5552 49DJSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 September 13, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 and a jury 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY, 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER, 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO, 17 ANTHONY BARKOW, 17 ANDREW DEMBER, 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL, 19 BARRY M. FALLICK, 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR, 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE, 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN, 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE, 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5553 49DJSAT1 1 (Trial resumes) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. 4 All right. We're breaking at 12:30 today in order to 5 accommodate the one juror's schedule. 6 I wanted to point out to you at Thursday at the end of 7 the day, I went out the side door towards the back of the 8 courtroom and Ms. Stewart and some others were still there, so 9 I came back in and left through the front. I was trying to 10 open the courtroom. Nothing about that out of the ordinary. 11 I have reviewed the defense submission on the 12 newspaper articles and the Stewart search exhibits, and I had 13 said that the government can submit anything the government 14 wants to submit today. I don't believe I have copies of all 15 the newspaper articles. I have the binder of the Stewart 16 search exhibits, but not the newspaper articles. So if the 17 content of the newspaper articles is something that the parties 18 want me to consider, the government should provide me with a 19 set of the newspaper articles. 20 In the letter dealing with all of those exhibits, the 21 defendant asks to make an ex-parte, in-camera submission with 22 respect to Government Exhibit 2634. As you know, I discourage 23 ex-parte submissions, and I allow them when there's clearly a 24 basis for them, such as defense submissions in connection with 25 the Criminal Justice Act, government submissions with respect SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5554 49DJSAT1 1 to certain FISA and classified material issues. 2 It is difficult to see what the basis for an ex-parte, 3 in-camera submission in connection with 2634 is, particularly 4 since it is an item that was already litigated, I believe, 5 before the special master, and there was then the opportunity 6 to make objections to me from the rulings of the special 7 master. 8 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, the reason for the 9 request was to be able to discuss some of the documents that 10 the special master held were privileged. In order to be able 11 to discuss this exhibit in its context requires reference to 12 materials that were not disclosed to the government pursuant to 13 the special master's determination. 14 THE COURT: But those were disclosed to the wall team. 15 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: We could certainly do a 16 submission and disclose it to the wall team. That would be 17 fine. We just wanted to do a submission and not disclose it to 18 the trial team. 19 THE COURT: All right. I received a letter from 20 defense counsel this morning for responding on the Luxor motion 21 for reconsideration, and also a new motion for severance. 22 When does the government want to respond on the 23 severance? 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, just in light of other matters 25 that we're already dealing with, we would ask to have to have a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5555 49DJSAT1 1 week, until next Monday, although the motion itself obviously 2 addresses issues the court has already ruled on. 3 THE COURT: Monday is fine, and the defense can then 4 reply on Tuesday. Tuesday, okay. The government, Monday; 5 defense, Tuesday. I have the opposition now to the motion for 6 reconsideration on Luxor which I'll consider, okay? 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the first witness today I 8 believe will be Mr. Esmat Salaheddin, and we have worked out 9 pretty much everything about his appearance, except that I 10 wanted to ask him a question. He has received -- may I confer 11 for a moment with Mr. Schulz. 12 (Pause) 13 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Salaheddin has received two telephone 14 calls from the Egyptian Security Services about his proposed 15 testimony here in court. He is very nervous as a result of 16 having received those telephone calls. 17 I would like to ask him whether he received those 18 telephone calls and if they made him nervous. That has to do 19 with the credibility, believability, his ability to remember 20 and relate the events that he is describing, particularly given 21 the political sensitivity of those events. 22 Mr. Schulz objects to my asking his client that 23 question. I thought it better to have a discussion before the 24 jury came in so that it will be resolved. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5556 49DJSAT1 1 MR. SCHULZ: Briefly, we did meet with the prosecution 2 and defense attorneys last week, and it is my understanding we 3 worked out most of the issues concerning his examination. 4 I would just alert the court that there are some 5 confidential source issues that we don't think are going to 6 come up, but depending on how things go, they do exist. We 7 hope to avoid them. 8 The one issue that is unresolved that just arose this 9 morning was the desire of the defense to cross-examine about a 10 telephone call or calls that the witness had with the Egyptian 11 Security. He is concerned about putting all of that on the 12 record. He thinks it will only exacerbate the situation. 13 It will be our position that goes beyond what he is 14 here to testify about, which is the published information. 15 Therefore, we object to anything that goes beyond the specific 16 stories that Mr. Salaheddin has published and the facts in 17 those stories. 18 THE COURT: Does the government have any position? 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the government views the 20 telephone calls by the Egyptian Service marginal, if any, 21 relevance to his testimony. I think it might become more clear 22 after the court hears his direct testimony and perhaps an issue 23 will be brought into sharper focus at that point and the court 24 may think the answer is obvious either way, that the defense 25 should be able to cross-examine or not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5557 49DJSAT1 1 Our direct examination is going to be pretty much 2 entirely asking him what was said to him and what he reported, 3 and so after the court hears that, maybe we can take a short 4 recess and the court can determine the relevance of that 5 cross-examination. 6 THE COURT: Well, all right, I'll take a recess before 7 the cross. I take with seriousness the representations of the 8 parties that they have worked out the possible issues, and by 9 "possible issues," it is one of those issues, one of those 10 issues will be the scope of cross-examination, and the defense 11 counsel says there is one issue with respect to 12 cross-examination, which is these telephone calls from the 13 Egyptian Security Service, and I'll listen to the direct. 14 The scope of cross, I've already indicated, included 15 the credibility, and so the question then would become whether 16 this goes to the credibility of his testimony, and so I'll 17 listen to the direct and we'll take a break before the cross. 18 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, if I may, some of the issues 19 that we worked out I wanted to make the court aware of, if I 20 may? 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 MR. BARKOW: One is that there are going to be four 23 articles in the direct examination that Mr. Salaheddin is going 24 to testify about. The first contains statements by Ms. 25 Stewart. The other three do not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5558 49DJSAT1 1 According to our conversations both with Mr. Schulz 2 and mine with Mr. Tigar, we are proposing to have the witness 3 himself read the statements by Ms. Stewart, but to have me read 4 the statements in the other three articles and ask him whether 5 I've read them correctly. I can explain why, but I don't think 6 there is an objection. 7 MR. TIGAR: I think it is important to explain why, 8 your Honor, in the context of the present conversation. 9 The reason is Mr. Salaheddin does not want there to be 10 an official transcript in which he is seen speaking, reported 11 as having spoken these words because he is afraid of the 12 consequences to him of having been seen to speak these words 13 that were spoken by Mr. Taha. That is the atmosphere in which 14 he lives in his country, and I agreed to that because I wanted 15 to accommodate his own feeling of lack of security in his own 16 country. 17 I do rely or I drew the line about the proposed 18 cross-examination because at that point I thought my obligation 19 to bring out all of the things that influenced how he 20 testifies, how he appears to this jury, should be brought to 21 the court's attention. That is why I think it is important to 22 set that out. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I applaud the parties' 24 cooperative efforts to work out the ways consistent with the 25 order that is consistent with the privileges that are out there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5559 49DJSAT1 1 for Mr. Salaheddin. 2 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, there are two other things I 3 wanted to make the court aware of. One was we're going to have 4 an interpreter present. If we may, there is a seat next to the 5 witness stand. We are not going to use the interpreter with 6 discussion with the witness unless he needs it and asks for it. 7 I was going to actually ask him about the presence of 8 the interpreter as part of my direct examination, to explain 9 why there is a person sitting next to him basically, and he 10 will be there if that is all right with the court? 11 If Mr. Salaheddin needs help in the course of either 12 direct or cross-examination, he will ask for it, and the 13 interpreter will be there. If the court would prefer, the 14 interpreter can stay out in the audience. 15 THE COURT: No, the interpreter can be there, and the 16 interpreter should be sworn. 17 MR. TIGAR: Yes. I have spoken to the interpreter 18 just because he was sitting here and I said hello. It would 19 appear from his description of the work he has done in the 20 past, he is a qualified interpreter; and, thus, we would waive 21 any need to establish that fact within the meaning of Rule 6 -- 22 whatever. My brain is on dial-up as I speak this morning, 23 so -- 24 THE COURT: All right. We'll swear the interpreter, 25 and the witness will be sworn, and you can establish at the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5560 49DJSAT1 1 outset that Mr. Salaheddin has the right to have the 2 interpreter translate anything for him that he doesn't 3 understand or needs the interpreter to communicate. All right. 4 Mr. Barkow? 5 MR. BARKOW: Yes, that is all I wanted to raise, your 6 Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 8 MR. TIGAR: We have no objection to Mr. Schulz 9 remaining in such a place that he can -- whatever. I don't 10 know how your Honor deals with people who are present to be 11 counsel for witnesses, but we have no objection to whatever 12 arrangements are made about that. 13 MR. SCHULZ: Since I think we've worked things out, I 14 am happy to sit behind the sidebar as long as I can be heard, 15 if necessary. 16 THE COURT: That is fine. All right. 17 If Mr. Salaheddin is going to be the first witness, he 18 should take the witness stand and the interpreter should take 19 the seat next to Mr. Salaheddin. 20 MR. TIGAR: They were out of the court during this. 21 Mr. Salaheddin is on crutches and it takes him a few minutes to 22 get who are. 23 THE COURT: All right. Fine. 24 (Pause) 25 THE COURT: Mr. Salaheddin, when you testify, you're SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5561 49DJSAT1 1 going to have to bring your chair farther and talk into the 2 microphone. 