8244 4B85SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 8, 2004 8 9:20 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8245 4B85SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. 3 I received correspondence from the government with 4 respect to Mr. Yousry, with respect to various exhibits and 5 Mr. Clark's testimony. Yes? 6 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. I know you are asking 7 me a question. 8 As regards Mr. Clark's testimony, Mr. Stern will 9 address that issue since he is the one calling the witness. 10 With regard to the exhibits, I still think we can 11 resolve that between the government and ourselves. I am 12 looking for Ms. Baker who is not here. 13 But I do believe if by the end of today we haven't 14 resolved that, I will send the Court a letter tonight, of those 15 exhibits. 16 THE COURT: When will I have to resolve that? 17 MR. RUHNKE: Will you have to resolve it? Probably by 18 Wednesday. These are not huge issues, if I can put it that 19 way. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. STERN: The letter about Mr. Clark's testimony, if 22 you have it, I will address it in the order Mr. Clark wrote the 23 letter. 24 And I think we are actually not as far apart as it 25 might seem when I address this, so I don't mean to say that we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8246 4B85SAT1 1 are at loggerheads about it. 2 The question about whether or not Mr. Clark thought 3 the SAMs themselves were legal or the propriety of them. I 4 don't intend to ask him whether he thought they were legal or 5 not, but I do intend to ask him whether or not he thought he 6 was violating them because it is our position that through his 7 actions and the actions of all the lawyers, they conveyed to 8 Mr. Yousry, who was neither a signatory nor provided by 9 whatever was provided by the government copies of the SAMs, how 10 he could or could not behave. 11 The government doesn't have to accept his 12 interpretation if it is right and it doesn't matter if his 13 interpretation was right. What matters is if he conveyed it to 14 Mr. Yousry. But things are not only conveyed in words. That 15 is, he didn't sit down and have conversation with Mr. Yousry 16 where he said this is what the SAMs mean, this is what I intend 17 to do and this is how I behave. 18 Over the period of seven years he behaved a certain 19 way during phone calls, during visits, during conversations 20 about the Sheikh, and so it seems to me it is appropriate to 21 ask him whether or not he thought his actions were violating 22 them. 23 That's different, of course, than asking him whether 24 or not he thought they were legal, which I don't intend to ask 25 him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8247 4B85SAT1 1 As to the second question, whether he has been charged 2 with a crime, I don't intend to ask him that specific question 3 but I do intend to ask him questions about whether or not he 4 ever received from the government notice of any form that what 5 he was doing -- that is, having press conferences -- as you 6 know in 1997, I think he released a statement that the Sheikh 7 supported a cease-fire -- whether he was ever notified that any 8 of those things violated the SAMs. 9 And the reason for that is the same as I indicated 10 earlier, through his actions and through his words on some 11 occasions he conveyed to Mr. Yousry what was appropriate or 12 inappropriate under the SAMs. 13 Finally, as to whether or not he thinks the Sheikh was 14 appropriately or justly or wrongly convicted, I don't intend to 15 ask him anything about his opinion of whether or not the Sheikh 16 was convicted. 17 So on the third one we're in, I think, complete 18 agreement. 19 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, first I should say that this 20 letter was not just directed at questions and testimony 21 elicited by counsel for Mr. Yousry but also equally, if not 22 moreso, at questions by counsel of Mr. Sattar by Ms. Stewart, 23 and on that front it is both a relevance and 403 objection and 24 also, because Mr. Yousry is the person who intends to call 25 Mr. Clark, a scope objection, assuming that Mr. Clark testifies SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8248 4B85SAT1 1 about things that are relevant to Mr. Yousry's state of mind, 2 we think that that delineates the scope of what questioning 3 might follow and that's a separate issue, which I can get to in 4 a moment. 5 We distinguish between questions on the one hand that 6 inquire into Ramsey Clark's state of mind subjective 7 interpretation, his view of lawyers' roles, what he thought he 8 was told to do or not to do. On the other hand, what he had in 9 his possession, that is the SAMs, and what he did, or what he 10 told Mr. Yousry to do or not to do. 11 And basically the distinction is Mr. Clark's state of 12 mind as to what he thought he could or should do, or others 13 could or should do is irrelevant because Mr. Clark is not a 14 party in this case, he is not a defendant, and his state of 15 mind is irrelevant. And the danger of unfair prejudice from 16 its admission substantially outweighs any marginal probative 17 value it might have because, by virtue of his former position 18 as the attorney general, we think that the jury could misuse 19 that in an improper way, perhaps similar to what was discussed 20 in connection with Judge Mukasey's comments at sentencing. 21 Mr. Clark was the leading law enforcement officer of 22 the United States and we think that it is unfairly prejudicial 23 to allow what we think is irrelevant evidence about his 24 subjective state of mind, whether he thought something was 25 appropriate or not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8249 4B85SAT1 1 And we distinguish between that on the one hand and on 2 the other hand what he told Mr. Yousry to do. Whether he told 3 Mr. Yousry that what Mr. Yousry was doing was right or wrong, 4 whether he acted in a certain way -- merely acted in a way that 5 was observed by Mr. Yousry and therefore might have informed 6 Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 7 If Mr. Clark received a letter from the government 8 telling him that what he was doing was okay or not okay and 9 Mr. Yousry didn't know about it, then it is irrelevant to 10 Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 11 If Mr. Clark subjectively believed that the SAMs 12 permitted something or did not permit it but he didn't 13 communicate that to one of the defendants, then it is 14 irrelevant in this case. 15 And we think that questions that are phrased in a way 16 that allow Mr. Clark to testify to his subjective state of mind 17 or testimony by him would impermissibly get into these 18 irrelevant areas. We talked about this, Mr. Stern and I. This 19 is, I think, the main source of our disagreement on Mr. Clark's 20 testimony. 21 And what we ask is that the Court, if the Court agrees 22 with us, that the Court -- because Mr. Stern I think rightly 23 notes that it might be difficult for, if Court rules in our 24 favor to control what exactly what Mr. Clark says about these 25 things, particularly in a direct examination, we wouldn't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8250 4B85SAT1 1 object to some leading to control that, but also we would ask 2 that the Court, outside of the presence of the jury and in 3 advance of Mr. Clark's testimony, instruct Mr. Clark what the 4 appropriate contours are of his testimony so that Mr. Clark, 5 himself, can conform his testimony to the Court's ruling. 6 MR. STERN: The problem that I see with the 7 government's analysis is that the things that happened between 8 Mohammed Yousry and Ramsey Clark take place over a seven year 9 period. And the idea that Ramsey Clark can remember every time 10 he acted a particular way or said a particular thing is not 11 really a realistic appraisal of the way life works. 12 What he did and what he said was formed by his 13 understanding and so to not allow him to say what his 14 understanding is is to deprive a jury of really knowing how he 15 behaved over those seven years. After all, there were just in 16 the times recorded, 63 prison calls and there were years, four 17 years or so before that of many prison calls and of many visits 18 and Ramsey Clark -- and I am singling him out, but though one 19 would have to say I remember each particular conversation I had 20 with Mohammed Yousry. I remember each particular act I did 21 during all of those years. 22 What he does know is what his impression of what his 23 understanding is of what he was and was not allowed to do and 24 that through everything he conveyed those things to Mr. Yousry. 25 I am not asking that the jury be led to understand SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8251 4B85SAT1 1 that that was in fact what he was allowed or not allowed to do. 2 I am asking that they understand that he conveyed 3 those things through everything he did and said to people 4 working on the case. 5 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, briefly, if I may? 6 Mr. Yousry, if he chooses to testify, can testify 7 about how Mr. Clark affected his state of mind. If Mr. Yousry 8 chose not to testify, Mr. Clark might appropriately testify 9 about how he said or did things that are demonstrated to have 10 affected Mr. Yousry's state of mind. But if there is no link 11 between what Mr. Clark thinks and what Mr. Yousry knows or 12 thought, then Mr. Clark's thoughts are irrelevant. And if it 13 is a product of the fact that Mr. Clark can't remember, then we 14 don't know whether in fact it affected Mr. Yousry's state of 15 mind and we think that it is irrelevant. And if it has 16 marginal relevance we think that 403 requires it to be 17 excluded. 18 For example, if Mr. Clark were told by the government 19 or thought that what he was doing was okay, that may or may not 20 have affected his behavior. We don't know. 21 If Mr. Yousry detected some act by Mr. Clark that made 22 him think that what he was doing was okay, or there is some 23 demonstrated fact of what Mr. Clark did or said from which the 24 jury could infer that Mr. Yousry thought what he was doing was 25 okay or not okay, then that's one thing. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8252 4B85SAT1 1 But if there is no link between what Mr. Clark is 2 thinking or doing and what Mr. Yousry knows, then it is 3 irrelevant and if it has any marginal relevance it fails Rule 4 403. 5 MR. TIGAR: Does your Honor want to hear from the 6 other parties on this? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. TIGAR: I did not respond to the letter, your 9 Honor, because I needed to talk to Mr. Stern and find out what 10 they were planning to do and I couldn't do that until Sunday. 11 Then he had a conversation with Mr. Barkow about it. 12 We intend to cross-examine Mr. Clark within the scope 13 of his -- the subject matter of his direct examination. 14 Now, one of the problems in this case for Mr. Clark is 15 that he is the subject of a Geaney finding by this Court that 16 the government asked for. 17 Now, Mr. Yousry's position in this case, I don't know 18 what it is, but it might well be that if there was a conspiracy 19 under Count One, I wasn't a member of it, and I wasn't a member 20 of it if it existed. But then that leads, of course, to the 21 negative question, well, who else was? 22 And so, it becomes relevant after Mr. Yousry has 23 presented this exculpatory version of events that exculpates 24 him, for us to interrogate Mr. Clark about his own actions and 25 the basis for them. After all, it takes two to tango under SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8253 4B85SAT1 1 federal conspiracy law and if not Mr. Yousry, then who else? 2 And that is a question that will inevitably be raised by 3 Mr. Clark's presence on the stand given that he is a subject of 4 a Geaney finding that the government sought. 5 Next, it seems to us that we are entitled to explore 6 Mr. Clark's credibility -- good, bad or indifferent. 7 Next, it seems to us that inevitably -- inevitably, 8 there will be a discussion of Mr. Stewart's role in the events 9 that Mr. Clark is describing. 