8999 4bgesat1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 16, 2004 8 10:00 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9001 4bgesat1 1 (Page 9000 sealed by order of the Court) 2 (At the side bar) 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just while we're standing 4 here, we're having some technical difficulties with the audio 5 and things that we'd like to try to get resolved before we 6 start with the jury. Probably someone's coming over to look at 7 the audio and see what the problem is. 8 THE COURT: OK. Fine. Just let Mr. Fletcher know and 9 I'll come out then. 10 Did you resolve your other issues? I got nothing 11 on -- 12 MR. RUHNKE: Neither one of us submitted anything 13 additional, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Right. OK. 15 MS. BAKER: But we obviously have not reached 16 agreement, so the Court needs to rule. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Yes. 18 THE COURT: I can't rule -- based upon what I've 19 heard, and under the rule, the parties haven't given me the 20 underlying documents. Based upon what the parties have told 21 me, as I expressed from the rule yesterday, this would -- a 22 summary of the telephone conversations is not such that the 23 contents of the recordings could not be conveniently examined 24 in court. Indeed, the transcripts and excerpts from 25 transcripts would go in. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9002 4bgesat1 1 Nor do I think it would be helpful to the jury, in 2 view of the nuances in all of the transcripts that I've seen, 3 to try to summarize them. 4 I was going to suggest to the parties that it would 5 appear to me -- and this goes beyond what the parties have 6 presented to me -- that if the parties are concerned over the 7 sequence or participation of various people in the 8 conversations or the chronology of the conversations, that 9 could be presented in what would probably be an unobjectionable 10 chart, which simply lists the date of the call, the 11 participants in the call, which would allow the parties to have 12 a structure of the 45 calls. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, what I'll do, then, is I'll 14 prepare that chart, or I'll try to prepare a chart as you're 15 suggesting. And I'll actually include not just the 45 calls, 16 but all 63 calls that were intercepted, because the objection 17 to this summary of -- summaries of the contents was, well, if 18 Mr. Yousry wasn't a participant, a summary wasn't really 19 appropriate. I understood that, and we agreed with that 20 objection. 21 So I will attempt to endeavor to draft a chart such as 22 you suggest in the hopes that it's useful. 23 THE COURT: OK. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, did you want to seal the first 25 portion of this regarding the juror? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9003 4bgesat1 1 THE COURT: Yes. I mean, I threw this out as a 2 suggestion without listening to the parties as to whether it 3 was -- 4 MS. BAKER: The government has no objection to a chart 5 like the one your Honor just proposed. Our objection was to 6 summarizing the content of the calls. 7 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor, thank you. 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 (Recess) 10 (Pages 9004 to 9009 sealed by order of the Court) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9010 4bgesat1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Is the technical issue resolved? 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my understanding is the issue 4 is resolved in that the government is going to use its 5 equipment to play the audios for the defense. 6 MR. RUHNKE: I'm just waiting for my paralegal to go 7 downstairs to get the exhibits that she needs. 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 9 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm just waiting for 10 Ms Torres, our paralegal, to come back from downstairs with the 11 exhibits that we need. 12 What -- just so your Honor understands this process, I 13 think it's appropriate to explain what it is. We disclosed to 14 the government the transcripts that we wish to offer and the 15 excerpts in which to play of the personal calls to Mr. Yousry. 16 The government made requests both on issues of interpretation 17 and on issues of completeness regarding those calls. The same 18 thing was true with regard to translation on the prison calls. 19 We've attempted to accommodate the government on each request 20 that they've made. The questions were coming in as recently as 21 Sunday afternoon. 22 Now the climate is not ripe for asking for a day or 23 two off to get all these issues resolved, so we have to take a 24 half hour or so right now to try to get in shape to get going. 25 We haven't had a chance to scan final versions yet. We would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9011 4bgesat1 1 have liked to have had that opportunity, but we're going to go 2 ahead and make our presentation. 3 But just, for example, the government asked a certain 4 change to be made in a call we were going to play. For some 5 reason all the changes didn't get made. We made them last 6 night. And no one's asking for a three-week adjournment to 7 deal with these issues; maybe another ten minutes, we'll be 8 ready to go. And I apologize for the delay. 9 THE COURT: Never necessary to apologize. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I know. 11 THE COURT: So we're still ten minutes away from 12 starting? 13 MR. RUHNKE: I think so, your Honor, yes. 14 THE COURT: OK, just let Mr. Fletcher know. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 16 (Recess) 17 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 18 (Continued on next page) 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9012 4bgesat1 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good 3 to see you all as always. 4 All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 6 are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 8 THE COURT: All right. And, Mr. Ruhnke, you may 9 examine. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 11 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed 11 12 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) 13 BY MR. RUHNKE: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, try to keep your voice up. Try to keep that 15 microphone -- 16 A. I promise, I will. 17 Q. -- right close to you. 18 When we left off yesterday afternoon, we were 19 discussing your employment history. We had discussed the -- 20 what kind of jobs you had as a student. As you progressed 21 through your employment career, what other kinds of jobs have 22 you had? 23 A. I worked for UCP -- 24 Q. Stop for just a moment, please. What is UCP? 25 A. It's United Cerebral Palsy. It's an organization that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9013 4bgesat1 Yousry - direct 1 provides services for physically challenged people. 2 Q. And for how many years did you work for the United Cerebral 3 Palsy? 4 A. I believe about five years. 5 Q. And what was your position, what did you do? 6 A. I was working as a job coach. My job was to train disabled 7 people to do their job in the community. For instance, if they 8 are hired by a company, my job was to make sure that you would 9 be able to provide the services that the company needed, 10 despite their disability. So my job was basically to try to 11 find a way for them to be integrated into the community. 12 Q. And what other kinds of jobs did you have during your adult 13 years? 14 A. I also worked for Young Adult Institute. 15 Q. Stop right there. What was -- what is the Young Adult 16 Institute? 17 A. It's also an organization that provides services for people 18 with mental disabilities. 19 Q. And for how many years did you work for the Young Adult 20 Institute? 21 A. It was a part-time job, weekend job. And I think it was 22 six or seven years. 23 Q. And what were your responsibilities, what did you do? 24 A. Basically I was working as a counselor, residential 25 counselor. And I was doing a lot of the creation and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9014 4bgesat1 Yousry - direct 1 activities with the clients and -- 2 Q. I didn't hear what you just said. 3 A. I said recreational counselor, basically. I was working 4 with clients over the weekend. 5 Q. And where is Young Adult Institute located? 6 A. It's all over the United States. 7 Q. How about UCP, United Cerebral Palsy? 8 A. As well. It's a national organization, yes. 9 Q. Did you also have jobs or experiences teaching in the 10 academic field? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Where was your first teaching job? 13 A. At NYU. 14 Q. And at NYU, did you teach as a graduate student? Were you 15 on the faculty? What was the technical position? 16 A. I was teaching for undergrad. Basically I was -- taught as 17 a TA, which was a fellowship from NYU. They give you a 18 scholarship and they pay your way through college, your 19 graduate study. 20 Q. "TA" meaning teaching assistant? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you teach at other institutions besides NYU? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. Where else did you teach? 25 A. York College, Long Island University. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9015 4bgesat1 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And staying with York College for a moment, what sorts of 2 courses did you teach at York College? 3 A. Mainly two classes, two core classes, cultural diversity 4 and culture of the Middle East, history of modern Middle East. 5 Q. And what -- your course in cultural diversity, in very 6 broad terms, what did that cover? 