3 Mr. Salaheddin, if it is uncomfortable for you because 4 of your crutches to stand up when the jury comes in and goes 5 out, you're welcome to remain seated. All right. 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we could hold onto his 7 crutches, unless he wants to hold onto them while he testifies. 8 He is holding them in his hand. 9 THE WITNESS: That is okay. 10 MR. BARKOW: He will have to handle some exhibits. 11 (Pause) 12 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Salaheddin, is it more 13 comfortable for you to sit rather than to stand when the jury 14 comes and goes? 15 THE WITNESS: I think I can stand. 16 THE COURT: You can stand? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: All right. Call in the jury. 19 Mr. Fletcher said some of the jurors forgotten they 20 were quitting at 12:30. 21 (Jury present) 22 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. Good 23 morning, ladies and gentlemen. 24 THE JURY: Good morning. 25 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. A couple of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5562 49DJSAT1 1 announcements. We're breaking today at 12:30, so we'll be 2 breaking before lunch, and similarly I believe on Wednesday 3 we're breaking early, at 1:30, but I just remind you of that. 4 I'll check again of the time on Wednesday, but my recollection 5 is it is 1:30. It is certainly early that day. 6 With that, the government may call its next witness. 7 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, the government calls Esmat 8 Salaheddin. 9 THE CLERK: Before I swear in Mr. Salaheddin, let me 10 swear in the interpreter. 11 (The Arabic interpreter, Mr. Farid Botros, was duly 12 sworn) 13 THE CLERK: You may be seated. The witness may be 14 seated while I administer the oath. 15 . 16 ESMAT SALAHEDDIN, 17 called as a witness by the Government, 18 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 THE COURT: Mr. Salaheddin, please keep your voice up 21 and speak into the microphone so that everyone can hear you. 22 Maybe you can bring your chair forward a bit. Thank you. The 23 acoustics in the courtroom are not great, so please keep your 24 voice up. All right, Mr. Barkow, may examine. 25 DIRECT EXAMINATION SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5563 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 BY MR. BARKOW: 2 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you please first tell the ladies 3 and gentlemen of the jury where you work. 4 A. I work with the Reuters News Agency. 5 Q. What do you do there? 6 A. I am a reporter and sub-editor. 7 Q. Sub-editor? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That is S U B ? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. What is a sub-editor? 12 A. Editing stories. 13 Q. Written by other people? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How long have you worked for Reuters? 16 A. About 18 years. 17 Q. Before I go further, I want to ask you questions about your 18 understanding of the English language. Do you speak English? 19 Obviously, you do. How well do you speak English? 20 A. Since Grade 1. 21 Q. How would you characterize your understanding of English 22 and your ability to speak English? 23 A. Average to very good. 24 Q. I am sorry? 25 A. Very good. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5564 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 Q. You have seen we have an interpreter here, Mr. Botos. 2 Are you comfortable going ahead without him 3 interpreting for you right now? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Would you let us know if you need something to be 6 interpreted for you in the course of the questioning? 7 A. Yes, please. 8 Q. Let us know, and you can interrupt, okay? 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, in your 18 years at Reuters, can you just 11 describe generally what you do for Reuters, what you have done 12 for Reuters? 13 A. I do reporting and also I have on the desk editing of 14 stories. 15 Q. Where are you based? In what city and country? 16 A. In Cairo, Egypt. 17 Q. Where do you live? 18 A. The same city. 19 Q. Is Arabic your native language? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. I would like to show you some things. 22 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 BY MR. BARKOW: 25 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I am showing you what I have marked for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5565 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 identification and given to counsel Government Exhibits 524, 2 528, 546 and 550. I am putting those there and I am going to 3 leave them there. Would you take a look at those and look up 4 when you're done. 5 A. (Pause) 6 Q. Have you looked at those four exhibits? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recognize them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What are they? 11 A. They are my stories, news stories. 12 Q. Are those exhibits, Exhibits 524, 528, 546 and 550 true and 13 accurate copies of articles that you authored? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Were they written for Reuters? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Under your byline or your name? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Aside from looking at the articles themselves, are you able 20 independently to recall the circumstances surrounding these 21 four stories? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Now, since these stories were published, about 24 approximately how many other stories have you written or 25 contributed to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5566 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 A. I can say in the hundreds. 2 Q. You can put those down now. 3 Mr. Salaheddin, when you write a story and when you 4 interview a person for use of their statements in a story, what 5 is the typical procedure that you use to record the person's 6 comments? 7 A. I use a tape recorder and I take notes. 8 Q. Now, you said you use a tape recorder? 9 THE COURT: I am sorry. Mr. Salaheddin, please keep 10 your voice up, all right? 11 Am I correct that your last answer was you use a tape 12 recorder and you take notes? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Please speak into the microphone. 15 BY MR. BARKOW: 16 Q. Try to project your voice, if you can. You said you use a 17 tape recorder. Why do you use a tape recorder? 18 A. To be sure that the notes I take are correct and the full 19 text of -- 20 Q. Sorry? 21 A. The full interview, the full conversation. 22 Q. Is recorded? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. When when you make this tape recording, do you use it to 25 write a story itself? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5567 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. After you're done writing a story, what do you do with the 3 tape recording? 4 A. I keep it for some time and then I recycle it, I reuse it. 5 Q. For another story? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you still have any of the tapes for these four stories 8 that are in front of you? 9 A. No. 10 Q. You also said that you take notes? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Why do you take notes in addition to taping the 13 conversation? 14 A. It makes it easier to know which parts of the interview 15 I'll go back to the tape. 16 Q. Do you use your notes also when you write your stories? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, do you still have any of the notes that you used to 19 write these four stories? 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. To the best of your recollection, did you use your typical 22 procedure in recording interviews, that is, tape recording of 23 the notes when you wrote these four stories? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these four SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5568 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 articles incorrectly quote any person in the articles? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Has anyone ever objected to you about any purported error 4 or mistake or misquoting in any of those four stories? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, did you write these four articles when the 7 subject matter you were writing about was fresh in your mind? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Did you write them at the time in a manner that correctly 10 reflected your knowledge of what you were writing about? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, at this point I offer these 13 under Rule 803 (5), past recollection recorded. 14 THE COURT: All right. No objections? 15 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard as to the 16 subjection, your Honor. The question of admissibility or not 17 has already been resolved. 18 MR. BARKOW: May I proceed, your Honor? I am not 19 going to get straight into the articles. 20 THE COURT: All right. Let's take it up at the break. 21 BY MR. BARKOW: 22 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, have you ever met Ahmed Abdel Sattar? 23 A. No, I have not. 24 Q. Have you ever met Lynne Stewart? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5569 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 Q. Have you ever spoken to Ahmed Abdel Sattar? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Approximately how many times? 4 A. I can't remember, but just a few times. 5 Q. How so? In person, on the phone? 6 A. Both. 7 Q. What about Lynne Stewart, have you ever spoken to her? 8 A. Maybe once or maybe maximum twice. 9 Q. How did you have that conversation? 10 A. Sorry? 11 Q. How did you have that conversation, in person or on the 12 phone? 13 A. On the phone. 14 Q. I would like to talk to you about the first time that you 15 spoke to Lynne Stewart. What do you remember, as you sit here 16 now, about the circumstances of that conversation? 17 A. It was at home, it was night in Cairo. 18 Q. Sorry, home and -- 19 A. Sorry? 20 Q. You said it was what? 21 A. It was at my home, and I was at home, and it was at night 22 in Cairo. I was waiting for the call. 23 Q. Were you waiting? Did you have anything with you while you 24 were waiting? 25 A. I am sorry? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5570 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 Q. Did you have anything with you while you were waiting? 2 A. I remember I was waiting because I have my tape recorder 3 and have my notebook. 4 Q. Aside from what you recorded and in your article, do you 5 remember anything else about that conversation specifically? 6 A. No. 7 Q. When you had this conversation, you said it was at night? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you know what time it was? 10 A. No, I don't remember. 11 Q. How do you know it was at night? 12 A. It was dark, that is what I can remember. 13 Q. At the time you were having this conversation, were you 14 able to recognize Ahmed Abdel Sattar's voice? 15 A. Yes, I think so. 16 Q. Now, at some point you wrote an article about the 17 conversation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was the date of that article? 20 A. It was June 14th. 21 Q. Of what year? What year? 22 A. Excuse me? 23 Q. What year? 24 A. 2000. 25 Q. As you sit here now, do you remember what day or date the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5571 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 interview actually occurred on? 2 A. No, I don't remember. 3 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MR. BARKOW: 6 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I showing you what I have marked for 7 identification as Government Exhibit 410 and shown to counsel. 8 Is this a calendar of June of 2000? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Can you take a look at this calendar and tell us if you see 11 on here the day of the week, that is, June 14th of 2000? 12 A. Wednesday. 13 Q. You need to speak into the microphone. 14 A. Wednesday. 15 MR. BARKOW: I offer Government Exhibit 410 at this 16 point. 17 MR. TIGAR: No objection. 18 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 410 19 received in evidence. 20 (Government Exhibit 410 received in evidence) 21 MR. BARKOW: I have been told that the overhead 22 project may not be working. I will try to publish this, but it 23 may not be working. May I publish this to the jury? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. BARKOW: This is Government Exhibit 410. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5572 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 BY MR. BARKOW: 2 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, you see on here you just identified June 3 14th of 2000 as a Wednesday? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In your article, did you say and write at that point what 6 day of the week your conversation with Ms. Stewart and 7 Mr. Sattar happened on? 8 A. Wednesday. 9 Q. Now, when you had this conversation with Ms. Stewart, what 10 language was the conversation in? 11 A. English. 12 Q. What language was she speaking? 13 A. English. 14 Q. What language were you speaking? 15 A. English. 16 Q. When you were speaking with Mr. Sattar during the 17 conversation, what language was he speaking? 18 A. Arabic. 19 Q. What language were you speaking? 20 A. Arabic. 21 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 BY MR. BARKOW: 24 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I am now showing you what I have provided 25 to counsel and marked for identification as Government Exhibit SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5573 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 524 H. Would you take a look at that. Do you recognize 2 Government Exhibit 524 H? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What is it? 5 A. It is the same story, June 14th. 6 THE COURT: Please keep your voice up, Mr. Salaheddin. 7 THE WITNESS: It is the same story. 8 BY MR. BARKOW: 9 Q. The same June 14th, 2000 story? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Is Government Exhibit 524 H the same as Government Exhibit 12 524, except that the statements by Lynne Stewart are 13 highlighted in yellow? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Have you had a chance previously to look at government 16 Exhibit 524 H to make sure that the highlighted portions 17 accurately depict those statements, that is, that they 18 highlight those statements by Ms. Stewart and not other things 19 in the article? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I'd like to ask you now if you could read 22 into the record for us -- and please read slowly and loud and 23 into the microphone -- I would like to ask you what did Lynne 24 Stewart say to you as you reported it in your June 14th of 2000 25 article? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5574 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 A. "He is withdrawing his support for the ceasefire that 2 currently exists." 3 "She read a statement which she said he had issued two 4 weeks ago from his jail cell in Rochester, Minnesota which his 5 defense team had held while considering how best to release it. 6 "Stewart said Sheikh Omar had concluded that the 7 unilateral truce observed by the Islamic Group since the Luxor 8 slaughter of 58 foreign tourists and four Egyptians had brought 9 no advantage to Egypt's biggest militant group." 10 "There is absolutely nothing moving forward. The 11 thousands of people who are in prison in Egypt are still in 12 prison. The military trials continue. Executions are taking 13 place." 14 "The people who launch the ceasefire have good faith, 15 but the Egyptian -- sorry -- the government has shown no good 16 faith." 17 "He wants people not to place hope in this process 18 because nothing is moving forward." 19 "Stewart said the Sheikh was completely isolated in 20 jail and was not well treated." 21 "He is held in solitary confinement, but his faith is 22 very strong. They (U.S. prison authorities) may bar me from 23 visiting him from because of this announcement." 24 "Stewart says Sheikh Omar's legal defense team visits 25 him every few months and calls him once a week. He is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5575 49DJSAT1 Salaheddin - direct 1 permitted one call to his wife in Cairo." 2 (Continued on next page) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5576 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 BY MR. BARKOW: 2 Q. Now, Mr. Salaheddin, you can put that one aside. 3 I'd like to ask you now some questions about Rifa'i 4 Taha, T-A-H-A. You have in front of you Government Exhibits 5 528 and 546. Do you have those in front of you? 6 A. Sorry? 7 Q. Do you have those in front of you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. First looking at Government Exhibit 528. Does that article 10 report a statement to you on the telephone by Taha? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And Government Exhibit 546, does that article report a 13 statement received by Reuters via fax made by Taha? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. BARKOW: You can put those down for a moment. 16 May I approach, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I just placed before you what I've marked 19 for identification and provided to counsel Government Exhibit 20 528H. First, have you had a chance to look at Government 21 Exhibit 538H? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what is it? 24 A. It's the same story written on June 18th, 2000. 25 Q. It's the same as Government Exhibit 528? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5577 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And is it the same except that parts of it, that is, 528H, 3 have been highlighted? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And have you had a chance previously to look at those 6 highlighted portions and confirm that the parts that are 7 highlighted are those that are statements made by Taha to you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What's the date of this article? 10 A. June 18, 2000. 11 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 410 to the jury. 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, do you see the calendar in front of you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And do you see what day of the week June 18th of 2000 was? 17 A. Sunday. 18 Q. Now, as you sit there right now, do you remember exactly 19 what day the interview with Taha on the phone occurred? 20 A. No, except it's written on the story that it's Sunday. 21 Q. That it's Sunday? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Salaheddin, I'd like to -- you to follow along. 24 I'm going to read from Exhibit 528H those portions that are 25 highlighted representing what Taha said to you, and at the end SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5578 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 of that I'm going to ask you whether I read it correctly, OK? 2 A. OK. 3 Q. So you have it in front of you. 4 Egyptian Muslim militants may end the two-year-old 5 truce in their struggle against president Hosni Mubarak's 6 government. 7 Told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed 8 location -- Taha told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed 9 location that the group will review its position after its 10 spiritual leader, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, renounced the 11 unilateral ceasefire from his US jail cell. 12 Quote, stopping operations is a human decision that 13 could be cancelled if a majority of the Gama'a finds this is in 14 its interests, especially after the Sheikh's latest 15 instructions in which he withdrew support for the initiative, 16 end quote. 17 Quote, there is no doubt that Gama'a leaders will 18 reconsider their position based on the Sheikh's instructions, 19 end quote. 20 Quote, Omar Abdel Rahman is the emir of the Gama'a and 21 enjoys great respect not only in the Gama'a but in all Islamic 22 factions, end quote. 23 Taha said militant groups had no chance to turn 24 themselves into political parties because Mubarak's government 25 would not give fundamentalists a legal political voice. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5579 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 Quote, I have repeatedly said the regime can never let 2 the Islamic trend play an effective political role through 3 recognized parties, end quote. Quote, it will not let anyone 4 else share in power game, end quote. 5 Taha cited the rejection of requests by three Islamist 6 parties, al-Wasat, Islah and Sharia, for official recognition 7 and the recent suspension of the Islamist-oriented Labour 8 Party, quote, only because it has enjoyed real popularity and 9 advocated issues that embarrassed the government, end quote. 10 Taha said revolution was the only way for Egyptians to 11 get rid of the government and select their own leaders. 12 Quote, when the Gama'a announced the halting of its 13 operations, it did not say it would give up its hostile 14 position of opposition to the Egyptian regime. 15 Quote, in my conviction the only way for the Islamic 16 movement to achieve victory is for Islamic factions to unify 17 their position and mobilize the Egyptian people, led by the 18 army, clerics and university professors, in a revolution that 19 does not stop until the regime is uprooted, end quote. 20 Taha said government harassment of fundamentalists 21 trying to preach their message would force them to take up arms 22 again. He said violence could also come from unknown factions. 23 Quote, as long as the regime continues suppression, 24 detention and torture of preachers, some young men will 25 definitely emerge to save their comrades, end quote. Quote, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5580 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 they may not be from Al-Gama'a. 2 Quote, there are other strong groups that have not 3 approved the ceasefire and there are people like Saber Farahat 4 and Suleiman Khater who belong to no group or organization, end 5 quote. 6 Taha said Egypt could only gain stability by adopting 7 Sharia, spreading justice, ending the state of emergency and 8 stopping the pursuit and detention of preachers. 9 Taha dismissed media speculation about an attempt to 10 remove him from Gama'a's shura council, saying the group 11 deliberately kept the identity of its leaders a secret. 12 Did I read those quotes by Taha to you correctly? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I want you now to put that one down, if you 15 may, and pick up Government Exhibit 528. Do you have that, 16 Exhibit 520 -- 546, I'm sorry. 546. 17 Do you have Government Exhibit 546 in front of you? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. BARKOW: May I approach, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I just placed before you Government Exhibit 22 546H. Would you take a look at that. 23 A. OK. 24 Q. Do you recognize Exhibit 546H? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5581 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 Q. And what is that? 2 A. It's the same as 546. 3 Q. And is Government Exhibit 546H the same as Exhibit 546, 4 except that there are parts of 546H highlighted? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And do those highlighted parts identify parts of the 7 article that are statements in the fax received by Reuters from 8 Taha? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, looking at those exhibits -- actually, do you remember 11 now as you sit here the date of the article? 12 A. No, except it's mentioned here. 13 Q. What was the date of the article? What was the date the 14 article was published? 15 A. Saturday. 16 Q. I'm sorry. So it was Saturday. What about the date, the 17 month and the day? 18 A. October 28th. 19 Q. So it was Saturday, October 28th? 20 A. 2000. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't hear. October 28th? 22 THE WITNESS: 2000. 23 THE COURT: October 28, 2000. Thank you. 24 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, how are these statements from Taha received 25 by Reuters? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5582 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 A. By fax. 2 Q. And was there any kind of notation or signature on the fax? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. What kind? 5 A. His name, signed by -- 6 Q. Whose name? 7 A. Rifa'i Taha. 8 Q. You said Rifa'i Taha? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, do you still have a copy of this fax or know where it 11 is? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Did you use the fax to write the article, Government 14 Exhibit 546? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, what we're going to do now, if you may follow along 17 with Exhibit 546H, I'm going to read to you the highlighted 18 portions that represent the statements. I'm going to read the 19 highlighted portions in Government Exhibit 546H representing 20 the statements by Taha and the fax, and then I'm going to ask 21 you at the end whether I read them correctly, OK. Is that OK? 22 THE COURT: You have to answer with words. 23 A. OK. 24 Q. Rifa'i Ahmed Taha warned the killing of Alaa Abdul Raziq 25 Atia, who he said had carried out major attacks in southern SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5583 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 governorates, would not pass unnoticed. 2 Quote, we will not shed tears over his death before 3 his soldiers take revenge, end quote. 4 Quote, these bullets which hit the martyr's body have 5 hit the regime first, and they have hit the stability in Egypt 6 before they can weaken our determination, end quote. 7 Quote, the regime will not enjoy stability and the 8 hands stretched in treachery and meanness towards the martyr, 9 will not go unpunished, end quote. 10 Quote, while we bear the Egyptian regime fully 11 responsibility for the martyrdom of the hero, Alaa Atia, would 12 you not absolve those who are convinced that fulfilment can be 13 expected from a treacherous regime, end quote. 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, Mr. Salaheddin, would you put those exhibits down and 17 pick up Government Exhibit 550. Do you have a copy of that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What's the date of the article that's Government Exhibit 20 550? 21 A. April 23rd, 2001. 22 Q. Can you say that again? 23 A. April 23rd, 2001. 24 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I've just placed before you what I've 25 marked for identification Government Exhibit 550H. Take a look SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5584 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 at that. Do you recognize it? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What is it? 4 A. It's Exhibit 550. 5 Q. And is 550H the same as 550, except that there are 6 statements by people in them highlighted to indicate what they 7 said? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, does Government Exhibit 550H, the highlighted 10 portions, show statements made by Abdullah Abdel Rahman and 11 Montasser Al-Zayyat? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And before I get into the article specifically, or more 14 specifically, does this article report statements made at a 15 news conference? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And did you attend that news conference? 18 A. Yes, sir. 19 Q. And who spoke at the news conference? 20 A. The lawyer and Abdullah Abdel Rahman. 21 Q. Who is Abdullah Abdel Rahman? 22 A. He's the son of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. 23 Q. You said "the lawyer." Who are you referring to? 24 A. Montasser Al-Zayyat and Abdel-Halim Mandour. 25 Q. Now, I'm going to -- you've looked at Exhibit 550. Does SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5585 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 Exhibit 550H indicate in pink highlighting those statements 2 made by Abdullah Abdel Rahman at that news conference that you 3 attended and that you reported? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. I'm going to read from Government Exhibit 550H those 6 statements by Abdullah Abdel Rahman at the end and ask you if I 7 read it correctly, OK? 8 A. OK. 9 Q. Abdullah said his father was being held in solitary 10 confinement, was not allowed access to published material or to 11 listen to the radio. Sheikh Omar did not even know day from 12 night. 13 Quote, what more cruelty and austerity is there than 14 this? End quote. 15 He said his father was now suffering from persistent 16 high blood sugar levels and high blood pressure and had lost 17 more than 30 pounds in detention. Abdullah said his father was 18 losing the ability to move some of his limbs. 19 Quote, we hold the US government fully responsible if 20 something bad happens to Sheikh Omar, end quote. 21 Did I read that correctly? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. And now Government Exhibit 550H, does it have highlighted 24 in yellow those statements made by Montasser Al-Zayyat? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5586 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 Q. And I'm going to read to you those statements and ask you 2 if I read them correctly, OK? 3 A. OK. 4 Q. Quote, we warn, warn and warn again that the United States 5 will only harvest a bitter crop from the continuation of the 6 inhumane treatment of Dr. Omar, end quote. 7 Zayyat said the cleric was, quote, a symbol of the 8 Islamic movement. He enjoys respect in the Islamic movement 9 worldwide, end quote. 10 Quote, the continuation of maltreatment of Sheikh Omar 11 may lead to an outburst of violence against its, paren, US 12 interests by his many followers, end quote. He specifically 13 referred to the bombing of two US embassies in Africa in 1998. 14 Did I read those correctly? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. BARKOW: May I have a moment, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. BARKOW: I have nothing further, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, this is 20 a convenient time for us to take a midmorning break for about 21 ten minutes or so. 22 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 23 about this case at all and remember always to keep an open mind 24 until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on 25 the law and you've gone to the jury room to begin your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5587 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 deliberations. See you soon. 2 Mr. Salaheddin can step down, take a break. 3 (Continued on next page) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5588 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, even with Mr. Salaheddin on 3 his way of the room, the reason I stood is that the -- I knew 4 that some of this was coming in as past recollection recorded, 5 but I was un -- and I knew that the whole article would come in 6 in some form or another, but it just wasn't clear about what, 7 if any, instruction should attach to it. So I wanted to know 8 the government's position on -- I mean, I assume they want all 9 of these in, 546, 548H, 524H, 546H, 550H, but I haven't heard 10 for what. 11 THE COURT: Why don't we take five minutes and the 12 parties can raise all of these issues with me. OK. 13 (recess) 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we're content with the past 15 recollection recorded, and we ask that -- and with admission on 16 that basis, your Honor, after discussing it with Mr. Barkow and 17 other counsel. 18 There is an issue I'd like to hand up to your Honor, 19 what I've marked as LS40, that I've given a copy up to -- 20 THE COURT: Could I just stop just for a moment. I 21 don't -- is -- the parties have discussed all of this at the 22 break and there was an offer of the complete articles. 23 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I shouldn't have said that as 24 I did. What I meant to do was basically clue everyone in that 25 I was going to be doing a past recollection recorded, but I'm SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5589 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 not offering the actual documents now. 2 THE COURT: Fine. So it's just the statements, and 3 under 803(5) the articles can be read into evidence but may not 4 be received as an exhibit. 5 MR. BARKOW: Correct. 6 THE COURT: So we have the statements read as past 7 recollection recorded and the articles are not being offered in 8 evidence. 9 MR. BARKOW: Exactly. 10 MR. TIGAR: And indeed, the articles as a whole are 11 not being read, only the portions that represent his past 12 recollection. 13 Now, your Honor, we have shown the government what I 14 have marked as LS40, which is an article by Mr. Salaheddin from 15 this same website dated the 20th of June, 2000, and thus 16 appearing in this same sequence. And it contains a number of 17 statements by Montasser Al-Zayyat. Mr. Barkow would like to 18 talk to me first. 19 Your Honor, the government has no objection to my 20 showing this article to Mr. Salaheddin and asking him to 21 confirm that the statements in it attributed to Montasser 22 Al-Zayyat were made to him and that this is past recollection 23 recorded. 24 THE COURT: All right. Have you -- I take it you've 25 gone over that with Mr. Schulz? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5590 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 MR. SCHULZ: Yes. 2 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Schulz. 3 This is the article that Mr. Schulz gave me on Friday. 4 I've just taken it from a different website. 5 MR. SCHULZ: Judge, we indicated when we were trying 6 to work things out with the parties that we would not object to 7 questioning that was limited strictly to published material 8 that was otherwise acceptable to the Court. 9 THE COURT: All right. That means only, then, I take 10 it, the two questions about Egyptian security? 11 MR. TIGAR: Well, two telephone calls with Egyptian 12 security. How many questions there are depends on what the 13 answers are. All I know is that he received the calls and that 14 he's concerned. 15 We take this very seriously, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I take all of this very seriously. And 17 you should confer with Mr. Schulz. It appears to me that -- 18 and I'll listen to the parties, but that some limited 19 examination would be allowed as it affects credibility, 20 credibility being the accurate recounting of statements by 21 Taha. 22 Now, there are -- when I said a couple of questions, I 23 had thought it was a couple of questions that he had received a 24 phone call, a phone call from Egyptian security that he was 25 concerned or nervous about repeating statements by Taha. Now, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5591 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 I have some questions how useful that examination is to the 2 defense, but that's a matter of judgment for counsel. I can 3 see the reasonable argument as to how that goes to matters of 4 credibility for counting the statements of Mr. Taha, so as I 5 said, I can see a basis for limited questions, limited, and 6 that's why I suggest that defense counsel speak to Mr. Schulz. 7 It's -- Mr. Schulz? 8 MR. SCHULZ: Judge, if I can just say very briefly, 9 having seen the testimony, I think it was clear that the 10 witness has no independent recollection of this conversation 11 with Taha and the evidence came in as a past recollection 12 recorded. And I don't see how phone calls over the last three 13 days, are going to affect his past recollection recorded. 14 Our concern is that if you open the door to 15 questioning about things that have happened recently and things 16 that are unpublished, we're not sure where it fits. If it's 17 questions about where are the phone calls or did you receive 18 the phone calls and did they make you nervous, then there's 19 going to be questions about what was the substance of those. 20 And we're going to be off into a whole debate about something 21 that really has no bearing on his testimony. 22 His testimony is that he wrote the stories and the 23 stories say what they say. His current state of mind and 24 whether he's nervous about being a witness today and whether 25 he's nervous because he's never been a witness before or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5592 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 whether he's nervous because he happened to make a phone call, 2 about whether the Vienna Accords have been complied with is 3 really irrelevant. 