10 There have been a great deal of evidence about the way 11 they worked together over time and it blinks reality to suggest 12 that Mr. Clark could be confined to a subject matter of direct 13 examination, using that term in its ordinary sense, that would 14 not involve some of the interaction with Ms. Stewart. 15 At the end of the day, your Honor, therefore, all of 16 these things have to do with scope and credibility and thus we 17 suggest that the government's letter is premature. 18 However, Rule 611A, which is seldom cited but oft 19 followed, gives this Court plenary power and the advisory 20 committee notes make it clear, to govern the way things are 21 done here. 22 The reason Mr. Clark is being called by Mr. Yousry's 23 counsel is that he had the most interaction, he had this 24 interaction with Mr. Yousry that Mr. Stern has talked about -- 25 at least I think that's right, and he is a busy person of a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8254 4B85SAT1 1 certain age and we thought that was the most efficient way to 2 present his testimony. 3 And so therefore, if we do get into some argument 4 about scope, we may very well add -- which I don't know that we 5 will -- we may very well ask the Court to exercise the Court's 6 discretion in a certain way, permit us to take him on 7 nonleading questions for a time, permit us to treat him as our 8 own witness. I can't predict that now. 9 But that power is out there and ultimately Court can 10 say, no, if you want that, you have to call him in your own 11 case or reopen your case or whatever. I just don't know. 12 But what we are trying to do here, your Honor, is to 13 present a defense to the jury in an orderly way that makes 14 sense. And certainly we do not intend to ask Mr. Clark 15 anything that's irrelevant in the 401, 402 sense to the issues 16 that are properly before this jury. We do intend to exercise 17 our right to cross-examine him keeping that in mind. 18 These other rules about scope and so on, as we say, I 19 think determination would be premature at this point. 20 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, with respect to the 21 credibility cross-examination, good, bad or indifferent, I 22 believe Mr. Tigar said, unless and until Mr. Clark's 23 credibility is attacked, I don't think it would be proper to 24 bolster Mr. Clark's credibility. 25 So I'm not sure, if Mr. Tigar, other than the implicit SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8255 4B85SAT1 1 bolstering that might occur by virtue of who he is and his 2 former position -- but to do credibility bolstering, prior 3 consistent statements, that sort of thing would be 4 inappropriate until his credibility is attacked, we believe. 5 With respect to the Geaney finding issue, I don't 6 recall whether there actually was a specific finding of that 7 sort with respect to Mr. Clark. 8 THE COURT: There was one -- at least one call that 9 dealt with the formation of political parties that the 10 government said was being offered in furtherance of the 11 conspiracy, as best I can recall. 12 MR. BARKOW: I think that's probably call 1034 on 13 November 5th of '99. 14 THE COURT: True. 15 MR. BARKOW: I know that we do view that as evidence 16 of the -- 17 THE COURT: And we had a discussion about that issue. 18 MR. BARKOW: The Court clearly has a better 19 recollection of that particular issue than I do. 20 I know that we view that evidence as evidence of the 21 existence and commission of the conspiracy. I don't recall 22 whether Mr. Clark's statements on that call were identified as 23 co-conspirator statements in furtherance of the conspiracy and 24 so I just don't remember. 25 We don't know if they were necessarily admitted for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8256 4B85SAT1 1 the truth or that we would use them for their truth. 2 THE COURT: We really -- you can go back and check the 3 transcript, we had this discussion. 4 MR. BARKOW: Well, in any event, the Court seems to 5 have a better recollection of that than I do and we can go back 6 and check. 7 THE COURT: But I am always happy to have the parties 8 check the transcript. 9 MR. BARKOW: In any event, we still view Mr. Clark's 10 subjective state of mind as irrelevant and if it has marginal 11 relevance, as failing the 403 balancing test for the reasons 12 that I articulated before because we think that it can be put 13 to an improper use by the jury and it is unfairly prejudicial 14 to the government by virtue of Mr. Clark's former position. 15 And when he is talking about his subjective state of 16 mind that has, in our view, no relevance and certainly far less 17 relevance than the defendants' states of mind. 18 With respect to the order of questioning, if the 19 questioning is to go as it seems by the comments of counsel it 20 is, we think that this would be the ordinary course but the 21 government requests that we would be last; that Mr. Yousry do 22 his questioning first and that Mr. Tigar and counsel for 23 Mr. Sattar do their questioning next. And if the questioning 24 does indeed go beyond the scope, we would ask that there be a 25 break so that that can be foreshadowed and, indeed, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8257 4B85SAT1 1 questioning then would not be leading. 2 Because we think that one of the -- we obviously don't 3 know the reasons for why Mr. Clark may or may not be called by 4 particular defendants but the cost of not calling Mr. Clark, in 5 our view in the Stewart case, is that he is not a witness for 6 Ms. Stewart. And if Ms. Stewart wants him to testify for her, 7 she can call him in her case. Her case is still ongoing, she 8 is on the stand. But she can't use him as an affirmative 9 witness by cross-examination and therefore being able to lead 10 him in someone else's case. 11 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, this concept of a witness 12 being for somebody is not anywhere in the federal rules, the 13 voucher rules are gone. If I recognize, your Honor, that -- 14 well, let me start over. 15 I don't think Mr. Ramsey is a witness for us or for 16 Mr. Yousry or anybody. He is a witness. He comes in like any 17 other witness and tells us what he thinks is the truth. 18 I understand that the Court may well tell me, with 19 respect to certain lines of questions, that I shouldn't lead 20 Mr. Clark. Why? Because it wouldn't be right given what he 21 says. That's the Court's discretion. 22 With respect to this intent issue, your Honor, let me 23 be very, very clear about what I want to do here. The 24 conspirators in Count One are allegedly, it could be 25 Ms. Stewart1, it could be Mr. Taha, it could be Mr. Sattar, it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8258 4B85SAT1 1 could be Mr. Yousry, it could be Mr. Clark, and who knows who 2 else. 3 But the jury, in order to convict Ms. Stewart, has to 4 find, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she conspired with 5 somebody else, that there was a conspiratorial agreement that 6 embraced at least one other person. And one when one of the 7 potential candidates shows up and is asked about his 8 relationship to one of the other potential candidates, we 9 respectfully submit that the state of mind of that person with 10 respect to that person's conduct, relevant conduct, conduct 11 within the scope of Count One, is at the heart of the case. 12 And while some inquiries about that subject, some 13 evidence that would tend to show it may fall afoul of a 403 14 analysis, the issue itself, to place myself in sharp 15 disagreement with government counsel, could not be more 16 central. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, we would like to look back at 18 the transcript for Mr. Clark and his statements under Geaney 19 and with respect to that call. This is something that, in our 20 view, should be addressed today but perhaps we can take it up 21 later. 22 I think that the questioning of Ms. Stewart is going 23 to continue for at least a few hours and so perhaps we can take 24 this up and not use jury time. I don't know if the jury is 25 even ready. Or I can take a minute now to see if I can find SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8259 4B85SAT1 1 something in the transcript. 2 THE COURT: No, I do want to bring in the jury. And 3 if I can't decide the issues today, Mr. Clark will not testify 4 tomorrow, he will go over until Wednesday if in fact he was 5 otherwise going to testify tomorrow. He will go over until 6 Wednesday. If I don't decide the issue today he will go over 7 until Wednesday. 8 MR. BARKOW: That's fine with us, your Honor. I was 9 basing what I said, I think, on Mr. Yousry's plan, so. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just so -- I'm not sure of 11 the implications about what your Honor just said. Mr. Clark is 12 our first witness. We have a plan on how we want to present 13 our defense. He is our first witness. 14 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring is in the jury. 15 MR. TIGAR: Shall Ms. Stewart take the stand now? 16 THE COURT: Yes, please. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8260 4B85SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 6 Ms. Stewart is on the stand. 7 Mr. Dember, you may proceed. 8 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, do you want Mr. Fletcher -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 10 Mr. Fletcher? 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Stewart, you are reminded you 12 are still under oath. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, you may proceed. 15 LYNNE STEWART, resumed 16 CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) 17 BY MR. DEMBER:: 18 Q. Good morning, Mr. Stewart. 19 A. Good morning, Mr. Dember. 20 Q. Ms. Stewart, I think we left off last week talking about 21 what happened during the May 2000 visit that you made with 22 Abdel Rahman. Do you remember that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And I believe you talked about the fact that you brought a 25 number of letters or correspondence with you and Mr. Yousry SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8261 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 into the prison at Rochester, is that right? 2 A. That's right. 3 Q. And we also had a discussion about the word "message." Do 4 you remember that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And I think you told us -- and correct me if I am wrong -- 7 that, in your view, the word "message" meant, is some kind of 8 secret communication. 9 Did you use that phrase, "secret communication"? 10 A. I'm not sure it always has to be secret but it has a ring 11 to it of some kind of secrecy or clandestinity or something to 12 that effect; yes. 13 Q. And it was your testimony and I believe you said, this 14 wasn't -- this was done so openly, so above-board, so out there 15 for everybody to know about. 16 Do you remember saying those words in reference to the 17 question about, of your defining the word "message"? 18 A. I thought I had said that with regard to the press release 19 but, because I don't think it was done openly because it was 20 part of the lawyer's work. And so when I discussed it with 21 him, the Sheikh that is, it became part of our privileged 22 conversations, I thought. 23 So I'm not sure that I would have said that it was 24 done openly. 25 Q. Well, the press release was based on something that was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8262 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 told to you and Mr. Yousry by Abdel Rahman during that visit, 2 is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that was communicated to you and Mr. Yousry as a result 5 of Mr. Yousry reading to Abdel Rahman a letter from Mr. Sattar, 6 is that right? 7 A. Yes, that's right. 8 Q. And that was the first day of the visit where it was read 9 to Abdel Rahman and I believe you said to him, to Abdel Rahman, 10 he should think about it overnight so that he could respond to 11 that portion of Mr. Sattar's letter the next day; is that 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And the next day, in fact he did respond and essentially 15 told you and Mr. Yousry, or you, through Mr. Yousry, in 16 responding to that, that in fact you should issue a press 17 statement about what he was saying. Is that right? 18 A. Yes. I'm not sure he said should but it was certainly open 19 and available to me. 20 Q. Now, let me backtrack for a second. 