7 A. It covered basically an idea that cultures has different 8 logic and people do things differently. And the fact of 9 cultures are different doesn't mean that one culture is 10 superior to the other. So it basically promotes the idea that 11 people do things differently and there's no superior idea or 12 less superior idea. 13 Q. What was the other course you taught at York College 14 primarily? 15 A. History of the Middle East. 16 Q. And that's self-descriptive? 17 A. Yeah. It's modern Middle East, basically. It's not 18 ancient history. 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9016 4BG5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. When you talk about the modern Middle East, what begins 3 your history of the modern Middle East? 4 A. There is a dispute over there. Some people start with the 5 1800s. Others start after World War I. Some people start 6 after World War II, but I guess I would start from World War I. 7 Q. So, the history of the Middle East from World War I 8 forward? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. That would include current events? 11 A. Yes. Of course it does. 12 Q. And those courses, what kind of materials did you present 13 to students? What kind of materials did you use for classroom 14 discussions? 15 A. Basically we used a couple of textbooks, articles, current 16 articles. Journals. TV broadcasts. 17 Q. In connection with those courses, would you gather 18 information from the media and newspaper articles? 19 A. Yes, sure. 20 Q. Did you also begin or at what point in your career did you 21 begin to work as an interpreter or translator? What was your 22 first experience, as you recall? 23 A. I believe it was in the '80s. I did a couple of 24 translations for an agency working for the New York Times. I 25 did some translation for an agency working with the Dinkins SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9017 4BG5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 administration I believe. 2 Q. You are going to have to keep your voice up. You have a 3 very soft voice. 4 A. In the '80s I did some translation for an agency working 5 for the New York Times. I also did some translation for an 6 agency who was working for the Dinkins administration. 7 Also, I did work for -- 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry, for the. 9 THE WITNESS: For the Dinkins' administration. 10 Q. You are referring to the former mayor of New York? 11 THE COURT: Again, please keep your voice up. 12 A. Yes. 13 Also, I work with Egyptian theatrical group that 14 toured the United States for about three or four months, so I 15 did the financial statements, interpretation for them with the 16 unions in the United States. Things of this nature. 17 Q. Taking your career through even to the present as an 18 interpreter or translator, have you done interpretation now for 19 news organizations? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. What news organizations have you worked for? 22 A. Mainly ABC. I did work for 60 minutes and CBS. I did work 23 for Fox. I did some work for CNN. 24 World News Tonight, Peter Jennings' program. 25 Q. Did there come a time when you found a job at a translation SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9018 4BG5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 agency or with a translation agency? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And approximately when was that? 4 A. That goes back to 1993. 5 Q. And what was the translation agency? 6 A. My first -- the translation agency was Hess translation. 7 Q. H-E-S-S? 8 A. H-E-S-S, yes. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to direct your attention to February 10 24 of 1993, what were you doing at about that period of time? 11 A. I was a grad student at NYU. I was also working at the 12 Young Adult Institute. Also, I was working at UCPS. 13 Q. Do you recall on that day, on or about February 24, 1993, 14 participating in a radio program that happened to involve 15 Sheikh Rahman? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And were you interviewed on that radio program? 18 A. Yes, I was. 19 Q. And have you listened to a tape of that radio program? 20 A. I did. 21 Q. And based on your review of the tape, does it fairly 22 capture what was said during that radio interview? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time we would like to 25 play Defense Exhibit MY-1900A, which is an English language SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9019 4BG5SAT2 Yousry - direct 1 tape, and display for the jury 1900, which is a transcript. 2 And obviously with the understanding that the transcript is 3 offered only as an aid to the jury to follow in the interview. 4 And we are ready to do that now. 5 THE COURT: You are offering 1900A in evidence, right? 6 MR. RUHNKE: 1900A in evidence and 1900 as an aid to 7 the jury to follow the English language conversation. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I might want a question or two 10 of voir dire, but we don't have the latest few lines of 11 transcript up on our screen and I would like to see that first 12 to determine. 13 THE COURT: Okay, take a moment. 14 MS. BAKER: May I have a question or two of voir dire, 15 first? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 (Continued next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9020 4bgesat3 Yousry - direct 1 VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION 2 BY MS. BAKER: 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, the radio broadcast that you participated in, 4 do you remember the date on which you participated in that 5 program? 6 A. I believe it was in February of 1993. 7 Q. Do you know the specific date? 8 A. I believe it was the last week of February, maybe 23, 24. 9 MS. BAKER: Thank you. No objection. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm sorry. With the Court's 12 permission we'd like to display the transcript and play the 13 audio. 14 THE COURT: OK. One moment. Defendants' 15 Exhibit MY1900A is admitted in evidence. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit MY1900A received in evidence) 17 THE COURT: And, ladies and gentlemen, with respect 18 to -- I've already given you instructions that a transcript 19 is -- a recording in English is an aid to your listening to the 20 recording, and you should apply my instruction, my former 21 instruction here. 22 It is the tape that's evidence. The transcript is 23 admitted only as an aid to your listening to the recording. 24 You should listen carefully to the recording. If you think you 25 hear something different on the recording, of course it's what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9021 4bgesat3 Yousry - direct 1 you hear on the recording, which is important because the -- it 2 is the recording that's evidence and the transcript is admitted 3 as an aid. The tape is not admitted for the truth of any of 4 its contents. Mr. Yousry's statements are admitted only as 5 evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of mind, and any 6 statements by others are admitted only for their effect, if 7 any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 8 And finally, as I have told you, with respect to this 9 document, knowledge of any alleged human rights abuses in Egypt 10 are not a defense to the charges in this case. 11 All right. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we ask the jurors put 13 their earphones on. 14 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, put your 15 earphones on, dot facing forward, turn them on. 16 (Exhibit 1900A was played for the jurors) 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9022 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, apparently the tape ends at 2 that point so we will only be missing a couple lines from the 3 transcript. 4 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, please take off your 5 headsets. 6 BY MR. RUHNKE: 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, you heard your words just played in court from 8 February of 1993. 9 In February of 1993, what did you understand to be the 10 goals of Sheikh Rahman and his Islamic Group? 11 A. The ultimate goal for Sheikh Rahman and the Islamic group 12 did not change over the years. They basically want to 13 establish a Muslim state in Egypt where they can rule according 14 to her own interpretation of the Muslim law. 15 Q. And, in 1993, did you favor or oppose that? 16 A. I opposed that -- 17 Q. Have you ever changed -- 18 A. -- and I still do. 19 Q. Have you ever changed your mind about that? 20 A. No. Never did. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, would this be a good time to 22 take a morning break? 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 25 Please, remember my continuing instruction. Please, don't talk SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9023 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 about this case at all. Always remember to keep an open mind 2 until you have heard all of the evidence and I have instructed 3 you on the law. 4 All rise, please. 5 (Jury not present) 6 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 7 (Witness steps down) 8 THE COURT: See you shortly. 9 (Recess) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 11 (Jury present) 12 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 13 (Witness resumes stand) 14 Mr. Fletcher? 15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 16 are still under oath. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke, you may proceed. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE: 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, in the interview we just listened to, you 21 described the potential for Egypt of an Islamic government as 22 advocated by Sheikh Rahman and you used the term that that 23 would be regressive. 