6242 49SJSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 September 28, 2004 8 9:45 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 and a jury 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY, 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER, 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO, 17 ANTHONY BARKOW, 17 ANDREW DEMBER, 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL, 19 BARRY M. FALLICK, 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR, 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE, 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN, 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE, 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6243 49SJSAT1 1 (Trial resumes) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please be seated. All 4 right. We were in the July 2001 prison visit, is that where 5 we're picking up? 6 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. I don't know if you can 7 hear it, but I think there is something wrong with the court's 8 microphone. It is coming out very fuzzy. 9 THE COURT: It may not be the microphone. Can people 10 hear me? 11 MS. BAKER: Yes. 12 THE COURT: It may be my voice. 13 MS. BAKER: No. It is pretty clear it is the 14 microphone. It is distorting it somehow. We can hear you, but 15 it is a little distorted. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MS. BAKER: We will be proceeding with the July 2001 18 prison visit. So the court is aware, we have someone else who 19 will be reading the attributions to defendant Mohammad Yousry 20 today, and his name is Mr. Rambaud. 21 At the appropriate time, we will ask he be permitted 22 to come forward. Defense counsel has asked that the jury be 23 advised it is a new reader for Mr. Yousry. 24 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we don't ask that anything be 25 said about it, that Ms. Shellow-Lavine has been excused for the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6244 49SJSAT1 1 morning. We informed your Honor, and Ms. Stewart consents with 2 that. 3 THE COURT: Right. Thank you. What page are we at 4 the transcript? 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we are on Page 82 and for 6 continuity purposes, we ask ask to begin reading at line 19. 7 THE COURT: This was 1717? 8 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor. This is 1716 X. 9 THE COURT: I had the problem with the pages in the 10 wrong exhibit number. They were at 1717. 11 Okay, let's bring in the jury. Ms. Baker, it would be 12 more appropriate for you to advise the jury that someone, 13 Mr. Rambaud, will be reading. 14 MS. BAKER: Certainly, your Honor. 15 (Jury present) 16 THE COURT: Be seated, all. Good morning, ladies and 17 gentlemen. 18 THE JURY: Good morning. 19 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. All right. 20 When we left off last week, we were in the middle of a 21 transcript. All right, Ms. Baker. 22 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 23 At this time, the government asks to continue 24 presenting to the jury the July 13th, 2001 prison visit by 25 viewing and displaying the transcripts in evidence as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6245 49SJSAT1 1 Government Exhibit 1716 X. I will be reading the lines 2 attributed to Omar Abdel Rahman, Ms. Elizabeth Griffith will be 3 reading the lines attributed to Ms. Stewart, and today we have 4 a new reader who will be reading the lines attributed to 5 Mohammad Yousry, and that is Mr. Rambaud, who is also seated on 6 the witness stand. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MS. BAKER: We will be resuming on Page 82 of the 9 transcript, at line 19. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MS. BAKER: May we proceed? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1716 X, in 14 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we now ask permission to 16 continue presenting the July 13, 2001 prison visit by reading 17 and displaying to the jury Government Exhibit 1717 X in 18 evidence. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MS. BAKER: I will continue to read the lines 21 attributed to Mr. Abdel Rahman, Mr. Rambaud will continue to 22 read the lines attributed to Mr. Yousry, and Ms. Griffith will 23 continue to read the lines attributed to Lynne Stewart, and I 24 will read the lines attributed to unidentifed female and 25 unidentified male. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6246 49SJSAT1 1 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1717 X, in 2 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at this time, the government 4 asks to present to the jury the July 14th, 2001 prison visit by 5 reading and displaying the transcript in evidence as Government 6 Exhibit 1720 X. 7 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed. 8 MS. BAKER: We will continue with the attributions 9 that we have been using as far as who is reading which parts. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1720 X, in 12 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 13 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, this might be a good time to 14 take a break. 15 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 16 take a mid-morning break. Please remember my continuing 17 instructions not to talk about the case. Always remember to 18 keep an open mind and not to discuss the evidence until I have 19 instructed you on the law and you retire to the jury room to 20 begin your deliberations. All rise, please. 21 (Jury excused) 22 THE COURT: All right. See you shortly. 23 (Recess) 24 THE COURT: You may be seated, all. Are the screens 25 working? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6247 49SJSAT1 1 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 2 For continuity, we ask permission to resume reading 3 with what is in the printouts that we all have, printouts of 4 the Word Perfect documents, on Page 20 line 11, the sentence 5 that begins "as for the issue," but on the screen, in what the 6 jury is seeing, which is the PDF version of the document, that 7 same sentence is on Page 19, on line 27. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Do you want for the jury to come in 9 before putting up the -- 10 MS. BAKER: We can certainly go ahead and put it up 11 there now, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Fine. Let's call in the jury. 13 (Jury present) 14 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 15 The government may proceed. 16 MS. BAKER: Thank your Honor. We will resume 17 displaying and reading Government Exhibit 1720 X, beginning 18 with the full sentence that appears on Page 19 line 27 of the 19 version on the screen. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1720 X, in 22 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 23 THE COURT: Just a brief explanation to the jury. 24 Because of technical issues with respect to the form 25 in which the transcript is, the transcript is on your screens SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6248 49SJSAT1 1 and on the big screen in one form. All of the words are the 2 same in the written transcripts that the parties are following 3 along with, but that was the reason for the difference that you 4 just heard, to identify for the parties where in the written 5 transcript they should follow along as compared to the 6 transcript on the screen. All right. You may proceed. 7 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1720 X, in 8 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) 9 THE COURT: All right. Before we move to the next 10 transcript, it is 12:11, so why don't we take a stretch break 11 before we move on to the next one. 12 (Pause) 13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. All right. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at this time, the government 15 asks to continue presenting the July 20th, 2001 prison visit by 16 reading and displaying to the jury the transcript in evidence 17 as Government Exhibit 1721 X. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MS. BAKER: We will continue reading with the same 20 attributions. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MS. BAKER: Visit to Minnesota, July 14, 2001, 23 Videotape 2. 24 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1721 X, in 25 evidence, was displayed and read to the jury) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6249 49SJSAT1 1 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher advises me that the jurors' 2 lunch is here. This is a convenient time to take the break. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 4 instructions not to talk about the case. Always remember to 5 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence and 6 I have instructed you on the law. We'll resume at 2:15. Have 7 a good lunch. 8 (Jury excused) 9 THE COURT: See you this afternoon at 2:00 o'clock. 10 (Luncheon recess) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6250 49SMSAT2 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: One juror mentioned to Mr. Fletcher some 5 transportation issues and asked if we could break at 4:15, so 6 we will break at 4:15 today. 7 When I was going out to lunch, we opened up the door 8 to the robing room and the door to the jury room was open. We 9 closed the door to the robing room until the door to the jury 10 room was closed. 11 Mr. Barkow. 12 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, on an unrelated matter, the 13 other day we were reviewing the transcript from last week. At 14 page 6225, when I was stating the stipulation that the DVDs of 15 the July 2001 prison visit are in evidence to the extent they 16 reflect conversations in the X transcripts, I either 17 misspoke -- probably, I misspoke or it was mistranscribed, but 18 I listed the numbers and I said, or it is transcribed as 1717B 19 as one of those DVDs and there actually is no 1717B. And what 20 I should have said or what should have been transcribed is 21 1718A in place of that. 22 I don't know if it is necessary to say anything in 23 front of the jury so long as the record is clear, but we did 24 notice that on the review of the transcript, and I just wanted 25 to make sure the record was clear on that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6251 49SMSAT2 1 I can be more specific, but basically I listed the 2 DVDs as 1716C, 1717C, 1717A, 1717B, 1720C, 1721C, and 1722C, 3 and there is no 1717B. Instead, there is a 1718A. 4 THE COURT: What page of the transcript is that? 5 MR. BARKOW: 6225, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Do the parties agree that it should be 7 1718A? 8 MR. BARKOW: That's correct, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Rather than 1717B? 10 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Which is in evidence to the extent of the 12 transcript? 13 MR. BARKOW: Correct, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Do the parties agree with that? 15 MR. RUHNKE: Sounds right. 16 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Sounds reasonable. 17 THE COURT: Do the parties see any reason to correct 18 that in front of the jury? 19 MR. TIGAR: No. 20 THE COURT: The parties agree that it is 1718A rather 21 than 1717B that's in evidence to the extent of the transcript. 22 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Anything else before we bring in the jury? 24 Let's bring in the jury. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, shall Ms. Griffith and I go SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6252 49SMSAT2 1 wait by the lecturn? 2 THE COURT: Yes, please. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we are going to ask to begin 4 reading on page 55, line 3, which actually is the same 5 pagination both on the hard copies and on the screen. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 (Jury present) 8 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 9 Good to see you. 10 Ms. Baker. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government asks to resume 12 its presentation of the transcript in evidence as Government 13 Exhibit 1721X, which is the transcript of videotape 2 of the 14 July 14, 2001 visit to the prison in Minnesota. We ask to 15 resume with line 3 on page 55. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1721 in evidence, 18 displayed and read to the jury) 19 MS. BAKER: Judge, would you like to take the 20 afternoon break at some point? 21 THE COURT: I was going to wait until the end of this 22 transcript, but I will take it now. 23 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take the afternoon 24 break. Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 25 about the case and keep an open mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6253 49SMSAT2 1 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 2 the jury room. 3 (Jury not present) 4 THE COURT: See you shortly. 5 (Recess) 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we are ready to resume. I'm 7 just waiting for some more water. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 Bring in the jury. 10 Could we put the transcript up? 11 Thank you. 12 I believe you were at line 13. 13 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 14 (Jury present) 15 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 16 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. The government 17 will continue presenting by reading and displaying Government 18 Exhibit 1721X, resuming on page 113 at line 13. 19 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1721 in evidence, 20 displayed and read to the jury) 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, at this time the government 22 asks to continue presenting the July 14, 2001 prison visit by 23 reading and displaying to the jury the transcript in evidence 24 as Government Exhibit 1722X. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6254 49SMSAT2 1 MS. BAKER: We will continue reading with the same 2 attributions. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1722X in evidence, 5 displayed and read to the jury) 6 THE COURT: Why don't we break there for the day. 7 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for the day. 8 Please remember my continuing instructions as you go home. 9 Please don't talk about this case at all among yourselves or 10 with anyone when you go home this evening. Please remember not 11 to look at or listen to anything to do with the case. If you 12 should see or hear something inadvertently, just turn away. 13 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 14 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, 15 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 16 Fairness and justice requires that you do that. 17 With that, have a very good evening. I look forward 18 to seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. 19 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 20 jury room. 21 (Jury not present) 22 THE COURT: We are breaking at noon tomorrow, and I 23 hope to have resolved the issues with respect to the materials 24 from the search of Ms. Stewart's office and the Taha book by -- 25 when we break tomorrow, if that's satisfactory. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6255 49SMSAT2 1 MR. BARKOW: May we have a moment, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Sure. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, as the Court is aware, we 4 are getting to the very end of our case. We don't have many 5 more witnesses to put on. If we could just take a few minutes 6 right now to talk. We had planned on putting the interpreter 7 for the Taha book on tomorrow, and we would therefore need a 8 ruling prior to that to do that. 9 THE COURT: I could do it at 9:00 tomorrow morning. 10 MR. MORVILLO: If that's not an inconvenience to the 11 Court, that would be acceptable to the government. 12 THE COURT: 9:00 tomorrow morning. 13 The next issue is the Yousry search, the search of 14 Mr. Yousry's home. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, here is where we are with the 16 Yousry search materials. We are still waiting for what I 17 described as a substantial number of translations of the 18 materials that were seized. Mr. Morvillo and Mr. Stern and I 19 have been talking about what is to be offered. We are trying 20 to narrow way down the number of items that would be 21 objectionable. As I've told Mr. Morvillo in a phone call on 22 Friday, it appeared that the government did not cast quite as 23 broad a net with the Yousry search materials as they had with 24 other searches. So many of the materials are very obviously 25 relevant to the charges in the indictment and will not be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6256 49SMSAT2 1 objected to. 2 We are trying to resolve our differences on the 3 others. I don't know if we will be able to resolve all of the 4 differences and I don't know when the government will say to us 5 that they now have translations of the materials that were 6 seized. We have gotten some more today. We have gotten some 7 last week. But there still are a substantial number that have 8 not been given to us. Until we have that universe I don't 9 think it is right to start talking about objections. 10 MR. MORVILLO: As far as the numbers go, there are 11 approximately 40 exhibits that need translations. I have 12 produced drafts of 32 and final translations of 28. I 13 anticipate over the next couple of days to produce the final 14 translations for the remainder of the exhibits. And certainly 15 we have the witness who will testify about the Yousry search 16 and we don't need to resolve all the publication issues until 17 after that witness testifies. 