21 We know that you brought Mr. Sattar's letter into the 22 prison, is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you remember you also brought into the prison letters 25 from Nasser Ahmed and his wife, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8263 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. And I think you told us last week none of those letters 3 went through the procedures that are spelled out in SAMs where 4 they need to be reviewed by prison officials before they could 5 be brought into the facility or read to Abdel Rahman, is that 6 right? 7 A. Yes. That part of the SAMs seemed to apply, in my mind at 8 any rate, to letters such as would be sent through the U.S. 9 postal office, you know, with envelopes and the usual -- I 10 think there even is maybe some reference in the SAMs themselves 11 to envelopes. 12 But at any rate that was my impression of that 13 particular section. 14 Q. Just so that we are clear -- 15 May I approach, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm going to hand up to you what is in 18 evidence as Government Exhibit 6. Ms. Stewart, that exhibit 19 includes the Special Administrative Measures, is that correct? 20 A. It does. 21 Q. And just from the front cover, the first page of the 22 exhibit, does this appear to be the version of the SAMs that 23 were in effect when you visited Abdel Rahman in May of 2000? 24 A. I don't think I can answer that since it is dated December 25 10th, 2000 -- it wasn't a time. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8264 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 The time limits I know were 120 days. I don't know 2 whether this in fact was in effect or wasn't in effect, but 3 it's dated December 10th -- December 30th -- December 10th, 4 actually, 1999. 5 Q. Why don't you look at the cover letter, which is the second 6 page of the exhibit. Do you see that? 7 A. Uh-huh. 8 MR. DEMBER: May I display it for the jury, your 9 Honor? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Ms. Stewart, the date on the cover letter is April 5th, 12 2000, is that correct? 13 A. Yes, that's correct. 14 Q. That's the month before the visit itself? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why don't you look about three pages after that, is there 17 an affirmation with your name on it, a blank version of that 18 affirmation? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And look below, you see April blank, 2000 in the dated 21 portion? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you recall that when you actually signed the 24 affirmation on May 16th, 2000, you crossed out the April that 25 appears on this affirmation and wrote in the word "May" and you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8265 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 added the number 16 to that affirmation? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. Why don't you turn now to -- I will give you the 4 page of the SAMs, the section of page 6 of the SAMs itself. 5 May I display that, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. At the bottom it indicates that's the mail section, is that 8 right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then it describes legal mail, correct? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. And let me turn the page and you can if you like; then 13 there is a section called nonlegal mail, is that right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you see -- and then towards the middle of the page it 16 starts the section on visits, is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you see in any part of the mail section any reference to 19 envelopes? 20 A. Yeah, in one. 21 Q. Where is that? 22 A. Under, I guess it is small B(i)(1). 23 Q. Okay. Does anything in this section of the SAMs indicate 24 that the letters or the mail, the correspondence have to -- 25 does it make any reference to the U.S. Postal Service or to any SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8266 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 courier service? 2 A. No. It says the surface of the envelope. That's pretty 3 much it. 4 Q. That instruction indicates all nonlegal mail, incoming or 5 outgoing, shall be copied including the surface of the 6 envelope, by the warden. 7 That's an instruction as to what must be copied, is 8 that correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, I think you told us last week that when you took 11 after, at the end of the two day visit, there was a response to 12 Mr. Nasser Ahmed's letter, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. There was a response also to the letter sent by his wife as 15 well, correct? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. And there is also response to Mr. Sattar's letter, is that 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And did you show any of those letters to the warden before 21 you left Rochester after that visit? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Did you show any of those responses to the letters to any 24 Bureau of Prisons officials before you left Rochester? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8267 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Did you ever show any of those, copies of those responses 2 to any member of the Justice Department? 3 A. No. Absolutely not. 4 Q. Or the FBI for that matter? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Or the U.S. Attorney's office? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Or Pat Fitzgerald? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Ms. Stewart, I just have a couple more questions about 11 these letters or correspondence we are talking about. I think 12 you told us that the, or a reason why you didn't believe you 13 needed to show any of those letters or submit those letters 14 through the procedures spelled out in the SAMs was because you 15 mentioned the attorney-client privilege, is that right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. What I am going to do now is just read for you a 18 description of the attorney-client privilege and I'm going to 19 ask you if you understand and agree with that description or 20 definition, okay? 21 MR. TIGAR: Objection to, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Basis. 23 MR. TIGAR: First, I don't know what the description 24 is. Second, the law is for the Court. 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8268 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: And that's the basis of the objection. 2 THE COURT: Do you want to move to something else or 3 shall we take a brief break? 4 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, why don't we move on and we 5 will come back to this. That will make it easier. 6 Q. Let me ask you more about the visit. Now I believe it was, 7 you told us, before the start of the second day of your visit 8 with Abdel Rahman you met with the warden, is that correct? 9 A. Yes. I think it was after the first day. 10 Q. After the first day? 11 A. At the end of the first day, yes. 12 Q. And that was Warden Constance Reese, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Had you ever met her before that time? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Had you requested that meeting with Warden Reese? 17 A. No. She requested it. 18 Q. She requested the meeting with you? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. After you finished with your client, okay. 21 Had you ever, in any of your visits, to Rochester or 22 any other place where Abdel Rahman was housed after he was 23 sentenced, did you ever request a meeting with any of the 24 wardens? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8269 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. I think you mentioned to us that at some point during that 2 meeting you mentioned to Warden Reese that you were, at some 3 point, going to Court to make sure that the conditions under 4 which your client, Abdel Rahman was living, were changed. 5 Do you remember that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And did you tell that to the warden? 8 A. Yes. 9 I think I more or less, I had the sense that she was 10 trying to explain to me why things were pretty good for the 11 Sheikh and I didn't want her to be under any misapprehensions 12 that I was agreeing with her because I didn't think they were 13 good. So I basically told her that one of the reasons I was 14 there was the preparation of a conditions lawsuit and that 15 wasn't particularly directed at her. I thought she was just 16 following orders. 17 Q. And you made that clear to her, did you not, that it wasn't 18 a personal matter between Abdel Rahman and her, it was just the 19 conditions under which he was living including the SAMs, is 20 that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, during the visit when Mr. Yousry read the 23 letters from Nasser Ahmed and his wife to your client, Abdel 24 Rahman, did you participate in the reading in any way, or 25 discussion as he was reading those letters to your client? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8270 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. I think I wanted to make clear to the Sheikh -- I think 2 after Mr. Yousry said something about that he was reading 3 Nasser Ahmed's letter, I wanted to make clear to the Sheikh 4 that maybe things were not quite as dire as Mr. Ahmed was 5 describing them; that he was in fact living his life and 6 getting on with life, although it was a pretty dim picture he 7 presented in the letter that the Sheikh should understand from 8 my observation that it was maybe not quite that dire. 9 Q. How about Mr. Ahmed's wife's letter, do you remember having 10 that kind of conversation with your client and Mr. Yousry as he 11 was reading that letter? 12 A. I think I may have remarked about how happy Salwah was, 13 that he was home, that nothing could be bad when someone comes 14 home from jail and after a very difficult case and time, she 15 was taking care of their four kids and etc. 16 So I think I might have said she may also sound kind 17 of down but actually she is happy and in love I think I may 18 have even said. 19 Q. Now, was it the second day that Abdel Rahman responded to 20 both of those letters? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you participate in any way when Abdel Rahman was giving 23 his response to Mr. Yousry to those letters? 24 A. No, I don't think so. I -- that was pretty much -- I was 25 completely doing something else. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8271 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Now, during the first day I think you told us last week you 2 handed Mr. Sattar's letter to Mr. Yousry so he could read that 3 to Abdel Rahman the first day, is that right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And when he was doing that on the first day, did you 6 participate in any way in that conversation of Mr. Yousry 7 reading to Mr. Sattar? 8 A. I don't really recall. 9 Q. Obviously that was all done in Arabic, correct? 10 A. All done in Arabic, yes. 11 Q. Same thing with Mr. Ahmed's letter and his wife's letter, 12 all done in Arabic? 13 A. Except as you mentioned a few moments ago, I did say you 14 should think about this because you will respond to it 15 tomorrow, or something like that. 16 Q. But in terms of the substance of what was in Mr. Sattar's 17 letter, did you engage in a conversation with your client and 18 Mr. Yousry as to the substance of the correspondence when 19 Mr. Yousry was reading it to Abdel Rahman? 20 A. Not that I recall. 21 Q. Now the next day you, Mr. Abdel Rahman responded to 22 Mr. Sattar's letter, is that right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And did you participate in any of that part of the 25 conversation when Abdel Rahman was responding to that letter? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8272 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. I do not recall participating in that part of the 2 correspondence between Mr. Yousry and the Sheikh. 3 Q. Do you remember at any point during that two-day visit 4 engaging your client, Abdel Rahman, through Mr. Yousry, in any 5 conversation about Mr. Sattar's letter and in substance of the 6 letter? I'm sorry. 7 A. I don't recall doing it. May be there but at this moment I 8 don't recall having any discussion. 