24 What, in your view, makes the idea of an Islamic 25 government in a country such as Egypt regressive? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9024 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. It would be a setback for human rights, in general. In 2 particular women and non-Muslims in Egypt, equal rights. And 3 that is, obviously to me, is something that I would never 4 endorse. 5 Q. In terms of women, if a Muslim state, Islamic state were to 6 be installed in a country such as Egypt, what impact would it 7 have on women? 8 A. It would have drastic impacts on womens life -- in public, 9 in private. They're not going to be allowed to go out to 10 certain places without chaperones. In the Sheikh's mind women 11 should only work in fields related to other women. And that is 12 something that I think is extremely, extremely regressive and 13 is oppressive. 14 Q. What about nonMuslims. You made reference to nonMuslims? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. What effect would an Islamic state have on, for example, 17 the Christian population of Egypt? 18 A. Well Egypt has close to 12 or 14 million COPTS living. 19 Q. Spell Copts for us? 20 A. C-O-P-T-S. 21 Q. What is that an abbreviation for? 22 A. It's Christian -- the form of Christianity they practice. 23 Q. Is the word Coptic? 24 A. Yes. Yes, the word is Coptic. 25 Q. You started to say that Egypt has millions of Coptic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9025 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Christians, what impact would that have under Islamic rule? 2 A. It is bad enough for them now. They do not enjoy equal 3 rights under the Mubarak regime however it would be worse under 4 that regime, in my view. They would not be allowed to advance 5 on the jobs beyond certain levels because, according to Omar 6 Abdel Rahman's ideals, Muslims should not be ruled by 7 nonMuslims. 8 So if you reach the level of general manager in a 9 company, this would probably be Muslims only, not nonMuslims as 10 well. 11 I do work with a lot of nonMuslims in our neighborhood 12 and I believe they are as much Egyptians as anybody else and 13 you have the same rights. 14 Q. And in terms of your own views on the use of violence to 15 support political change, you mentioned yesterday, you 16 testified yesterday that you had spent many years, eight years 17 approximately in the Egyptian Army, is that correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. During your tenure in the Egyptian Army, were -- did you 20 ever come under hostile fire? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you see people killed around you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does that -- what lesson did you take from that, in your 25 own personal philosophy, on the use of violence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9026 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, it confirmed what I believed, that violence brings 2 nothing back but violence. 3 Q. And are you aware of the fact that Omar Abdel Rahman has 4 advocated terroristic violence? 5 A. Yes, I am. 6 Q. Do you support his views or anyone's views in that 7 position? 8 A. No, I do not. 9 Q. Now, I would like to take you and fast forward this 10 discussion a little bit to June 2000. And we will fill in the 11 blanks a little later on but I want to take you to June 2000. 12 In setting forth the events between May 19 and June 13 23, 2000, is there a demonstrative exhibit that we have 14 prepared that would help explain your testimony? 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with no objection of the 17 government, I don't think, I would like to display for the jury 18 what is marked as MY-50. 19 THE COURT: All right. MY-50 is received as a 20 demonstrative aid to the witness' testimony. 21 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-50 received in evidence) 22 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, displaying on the screen -- or we will in a 24 second what is MY-50, Exhibit 5-0, a chronology, basically, of 25 events from May 19th to June 23, 2000; do you recall that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9027 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 period of time, those four or five weeks? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. What occurred on May 19 and May 20th, 2000? 4 A. I accompanied Ms. Stewart on a legal trip to visit Sheikh 5 Omar Abdel Rahman. 6 Q. And during that trip was there a discussion of the Sheikh's 7 view of the peace initiative or cease-fire? 8 A. Yes, there was. 9 Q. In what form did you copy down the Sheikh's position on the 10 cease-fire? 11 A. I believe I wrote it down on a separate piece of paper. 12 Q. Did you write it down in your notebooks? 13 A. It was a separate piece of paper in my notebook. 14 Q. Do you recall seeing the video actually of your taking the 15 dictation on that position from the Sheikh? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. And what do you recall seeing on the video? 18 A. I was writing on a separate piece of paper. 19 Q. And what took place, to your knowledge, on June 13, 2000? 20 A. I believe Ms. Stewart made a press release. 21 Q. Spoke with a Reuters reporter? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What was the topic of her discussion with the Reuters 24 reporter? 25 A. Mainly it was concerning the peace initiative. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9028 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Had you seen or been with Ms. Stewart between May 20th and 2 June 13 some? 3 A. No, I don't think we ever met. 4 Q. And did you participate in the June 13 interview with 5 Reuters? 6 A. No, I did not. 7 Q. Were you physically present for that interview? 8 A. No, I was not. 9 Q. And, on June 14, do you recall that stories began to appear 10 in the Arabic press as a result of Ms. Stewart's interview? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And did you also note or have you also seen evidence that 13 there were some reports in the Arabic press and on the internet 14 that discredited or -- discredited the information that was put 15 out? 16 A. Yes, I do remember that. 17 Q. And that Mr. Sattar was accused of being an American agent 18 or CIA agent? Do you remember that? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. Do you recall that you had a conversation with Mr. Sattar 21 the very next day on June 15? 22 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 25 Q. What do you recall happening on June 15? And if you need SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9029 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 to refer to the chronology to refresh your recollection, 2 please, do so. 3 A. I recall that I had a phone conversation with Mr. Sattar. 4 Q. In very general terms, a sentence or two, what did you 5 advise Mr. Sattar of on June 15? 6 A. I basically was telling him to just quit working on this 7 case, it is too much trouble for him. He should pay attention 8 to his wife, his family, and there is more stuff and more 9 important things in life than working on this case. 10 Q. And just to finish the conversations, do you recall that on 11 June -- that what occurred on June 20? 12 A. I believe there was a legal call placed in the office of -- 13 I'm not sure if it took place in Ms. Stewart's office or in 14 Mr. Clark's office, but I believe there was a legal call placed 15 from prison and Ms. Stewart was there. 16 Q. And did you participate in that call as the interpreter? 17 A. Yes, I did. I did. 18 Q. What, regarding the cease-fire, the initiative, the press 19 reports that had appeared, what did that prompt the Sheikh to 20 do during that legal call, prison call? 21 A. The client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, asked for 22 Ms. Stewart's permission to dictate. 23 THE COURT: Please -- I'm sorry, let me just stop you 24 for a moment. 25 Please, please keep your voice up. And you can start SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9030 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 the answer again or -- 2 Q. What took place during that June 20 phone call regarding 3 the publicity that had been generated about the earlier 4 statements to Reuters? 5 A. Well, Ms. Stewart approved me to read several news articles 6 to the client, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, and he asked her 7 permission to dictate some points in his view that would help 8 clarify, you know, what happened. 9 And she gave the permission, he dictated viewpoints 10 and I translated them to Ms. Stewart. 11 Q. And now, directing your attention to June 23. Before I ask 12 you about that date, other than the subject of the 13 conversation, what is significant about the June 23, 2000 14 prison call? 15 A. I'm not sure I understand. 16 Q. Let me phrase it this way. 17 To your knowledge, when did the interceptions, 18 telephonic interceptions of the prison calls first begin? 19 A. I believe they started June 23 of 2000. 20 Q. To your knowledge, June 23 was the very first time that a 21 prison call was actually intercepted and tape recorded? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Now, during that call was there a discussion of some issue 24 again regarding the cease-fire -- 25 A. Yes -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9031 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 Q. -- initiative? 2 A. -- there was. 3 Q. And, generally, what went on during that conversation? 4 A. Generally also we began the call, as I recall it, 5 Ms. Stewart gave me permission to read the articles written in 6 the papers. The Sheikh commented on that. He was somewhat 7 surprised because some words he dictated were not there. Other 8 words that he did not dictate were included in the press 9 release. 