18 My plan was to publish some of the materials that are 19 not objected to and for which final translations have been 20 produced on Thursday and then to produce the remaining or 21 publish the remaining documents on Monday, if that were 22 possible. 23 THE COURT: When is the witness going to testify? 24 MR. MORVILLO: Thursday morning. But I'm not planning 25 on publishing any exhibits through that witness or offering SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6257 49SMSAT2 1 into evidence any of those documents through that witness, your 2 Honor. 3 MR. RUHNKE: I think there will probably be a 4 relatively small number, 10, as to which there may be 5 objections to, and all I can say is that if we get the 6 translations by Thursday, we can give you something over the 7 weekend that are actually objected to. The government then 8 doesn't want to publish them until Monday. I hope that's 9 satisfactory. Until we start getting the translations, I am 10 not sure we can do anything more. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we certainly will get the 12 translations as soon as possible. But they have access to 13 translators as well. They know what these documents are. I 14 think they can begin to formulate their responses to them. As 15 far as whether there is going to be an objection or not prior 16 to seeing our final version of the translation, I hope to be 17 able to get them all to counsel by the end of this week, but we 18 have a translator shortage, as the Court is aware, and we are 19 trying diligently to finish everything. We hope to be able to 20 do it. But I don't think that we have to wait for all the 21 objections until final, final translations of everything are 22 completed. 23 I would also say, your Honor, that I believe, based on 24 our current assessment of the remainder of the evidence that we 25 are going to rest on Monday; at the latest, Tuesday. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6258 49SMSAT2 1 THE COURT: When would the translator testify as to 2 the documents that have not yet been translated? 3 MR. MORVILLO: To the extent that there aren't 4 stipulations, they would testify on Thursday and/or on Monday. 5 THE COURT: Please try to work it out as to when if 6 there are objections to the documents you will get me the 7 objections so I can hear what the response is. I would 8 certainly like to keep all of you on schedule. 9 Yes. 10 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, last evening we did receive 11 the government's letter about the technology issues. And 12 although there is more production to be awaited, that is, the 13 government's final letter, under the 48-hour rule, our response 14 would be due Wednesday very late evening. We would ask leave 15 to bring that in Thursday morning, your Honor, because we 16 intend, of course, to attach a large number of documents that 17 will, of course, be under seal because they are produced in 18 that form and subject to the protective order. 19 I would note in that connection that one of the forms 20 of relief that we will be seeking by virtue of the adopted or 21 otherwise approved nature of some of these documents is a 22 recall of one or more of the witnesses that were tendered 23 during the government's case in chief. There are other forms 24 of relief that are asked for in the alternative in some 25 interlocking way, but that is something of which I wanted to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6259 49SMSAT2 1 make the parties aware. Therefore, we would ask to be 2 permitted to bring that into the court for the parties on 3 Thursday morning. I trust that the government would not have 4 an objection to that. Of course, it is your Honor's call. 5 THE COURT: That's fine. 6 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, if I may, we don't have an 7 objection to that. 8 If I may just make one quick point about the Taha book 9 in advance of the Court's final review of that issue. We 10 received the most recent submission by Mr. Tigar about the 11 book, and I just wanted to make a quick point about it. There 12 is an issue that seems to be -- I wouldn't call it a 13 completeness issue. That's not exactly how he couches it, but 14 a selective quotation or presentation issue and I wanted to 15 make one point about that. The exhibit that we submitted to 16 the Court and provided to the parties, 2700TH, it is our 17 intention to have the translator read those highlighted 18 portions and, therefore, it is our position that if the 19 defendants believe that we selectively quoted or anything of 20 that sort, they could, through cross-examination, put in any 21 other parts of the book that demonstrated -- which we don't 22 think we did, but was out of context or selective or what have 23 you. I wanted to make that point. I don't know if the parties 24 and the Court were aware that that was the actual method of 25 presentation that we intended. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 6260 49SMSAT2 1 THE COURT: 2700 is the same as 2700T, except it has 2 highlights. 3 MR. BARKOW: That's correct. 4 THE COURT: Why would you introduce 2700TH? 5 MR. BARKOW: I would not introduce it, your Honor, but 6 it would be an aide to the reader -- the translator so that he 7 can read the appropriate parts. And the one that would 8 actually -- I guess my preference would be to have that in 9 front of the jury so when he reads it they see the part that he 10 is reading. But then the part that would go back with the jury 11 in deliberations would be 2700T, which is not highlighted. But 12 it would be an aide, my belief is, to the jury and certainly to 13 the reader to have the highlighted part in front of him and on 14 the screens. But that would be used as an aide. 15 THE COURT: Anything else? 16 See you tomorrow morning at 9:00. 17 (Adjourned to September 29, 2004, at 9:00 a.m.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300