9 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I display for the witness 10 and the jury a portion of Government Exhibit 1706X, which is 11 the transcript of the videotaped conversation of that visit? 12 THE COURT: Yes. In evidence? 13 MR. DEMBER: In evidence, right. Sorry, your Honor. 14 I got the numbers wrong, 1711X, which is in evidence. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 Q. Let me just show the front, first page of that part of that 17 transcript. It indicates the visit in Minnesota on May 20th, 18 2000; Ms. Stewart, that was the second day of the visit, is 19 that right? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. And at some point during the second day of the visit you 22 got into a discussion with Mr. Yousry and your client about 23 Mr. Fitzgerald, is that right? Do you remember that? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You also had mentioned Mr. McCarthy as well, Andrew SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8273 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 McCarthy? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Those were both -- those were two of the three prosecutors 4 who were on the case where your client Abdel Rahman was 5 prosecuted, is that right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Let me just turn to page 5 of that transcript. And at some 8 point I am going to refer you here to line 8, Mr. Yousry says, 9 in English: Who stops Dr. Aziza from visiting? Is it this 10 prison or is it the Judge? It is uh, uh, um. 11 Dr. Aziza, I think you told us is the wife of Mohammed 12 Nadil Masry, is that right? 13 A. Yes. She is a doctor in New Jersey, yes. 14 Q. And you respond to Mr. Yousry by saying: The SAMs. 15 Then Mr. Yousry asks: McCarthy? 16 That's Andrew McCarthy he is referring to? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you say: It's the SAMs... well, McCarthy is gone. 19 Do you mean by that that Mr. McCarthy left the U.S. 20 Attorney's office at the time? 21 A. Yes. He was no longer employed there. 22 Q. Then he says: Okay, who, who's, who's took this as a -- 23 Then you say: SAM is the Fitzgerald. 24 That's Pat Fitzgerald you are referring to? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8274 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry says: Who is responsible for SAM, is it 2 Fitzgerald? 3 And you say: Fitzgerald. 4 Then there is some discussion there about Dr. Aziza 5 again. 6 Then at the bottom Mr. Yousry asks: Can Fitzgerald 7 allow that? 8 Meaning, I guess, Dr. Aziza to come visit. 9 Is it in his power or he has to ask Janet Reno? 10 Mr. Yousry asked that question, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then you responded: No, I think anything is in his 13 power. 14 Meaning Mr. Fitzgerald's power, did you mean that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Okay. Then, skipping down a few lines to line 19 -- 17 actually jumping to line 15, it says: How about if you try 18 with, with him? Don't let Abdeen or the other guys to try, you 19 try. 20 Do you know what he was referring to there? 21 A. I think he was saying that I might have more success asking 22 Pat Fitzgerald to allow her to come in than perhaps Abdeen or 23 Ramsey would have. 24 Let me just get a drink? 25 Q. Certainly. Yes, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8275 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Thank you. 2 Q. Now, a couple lines down you say: I will try. But he is 3 much more evil than McCarthy. 4 Is the 'he' you are referring to Mr. Fitzgerald? 5 A. I'm afraid so. There is a quantum of loose talk in visit 6 with a client but it was referring to Mr. Fitzgerald. 7 Q. And then on the next page, page 7, line 4, Mr. Yousry says: 8 MR. RUHNKE: Excuse me, may I just have a moment with 9 Mr. Dember? 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 (Counsel conferring) 12 BY MR. DEMBER: 13 Q. I'm sorry, let me start before that, line 3. Mr. Abdel 14 Rahman: We thought that McCarthy was more dangerous. 15 That says that in the transcript there? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And Mr. Yousry translates: We thought that McCarthy was 18 really a, a devil. 19 And then you say: A devil. Well, Fitzgerald I think 20 is more so. He's uh, he's uh, he's like a crusader. 21 And then the next line down you say: He has it in his 22 heart. 23 THE COURT: In the. 24 Q. He has it in the heart. 25 I'm sorry, your Honor. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8276 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Then Mr. Yousry is translating apparently in Arabic. 2 He says: Fitzgerald is different from McCarthy, Fitzgerald -- 3 Fitzgerald believes in all these things in his heart. He has 4 the faith of doing them the same way as the crusaders did. 5 He says crusader in English. 6 I mean, the same as the crusaders battle. He is more 7 dangerous this way. 8 Abdel Rahman says: Ah. 9 Then you say: This will never happen again. This 10 will never be -- there will never be a bomb explodes [sic] and 11 an American Embassy again. You know. 12 Let me ask you about that. In the transcript there 13 what I just read, for the most part, is in quotes, is that 14 correct? 15 A. That's right. 16 Q. Were you actually quoting a statement Mr. Fitzgerald had 17 made in the past? 18 A. He actually made that to a client of mine who was about to 19 go in to testify before the grand jury who was investigating 20 the African embassy bombings and he sort of gave him a brief 21 lecture and pep talk before he went into the grand jury room. 22 Q. Now, when you refer to bomb explodes and an American 23 Embassy in there, were you referring to the bombing of the two 24 American Embassies in Africa? 25 A. I wasn't referring, Mr. Fitzgerald was referring. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8277 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. When you were referring to this quote or this statement, 2 were you referring to the two, the bombings at the two African 3 embassies in Africa in 1998? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 Q. And those are the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Fitzgerald was involved 8 in the case, the prosecution of persons who were accused of 9 participating in those bombings? 10 A. I understand that he was, yes. 11 Q. And was it your understanding that he was the chief 12 prosecutor? 13 A. I don't know what role he played. 14 Q. And from your understanding of that case, from all your 15 knowledge from whatever source, did you understand that many 16 people were killed as a result of those bombings? 17 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. Relevance. 18 THE COURT: Overruled. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that was common knowledge. 20 BY MR. DEMBER:: 21 Q. Over 200 people? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I just show the witness a 24 transcript which was used as an aid, your Honor, to a recording 25 that was in English, Government Exhibit 1253X -- it was just SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8278 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 used as an aid -- it is a one-page document, may I display it 2 to the jury and ask the witness some questions? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Ms. Stewart, take a look at that for a moment. Do you 5 recognize that transcript? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And do you recall the recording that we played back a 8 couple months ago during the course of this trial? 9 A. I do remember. 10 Q. And that was a -- this is a transcript pertained to a call 11 that you had made to Mr. Sattar's home, is that right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you left a voice mail message on his, on a recording 14 device of some kind? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And you indicated I believe here, that you had essentially 17 a copy of some indictment, the Bin Laden indictment, is that 18 correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did you actually provide Mr. Sattar with that copy of the 21 Bin Laden indictment that you referred to in that call? 22 A. I don't recall whether it was -- it was back in '98 I 23 think. I don't recall that he came to the office and picked it 24 up. 25 I recall that he requested it and we had discussed it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8279 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 seemed to be a lot of the same verbiage that which the Sheikh 2 had been earlier described. So he said I will have to read 3 that. And I said I have a copy here. 4 I had been asked -- at least I remember checking with 5 Pat Fitzgerald to see if it would be possible for me to 6 represent someone in this case and him telling me that that 7 would be a, quote, conflict of interest. 8 So, at that point I had no further interest. 9 Q. Is that Bin Laden indictment that you referred to in that 10 call, is that one of the indictments in the embassy bombing 11 case? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Mr. Bin Laden was listed in that indictment? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. By the way, did you ever ask Pat Fitzgerald if Dr. Aziza 16 could visit with Abdel Rahman? 17 A. I may have called him. I don't remember, really. 18 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, after the visit, at some point in time 19 apparently after the visit, that affirmation that you had 20 signed on May 16th, 2000 was sent to the U.S. Attorney's 21 office, is that right? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Now, I think you told us you took what you thought was a 24 copy of the affirmation with you on the trip to Rochester in 25 May 2000? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8280 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. Right. But you rightly pointed out that I had it faxed to 2 me out there or the page -- no, no, no. I'm confusing the two. 3 Excuse me. 4 No, I did take that with me. Yes. 5 Q. And at some point in time the original of that document was 6 actually sent to the United States Attorney's office, is that 7 right? 8 A. It was. 9 Q. Now, do you remember if before you went on your trip to 10 Rochester in May 2000 you handed it to a secretary or somebody 11 else in your office to send to the U.S. Attorney's office, or 12 whether you actually physically did that once you came back 13 from Rochester? 14 A. I think I just left it in the outbox and said put a cover 15 letter on this and send it over to Pat Fitzgerald over at the 16 U.S. Attorney's office and then forgot about it completely. 17 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I display Government 18 Exhibit number 7, in evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm showing you Exhibit number 7, and that is 21 the affirmation that you signed and dated May 16th, 2000? 22 A. That's correct. 23 Q. Now, let me turn to the second page of this exhibit. It 24 appears to be a letter on your letterhead, is that correct? 25 A. That's right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8281 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And it's dated May 26, 2000 and it's addressed to 2 Mr. Butler and it states: Enclosed please find my signed 3 "attorney's affirmation" with regard to Sheikh Omar Abdel 4 Rahman. Very truly yours. Lynne F. Stewart. 5 Is that your signature or a stamp that your secretary 6 used? 7 A. That was a stamp. 8 Q. At any event, it was at some point in time sent to the U.S. 9 Attorney's office, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, you left Rochester -- did you leave 12 Rochester on the 20th of May, do you remember, or was it the 13 21st? 14 A. If the 21st was a Sunday then we left on the 21st. 15 If the 20th was a Sunday, probably not, probably the 16 21st in the early morning. 17 Q. So the visit was on the 19th and the 20th and then you 18 think you may have left the following day? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Once you left your visit with Abdel Rahman on May 20th, did 21 you speak to him again while you were in Rochester? 22 A. No, that wouldn't have been possible. He was not 23 authorized to make calls to us any place but in the offices. 