10 And that's generally what happened, I believe. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point I would like to 12 read and display to the jury two stipulations, if I may? 13 THE COURT: All right. What are they marked as? 14 MR. RUHNKE: First one is marked MY-Stip-3. 15 THE COURT: And the second one? 16 MR. RUHNKE: MY-Stip 4. 17 THE COURT: MY-Stip 3 and MY-Stip 4 received in 18 evidence. 19 (Defendant's Exhibits MY-Stip 3 and MY-Stip 4 received 20 in evidence) 21 MR. RUHNKE: I will read MY-Stip 3 which is displayed 22 on the screen. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. RUHNKE: The parties hereby stipulate and agree to 25 the following: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9032 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 If called as witnesses at trial, qualified expert 2 Arabic-to-English translators, retained by the defense from a 3 private translation agency, would testify that, in their 4 opinions, the English translations in the MY-1000CT series (the 5 notebooks), the MY-1200 series (prison calls), the MY-1700 6 series (intercepts on Mr. Yousry's home telephone), and various 7 news articles identified as MY-516, 519, 520 and 521 and 522, 8 are true and accurate translations from Arabic into English of 9 the underlying Arabic documents and conversations. 10 And the stipulation is signed by the parties on page 11 1. And again, displaying page 2 to show the jury the date, New 12 York, New York, November 15, 2004. 13 I would also like to read and display MY-Stip 4. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: MY-Stip- 4 reads, as follows: 16 The parties hereby stipulate and agree to the 17 following: 18 The excerpts of the conversations contained in the 19 MY-1700 series (interceptions of Mr. Yousry's home telephone) 20 are the result of negotiations among the parties and contain 21 those excerpts of the conversations that each side believes are 22 relevant to the issues presented in this case. 23 That is agreed to and stipulated by all the parties. 24 Now, your Honor, with the Court's permission, I would 25 like to have read to the jury MY-1712X, which is an excerpt of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9033 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 a telephone call between Mr. Sattar and Mr. Yousry dated June 2 20 -- I'm sorry, June 15, 2000. 3 I'm going to ask Mr. Yousry to pick up 1712X and to 4 read his part. 5 I would ask Mr. Stern to read the part of Ahmed Abdel 6 Sattar. 7 I will display the conversation on the Elmo as it 8 proceeds. 9 THE COURT: Well, all right. 10 Hold on one moment before you put it up. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: You are offering MY-1712X? 13 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a moment to confer 15 with counsel? 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 (Counsel conferring) 18 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we have a -- we need to 19 resolve an issue -- I'm sorry -- outside of the jury's 20 presence. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Why don't we take five minutes, 22 ladies and gentlemen. Please remember my continuing 23 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 24 All rise, please. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9034 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry, you may step down. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the issue is this, and this 6 is something maybe I should have alerted the government to 7 ahead of time. It is my responsibility for not having 8 discussed it with the government, is that the government 9 objects to Mr. Yousry reading his own part. 10 MS. BAKER: No. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Let's hear the objection. 12 MS. BAKER: The objection is that we object to 13 Mr. Stern reading Mr. Sattar's part because in the government's 14 case when we sought to read the defendants' parts ourselves, 15 the defense objected and the Court ruled that no members of the 16 government trial team could do that. 17 THE COURT: Yes. Yes. 18 The problem in response to the defense objection was I 19 didn't want any confusion with respect to the defendants on 20 trial by having their parts read by active members of the trial 21 teams, people who would otherwise have speaking roles before 22 the jury and that was the confusion I wanted to eliminate. 23 MR. RUHNKE: All right. 24 THE COURT: And that would apply also to defense 25 attorneys reading other defendant's parts. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9035 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. We can resolve 2 that problem, I think. I have a paralegal read the part. 3 There is no objection, I gather, to Mr. Yousry reading 4 his part? 5 THE COURT: No. 6 MS. BAKER: No. 7 THE COURT: There can't be any confusion there. 8 And I allowed Ms. Stewart to read things that she had 9 previously said also. 10 And let me just ask one other question. I was going 11 to -- the limiting instruction that I was asked to give by, for 12 MY-1701 through 1730, are the individual exhibits going to be 13 offered individually? 14 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Okay. I will give the instruction. 16 MR. RUHNKE: Or, if your Honor would like, it might 17 make more sense to simply say for all exhibits in the 1700 18 series they're offered solely on the issue of Mr. Yousry's 19 knowledge and state of mind. Whatever the government prefers. 20 I'm not going to seek a limiting instruction every 21 time it is introduced. 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't think the instruction 23 is very lengthy and so I don't -- I also don't think it has to 24 be given every single time; for example, if calls are read 25 back-to-back. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9036 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 But if some period of time goes by between the 2 presentation of one call and the presentation of another, we 3 would ask that the jury be reminded. 4 THE COURT: Fine. I will tell them that for the 5 exhibits which are introduced between and including MY-1701 6 through 1730, here is the instruction and you are to apply it, 7 whether I give it again or not. 8 And if there is a pause and I am asked to give it, I 9 will give it. 10 MR. TIGAR: Is that instruction, your Honor, because I 11 don't have it in front of me, include the human rights part? 12 Or is it just hearsay? 13 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry's statements are not admitted 14 for their truth but only as evidence of his knowledge, intent 15 and state of mind. Statements are not admitted -- are not 16 admitted for their truth but only for their effect depending on 17 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. 18 If Mr. Yousry would take the stand. 19 MR. TIGAR: I just want to confer with Mr. Ruhnke, if 20 I may, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9037 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission 4 and the alteration of the cast members, we would like 5 Mr. Yousry to read his part, and the part of Mr. Sattar will be 6 read by paralegal Jose Fanjum. And I will display the 7 transcript, if that's all right with the Court. 8 THE COURT: Hold on. I take it that the, is this an 9 English call or? 10 MR. RUHNKE: This is an Arabic call, your Honor, 11 that's been translated pursuant to the stipulation which was 12 just read. 13 THE COURT: All right. So the transcript itself is 14 evidence, ladies and gentlemen, and MY-1712X is received in 15 evidence. And I have already explained to you that a 16 transcript of a recording which is in Arabic, the transcript is 17 itself evidence because it reflects the testimony of the 18 translators that the recording says what is reflected in the 19 transcript. 20 And this exhibit, and indeed the exhibits which will 21 come in within the series MY-1701 through MY 1730, these are 22 transcripts, are all subject to a limiting instruction, namely, 23 that Mr. Yousry's statements are not admitted for their truth 24 but only as evidence of his knowledge, intent or state of mind. 25 And the statements by any others that are contained in these SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9038 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 exhibits are not admitted for their truth but only for their 2 effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of 3 mind. 4 All right? And with that, then 1712X is received in 5 evidence and you can display it. 6 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-1712X received in evidence) 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, for the record, this is a 8 telephone call that occurred on June 15, 2000, starting at 9 32:13 seconds. 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Excuse me, counsel. Let me remind 11 Mr. Yousry, he is still under oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 13 MR. RUHNKE: May we proceed? 14 THE COURT: Yes. I just wasn't -- would you just 15 repeat that because I'm not sure whether the, there was any 16 interruption. 17 MR. RUHNKE: The call is a call that took place on 18 June 15, 2000, commencing at 21:32:13, which is 9:32 in the 19 evening. And it begins [dialing] [ringing] [TV in the 20 background]. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 (Whereupon, Defense Exhibit MY-1712X, in evidence, was 23 displayed and read for the jury) 24 MS. BAKER: Objection. I'm sorry to interrupt, your 25 Honor, but I need to speak with Mr. Ruhnke. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9039 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, can we interrupt for a bit? 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Sorry. 