4 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I'll just say briefly that we 5 agree with Mr. Schulz and would just point out additionally 6 that Mr. Salaheddin made clear in I think it was paragraph 19 7 of his affirmation in connection with the motion to quash the 8 subpoenas that he was -- he had some concerns about risk of 9 safety then. And so it's not -- drawing a connection between 10 these calls from Egyptian intelligence and these fears doesn't 11 seem to be the right connection here; that his fears existed 12 before, before these calls ever happened. And it seems to 13 inject an issue into the case that isn't -- the calls by 14 Egyptian intelligence that isn't relevant and might be 15 confusing and fail Rule 403. 16 And we also agree with Mr. Schulz that what's at issue 17 here is whether the witness got it right as an initial matter, 18 not whether he's afraid as he sits here right now. 19 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, the facts are these: 20 First, we believe that someone called Mr. Salaheddin in an 21 effort to influence his testimony in an official proceeding. 22 That is a somewhat separate issue, but it is one that I had 23 thought the government would react to in some way because 24 there's a statute about it. 25 The witness comes to court and he's had calls from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5593 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 Egyptian security. He's afraid. Mr. Barkow says, well, he's 2 been afraid for a long time. And indeed, that's the 3 connection. He lives in a country in which people who do the 4 kind of work he does are afraid, or at least he is, and one of 5 the sources of his fear is the Egyptian security services. If 6 that's so, then the jurors may very well say, well, he comes to 7 court and tells us that this indeed is what I recorded at the 8 time, somebody said this to me. 9 But the truth of that assertion, this was said to me 10 and I was careful about it, is subject to some question, it 11 seems to me, because the man is under a great deal of pressure 12 to conform his conduct in some particulars to the wishes of the 13 police and apparatus of the country in which he lived. 14 And, therefore, should we choose to argue to the jury 15 that at the time he reported these comments in the country in 16 which he lived, he may have shaded them in one way or another 17 or not that way. The only basis to make that argument is to 18 bring out the fear under which he lives. 19 Now, the government might argue the fear comes from a 20 different source, but the only fear palpable in this room is 21 that. And it is directly relevant to the weight to be given to 22 his testimony. I am sorry to have to be raising this because I 23 know it causes the man discomfort, but Justice Frankfurter said 24 long ago in the Piemonte case that we're all entitled to 25 evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5594 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 MR. SCHULZ: Two other quick points. Factually, I 2 don't think there's anything to suggest that there was an 3 effort to influence the testimony here, at least in the manner 4 that's been raised. 5 My understanding is the questions that were raised by 6 the police had to do with whether proper protocol had been 7 filed in compelling an Egyptian citizen to appear in the US 8 court and whether there was some international treatise that 9 that had been governed through. And that's what the government 10 was trying to inquire into. I don't think it had anything to 11 do with the substance of his testimony. 12 The other, just so the Court is clear, the way the 13 testimony came in where the witness read the statements by 14 Ms. Stewart and the attorney read the statements from Mr. Taha 15 was not out of any unique concern about Taha's statements 16 different from the others but as compromised between us as to 17 how this would come in. 18 THE COURT: Well, it may be that the questions do not 19 elicit answers that are helpful at all to the defendants. But 20 this is not -- a limited questioning is permissible as it 21 affects credibility. And as Mr. Schulz portrayed it, it's not 22 a matter of sensitivity questions as to whether the right 23 political protocol and the right conventions have been complied 24 with. And the witness may or may not be nervous over that. 25 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, I just wanted to raise this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5595 49desat2 Salaheddin - direct 1 since Mr. Schulz raised it. If Mr. Tigar does ask these 2 questions I would like on redirect, if it's not made clear on 3 cross that that was the substance of those conversations, but I 4 don't want to go beyond that because of the concerns that 5 Mr. Schulz raised, and I'd ask permission perhaps to lead the 6 witness to make sure I don't go -- lead somewhat -- go beyond 7 the scope of what the conversation was with Egyptian 8 intelligence, because I'm not interested in getting into any 9 other conversations or any other sources or anything like that. 10 MR. TIGAR: We object to leading, your Honor. It's 11 a -- I don't see any reason for it. It's an issue of 12 credibility and I don't see any reason to dispense with the 13 rules. 14 THE COURT: I don't either. You can make clear what 15 you're not looking for, and I doubt that -- you can make a 16 separate application if there is something that arises in the 17 course of cross that suggests that leading is appropriate on 18 redirect. Whether to allow leading is, of course, in my 19 discretion. 20 All right. Let's bring the witness in and then the 21 jury. 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5596 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 MR. BARKOW: While Mr. Fletcher is getting the jury, 2 may I just ask Mr. Schulz a question? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Pause) 5 (Jury present) 6 THE COURT: Please be cited, all. Be seated, all. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Salaheddin is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher. 9 THE CLERK: Mr. Salaheddin, you're reminded you are 10 still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: I understand. 12 THE COURT: Please keep your voice up. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 MR. TIGAR: May I inquire, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: Any time. 18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. TIGAR: 20 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I am going to show you now what has been 21 marked as LS 40 and ask you, sir, is that another article that 22 you wrote? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. That article appeared on June 20, 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5597 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. Just so we're clear here, that would be six days after the 2 article on which you reported on Ms. Stewart's statement, yes? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And two days after the article in which you reported on 5 Mr. Taha's statement, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. The article contains some statements attributed to 8 Montasser al-Zayyat? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Where did you see Mr. Zayyat to hear him make these 11 statements? 12 A. At his office. 13 Q. Did you have your tape recorder with you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And your notebook? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Would it be easier if I read out the statements attributed 18 to him and ask you if that is what he said? 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. Just so we're clear, you say the same thing about these 21 statements as about the others, you heard them and you have no 22 present recollection as to what he said, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Going down, I have highlighted them for you, the first is 25 the Sheikh has slammed the Egyptian government position but he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5598 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 has certainly not withdrawn his backing? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The Sheikh referred to the truce in a small part of the 4 message sent to me. He asked them (Gama'a leaders) to review 5 the initiative, saying what's the benefit of this initiative? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then the written message does not include the a word or 8 phrase that shows he's withdrawing his support, withdrawing 9 support for the peace initiative? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Then I don't know if I highlighted this, but it's two 12 paragraphs down, say at said that Gama'a had not yet renounced 13 the truce? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And the latest position by the Gama'a on the initiative is 16 what the jailed leaders have announced about their insistence 17 on the cease fire. The exiled leaders have seen the 18 announcement and have not objected to it? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And then I am going to read you the next paragraph. 21 Do you have any independent recollection, as you sit 22 there today, whether you asked Mr. al-Zayyat to comment on the 23 published statements attributed to Mr. Taha? 24 A. In fact, the news conference was on that subject 25 specifically. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5599 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. You remember that the news conference was so that Mr. 2 Zayyat could respond to what you had written? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you remember how Mr. Zayyat got in touch with you about 5 that? 6 A. I think by phone. 7 Q. You know Montasser al-Zayyat, correct? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. When is the first time you ever met him or spoke to him? 10 A. I don't remember. 11 Q. A long time ago? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he's a lawyer? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And he has an office in Cairo? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you've been to his office? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You have been to press conferences that he's had? 20 A. Yes, sir. 21 Q. And he represents Islamiya? 22 A. Yes, sir. 23 Q. Taha enjoys a respected position among other Gama'a 24 leaders, but what he says is his own view? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5600 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. Say at said Refa'i had not been a member of the council 2 that sets Gama'a's guidelines and policies since he and two 3 others, Mohammad Islambouli and Osama Rushdi resigned in 4 November? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Gama'a's leaders have accepted the resignations, Refai'i 7 not taking part in decision-making? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. "Brother Mustafa Hamza is now in charge of Gama'a's shura, 10 (consultative) council," yes? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. TIGAR: Again, your Honor, we offer those under 13 the past recollection recorded, 803 (5). 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 BY MR. TIGAR: 16 Q. Now I want to go back to this conversation that you had 17 with Ms. Stewart. You can sit that down, that article. I 18 won't be asking you any more about it, the one you're looking 19 at. 20 As best you can remember, someone set up that 21 interview, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you remember who it was that you spoke to to set up an 24 interview with Lynne Stewart? 25 A. No, I don't remember. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5601 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. You mentioned on direct examination that you had spoken to 2 Ms. Stewart once and at a maximum twice? 3 A. Yeah, I think so. 4 Q. Was the conversation that you told us about that you wrote 5 an article about, was that the first time you'd ever spoken to 6 her? 7 A. Yeah, I think so. 8 Q. Searching your memory, do you remember any other time that 9 you talked to her? 10 A. I'm not sure about that. Maybe after that one time, but 11 I'm not sure. 12 Q. Looking at the calendar for June of 2000, is it your memory 13 that you would have spoken to her later, later in that same 14 month? 15 A. I don't remember. 