24 Q. And once you left on the 20th you didn't go back on the 25 21st or some other time before you left Rochester to visit? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8282 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 A. No. They're very strict about weekend visits. They only 2 would allow us to have Saturday. 3 Q. Now, I think you told us in your direct testimony that you 4 issued a press release on June 13th, 2000, is that correct? 5 A. That's right. 6 Q. And did you visit Abdel Rahman between May 20th and June 7 13th? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you speak to Abdel Rahman on the telephone between May 10 20th and the time you issued a press release on June 13th? 11 A. I don't believe so. I was on trial in state court. It 12 seems unlikely that I would have been available during those 13 early morning hours. I have no recollection of speaking to 14 him, so I think my answer would be no, I didn't speak to him. 15 Q. Now, you told us that before you issued the press release 16 you talked to other people, is that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. You talked to Mr. Sattar, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. You talked to Mr. Yousry? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You talked to some lawyers? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Clark you think? 25 A. Pretty certain. And up in his office probably in Abdeen SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8283 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Jabara's actual office I spoke to them about that. 2 Q. But you have no recollection of speaking to your client 3 from the time that you left him during the visit to the time 4 that you issued the press release? 5 A. That's correct. I have no recollection of that. 6 Q. Now, did you have any conversations between May 20th and 7 June 13th when you issued the press release with Pat 8 Fitzgerald? 9 A. Unless I called him about Dr. Aziza I don't think I would 10 have had any calls with Pat Fitzgerald during that period. 11 Q. Well, during that period did you have any conversations 12 with him in person or by telephone about the SAMs themselves? 13 A. No. 14 Q. Did you have any conversation with him about the press 15 release? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Did you at any point ask him or talk to him -- withdrawn. 18 At any point did you ask him whether he thought it was 19 appropriate under the SAMs to issue a press release? 20 A. No. I thought we had a certain amount of precedence that 21 for Mr. Clark, having issued a number of press releases before 22 this. And so, I thought I explained I thought it was part of 23 what was permissible to carry out the attorney-client 24 relationship and the work, actually, of representing Sheikh 25 Omar. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8284 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Ms. Stewart, did you talk to anybody at the United States 2 Attorney's office on the phone or in person between May 20th 3 and June 13th about the press release? 4 A. No, I didn't. 5 Q. Did you talk to anybody at the Department of Justice about, 6 between May 20th and June 13th, about the press release? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Did you talk to anybody at the Bureau of Prisons between 9 May 20th and June 13th about this press release? 10 A. No, I did not. 11 Q. Did you have any conversations with any of those agencies, 12 anybody from any of those agencies, about the Special 13 Administrative Measures between May 20th and June 13th? 14 A. No. 15 The way we work we don't usually call the adversary, I 16 guess you would call them, to let them know this is what we are 17 going to do next. 18 Q. When you say adversary, Ms. Stewart, were you engaged in 19 some kind of legal adversarial proceedings with the government 20 at that time with respect to your client Abdel Rahman? 21 A. Well, I think the imposition of the SAMs was adversarial in 22 the sense that the government had what we perceived as an 23 intent, and so I still consider the government and the Bureau 24 of Prisons to be adversarial vis-a-vis my loyalty to the 25 client. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8285 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Well, my question was, though, did you have an 2 adversarial -- withdrawn. I am going to ask the question again 3 or differently. 4 Were you engaged in any legal proceedings in court 5 with the government with respect to the SAMs or press release 6 or attorney affirmations at that time? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Now, you said you viewed your relationship with the 9 government or Bureau of Prisons, somebody, Fitzgerald I guess 10 as adversarial I guess at that time? 11 A. It maybe used too strong a term but certainly I believe 12 that it was Mr. Fitzgerald who made the decisions with regard 13 to the conditions of my client's confinement and was 14 responsible, in large part, for the issuance and the continued 15 issuance of those Special Administrative Measures. 16 Q. Well, we talked about this last week. You understood, did 17 you not, that there were people in higher positions within the 18 U.S. Attorney's office where he worked that Mr. Fitzgerald had 19 to answer to, correct? 20 A. Oh yes. 21 Q. And I think you told us last week you never called or wrote 22 any of those people seeking a review of Mr. Fitzgerald, which 23 you viewed as Mr. Fitzgerald's positions or his work with 24 respect to the Special Administrative Measures, is that right? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8286 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And you never -- you knew and understood that Janet Reno 2 had to officially issue those Special Administrative Measures, 3 would you not? 4 A. Yes. They were under her signature, or on her signature. 5 Q. And I think you told us last week you didn't write to or 6 call, or try to in any way communicate with anybody at the 7 Department of Justice in Washington about those Special 8 Administrative Measures, is that right? 9 A. That's correct. 10 Q. You told us last week, though, that you actually were in 11 agreement when you signed the attorney affirmation saying that 12 you would abide by the Special Administrative Measures that you 13 had entered into an agreement, correct? 14 A. I think I lost the thread of the question, Mr. Dember. I'm 15 sorry. 16 Q. I will ask it again. 17 I think last week you had discussion on, I believe it 18 was Thursday, where we talked about SAMs and the attorney 19 affirmation that you signed, correct? And you told us that 20 when you signed the attorney affirmation you had to sign an 21 agreement, correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And the agreement that you had signed was with the 24 government, correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8287 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And the face of the government, at least the person who you 2 saw as the government when it came to these SAMs was Pat 3 Fitzgerald, correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 But as I said, we also did discuss that I think that I 6 thought they were delimited, as I described, by the need to do 7 the work for the client. 8 Q. My question though is, you had entered an agreement with 9 the government, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8288 4B85SAT1 Stewart - cross 1 BY MR. TIGAR: 2 Q. And essentially Pat Fitzgerald was the point person you 3 dealt with for the government in that agreement? 4 A. Yes, but it was my understanding that unsigned, we would be 5 cut off from the client, or I would be cut off from the client. 6 In other words, if they weren't signed, then there was no 7 recourse except to go through maybe years of litigation to 8 enable to do the work and see the client. 9 And so as I talked about last week, I don't want to 10 repeat it necessarily, but -- about contracts of adhesion, 11 contracts you sign because there's no other way to accomplish 12 what you need to accomplish. So it's an agreement, but it's a 13 little bit -- 14 Q. Well, at any point in time from the time you first signed 15 an attorney affirmation and entered agreement with the 16 government until June 13, 2000, when you issued the press 17 release, did you ever write or call to Pat Fitzgerald or 18 anybody else from the government and try to negotiate different 19 terms of that agreement? 20 A. No. 21 Q. You never even tried? 22 A. No, because we were doing the work and we were doing it 23 what we thought was satisfactorily. And although we felt it 24 was an imposition on the client, it didn't interfere with our 25 ability to fully represent him under the circumstances. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8289 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Well, Ms. Stewart, you testified, did you not, that you 2 thought that Mr. Fitzgerald might disagree with your right to 3 issue a press -- the press release that you actually issued in 4 this case, did you not? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. OK. And my question, though, is: Did you call him up and 7 ask him about it? 8 A. Did I -- did I actually write -- did I write disagree, is 9 that my words? At any rate, I did not call him up, Mr. Dember, 10 no. 11 Q. Did you at any point call him up and hypothetically -- 12 excuse me, ask him in a hypothetical question, would it be 13 appropriate in your view, Mr. Fitzgerald, if, after conversing 14 with Abdel Rahman, somebody would have issued a statement to 15 the press saying something; did you do that at all? 16 A. No. 17 Q. By the way, the other people that you discussed the press 18 release with before you issued it, they were not the other 19 party to your agreement, is that right? In other words, 20 Mr. Sattar, Mr. Yousry weren't the other party that you had 21 an agreement with, as indicated by this signing of the 22 affirmation? 23 A. Yes, it -- the discussions with them, I think, were mainly 24 practical as opposed to ethical, let us say. I think my 25 discussions with Mr. Jabara and Mr. Clark were more along the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8290 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 ethical line. 2 Q. Now, did you believe -- did you understand, Ms. Stewart, 3 that if you had called Pat Fitzgerald up and either in a 4 hypothetical question or a more direct question asked him the 5 propriety of issuing a press release, he would have told you it 6 was not allowed by the SAMs? 7 A. I don't know what he would have said. I would tend to 8 believe that would have been his response. 9 Q. Now, I think you told us that about three weeks after 10 his -- on June 13th, 2000, you issued a press release, is that 11 right? 12 A. That's right. 13 Q. And you told us about Mr. Sattar helping you to get 14 connected with or connect you with the Egyptian reporter, Esmat 15 Salaheddin? 16 A. That's right. 17 Q. And did you know Mr. Salaheddin before Mr. Sattar connected 18 you to him? 19 A. No. I knew he was the Reuters reporter from Reuters news 20 service. I knew of him, I think, but I did not know him, no. 21 Q. Had you ever spoken to him before? 22 A. Not that I recall. 23 Q. And was he the only reporter that you spoke to and issued 24 this press release through or to? 25 A. Yes. It was my understanding it would go through Reuters SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8291 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 on their wire, and others would be able to pick it up from 2 that. 3 Q. Well, you didn't call the New York Times, did you, to 4 report to them or issue a press release to them? 5 A. No. 6 Q. Did you know reporters from the New York Times back then? 7 A. I knew reporters certainly. 8 Q. For example, a reporter covered the federal courts named 9 Ben Wiser, do you know Mr. Wiser? 10 A. Yes. Was he covering them then? I'm not sure of that, but 11 he certainly does cover the courts, did cover the courts. 12 Q. Did you call up the -- any of the other New York 13 newspapers, The Daily News, for example, to issue a press 14 release to them? 15 A. No. 16 Q. How about Newsday, did you call anybody from Newsday to 17 issue a press release? 18 A. No. 19 Q. And any other -- did you call any other New York papers to 20 issue the press release? 