5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a 6 break. Let's take five minutes. Please, don't talk about the 7 case and keep an open mind. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9040 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the objection is apparently 3 this is not the transcript that we had agreed upon. We thought 4 it was the transcript we agreed upon. We gave it to the 5 government this morning. 6 THE COURT: Okay. I will take five minutes. Please, 7 see if you can't make sure that the correct transcript is 8 there. 9 Okay. 10 (Recess) 11 THE COURT: All right. Please be seated, all. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, as you heard a little while 13 ago, the parties had entered into a stipulation in lieu of 14 translator testimony regarding the Yousry exhibits. That 15 stipulation was contingent on certain corrections or changes 16 being made to two of these translated telephone calls and those 17 translations were requested by the government, I don't know, 18 maybe about 10 days ago with the back and forth on translation 19 changes and excerpting and Rule 106. 20 Somehow, apparently, the translation changes were not 21 made, which became apparent as the transcript was being read. 22 And so, before we can continue, we need to find a way to get 23 the translation changes reflected in the transcript and then 24 once they are, the government would ask -- because there were a 25 couple of changes even earlier but they weren't so noticeable SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9041 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 and so I didn't realize it -- but we would ask that the 2 transcript be presented again once it is corrected based on the 3 agreement between the parties. 4 MR. RUHNKE: And your Honor, apparently the government 5 is going to bring me a copy of the requested changes and we 6 will make them -- we will hand write them in, we will do them 7 right now. Every change they wanted we thought had been done. 8 We are kind of working on the fly a little bit. I did give the 9 government this exhibit this morning and -- 10 THE COURT: Could I ask if we, it is a little early to 11 break for lunch, but if we were to break until 1:30 now. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Rather than having a transcript with 14 handwritten changes, would it be possible to essentially -- 15 read the full transcript and then say this is the corrected 16 copy of the transcript? It might look better than handwritten 17 changes. 18 MR. RUHNKE: That would be a good resolution, your 19 Honor. I appreciate that. 20 THE COURT: All right. I can either call the jury in 21 and say we will break now for lunch or have Mr. Fletcher go in 22 and tell the jury that we are going to break for lunch and 23 resume at 1:30. 24 MR. RUHNKE: My preference would be to have 25 Mr. Fletcher inform the jury that we are breaking for lunch to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9042 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 resolve an issue, or just to say we're breaking for lunch. 2 THE COURT: We will say we are breaking for lunch 3 until 1:30. That will give the jurors ample time for lunch. 4 If the lunch is late they may end up having to take a little 5 more time, but we will attempt to do it by 1:30. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: We will tell the jury we are going to 8 break for lunch until 1:30. 9 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher will go and tell the jury we 11 are breaking for lunch and so, we are. 12 (Luncheon recess) 13 (Continued next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9043 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 1:40 p.m. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9044 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 (At side bar) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, all. 3 COUNSEL: Good afternoon. 4 THE COURT: I don't want to interrupt anything that's 5 going on in connection with preparing the transcript. I just 6 wanted to talk about an issue of schedule. 7 MR. BARKOW: I don't think any of the people here are 8 working on the transcript. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Where do things stand with that? 10 MR. STERN: I think we are within minutes of having it 11 done. 12 THE COURT: At the end of the day I would tell the 13 jurors that, in response to what they've told Mr. Fletcher, 14 Fridays continue to be a conflict so I will not schedule items 15 on Friday. 16 It appears that jurors do not have commitments on 17 December 29th and December 30th and they should therefore keep 18 those dates open. 19 Also, with respect to January, except for Fridays, 20 there are no conflicts so please don't make any other 21 commitments in January. 22 On another scheduling issue, not for the jury, just 23 for you all, I had said I would, in order to move things along, 24 I would not use up jury time with the charge conference so I 25 said I would try to get you the charge on Monday and have the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9045 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 charge conference Wednesday afternoon, that's next Wednesday, 2 November 24th. 3 The jury is going to go, leave at 12:00, so I would do 4 it at 2:00. And then I said that if we had to, if we had to 5 continue it we could do it on Friday, the day after 6 Thanksgiving. I don't see a reason to do it the day after 7 Thanksgiving at the moment, in view of the fact that the 8 parties tell me that they're not going to be done until the 9 week of December the 6th. 10 MR. FALLICK: Well, I was optimistic this morning, 11 maybe that we -- I do believe we will finish sometime during 12 that week. Today I thought we would move quicker than we have. 13 THE COURT: Well, the only point I was going to make 14 is that to the extent that I had other things to talk to you 15 about in terms of the charge, I didn't have to do it on Friday, 16 November the 26th, I could do it the evenings of the week of 17 December -- November 29th and Friday, December 3rd, which would 18 allow me to finish without any jury time and before any 19 summations. 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I ask the Court then, to 21 prevail on the Court not to sit that Wednesday afternoon before 22 Thanksgiving? That is, if one is planing to have the 23 Thanksgiving dinner or whatever, on Thanksgiving day, if you 24 start in the morning Thursday, you wind up in the parking lot 25 called the Garden State Parkway. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9046 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if I might raise a related 2 point as far as the proposed jury charge. I understand from 3 what the Court has said that the Court is working on a version 4 to give to the parties. Obviously there had been request to 5 charge submitted earlier in the case and objections but 6 developments during the trial make it necessary, at least for 7 the government, to make some additional requests as far as 8 instructions about what are and are not defenses. 9 I am the member of the government trial team primarily 10 responsible for doing that. I have done some work on it but at 11 the moment am focusing on Mr. Yousry because I am also the 12 member of the government trial team who will be cross-examining 13 him. 14 I guess I am asking the Court permission to have until 15 Monday to submit some additional requests instead of having the 16 Court come out -- or I guess the Court could go ahead and come 17 out with its own proposed request to charge on the matters that 18 have been raised up to this point. But then I guess I just 19 want the Court and defense counsel to know that there will be 20 some additional requests coming from the government and I hope 21 to have those by Monday. 22 THE COURT: Well, defendants? 23 MR. TIGAR: That being the case, your Honor, it is 24 true it's changed briefing on some of these issues. That 25 briefing has been complex and difficult. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9047 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 If the government comes in on Monday with some 2 additional requests to charge, then we would need some time to 3 prepare responses. 4 So, I guess my response is that given this schedule, 5 perhaps it ought to go over to a time when that briefing is 6 concluded. 7 MS. BAKER: Just to be clear, I'm not seeking to 8 revisit, for example, like the elements of the offenses, things 9 we've already submitted. It is primarily focused on things 10 that, in the government's view, are not defenses and what the 11 jury needs to be told about that and some of those issues have 12 been aired in various forms already. 13 THE COURT: I don't expect that the additional request 14 to charge will be very lengthy. 15 MS. BAKER: No. 16 MR. TIGAR: We also will have some additional request 17 to charge, your Honor, based on the evidence in the case which 18 isn't concluded yet. 19 THE COURT: Oh, but I want to have the charge 20 conference -- yes, you can make requests right up until the end 21 but I want to have the charge conference done without using 22 jury time so that when the evidence is complete, the parties 23 are ready to sum up. 24 And so, if there are additional requests to charge, I 25 expect to have them submitted and any objections and ruled on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9048 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 in time for summations so we don't use jury time. 2 And one of the reasons that I asked for a defense 3 response was not only for when the defendants intended to 4 submit objections to what the government was going to do, but 5 if there are additional defense requests I expected that they 6 would be submitted at the same time that the government 7 submitted additional requests. 