16 Q. Now, when you spoke to her, you told us that you were at 17 home, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you knew you were going to have some conversation or 20 thought you would, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So you had your tape recorder and your notepad? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You were talking on the phone and tape recording the phone 25 conversation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5602 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How do you do that? 3 A. A speaker. 4 Q. You have a recorder. Does it have a little device that 5 attaches to your phone or do you put it next to the phone? 6 How do you physically do the job of recording the 7 phone conversation? 8 A. Yeah, I put it on hands-free, and I put the tape recorder 9 close to that. 10 Q. You have a hands-free or speakerphone, correct? 11 A. Yes, sir. 12 Q. Now, was anybody with Ms. Stewart on her end of the 13 telephone call that you could hear? 14 A. While she was speaking? 15 Q. At any time during the call, start with that? 16 A. I don't remember. No, I don't remember if someone was 17 during the same conversation was there or not. 18 Q. You did have in that same time period, that evening, you 19 did have a conversation with Mr. Sattar, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you knew who Mr. Sattar was, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You had spoken to him before that June 2000 date, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Can you remember whether Mr. Sattar was talking at the same SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5603 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 time as Ms. Stewart or holding onto the phone and interrupting 2 or whether he talked to you separately? 3 A. I don't think he was interrupting, but separately. 4 Q. When you answered the telephone, did somebody call you that 5 evening? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. When you answered the telephone, who was on? Who were you 8 talking to? 9 A. I don't remember who, who spoke to me first, whether he or 10 Ms. Stewart. 11 Q. Do you answer your telephone in Arabic or English at home? 12 A. Usually? 13 Q. Yes. 14 A. In Arabic. 15 Q. Do you remember specifically that night how you answered? 16 A. Yes, but I don't remember who was the speaker. 17 Q. But you're clear that you did tape record the conversation, 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, when you go to meetings and interviews in the course 21 of your duties, you take your tape recorder with you, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You also take a notebook? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You have been a reporter in Cairo with Reuters for 18 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5604 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 years? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You're a pretty well-known figure in Cairo journalistic 4 circles, correct. 5 A. There is a lot of them, actually. 6 Q. Pardon? 7 A. There is a lot of them. 8 Q. Your byline is known to people who are in Cairo, correct? 9 A. Yes, but -- 10 Q. After any of these articles appeared in June of 2000, did 11 anybody call you up and say or contact you -- excuse me -- did 12 anybody contact you and ask you for your tape recording or your 13 notes? 14 A. No. 15 Q. After any of these articles appeared, did anybody contact 16 you and say I'd like your tape recording or your notes? 17 A. No. 18 Q. If they had, then you might have kept them, correct? 19 A. I am sorry? 20 Q. If someone had asked you for them, you might not have 21 destroyed them, correct? 22 A. I am sorry. I don't follow you. 23 Q. You did eventually record over the tapes, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Eventually, you toss out your notebooks, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5605 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 A. Yes, sir. 2 Q. That has been your normal practice during all the time you 3 have been a journalist, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. How long a time were you on the telephone that day, if you 6 remember, with Ms. Stewart and Mr. Sattar? 7 A. No, I don't remember, frankly. 8 Q. Can you recall if it was more than an hour? 9 A. It is very difficult to say. 10 Q. I am sorry? 11 A. I am not sure. 12 Q. Do you remember if Mr. Sattar questioned or objected at any 13 time to the translation of anything? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Do you remember any questions that Mr. Sattar raised about 16 what was going on? 17 A. I am sorry. Can you rephrase it. 18 Q. Do you remember anything that Mr. Sattar said to you that 19 evening? 20 A. I remember he objected to the phrasing of -- either a 21 question of minor one comment by Ms. Stewart, but I don't 22 remember what exactly happened. 23 Q. Can I repeat that to make sure I have it. 24 You remember that he objected to the phrasing of one 25 question by you or a comment, or of a comment by Ms. Stewart, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5606 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 correct? 2 A. Yes, sir. 3 Q. You don't remember anything else other than that, right? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. All your conversation with Ms. Stewart was in English, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. All your conversation with Mr. Sattar was in Arabic, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes, sir. 11 Q. When you spoke to Mr. Sattar, all the time you have spoken 12 to him, those conversations are in Arabic, right? 13 A. Yes, sir. 14 Q. This was not the first story you had ever written about 15 things dealing with the IG, or al-Gama'a al-Isamiya, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. In fact, there have been, to your knowledge, no published 18 reports of any violence by IG after Luxor, correct? 19 MR. BARKOW: Objection. 20 THE COURT: Sustained. 21 BY MR. TIGAR: 22 Q. Turning your attention, sir, to, if you would take, please, 23 a look at Exhibit 546 H, right? 24 Do you have that in front of you? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5607 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. You read a statement there from Mr. Taha, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That statement came into your office as a fax, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Will you describe, please, for us, what does your office 6 look like? 7 A. It is in downtown Cairo, on the 21st floor of a building 8 there. 9 Q. Do you have your own office or are you at a desk in a room 10 where other people are sitting? 11 A. In a room with other people. 12 Q. And those other people are other reporters and editors? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Do you have your own fax machine or is there a fax machine 15 for everybody? 16 A. For everybody. 17 Q. When a fax comes in, it goes into a tray, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How does your company decide who gets what fax to work on? 20 A. It depends on who can handle it. 21 Q. You got this fax, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So it was up to you first to try and decide whether this 24 did, indeed, come from the person whose name was on it, right? 25 A. Yes, sir. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5608 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. How did you know it was Mr. Taha? 2 A. We received fax from him from time to time. 3 Q. Do the faxes have some fax identification or fax line or 4 picture? 5 A. His signature. 6 Q. A signature? 7 A. Yeah. 8 Q. So you recognized his signature? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Now, in this particular article, he's talking about someone 11 named Mr. Atia, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And he said he got killed by, got killed by Egyptian 14 Security Forces, Mr. Atia? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, I ask you, are you nervous about testifying 17 today? 18 A. Yeah, a bit. 19 Q. Pardon? 20 A. Yeah. 21 Q. Is a part of your nervousness based on having received 22 telephone calls from representatives of the Egyptian 23 government? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You have received telephone calls from the Egyptian SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5609 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 government, yes? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. When did you get those calls? 4 MR. BARKOW: Objection. Relevance. 5 THE COURT: I'll allow the answer. Go ahead. 6 THE WITNESS: Sorry? 7 BY MR. TIGAR: 8 Q. When did you get the calls from the Egyptian government 9 representative? 10 A. Last week. 11 Q. They were related to your testimony? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. They were concerned that you had been subpoenaed but had 14 not notified them, correct? 15 A. I am sorry? 16 Q. They were concerned, the caller was concerned that you had 17 been subpoenaed, but that the Egyptian authorities had not been 18 aware of that, correct? 19 MR. BARKOW: Objection. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: No. 22 BY MR. TIGAR: 23 Q. What was their concern? 24 A. They suggested that I testify through Egyptian legal 25 authorities. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5610 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. Could you repeat. I didn't understand your answer, sir. 2 A. They suggested that I testify through Egyptian legal 3 authorities in Cairo. 4 MR. TIGAR: May I look at the words on the screen, 5 your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 (Pause) 8 BY MR. TIGAR: 9 Q. They were suggesting that you testify in Cairo, not in the 10 United States? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is that something you wanted to do? 13 A. It was easier for me, of course. 14 Q. Did they give any reason for wanting you to do it that way? 15 A. It is because I am an Egyptian citizen. 16 Q. Now, would you please take a look, sir, at 550 H. You told 17 us that that was a news conference, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Where was that conference? 20 A. At one of the lawyers' offices. 21 Q. Are either Mr. al-Zayyat or Mr. -- 22 A. No. Abdel -- 23 Q. Mandour, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And Mr. Abdel Omar Rahman was at the press conference, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5611 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Was Assam at the press conference? 4 A. I am sorry? 5 Q. Assam? Am I pronouncing that correctly? 6 A. I am not sure. 7 Q. Would you look at the next to last paragraph on Page 2, 8 please. See if that refreshes your recollection. 9 A. Zayyat? 10 Q. No. 11 MR. TIGAR: May I approach, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (Pause) 14 BY MR. TIGAR: 15 Q. I may not be saying this correct, that person there. 16 A. She's, I think, the wife of Sheikh Omar. 17 Q. I was attempting to pronounce the name of Sheikh Omar Abdel 18 Rahman's wife. Was she there? 19 A. No, she was not there. 20 Q. Is her name Assam? 21 A. Assam, yes. 22 Q. Another person there was this lawyer named Mandour, 23 correct? 24 A. Yes, sir. 25 Q. Is -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5612 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 THE COURT: Hold on, please. For the reporter, could 2 you spell the name, please? 3 THE WITNESS: His, name, M A N D O U R. 4 BY MR. TIGAR: 5 Q. Is that correct, sir? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. To your personal knowledge, sir, is Mandour a man or a 8 woman? 9 A. A man. 10 Q. Is Mr. Mandour associated with Montasser al-Zayyat in the 11 practice of law, do you know? 12 A. I don't know. 13 Q. Just so I am clear, you don't save faxes that come in, 14 correct? 15 A. I am sorry? 16 Q. The faxes that came in on the basis of which you reported 17 Mr. Taha's statements, do you throw those out after a period of 18 time? 19 A. Yes, sir. 20 Q. Did anyone ever call you within the period of time you were 21 doing these articles and ask you for these faxes? 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. Well, did any government agency from any government contact 24 you or your employer, to your knowledge, to try to get these 25 faxes? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5613 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 A. Not from me. I am not aware of anyone else. 2 Q. Have you ever been at a press conference with Ramsey Clark? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. When was that? 5 A. I don't remember. It was in the '90s. 6 Q. In what? I am sorry? 7 A. In the '90s. 8 Q. In the '90s? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Was the subject matter of that press conference Sheikh Omar 11 Abdel Rahman? 12 A. I believe so. 13 Q. Was Mr. Clark making statements about that? 14 MR. BARKOW: Objection. Relevance. Scope. 15 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 16 BY MR. TIGAR: 17 Q. Was Mr. Clark discussing Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 18 A. I think so. 19 Q. Was Mr. al-Zayyat at that same conference? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Was it held in Mr. al-Zayyat's office? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you report it? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did you take a tape recorder and notebook there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5614 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Was Mr. Clark talking about Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's 3 prison conditions? 4 MR. BARKOW: Objection, your Honor. May I be heard? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. TIGAR: The last question, your Honor. All right. 7 It is reserved. When i say "last question," it is the last 8 question. If he answers that, your Honor, I will say I am 9 finished. 10 MR. BARKOW: That is the question I object to, your 11 Honor. 12 MR. TIGAR: May I speak briefly with Mr. Barkow, your 13 Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (Pause) 16 MR. TIGAR: Mr. Barkow has agreed to withdraw his 17 objection, your Honor, assuming that -- 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. TIGAR: -- that my question is what it was. 20 BY MR. TIGAR: 21 Q. What was the subject of Mr. Clark's press conference, 22 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's prison conditions? 23 A. I am not positive about that, sir. 24 MR. TIGAR: No further questions. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may we have five minutes? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5615 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a 2 brief break. Please remember my continuing instructions not to 3 talk about the case. Always remember to keep an open mind. 4 (Jury excused) 5 THE COURT: Mr. Salaheddin, you may step down. We are 6 taking five minutes. 7 (The witness left the witness stand) 8 (Recess) 9 THE COURT: We're ready to proceed? 10 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we will have no questions. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. BARKOW: I have a brief redirect, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. I realize we have had several 14 breaks, but I intend to have another break after the 15 examination of Mr. Salaheddin is completed because if a witness 16 needs to use crutches or the like, I prefer that not to be done 17 in the presence of the jury. So we'll take a break after 18 Mr. Salaheddin has completed testifying. 19 All right. Bring in the jury. 20 Will the defense say, "no questions"? 21 MR. FALLICK: We will say, "no questions," your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Do you want to say "no questions" or not? 23 I am perfectly happy to move on to the government. 24 MR. RUHNKE: I am perfectly happy to say nothing at 25 all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5616 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 MR. FALLICK: We have no questions, your Honor. 4 THE CLERK: I want to remind the witness that he is 5 still under oath. 6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. BARKOW: 8 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, just a few questions for you. 9 Before you publish an article, and in that article 10 attribute quotes to someone, how sure do you have to be that 11 you're getting those quotes correct? 12 A. A hundred percent sure. 13 Q. Do you have before you still Defendant's Exhibit LS 40, the 14 one that Mr. Tigar showed you? 15 A. Sir? 16 Q. Do you still have the one shown to you by Mr. Tigar? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. About midway through that page -- I want to make sure -- 19 Mr. al-Zayyat said, and you reported that he said, the written 20 message does not include a word or phrase that shows that he's 21 withdrawing support for the peace initiative, right? 22 Did I read that correctly? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. The written message, is that -- 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5617 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. Do you still have Government Exhibit 524 H in front of you? 2 A. 540? 3 Q. 524 H. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. That is your article of June 14th of 2000, reporting Ms. 6 Lynne Stewart's quotes to you? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that was based on an oral interview with her, right, 9 not a written exchange? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Could you tell us the first highlighted sentence, what did 12 Lynne Stewart say to you? 13 A. He's withdrawing support. 14 Q. That one, would you read that? 15 A. He's withdrawing his support for the cease fire that 16 currently exists. 17 MR. BARKOW: May I just have a moment, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Pause) 20 MR. BARKOW: Nothing further, your Honor. 21 MR. TIGAR: Recross? 22 THE COURT: Yes, limited to redirect. 23 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 24 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 25 BY MR. TIGAR: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5618 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 Q. Do you still have 524 H in front of you, sir? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. I am going to read out the next highlighted portion of it 4 and see if I'm right. She read a statement which she said he 5 had issued two weeks ago from his jail cell in Rochester, 6 Minnesota, which his defense team had held while considering 7 how best to release it. 8 Did I read that correctly? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Based on your journalistic practices, you would not have 11 reported that she read a statement unless she told you she was 12 reading a statement, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Because you weren't in the same room with her, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. TIGAR: No further questions. 17 MR. BARKOW: Brief, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Limited to recross. 19 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MR. BARKOW: 21 Q. Mr. Salaheddin, 524 H, the portion that Mr. Tigar just read 22 to you that she read a statement, that paragraph, is that in 23 quotes in your article? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So what does that mean? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5619 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 A. It means it is paraphrased. 2 Q. The other line that I asked you to read, "He is withdrawing 3 his support for the cease fire that currently exists," is that 4 in quotes in your article? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What does that mean? 7 A. It means it is her words, word for word. 8 MR. BARKOW: Nothing further, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we're 10 going to take a brief break. I am going to excuse the witness 11 at the break and then we'll resume. Again, please remember my 12 continuing instructions not to talk about the case at all, keep 13 an open mind. 14 (Jury excused) 15 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Salaheddin, you're 16 excused. You may step down. We'll take two minutes or so. 17 Thank you. 18 (Witness excused) 19 THE COURT: What is the next? 20 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, we have a translator. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Shall I bring the witness in, your 23 Honor? 24 THE COURT: Yes. In fact, you may be seated, please. 25 (Pause) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5620 49DJSAT3 Salaheddin - cross 1 THE COURT: Whenever the parties are ready -- I 2 realize defense counsel are conferring -- whenever the parties 3 are ready, I'm prepared to bring the jury back. 4 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, we're ready. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Let's bring in the jury. 6 K H O U R I, Nancy, N A N C Y) 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. The government 9 will call this witness. 10 MR. DEMBER: At this time, the government calls Nancy 11 Khouri. 12 NANCY KHOURI, 13 called as a witness by the Government, 14 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. DEMBER: 18 Q. Ms. Khouri, where do you work? 19 A. I work for the FBI. 20 Q. What do you do for the FBI? 21 A. I am a translator and interpreter. I do translation and 22 interpretation as well as quality control. 23 Q. What languages do you do interpretation or translation in? 24 A. I translate from Arabic into English. 25 Q. Do you ever at times translate English into Arabic? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5621 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 A. Yes, I do that, too. 2 THE COURT: Ms. Khouri, move your chair a bit into the 3 microphone. Please speak into the microphone. 4 Thank you. 5 BY MR. DEMBER: 6 Q. What types of materials do you translate for the FBI? 7 A. We have documents, we have audio and we have video. We do 8 all of the above. 9 Q. How often do you do that in your average workday? 10 A. Well, 9 hours a day minimum. Sometimes I work on the 11 weekends, too. 12 Q. How long have you been a translator or a language analyst 13 specialist with the FBI? 14 A. Two and a half years. 15 Q. During the time you have worked for the FBI, have you 16 always worked translating Arabic into English? 17 A. Yes, Arabic into English and English into Arabic as well, 18 but mostly Arabic into English, yes. 19 Q. Ms. Khouri, would you tell us where were you born? 20 A. I was born in Beirut, Lebanon. 21 Q. How long did you live in Lebanon? 22 A. I lived for 36 years. 23 Q. When did you leave Lebanon? 24 A. I left Lebanon 7 years ago. 25 Q. Where did you go to when you left Lebanon? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5622 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 A. I went to the United States, of course, and I went to 2 Florida, Fort Lauderdale. 3 Q. Have you lived in the United States ever since? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is your native language? 6 A. Well, actually, my native languages are English and Arabic. 7 Q. Are you fluent in Arabic? 8 A. Yes, sir. 9 Q. When did you first learn or start to learn Arabic? 10 A. Well, when I first went to school in kindergarten. 11 Q. Did you grow up speaking the Arabic language? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, you indicated that your native language is also 14 English? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Would you explain that for us, please. 17 A. Well, in Lebanon, you are either English-educated or 18 French-educated. If you are English-educated, you go to an 19 English school, and if you learn Arabic from the beginning, 20 which means when you first go to kindergarten, you learn both 21 the English and Arabic alphabet. 22 Q. When you went to kindergarten and started kindergarten, you 23 learned English at that point? 24 A. That is right, I Learned both the English and Arabic 25 alphabet. I learned that from Kindergarten-on. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5623 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 Q. Have you been speaking English ever since? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You're fluent in English as well? 4 A. Yes, sir. 5 Q. What languages do you use in your daily life now? 6 A. English, of course. 7 Q. Let me ask you a bit about your education. You went to 8 high school in Lebanon? 9 A. Yes. I went to an American school, to a private American 10 missionary school. 11 Q. What languages did you learn or speak when you were in high 12 school? 