21 A. Didn't call any New York papers. I thought they would pick 22 it up from Reuters, if it was something they wanted to run 23 with. 24 Q. Well, by the way, did you call the Washington Post, by any 25 chance? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8292 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. Well, you said you called Reuters, thinking the other 3 papers would pick it up from Reuters, is that right? 4 A. Yeah. 5 Q. And you were familiar with at least one other reporter from 6 Reuters, were you not, before you spoke with Esmat Salaheddin? 7 A. Do you mean Jean King? 8 Q. Do you know Jean King? 9 A. Yes, very well. 10 Q. OK. She's a Reuters reporter? 11 A. She is a Reuters reporter. 12 Q. She's a Reuters reporter based in New York? 13 A. She's based in New York. 14 Q. You had known her before you issued the press release, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You had conversations with her? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Did you ever have dinner with her actually? 20 A. I think I went to her home once, some party. I went to her 21 husband's funeral. He passed away during the trial, actually. 22 Q. Were you friendly with her? 23 A. Yes, I was friendly with Jean. 24 Q. Did you call up Jean King from Reuters and say, I've got a 25 press release, may I give it to you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8293 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. No. It was mainly to be released through the Arabic press. 2 Q. Oh. Was the point of talking to Mr. Salaheddin to get the 3 release into the Arabic press; that was the point of it? 4 A. Well, it was the point of departure. We thought that -- or 5 at least I thought that this would be the appropriate place to 6 start. And actually, I don't think any of the New York papers 7 or US papers picked up the story at all. 8 Q. Now, how did it come to pass that you spoke to 9 Mr. Salaheddin? Did you say to Mr. Sattar, do you know this 10 reporter, get me in contact with him? Who made the decision to 11 speak to Mr. Salaheddin? 12 A. Mr. Sattar had basically said that he had this contact and 13 he would place the call for me; that Mr. Salaheddin was ready 14 to hear the release. 15 Q. Did he tell you why, or did you discuss with him why he 16 chose Mr. Salaheddin? 17 A. No, but I guess hearing that Mr. Salaheddin was based in 18 Cairo and was the Reuters reporter in Cairo was sort of 19 self-explanatory. 20 Q. And you knew when you spoke to Mr. Salaheddin that he was 21 based in Cairo? 22 A. Yes, I think so. 23 Q. Now, I think you told us during your direct testimony that 24 when you issued -- spoke to Mr. Salaheddin, you had some kind 25 of a synopsis or a document that you read to Mr. Salaheddin, is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8294 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And I think you told us you don't have that document 4 anymore, is that right? 5 A. I don't. 6 Q. Who actually prepared that document that you read from? 7 A. I couldn't tell you, Mr. Dember. I know that it was on 8 a -- it was in handwriting. It was not a typed item. And to 9 the best of my recollection, it was on lined paper, white lined 10 paper, like a half sheet. It was not long. 11 Q. Now, I think you told us that when you spoke to 12 Mr. Salaheddin, you did so from your office here in Manhattan? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And Mr. Sattar was present with you at the time? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And was Mr. Yousry present? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Was there anybody else present -- was it done actually in 19 your office itself? 20 A. It was done in my office, yes. 21 Q. Was anybody else in the room with you or Mr. Sattar when 22 you issued the press release? 23 A. Not that I recall. My people that were working for us 24 would have been out in the office immediately outside, but 25 they're not close enough to participate or hear anything. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8295 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. By the way, was your office at that time at 351 Broadway? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And I think you told us that Mr. Sattar had set it up so 4 that the reporter knew beforehand that you would eventually 5 call him and issue this press release? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And what did Mr. Sattar tell you about that? 8 A. Just that he had arranged for the reporter or that the 9 reporter was available. Not even sure he said he had arranged; 10 it was that the reporter would be available and he would come 11 at such-and-such a time and place the call, and I would make 12 the press release. 13 Q. Did Mr. Sattar place the call? 14 A. As far as I recall. I don't know who did the actual 15 dialing but ... 16 Q. Do you remember actually paying for the -- on the phone 17 bill a call to Egypt? 18 A. I guess we must have, but I can't say that I remember doing 19 it. 20 Q. Now, you heard Mr. Salaheddin's testimony several weeks 21 ago, is that right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Do you remember other -- saying to him anything other than 24 what he told us you said to him? 25 A. No. I -- what I remember is that I read it to him from the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8296 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 piece of paper and he started to ask me some questions. And I 2 said, I'm just making a release. I'm not making any comments. 3 I'm just giving you the words of the Sheikh. 4 And then I recalled that I did give the phone to 5 Mr. Sattar and he did speak with him for fairly -- as I recall 6 a brief time after that. 7 Q. OK. 8 A. In Arabic. 9 Q. My question is: You heard Mr. Salaheddin's testimony, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you've in the past read the article that Mr. Salaheddin 13 wrote about the press release? 14 A. Well, the article, yes. 15 Q. The article itself? 16 A. Yeah. Yeah. 17 Q. My question for you, though, is: Does -- did what 18 Mr. Salaheddin testify about, meaning the substance of your 19 conversation, and what was reported in any article that you saw 20 about the press release written by him, contain essentially all 21 of the substance of what you told him over the phone? 22 A. Yes. When I read over the paper that I was holding when I 23 read it to him, it appeared that that was the substance of what 24 the Sheikh had said to us out in Rochester. And I read it 25 verbatim. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8297 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. I ask the question slightly differently. Do you remember 2 there being anything else that you told Mr. Salaheddin that 3 didn't appear in his article? 4 A. No. But what I'm having trouble remembering is what was in 5 the article that I might not have told him that he might have 6 added. I know all I told him was the exact release, that's 7 what I recall. 8 Q. Now -- 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor -- 10 THE COURT: Yes, we can -- why don't we take a brief 11 break. 12 Ladies and gentlemen, we'll break for ten minutes. 13 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please, please, 14 don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an 15 open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've 16 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 17 begin your deliberations. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8298 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, with respect to the pending 3 objection, that -- I'd like a do-over. I'd like to withdraw 4 the objection, upon sitting here thinking about it. 5 I apologize to Mr. Dember. I don't think the 6 objection is well taken, so I withdraw it. 7 THE COURT: OK. All right. See you shortly. 8 (Recess) 9 THE COURT: All right. If Ms. Stewart could take the 10 stand. 11 Anything else before Ms. Stewart takes the stand? No? 12 (Continued on next page) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8299 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Stewart is on the stand. 3 Mr. Fletcher? 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Ms. Stewart, you are reminded you 5 are still under oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Dember, you may proceed. 8 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor. 9 BY MR. DEMBER: 10 Q. Ms. Stewart, I think you told us when I asked you about who 11 actually wrote the synopsis you referred to that you read from 12 to Mr. Salaheddin, did you say that you -- it wasn't your 13 handwriting? 14 A. It was not in my handwriting, no. 15 Q. Do you recall whether it was in Mr. Sattar's handwriting? 16 A. I explained that I really -- I cannot remember whether it 17 was -- whose handwriting it was in. I know it wasn't my own. 18 Q. OK. Well, you had spoken to Mr. Yousry -- Mr. Yousry 19 actually had translated for you what Abdel Rahman had told him 20 in response to Mr. Sattar's letter, is that right? 21 A. That's right. 22 Q. And did you see -- during the visit, May 20, 2000, did you 23 see Mr. Yousry writing as Abdel Rahman was speaking to him? 24 A. Oh, yeah. He read it to me from his notebook -- he read it 25 to me from his notebook. I -- I don't have any trouble SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8300 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 remembering that. I remember that, but I don't remember whose 2 handwriting that was on the piece of paper I actually read from 3 at the -- to Mr. Salaheddin. 4 Q. Well, when Mr. Yousry was writing in his notebook during 5 the visit, did he write in Arabic language? 6 A. He did, but sometimes he would make a note in English, as 7 we've seen on some of these. But basically it was all in 8 Arabic, yes. 9 Q. Well, when Abdel Rahman was responding to Mr. Sattar's 10 letter on May 20, 2000, during the visit, did you see 11 Mr. Yousry writing Abdel Rahman's response in Arabic or English 12 or both? 13 A. In Arabic. 14 Q. OK. And it was after the visit, I think you told us, that 15 Mr. Yousry for the first time read or translated for you what 16 Abdel Rahman had told him, correct? 17 A. Yes, I believe so. He may have mentioned something about a 18 press -- going to the press during the visit, but I don't think 19 it had any specifics or particulars in it. 20 Q. OK. And was it on your trip home from Rochester that 21 Mr. Yousry read from his notes the response that Abdel Rahman 22 gave him to Mr. Sattar's letter? 23 A. That's what I recall, yes, that he read from the notebook 24 on the way home. 25 Q. Now, before issuing the press release, did you ever meet SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8301 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 with Mr. Sattar and Mr. Yousry at the same time to discuss the 2 press release? 3 A. No, not that I recall. 4 Q. OK. Did you ever -- did Mr. Yousry or Mr. Sattar ever tell 5 you that they were getting together to discuss Abdel Rahman's 6 response to Mr. Sattar's letter? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did they ever tell you they had at some point in time 9 before the press release discussed what Abdel Rahman had said 10 in response to Mr. Sattar's letter? 11 A. At the time, of course, I wouldn't know about phone calls 12 back and forth to them, between them, although I think it was 13 my understanding probably in earlier June when it was -- making 14 of the press release was imminent, that they had spoken back 15 and forth. I think my memory is that Mr. Yousry had planned to 16 be at the office when I actually spoke on the phone but did not 17 show up for I don't -- I don't know what reasons, but he was 18 not there. 19 I -- as I said, I was on trial. I'd become -- 18-hour 20 days -- very directed, not looking right or left at the time. 21 I don't know that I knew that they got together. I probably 22 knew that they were speaking to each other about all of the 23 material that we had brought back from Rochester that needed to 24 have distribution. 25 Q. Was it -- did you tell us that the press release synopsis SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8302 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 that you read from was -- is handwritten as opposed to being 2 typed? 3 A. That's what I recall, that it was handwritten on a half 4 sheet of lined paper. 