8 And the only thing I can decide now is you can talk 9 among yourselves but we won't have -- we won't sit on Friday 10 after Thanksgiving and I doubt under that schedule that we will 11 sit the afternoon before Thanksgiving. 12 But, I really want -- I really want to get all of the 13 additional request to charge and the objections so that I can 14 consider them and give you a draft and have it done by the end 15 of the week of the 3rd so that we can accommodate Mr. Fallick. 16 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, there is one other -- 17 MR. PAUL: We're still canvassing, your Honor, as we 18 speak. 19 MR. FALLICK: One additional matter for Mr. Sattar's 20 case, Mr. Morvillo and I have worked out all of our issues but 21 for the two that we have exchanged letters with the Court -- 22 and we may not reach that point next week -- but we would like 23 to alert the Court that those are the only two remaining issues 24 to be resolved. 25 THE COURT: I can hear you at the end of some day on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9049 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 those issues. You should give me the NBC tapes so that I can 2 review them. 3 MR. FALLICK: We will give a copy at the end of the 4 day and the morning and perhaps at the end of the day after we 5 break Thursday at 2:00. Thursday afternoon you could hear us. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, since I was out of the 9 courtroom I arrived at the side bar after it started. I don't 10 know if anyone has advised the Court of where things stand at 11 the moment. 12 THE COURT: I was told almost any minute and I didn't 13 want to use up this time -- 14 MS. BAKER: When we left our office to come here to be 15 here at 1:30 the revised transcript, which was in the middle of 16 being read, had not been faxed to us. So, as far as I know, 17 what should be happening in a few minutes is that Mr. Ruhnke 18 and other members of his defense team will be arriving here in 19 the courtroom with it but at that point I will still need to 20 proofread it against the government's request for charges. 21 So, even once it arrives here I'm still going to need 22 a chance to proofread it and make sure it is right before it 23 gets presented to the jury. 24 THE COURT: Read quickly. 25 MS. BAKER: I will read as quickly as I can. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9050 4BG5SAT4 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: It's not a very long -- there are only two 2 transcripts which are at issue, as I understand it. 3 MS. BAKER: And at the moment I am only concerned 4 about the one that was in the middle of being presented. 5 Someone else can proofread the other one while things are going 6 on, but the one that was in the middle of being presented is 7 about 18 pages long and I will go through it as quickly as I 8 can when it arrives. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9051 4bgesat5 1 (Recess) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. We're ready to proceed. 4 We reviewed the changes over the lunchtime and made them, and 5 nobody on our team can remember having seen those proposed 6 changes. There's a lot of versions flying around. 7 I would ask that your Honor say something to the jury 8 to the effect that through no one's fault, there was a 9 miscommunication between the parties and leave it at that, so 10 the jury doesn't think we're trying to do something improper. 11 THE COURT: I have no problem saying because of 12 technical problems, through no one's fault, we are going to 13 begin that transcript again. 14 MR. RUHNKE: That's fine, your Honor. But it started 15 off with a government objection to what I was doing. It was 16 just an innocent miscommunication. I mean, we -- and I 17 would -- 18 THE COURT: Is that -- you think "miscommunication" is 19 better than "technical problems"? 20 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor, I do. 21 THE COURT: OK. 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I guess I'm a little -- issues 23 come up relating to exhibits all the time, and there are 24 recesses and the issues get resolved. I don't know that it's 25 appropriate to say anything to the jury other than the matter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9052 4bgesat5 1 has been resolved and the transcript is now going to be 2 presented. It just seems a little funny to bring the jury in 3 to what did or didn't happen, which is not something that 4 ordinarily occurs. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Usually -- 6 MS. BAKER: I don't think the making of an objection 7 is in any way accusatory of the defense. I mean, the jury has 8 sat through a long trial. They've seen that objections get 9 made all the time for all kinds of reasons. And it doesn't 10 mean in any way in the jury's eyes -- as far as we can tell 11 imply any bad faith or misconduct to the jury. It's all a 12 mystery of legal issues that just have to get resolved. 13 THE COURT: I have a fine resolution. 14 MS. BAKER: In fact, I'd be willing for the jury to 15 tell the Court that the objection has been withdrawn, as long 16 as the transcript is being presented again. 17 THE COURT: That's what I was going to say. Very good 18 foresight. 19 What I was going to say is: Ladies and gentlemen, 20 there was a technical problem. It has now been resolved. The 21 objection is withdrawn and the transcript will now be played 22 for you. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. That's a nice 24 compromise. Thank you. 25 THE COURT: All right. Let's bring in the jury. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9053 4bgesat5 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I may just ask a couple of 2 questions to reset the scene. 3 THE COURT: That's fine. I'll make the statement 4 first and then you can ask him the questions. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: But the parties should assure that this 7 doesn't happen again. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: The transcript will now be played for you 10 from the beginning. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Read for you. 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9054 4bgesat5 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 Good to see you all. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, there was a technical problem 5 and that has now been resolved. The objection is withdrawn and 6 the transcript will now be read for you from the beginning. 7 All right, Mr. Ruhnke -- actually, Mr. Yousry is on 8 the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 10 are still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 12 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ruhnke. You may proceed. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, just to briefly reset the scene, the 15 conversation we're about to read, or you're about to read, 16 occurred on June 15, 2000, is that correct? 17 A. That's correct, yes. 18 Q. When you called Mr. Sattar that day, were you aware that 19 there had been negative publicity about him in the press? 20 A. Yes, I was. 21 Q. Before you called him? 22 A. Yes. 23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we'd now like to proceed with 24 the reading of MY1712X. We reoffer it into evidence, and this 25 time we'll just display it on the screen instead of the Elmo. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9055 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 So with the Court's permission, the call begins with dialing -- 2 THE COURT: I've received 1712X in evidence and it's 3 subject to a limiting instruction. And you're to apply that 4 limiting instruction here, ladies and gentlemen. All right. 5 MR. RUHNKE: OK. Mr. Sattar starts the call. 6 (At this point, Government Exhibit 1712X, in evidence, 7 was displayed and read to the jury) 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 BY MR. RUHNKE: 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, in reviewing this call which took place on 11 June 15, 2000, do you understand that you have been charged 12 with being in an ongoing conspiracy with Mr. Sattar at that 13 very moment? 14 A. Yes, I do. 15 Q. If you're in an ongoing conspiracy with Mr. Sattar, why are 16 you trying to talk him out of it? 17 A. I didn't know there was a conspiracy going on. I just 18 wanted Sattar to stop what he's doing working on the case for 19 the Sheikh; take time off, take care of his family and his 20 kids. 21 Q. If there was a conspiracy involving Mr. Sattar, how would 22 that conversation help it? 23 MS. BAKER: Objection. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 A. It wouldn't help. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9056 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. What if he took your advice and didn't work on the case for 2 two years? 3 MS. BAKER: Objection. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. That's even better. I didn't know there was a conspiracy 6 going on. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, we're going to change gears again a little bit 8 and direct you to your -- the circumstances of your actually 9 becoming involved with a legal team for Sheikh Rahman. 10 Can you hear me OK? 11 A. Yes, I can. I'm just having problems seeing you with the 12 lights. I just have to move my chair. If you give me a 13 second. 14 Q. OK. 15 A. Thanks. 16 Q. Now, going back to 1993, which actually was about that same 17 period of the WBAI interview, as you said, you were a graduate 18 student at that time? 19 A. Yes, I was. 20 Q. And how did it come about, where did you hear about the 21 possibility of your becoming involved in the case for the first 22 time? 23 A. A professor at NYU actually approached me and asked me if I 24 have time to do some translation. 