifa't 3 Ahmed Taha Musa and Salah Hashim and unidentified female. 4 THE COURT: All right, Government Exhibit 1161X in 5 evidence. 6 MR. DEMBER: We ask Mr. Forkner to come down and I 7 will step up. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. MORVILLO: May we publish this to the jury, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, for the record, this is a 13 call that's about 23 pages in length. Would you like to stop 14 at 4:30? 15 THE COURT: Yes, just at a convenient time around 16 4:30. 17 MR. DEMBER: I will also read the unidentified female 18 part to start. 19 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1161X, in evidence, 20 was displead and read to the jury) 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we can break here, if you 22 like. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for the day. 25 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions. Please SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5199 4915SAT5 1 remember not to talk about this case at all, among yourselves 2 or with anyone else when you go home this evening. Please 3 remember not to look at or listen to anything to do with the 4 case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 5 simply turn away. Always remember to keep an open mind until 6 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on 7 the law and you have gone to the jury room to begin your 8 deliberations. Fairness and justice require that you do that. 9 Have a good evening, I look forward to seeing you 10 tomorrow morning at 9:30. 11 All rise, please. 12 (Jury not present) 13 THE COURT: All right, please be seated. 14 Anything further from me? 15 MR. TIGAR: No. 16 THE COURT: I will see you all tomorrow morning at 17 9:15. Have a good evening. 18 (Adjourned to 9:15 a.m., September 2, 2004.) 19 o 0 o 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300 5200 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 VICTORIA BENJAMIN 4 Direct By Mr. Morvillo . . . . . . . . . . . 5124 5 AMIRA SOLIMAN 6 Direct By Mr. Dember . . . . . . . . . . . . 5135 7 Cross By Mr. Ruhnke . . . . . . . . . . . . 5162 8 Cross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5166 9 Redirect By Mr. Dember . . . . . . . . . . . 5174 10 Recross By Mr. Ruhnke . . . . . . . . . . . 5180 11 Recross By Mr. Tigar . . . . . . . . . . . . 5181 12 o 0 o 13 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 14 Exhibit No. Received 15 1151X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 150 16 370, 370T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5174 17 1731T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5184 18 o 0 o 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS (212) 805-0300