5 Q. And is it your recollection or best recollection that that 6 handwriting was either Mr. Sattar's handwriting or Mr. Yousry's 7 handwriting? 8 A. I'm having trouble conjuring up an image of it. I can only 9 say that I probably would have known that it had to be 10 either/or, because that was the channel it came through. But I 11 cannot testify to you as to whose handwriting I recall being on 12 that note. 13 Q. At any time after you returned from your visit with Abdel 14 Rahman after May 20, 2000, did you -- before the issue -- and 15 before the issuance of the press release, did you have any 16 conversations with Mr. Sattar about what Abdel Rahman had said 17 in response to his letter? 18 A. Not that I recall, but it is possible. I don't recall 19 talking to him about the subject of -- you know, over the phone 20 or in person, either one. 21 Q. Well, did you ever speak to Mr. -- before you spoke to 22 Mr. Salaheddin, did you speak to Mr. Sattar about what you were 23 going to tell Mr. Salaheddin? 24 A. No. I think he had a copy of what the Sheikh had said. I 25 think he had retrieved that and he had a copy, or he had a copy SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8303 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 that he made of what was in the notebook. I'm not sure all 2 these mechanics. I'm really guessing here. 3 I know that when he showed up at my office on the 4 13th, he did have this piece of paper that I believe was the 5 verbatim translation of what the Sheikh had said in Rochester 6 to us on the subject. 7 Q. Well, before you spoke to Mr. Salaheddin, did you ask 8 Mr. Sattar, is this a verbatim translation of what Abdel Rahman 9 had told Mr. Yousry during your visit in May? 10 A. No, I don't think I asked him that. As I explained, we 11 operated on trust. We had worked together for so many years 12 and I trusted him and Mr. Yousry. 13 Q. Well, did you assume, since you didn't ask that, what was 14 in this press release was Abdel Rahman's words as he uttered 15 them in May 2000? 16 A. The essence of what I -- had been translated to me on the 17 trip back, yes, I did believe it was. 18 Q. And before you spoke to Mr. Salaheddin, did you actually 19 read through the synopsis? 20 A. Yes, undoubtedly. 21 Q. OK. And was it consistent with what Mr. Yousry had 22 translated for you on the way home from Rochester in May? 23 A. Substantially, yes, I think it was. To me it was what he 24 had said or what I understood, anyway. I don't know whether it 25 was what he said, but it was clearly what I understood. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8304 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Now, I think you testified last week -- or actually not 2 last week but the previous week, in your direct testimony that 3 you told us that your understanding of what Abdel Rahman had 4 told Mr. Yousry in response to Mr. Sattar's letter was that 5 they shouldn't cancel the ceasefire; is that part of your 6 understanding? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. OK. But that he did want to modify it in some fashion, 9 right? Do you remember saying that? 10 A. It was my understanding that he was not calling for the 11 cancellation but he definitely thought that a serious 12 reconsideration of cancellation, and that personally was his 13 personal belief that it was not working. 14 Q. And did you also tell us that your understanding was that 15 he wanted to release, or he wanted the members of the group, 16 the Islamic Group, to be able to now resume criticizing the 17 government? 18 A. Yes, that's what I understood in the escalating the media 19 thing, that he -- that was part of the release; that that part 20 of that statement dealt with not remaining silent around what 21 was happening in Egypt. I think there were trials of teenagers 22 and various other things that had been reported to him. 23 Q. And is it your recollection that you told Mr. Salaheddin 24 that Abdel Rahman advocated accelerating the media or -- 25 A. Escalating I think was his word. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8305 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Escalating the media? 2 A. Yeah. 3 Q. And did you tell us that your understanding was that Abdel 4 Rahman, essentially what he was saying in his press release was 5 that the group should reopen its dialogue amongst them, the 6 members themselves, to discuss whether or not the initiative 7 was working or not? 8 A. I'm not sure I understood it to be only among themselves, 9 but certainly people who were, as we would say here, on the 10 ground in Egypt, that he was too isolated and too removed to 11 give anything but an opinion. But the fact of the matter is 12 that they were there and were daily suffering, should reopen a 13 discussion on this and hear all sides. I do remember he also 14 said that. 15 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Ms. Stewart, I'm going to hand up to you what is in 18 evidence as Government Exhibit 2657. 19 MR. DEMBER: May I display the exhibit for the jury, 20 your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Ms. Stewart, just so that we can orient the jury about this 23 exhibit, we're a little -- we're jumping ahead chronologically 24 a bit here, but this is a -- the first page of the exhibit is a 25 fax cover sheet from your office to Mr. Sattar dated August 28, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8306 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 2000? 2 A. That's correct. 3 Q. And why don't you just take a look through the exhibit for 4 a moment. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You've oriented yourself to the exhibit? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. This is a fax and it contains Mr. Fitzgerald's August 3rd, 9 2000, letter to you? 10 A. It does. 11 Q. And a version of the amended or modified attorney 12 affirmation as it is now proposed that you signed back then? 13 A. That's correct. 14 Q. It also includes some articles attached as well? 15 A. It does. 16 Q. Let me just direct your attention to the article -- the 17 first article that's -- appears in the exhibit, which is dated 18 June 14, 2000? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Have you got that in front of you? 21 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, apparently our technology 22 isn't working at the moment. I'm trying to display this and 23 the Elmo is not working. 24 A. I have it. 25 Q. On yours? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8307 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. RUHNKE: On the screens, just not the big screen. 3 MR. DEMBER: I don't think the jury does, your Honor. 4 Just from my glimpse I see counsel does. 5 THE COURT: Would you -- 6 MR. DEMBER: There it goes. 7 THE COURT: OK. 8 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, could you inquire whether the 9 jury is getting the exhibit on the screen? 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, do you have it on 11 your screens? 12 The jury nods yes. 13 MR. DEMBER: Thank you, your Honor. 14 BY MR. DEMBER: 15 Q. Ms. Stewart, this is the first article that appears in the 16 exhibit, is that correct? 17 A. I didn't catch you, Mr. Dember. I'm sorry. 18 Q. This is the -- of the exhibits -- of the articles attached 19 to this exhibit, is this the first one that appears? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this is -- are you familiar with this article? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. OK. This is Mr. Salaheddin's article reporting on your 24 press release, is it not? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8308 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. And the article is dated the 14th of June, 2000, is that 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that's the day after you had spoken to Mr. Salaheddin? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And obviously Mr. Salaheddin's name appears on the article? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And let me just point you to the second paragraph. It 9 reads, "He is withdrawing his support for the ceasefire that 10 currently exists," Lynne Stewart, the main lawyer for Sheikh 11 Omar Abdel Rahman, told Reuters by telephone from New York. 12 And I think you told us during your direct testimony 13 that, in fact, those are -- that's what you told 14 Mr. Salaheddin? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. So he accurately quoted you as you spoke to him, is that 17 correct? 18 A. That's what I read to him, yes. 19 Q. And do you remember, was that sort of the first thing you 20 told Mr. Salaheddin when you read from this synopsis? 21 A. Yes. I don't think it was a synopsis, it was a -- I 22 thought it was the exact words, a statement. But that was, I 23 believe, the first thing that was said. 24 Q. And then you skip a paragraph, and it states, she read a 25 statement which she said he had issued two weeks ago from his SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8309 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 jail cell in Rochester, Minnesota, which his defense team had 2 held while considering how best to release it. 3 And is that essentially what you told Mr. Salaheddin? 4 A. I don't remember saying those words. He may have asked why 5 we hadn't released it sooner, because it was at that point 6 almost a month since we had made this visit. I probably may 7 have said, well, we were considering best how to do this. 8 Q. Well, do you remember -- those words that I just read are 9 not in quotes, is that right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Do you remember telling him in substance -- making that 12 statement in substance? 13 A. I really don't remember anything but reading the statement. 14 That's what I remember doing. And I remember cutting him off 15 when he started asking questions and saying, I'm not -- this is 16 the Sheikh's statement, this is not my statement. I'm merely 17 relaying this to you. 18 Q. OK. Let's skip down to the next paragraph. It states, 19 Stewart said Sheikh Omar had concluded that the unilateral 20 truce observed by al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya (Islamic Group) since 21 the Luxor slaughter of 58 foreign tourists and 4 Egyptians had 22 brought no advantage to Egypt's biggest militant group. 23 Did you say words to that -- again, that paragraph 24 doesn't have any quotes in it. Do you remember saying words to 25 that effect to Mr. Salaheddin? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8310 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. I don't remember mentioning Luxor or anything about that, 2 and I think actually that's probably not accurate anyway. But 3 I don't remember that at all, no. I don't think I said that. 4 Q. Well, let's go down to the next paragraph where it says, in 5 quotes, there is absolutely nothing moving forward, she 6 quoted -- end quote, she quoted in his statement as saying in 7 Arabic, quote, the thousands of people who are in prison (in 8 Egypt) are still in prison, the military trials continue. 9 Executions are taking place, end quote. 10 Do you recall saying those words to Mr. Salaheddin? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And do you recall -- let's skip down a paragraph to where 13 it says, starts, "the people who launched the ceasefire have 14 good faith but the, parens, Egyptian government has shown no 15 good faith, end quote, Sheikh Omar said in his statement. 16 Does that sound familiar? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And let's go down to the next paragraph where it says, 19 quote, he wants people not to -- 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Dember. 21 THE COURT: Yes, hold on. 22 Q. The next paragraph starts, "he wants people not to place 23 hope in this process because nothing is moving forward," 24 Stewart said. 25 And do you remember saying that to Mr. Salaheddin? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8311 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. I guess so, but the construction is a little confusing to 2 me because now I'm referring to him as "he." But if it -- 3 Mr. Salaheddin said he had a tape-recorder, so I assume he got 4 it right. But the press has sometimes been known not to quite 5 get it right. I know he said not moving forward, that they 6 were not moving forward. 