25 Q. And what was that translation in connection with? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9057 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. It was in connection to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's case. 2 Q. And did you express interest in taking on the job? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And what happened next? What did you have to do next? 5 A. I contacted the agency in charge. I went over. He gave me 6 a tape to work on. He liked the product and he hired me. 7 Q. What agency was that? 8 A. It's Hess Translations, H-E-S-S. 9 Q. Now, in your initial role in the trial of -- in the case, 10 what was your job for Hess Translations in connection with the 11 criminal prosecution being brought against the Sheikh and the 12 other defendants? 13 A. I believe there were about 13 defendants in the beginning. 14 I was working mainly on hard copies. I was mainly working on 15 documents, tapes. I just translated the tapes in Arabic first, 16 then I translate them into English. Mainly I was working from 17 documents and tapes. 18 Q. Were you working solely for Sheikh Rahman? 19 A. No. 20 Q. For the lawyers working for Sheikh Rahman? 21 A. No, not at the time. 22 Q. And did there come a time as the case was getting ready to 23 go to trial where you were actually asked to interpret for 24 Sheikh Rahman? 25 A. Yes, I was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9058 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And just so -- while we're thinking about it, during the 2 trial itself, how was the translation of what was taking place 3 in English transmitted to the defendants, many of whom -- let 4 me ask a foundation question. I'm sorry. 5 The defendants in the Rahman trial, the 15 people or 6 so that you named, how many of them spoke fluent English? 7 A. If I'm not mistaken, I think probably three. 8 Q. And what language did the other defendants speak? 9 A. They only spoke Arabic. 10 Q. And how was the proceedings at the trial interpreted from 11 English into Arabic for those defendants? What happened? 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. Lack of foundation. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Q. All right. Was the trial -- 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 Q. -- conducted in English without the defendants 17 understanding what was going on? 18 A. No, it wasn't. 19 Q. So was it necessary to then interpret the English into 20 Arabic so the defendants could understand what was going on? 21 A. Yes, it was. 22 Q. How was that done? 23 MS. BAKER: Objection. Lack of foundation for his 24 knowledge. 25 THE COURT: Sustained. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9059 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Were you able to observe how that was done through being 2 present at the trial from time to time? 3 A. Yes, I was. 4 Q. And how was that done? 5 A. There was a glass booth actually in the courthouse and it 6 was -- 7 Q. Courthouse or -- 8 A. Courtroom, I'm sorry. It was on the third floor upstairs. 9 It goes all the way to the left side, your left side, and there 10 were two interpreters sitting there. Each used to interpret 11 for about 15 or 20 minutes, and each defendant had an ear piece 12 and they were all connected with the exception of the Sheikh. 13 The Sheikh had a specific team of translators. There were two 14 interpreters working with him. So they used to sit between him 15 and his lawyers. 16 Q. Did you serve that role for any of the defendants at the 17 trial? 18 A. No, I did not. 19 Q. But did there come a time when you were asked to interpret 20 for the Sheikh, translate for the Sheikh during attorney-client 21 meetings? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And do you know approximately when that occurred? 24 A. I believe it took place in March of 1995. 25 Q. And where did that first interview actually occur? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9060 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. The first time I went to the lawyer to see his client, 2 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, was in March 1995, as I said before. 3 And it was in the building right behind here, MCC, Metropolitan 4 Correction Center. 5 Q. And the Metropolitan Correction Center being the federal 6 jail for lower Manhattan? 7 A. I guess so, yeah. 8 Q. And who was the first attorney you met in connection with 9 representation of Sheikh Rahman? Who first approached you? 10 A. I believe Ms. Stewart's office called Hess Translation and 11 asked for a cleared interpreter to go do some work in prison. 12 And I was available at the time and I took that assignment. 13 And I came to the courthouse after the session was over. I met 14 with Ms. Stewart and we walked over to MCC. 15 Q. You used the phrase "a cleared interpreter." What do you 16 understand that to mean? 17 A. Interpreters have to be cleared in order to be able to 18 enter a federal prison. They have to go through a process of 19 approval. 20 Q. And did you have such approval? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And had you known Ms. Stewart before this occasion? Had 23 you ever met her before? 24 A. I never met Ms. Stewart physically, no. 25 Q. Did you know her by reputation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9061 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. And did you gradually or come to meet the other attorneys 3 associated with the case? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And who were those other attorneys primarily associated 6 with the case? 7 A. The case in general or only the portion concerning Omar 8 Abdel Rahman? 9 Q. You're right. My question is to the legal team, the 10 lawyers who represented Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 11 A. Yes. I met with Mr. Ramsey Clark and I met with Mr. Abdeen 12 Jabara. And I might have seen Mr. Schilling once or twice 13 during that time. 14 Q. Had you heard of Ramsey Clark before you met him? 15 A. Yes. Of course I did. 16 Q. What had you heard about Mr. Clark? 17 A. Well, I knew Mr. Clark was the Attorney General during the 18 Lyndon Johnson administration. I knew that he worked on 19 several issues of civil rights. I knew that he was working on 20 a lot of war crimes courts, you know, international peace 21 efforts and things of this nature. 22 Q. And did you consider him by reputation a high quality 23 lawyer? 24 A. Of course. Of course. 25 Q. How about Ms. Stewart? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9062 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. Well, Ms. Stewart, I knew that she represented several 2 high-profile clients. There was actually an article written 3 about her the week I met her, or maybe the week after that. 4 Q. And based on -- I don't mean to cut you off, but based on 5 what you read about and heard about Ms. Stewart, did you 6 consider her to be a high quality attorney? 7 A. Sure, I did. Absolutely. 8 Q. And Mr. Jabara, Abdeen Jabara, had you ever met Mr. Jabara 9 before this case? 10 A. No, I never met Mr. Jabara before the case. 11 Q. And had you heard of Mr. Jabara? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. What had you heard about Mr. Jabara before you met him? 14 A. Mr. Jabara was the cofounder of the Arab-American 15 Anti-Defamation League. 16 Q. And had you heard about that before you met him? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And did you consider him a reputable high quality attorney? 19 A. Yes. 20 MS. BAKER: Objection to leading. 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 Q. Did you meet any other attorneys in Mr. Clark's suite of 23 offices? 24 A. I met with Mr. Larry Schilling, I believe, once or twice. 25 I never met Mr. Schilling before I went with Mr. Schilling to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9063 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 see the Sheikh. I only met him in the office. 2 Q. Had you met -- I'm sorry. 3 Had you heard Mr. Schilling ever before you met him? 4 A. No, but I came to know him. I knew him after that. I 5 mean, he's a Harvard graduate. He has a very interesting view 6 of the law, and I like him a lot. 7 Q. And after you met the attorneys, did you -- what did you do 8 to work on the Sheikh's case? What was your role? 9 A. Mainly at that time I was interpreting for the lawyers. So 10 whenever the lawyers used to go to meet with the client, they 11 used to call me ahead of time and I'd meet them and I'd 12 interpret for them. 13 Q. Did you actually testify at any time at the trial itself? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And what did you testify about at the trial? 16 A. I testified for translation issues, linguistic issues, 17 words from Arab to English, English to Arabic, basically 18 translation of material connected to the case. And I testified 19 for, I believe, four or five defendants. 20 Q. Are you aware that the indictment in this case alleges -- 21 what it describes, that you were a, quote, witness at Sheikh 22 Rahman's trial? 23 A. I do. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this time I'd like to read 25 and display a stipulation for the jury, if I may. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9064 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. RUHNKE: This is -- 3 THE COURT: What's the number? 4 MR. RUHNKE: Defendants' Exhibit MY Stip 1. 5 THE COURT: All right. MY Stip 1 received in 6 evidence. 