13 A. English and Arabic. 14 Q. After you finished your high school education, did you go 15 on to college or university? 16 A. Yes, I went to the American University of Beirut, and I 17 graduated from the American University of Beirut which is, of 18 course, an American accredited university. 19 Q. What did you study when you were in English? 20 A. I studied public administration and political sciences. 21 Q. When you took courses at the American University in Beirut, 22 what language were your courses given in? 23 A. In English. 24 Q. Did you receive a degree? 25 A. Yes, sure, BA. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5624 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 Q. After you graduated from the American University in Beirut, 2 did you further your education any more after that, take any 3 additional courses in universities? 4 A. Yeah, I did, I went, first I went to Goethe Institute, 5 which is like a school for language. I studied German, and 6 then I went back to the American University again and I studied 7 English-Arabic translation. 8 Q. After you graduated from university with your bachelor of 9 arts degree, did you start working after that? 10 A. Yes, right away, yes. 11 Q. What kinds of positions did you hold or employment 12 positions did you take after you graduated from college? 13 A. Teaching. I was an English teacher and English professor 14 for 10 years. I started as an instructor and then I became a 15 professor. 16 Q. Where did you teach? 17 A. At first I taught at the American language center. I was 18 an instructor and I taught English language and grammar, 19 advanced level, and -- 20 Q. Where was that? 21 A. That was in Lebanon. Then I taught English at the St. 22 Joseph University. This is a French university, and students 23 at the first and second year of college have to take English, 24 and it is a mandatory course and they get credit for that. 25 They need to take this course in English because later on they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5625 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 have a lot of courses that they have to take in English. 2 My students were majoring, at St. Joseph they were 3 majoring in dentistry, business administration, economics. 4 Q. Did you hold any other teaching positions? 5 A. Yeah, I taught English as well at the university, a French 6 university as well, and I taught English at the American 7 University, English entrance exam, preparation for EEE exam and 8 taught English Arabic translation at the Lebanon University. 9 Q. All those teaching positions you held in Lebanon? 10 A. Yes, that's correct. 11 Q. Did you ever teach English-Arabic translations as well? 12 A. I taught English-Arabic translations at the university. I 13 taught editing, translation, and I also taught them English and 14 Arabic grammar. 15 Q. By the way, what is the highest position you held as a 16 professor or teacher in all the positions that you've held? 17 A. Well, I cannot say that one was higher than the other. I 18 was a professor at all those universities and -- 19 Q. You held a position of professor? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Did you do that for approximately how long? 22 A. For 10 years. 23 Q. After that 10-year period, did you change careers, so to 24 speak? 25 A. Yeah, I did, yeah, I changed careers and I worked for a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5626 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 company in Lebanon, they were the exclusive agents for food 2 stuffs like mainly American, Uncle Ben's and Times and Kimberly 3 Clark, and I was the assistant to the general manager. 4 Q. Approximately, how long did you work there? 5 A. Almost three years, around three years or so. 6 Q. Was it after that position that you moved to the United 7 States? 8 A. Yes, exactly. 9 Q. Where did you work when you first came to the United 10 States? 11 A. Yeah, I applied for different companies. Then I worked for 12 GNC, the vitamin company, and its headquarters are in Fort 13 Lauderdale, Florida. 14 Q. Did you hold any other positions with companies in the 15 United States after that? 16 A. Yeah, I worked for another company, a German company, they 17 manufacture marine engines. I was the assistant to the 18 president and CEO. I worked for almost a year. Then I started 19 with the FBI. 20 Q. By the way, for any of the three companies you worked for, 21 your knowledge of the Arabic language, was that useful in any 22 of those positions? 23 A. Yeah. Actually, I did some translation for GNC, the 24 vitamin company, because I was responsible for twelve 25 countries, and those twelve countries were in the Middle East. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5627 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 They were Arab countries, and I had to do some translation for 2 their ministry of health from English into Arabic and I would 3 send those documents to our French ICs, there and they would 4 take those documents and they take them to the ministry of 5 health. 6 Q. At some point in time did you join the FBI. Is that 7 correct? 8 A. Excuse me? 9 Q. At some point in time after that, you joined the FBI? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When was that? 12 A. I worked for GNC and then I worked for the German company, 13 MAN Marine Engines, and I started with the Bureau in March, 14 mid-March 2002. 15 Q. In order to obtain your position with the FBI, were you 16 required to take tests? 17 A. Yeah, we did. 18 Q. What kind of skills were you tested on? 19 A. We had to take comprehension exams, written exams and we 20 had to pass those exams in order to be qualified to work for 21 the Bureau. 22 Q. In what languages were you tested? 23 A. English and Arabic. 24 MR. DEMBER: At this time, the government offers Ms. 25 Khouri as an expert in translation of Arabic into English. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5628 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. I'll allow the witness to 2 testify. 3 BY MR. DEMBER: 4 Q. Ms. Khouri, have you done some translation work in this 5 case? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. I am going to in a moment put before you six pairs of 8 documents that have been marked for identification as 9 Government Exhibits 525 and 525 T, Exhibit 526 and 526 T, 10 Government Exhibit 529 and 529 T, 534 around 534 T, 540 and 540 11 T, 542 and 542 T, and Government Exhibit 549 and 549 T. 12 MR. DEMBER: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 (Pause) 15 BY MR. DEMBER: 16 Q. Ms. Khouri, let me ask you to first take off the top of the 17 pile of exhibits I have left with you the first two exhibits 18 which are marked for identification as Government Exhibits 525 19 and 525 T. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Just those two. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. First of all, will you tell us what kind of a document 24 Government Exhibit 525 is? 25 A. This is a newspaper article in a newspaper, of course, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5629 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 it is in Arabic. 2 Q. What is the newspaper that that comes from? 3 A. Asharq Al-awsat. 4 Q. Is there a date? 5 A. Yeah, it is -- 6 Q. Speak into the microphone. 7 A. June 15th, 2000. 8 Q. Is that article, that paper, the exhibit before you, 9 written in Arabic? 10 A. Yes, it is. 11 Q. Were you asked to translate that article? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Would you look at the next document which is marked as 14 Government Exhibit 525 T for identification. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Do you recognize that document? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. How do you recognize that document? 19 A. It has my initials at the bottom. 20 Q. What is that exhibit, 525 T? 21 A. This is the English version of the article which is in 22 Arabic. 23 Q. Is that a translation of the article? 24 A. Yes, it is. 25 Q. Who did that translation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5630 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 A. I edited it and I corrected it and I proofread it. 2 Q. You reviewed the whole article? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the translation? 5 A. And the translation, yes. 6 Q. In your opinion, is Government Exhibit 525 T a fair and 7 accurate translation into English from Arabic of the 8 Asharq-Al-Awsat article which is Government Exhibit 525? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. By the way, the article that you translated that is in 11 Exhibit 525, can you just describe where in Exhibit 525 it 12 appears? 13 A. Yeah, sure. It is on this page. 14 Q. Is that the second page? 15 A. I don't see a page number. 16 Q. I am saying, how many pages does the exhibit have? 17 A. This one here. 18 Q. Don't show it to us. I am asking, on which page of the 19 exhibit does that article appear, first appear? 20 A. On this page. I don't see a page number. 21 Q. You don't need to have a page number. Turn to the front of 22 the exhibit now, please. 23 A. Okay. It is Page 3. 24 Q. There is an exhibit sticker on the first page, correct? 25 A. No, it is not on the first page. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5631 49DJSAT3 Khouri - direct 1 THE COURT: Why don't you approach. 2 MR. DEMBER: Thank you. 3 (Pause) 4 THE WITNESS: I said Page 3 before. 5 BY MR. DEMBER: 6 Q. Ms. Khouri, where on Exhibit 525 does that article that you 7 translated first appear on the exhibit itself, Exhibit 525? 8 Which page is that? 9 A. It is on Page 3. 10 Q. Is the entire article on Page 3? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Let me ask you to turn to the next exhibit of the pair of 13 exhibits, 526 and 526 T. Do you have that in front of you? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. Let's examine first Exhibit 526. 16 Would you tell us in general terms what kind of 17 document is that? 18 A. This is an article from Al-Hayat newspaper. 19 Q. Is there a date on the newspaper? 20 A. June 15, 2000. 21 Q. Again is that article written in Arabic? 22 A. It is written in Arabic, yes. 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5632 49desat4 Khouri - direct 1 BY MR. DEMBER: 2 Q. And were you asked to translate that article? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And would you look at the document which is marked 5 Government Exhibit 526T. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you recognize that document? 8 A. Yes, I do. 9 Q. How do you recognize it? 10 A. It has my initials at the bottom as well. 11 Q. And what is 526T, Exhibit 526T? 12 A. This is the English version of the Arabic newspaper 13 article. 14 Q. That's a translation of it? 15 A. It's the translation of the Arabic version. 16 Q. Did you help prepare that translation? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And do you think your translation which is Government 19 Exhibit 526T is a fair and accurate translation into English 20 from Arabic in the Al-Hayat article? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Which is Exhibit 526? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. By the way, on Exhibit 526, where does the article begin? 25 A. OK. The article begins on page one and ends on page two. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 5633 49desat4 Khouri - direct 1 Q. On the back of the document? 2 A. On the back of the document, yes. 3 Q. Let me ask you next to go to Exhibits 529 and 529T. Do you 4 have those in front of you? 5 A. OK. 6 Q. Do you have those? OK. 7 Would you tell us, what type of document is 8 Exhibit 529? 9 A. Yes. This is, again, a newspaper article from Asharq 10 Al-Awsat. 11 Q. And is dated? 12 A. June 19, 2000. 13 Q. And, again, is the article written in Arabic? 14 A. It is written in Arabic, yes. 15 Q. And were you asked to translate that article or assist in 16 translation? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Now, would you look at Exhibit 529T. 19 A. OK. 20 Q. Do you recognize that document? 21 A. Yes, sir, I do. 22 Q. How do you recognize that? 23 A. I initialed the document. 24 Q. Are your initials on the document? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.