7 Q. I'm going to turn the page. If you like, you can turn the 8 page in front of you. And the second paragraph on that page 9 reads, Stewart said the Sheikh was completely isolated in jail 10 and was not well treated. 11 Again, that's not in quotes, but do you remember 12 saying something in substance like that? 13 A. Yeah, I did comment on his conditions. 14 Q. And let's go down to the next paragraph. Where it says "he 15 is held in solitary confinement. But his faith is very, very 16 strong," she added. "They (US prison authorities) may bar me 17 from visiting him because of this announcement." 18 Do you recall saying those words to Mr. Salaheddin? 19 A. Yes. That was what was implied in the SAMs. 20 Q. And I think there is one more paragraph I'll ask you to 21 read with me. Skip a line, there's the paragraph I'm pointing 22 to. It says, Stewart said Sheikh Omar's legal defense team 23 visits him every few months and calls him once a week. He is 24 permitted one call a month to his wife in Cairo. 25 Did you essentially say that to Mr. Salaheddin as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8312 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 well? 2 A. Well, I wouldn't have said we call him, because we of 3 course don't call him, he calls us. But I'm quibbling here. 4 It's in essence what was the arrangement. 5 Q. I mean, the procedure is the prison officials put the call 6 through to your office or Mr. Clark's office and it's usually 7 two per week, isn't it? 8 A. Yes, at that time it was, yes. 9 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, in -- before you obviously read what you 10 read to Mr. Salaheddin, you knew essentially the substance of 11 what Abdel Rahman was saying, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And one of the things he was saying was he was withdrawing 14 his support for the ceasefire, correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did that surprise you when you read that or when 17 Mr. Yousry translated that for you on your trip back from 18 Rochester to -- back to New York? 19 A. Did it surprise me that he was taking that position? 20 Q. That he was withdrawing his support at that time. 21 A. No. I think he had indicated on earlier visits or in 22 telephone calls that he had some questions about it. 23 Q. Did you say you had telephone conversations with him? 24 A. I'm not sure if it was me or if it was reported to me, but 25 I think it was one of the issues or questions that he had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8313 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 expressed an opinion on a number of times. I'm not sure if it 2 was to me or to one of the other lawyers. 3 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, was it your understanding that Abdel 4 Rahman was taking his positions with respect to the ceasefire 5 based on newspaper reports being read to him, either during 6 prison visits or during the calls with his attorneys? 7 A. Yeah. He, of course, had a really tremendous understanding 8 of the politics of Egypt and indeed the Middle East. And 9 that -- which sort of stopped at the point that he was 10 restricted from listening to Arabic broadcasts and having 11 visits. But he still remained a resource in that way. And he 12 did hear the newspapers and the telephone calls and on the 13 visits and received, to my knowledge, reports from people who 14 were there or who told him what was happening. When I say 15 that, I mean the observations we sometimes brought in to the 16 jail or reported to him on the phone. 17 Q. Well, when you say observations reported to him, you're 18 talking about something other than from newspaper accounts? 19 A. I think that there were observations, such as, I think, if 20 you -- we look back at the letters from -- that were sent in 21 from Nasser or from Sattar, even they had certain observations 22 that they asked him to comment on. So he got information from 23 sources other than just the newspaper, but -- and I think 24 that's what -- I think that's how he formed his opinion. 25 Q. Well, were you aware whether or not some of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8314 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 observations made by Mr. Sattar, for example, in any letters or 2 correspondence he sent in to Abdel Rahman contained the 3 observations or opinions or views of others who were actually 4 in the Middle East? 5 A. I think I understood that he conveyed material from 6 Muntasir Al-Zayat on occasion or others whose names I can't 7 come up with, but I know he was our link to Muntasir and also 8 the family of the Sheikh. 9 Q. Well, do you know whether or not Mr. Sattar in any of his 10 correspondence that was read to Abdel Rahman pointed out or 11 informed Abdel Rahman of the views of a person named Rifa'i 12 Taha? 13 A. I believe in this very letter on the visit it was -- it was 14 referred to Abu Yasir, I think, was the reference in that. But 15 I'm not sure it had an observation or whether it merely asked 16 the question. 17 Q. Well, was it your understanding at the time that Abu Yasir 18 was this fellow, Rifa'i Taha? 19 A. No, I -- as I said earlier, I had no idea where he was, 20 what he was, what role he played. 21 Q. Or who he was? 22 A. Or who he was at all. 23 Q. And I think we asked you some questions last week about 24 whether you had inquired of anyone who this person was, and you 25 indicated you had not, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8315 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. No. I just understood he was one of the support network. 2 Q. Now, Ms. Stewart, I want to just go back briefly to this 3 article that we just reviewed by Mr. Salaheddin, which is -- 4 I'll put it back on the Elmo, your Honor. 5 And do you have that in front of you? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. Now, in the first statement from you that's reported, it 8 says "he," referring -- and I'm now referring to the second 9 paragraph -- he, which I believe that's Abdel Rahman, is that 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. OK. Is withdrawing his support for the ceasefire. 13 That's what it says, correct? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. And you also, I believe -- if you give me a moment, also on 16 that same page, towards the bottom, the third paragraph from 17 the bottom, it reads "the people who launched the ceasefire 18 have good faith but the Egyptian government has shown no good 19 faith." OK? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, in both of those statements -- parts of the statement 22 that you issued you use the word ceasefire, is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. You didn't use the word initiative, did you? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8316 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. You didn't use -- 2 A. Peace initiative. 3 Q. You didn't use the word peace initiative, did you not? 4 A. I'm sorry? 5 Q. Did you? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You used the word ceasefire. And the word ceasefire, would 8 you agree, is somewhat of a military term, is it not? 9 A. Yes. I think that I should have had in there his personal 10 support. 11 Q. Well, a ceasefire is essentially a military order to stop 12 firing, isn't it? That's what the word means? 13 A. That's the understanding, yes. 14 Q. It's sort of a suspension of hostilities? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Another way of defining it, it's essentially a stopping of 17 violence, a truce, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Those are all ways of looking at what a ceasefire is. You 20 didn't say in this press release that Abdel Rahman wants his 21 group to or the people within his group to start talking about 22 whether the initiative is good or bad, did you? 23 A. I thought that was included in there. 24 Q. Well, did you ask, or did you issue as part of this 25 statement any statement indicating that Abdel Rahman wanted SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8317 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 members of the group to resume criticizing the government? 2 A. I believe that was part of the statement but it was not 3 used by Mr. Salaheddin, probably for good reason. 4 Q. Now, when you -- you told us, I think, when you issued this 5 press release you had not discussed it with Abdel Rahman, is 6 that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. You had no discussions with him about what should be said 9 to the media, is that right? 10 A. No. This was his -- to my understanding, this was his 11 response to the question that was put to him. 12 Q. And -- but my question is: You didn't have a discussion 13 with him as to what should be said in the press release? 14 A. No, I had no discussion with him. 15 Q. In fact, you had no discussion with him as to whether or 16 not a press release should be issued, did you? 17 A. Yes. I think there was some slight discussion, maybe, but 18 no more than a couple of lines about there's been something set 19 up for a press release when you get back. 20 Q. Well, wasn't that -- those comments made before Abdel 21 Rahman ever responded to Mr. Sattar's letter? 22 A. You could be right, Mr. Dember, but I thought it was after. 23 But it's there, whatever -- 24 Q. Just your recollection. 25 A. Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8318 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 Q. Was that comment about some kind of a conversation you were 2 to have with somebody named Mohammed Salah? Do you recall 3 that? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Did you at any point before the issuance of the press 6 release speak with Abdel Rahman about the substance of what 7 should be said? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So -- nor did you have a conversation with Abdel Rahman 10 about the choice of words that should be used in issuing the 11 press release? 12 A. No. I relied upon the exchange that was had in the prison. 13 Q. Now, you understood that it was the leadership or leaders 14 of the Islamic Group that had called for the ceasefire, was 15 that right? 16 A. I believe initially, yes. 17 Q. And I think you told us you knew that Muntasir Al-Zayat was 18 a lawyer in Cairo is that right? 19 A. That's right. 20 Q. And he had some kind of association with members of the 21 Islamic Group? 22 A. I believe he was their attorney. 23 Q. And you knew who he was, you had the name, is that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In fact, I think you told us in your testimony that he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8319 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 remained for you and Mr. Clark sort of the point person in 2 terms of maintaining contact with supporters in Egypt with 3 people who could, we thought, give us a correct perception of 4 what was happening in Egypt with the government, with the 5 authorities and with the supporters. 6 I'm reading from page 7651 of the transcript. Does 7 that sound familiar? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Well, before you decided to issue this press release, did 10 you call Muntasir Al-Zayat to get a sense of the conditions in 11 Egypt at the time? 12 A. No, I don't think I ever spoke to Mr. Al-Zayat on the 13 phone. 14 Q. Well, did you ask or direct Mr. Sattar or Mr. Yousry to 15 call Muntasir Al-Zayyat to get a sense of what was happening in 16 Egypt before you issued this press release? 17 A. No, but it would only have been Mr. Sattar that would have 18 made a call to Egypt for us. 19 Q. Was Mr. Sattar the one -- a member of the defense team who 20 would do that sort of thing? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. But you didn't ask him to do that, did you? 23 A. No. 24 Q. Did you have any conversations with Mr. Sattar about doing 25 such a thing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 8320 4B8ESAT2 Stewart - cross 1 A. No, not that I recall. 2 Q. Now, let me just ask you, I asked you some questions last 3 week about -- let me ask you just a few more. 4 We talked about the ceasefire, and you just told us 5 that a member -- number of leaders or some of the leaders of 6 the Islamic Group