7 (Defendant's Exhibit MY Stip 1 received in evidence) 8 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 9 It reads, the parties hereby stipulate and agree to 10 the following: 11 One, at the trial of Sheikh Abdel Rahman, Mohammed 12 Yousry was called by Lynne Stewart and several of the other 13 defense attorneys to testify regarding issues of translation 14 and interpretation of the Arabic language. 15 Two, Mr. Yousry's testimony at Abdel Rahman's trial 16 was entirely in his role as a translator. 17 It's signed here by several of the parties, and on the 18 next page signed by the rest of the parties. And it's dated 19 New York, New York, November 15, 2004. 20 BY MR. RUHNKE: 21 Q. Does that stipulation accurately describe the role you 22 played at that trial? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. After the trial was over, did you play a role in the case 25 or have a function to serve with respect to the appeal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9065 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. To the appeal, yes, but the appeal -- I wasn't hired to 2 work on the appeal until May of 1997. So basically I was not 3 working on the Sheikh's case for over a year-and-a-half, I 4 believe. 5 Q. I think we've had testimony in the record about this, but 6 do you recall when it was that the conviction occurred in the 7 Sheikh's case? 8 A. I believe January of '96. 9 Q. And when did you resume work on the Sheikh's case in 10 connection with the appeal? 11 A. May, June of '97. I do not remember the exact date, but it 12 was either May or June of 1997. 13 Q. What did you do when you were working on the appeal? 14 A. Basically I translated the motions that the government 15 took, 700 pages I believe every two-and-a-half weeks, motions 16 written by Mr. Clark, similar number of pages. I took 17 responsibility on interpreting twice weekly legal calls between 18 the lawyers and the client on Abdel Rahman. 19 Q. Let me stop there for a moment please. The twice-weekly 20 calls, when did you become involved as the interpreter for 21 those twice-weekly calls from Sheikh Rahman? 22 A. I believe it's either May or June of 1997. 23 Q. So just from January of 1996 through June of 1997, were you 24 working steadily or not on the Sheikh's case? 25 A. No, I wasn't. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9066 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. During that period of time did you make any visits with the 2 Sheikh? 3 A. I believe I visited with Mr. Jabara once and with 4 Ms. Stewart once. 5 Q. Let's take the visit with Mr. Jabara. Do you recall where 6 the Sheikh was in prison when you made the visit with 7 Mr. Jabara? 8 A. Springfield, Missouri. 9 Q. And did you go out to Springfield with Mr. Jabara? 10 A. Yes, I did. 11 Q. What was the purpose of that trip to Springfield with the 12 attorney Abdeen Jabara? 13 A. Well, there was an interview request by World News Tonight, 14 an ABC program. 15 Q. Are you saying World News Tonight? 16 A. Yes. ABC, it's an ABC program. And they wanted to 17 interview the Sheikh after his conviction. And ABC agreed to 18 fly Mr. Jabara and Mr. Jabara's interpreter to witness that 19 particular interview. 20 Q. Did you, in fact, witness an interview by World News 21 Tonight of Sheikh Rahman? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. And did you act as the interpreter for that interview? 24 A. No, I did not. 25 Q. What was your role and why did you go there? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9067 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. My role was basically to inform Mr. Jabara of the kind of 2 questions ABC wants to ask the Sheikh and the Sheikh's answer. 3 So the lawyer can clear that before it goes on the air. 4 Q. Does Mr. Jabara speak Arabic? 5 A. Mr. Jabara speaks very good Arabic, yes. 6 Q. Speaks, I'm sorry? 7 A. Speaks good Arabic. I'm sorry, yes, he does. 8 Q. Do you know of your own knowledge if Mr. Jabara was a 9 native born speaker of Arabic? 10 A. I don't think he's native. I think he learned here in the 11 United States. 12 Q. Did you make a -- during this year-and-a-half period, did 13 you make a second trip to Springfield? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And what was the purpose of this second trip? 16 A. Another interview, another TV interview. 17 Q. And who did you go with to the second interview, attorney 18 interview? 19 A. I'm sorry? 20 Q. The attorney. 21 A. Yes, the attorney was Ms. Lynne Stewart. 22 Q. And do you know what news agency wished to interview Sheikh 23 Rahman on that occasion? 24 A. It was TV Japan, an educational department of TV Japan. 25 It's a public TV. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9068 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Japanese public TV? 2 A. Japanese public TV. 3 Q. Is that called NHK? 4 A. That sounds right. 5 Q. And did the reporter from NHK Japanese public TV conduct an 6 interview with Sheikh Rahman? 7 A. Yes, he did. 8 Q. And where was it -- where did that take place? 9 A. It took place in Springfield, Missouri, as well. 10 Q. Did it take place in a hotel room? Did it take place in a 11 house? 12 A. No, in prison. 13 Q. And the same thing with regard to the first interview, 14 World News Tonight interview. Where did that physically take 15 place? 16 A. It took place in the prison at Missouri, Springfield. 17 Q. From the circumstances could you tell that the visit had 18 been preapproved? 19 A. Yes, it was. 20 Q. When people walked in -- people from NHK and from World 21 News Tonight walked in, what were they carrying? 22 A. Oh, they were carrying cameras. They were carrying 23 lighting, you know, audio equipment, video equipment, 24 transcripts. 25 Q. Did you see anybody say, stop, what are you doing here with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9069 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 all that stuff? 2 A. No. 3 Q. This period between January 1996 and 1997, did you have any 4 other involvement with the case of Sheikh Rahman or 5 representation of Sheikh Rahman beyond what you've just 6 described for us? 7 A. No, I did not. 8 Q. Were you paid for your work at trial? 9 A. Yes, I was. 10 Q. Do you recall what the hourly rate you were paid was? 11 A. In 1993 I was making between $25 to $45 an hour. It 12 depends on the task. Of course, when I testified as an expert 13 witness, it was much higher than that. 14 Q. When you testified as an expert witness, without discussing 15 any case where you actually testified, what is your fee when 16 you testify, hourly rate when you testify as an expert? 17 A. $1,200 a day for my testimony. 18 Q. And when you worked on the appeal, did you receive payment 19 for your work on the appeal? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. Do you remember what your hourly rate was to be working on 22 the appeal? 23 A. It was $65 an hour. 24 Q. And do you recall whether you were paid everything you were 25 owed for your work on the appeal? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9070 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. Not everything, no. 2 Q. Did you ask the attorneys to do anything about that? 3 A. Yes. I asked Mr. Clark. 4 Q. To do what? 5 A. To follow up, to see why -- what happened -- I knew that 6 there was a problem with the time, the date, because Mr. Clark 7 was flying someplace. He signed a voucher later or something. 8 And he had to just write a request so they can read -- you 9 know, pay me what they owe me. 10 Q. Do you remember a phone call, phone conversation that was 11 played in court between you and Ms. Stewart regarding payment? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. What was that conversation about? 14 A. It was about the same amount of money. Mr. Clark actually 15 wrote a couple of letters. And Mr. Clark travels a lot. He 16 was in Iran a lot. So I spoke with Ms. Stewart about the 17 money, and she said she would call and she'll try to get me my 18 money. 19 Q. And did you ever get paid what you were owed from the 20 government? 21 A. Not from the government. 22 Q. Directing your attention -- 23 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if we're going to take an 24 afternoon break, this would be a good time. It's 3:30. 25 THE COURT: OK. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9071 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 ten-minute break. Please remember my continuing instructions 2 not to talk about the case. Keep an open mind until you've 3 heard all of the evidence. 4 (Recess) 5 (In open court; jury present) 6 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 9 are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Ruhnke. 12 BY MR. RUHNKE: 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, is your monitor working? 14 A. No, it's not. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 16 Otherwise -- I would try to display it but the witness' monitor 17 is not working. 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to show you a document that's marked 20 Defendant's Exhibit MY1403. And just tell me if you're 21 familiar with that document. 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. And what is that document? Just describe what it is. 24 A. It's a check -- 25 Q. And -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9072 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. -- made out to me from the United States government for 2 their work. 3 Q. And was that check received by you? 4 A. Yes, it was. 5 Q. And is that a true and accurate copy of that check? 6 A. Yes, it is. 7 Q. In what connection did you receive that check? 8 A. Through the appeal. It says docket number 96 -- 9 Q. Without reading the docket number. 10 A. Yes, to the a -- the work I did on the appeal for the 11 Sheikh, Sheikh Omar. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I offer Defense Exhibit 1403. 13 THE COURT: All right. No objection? 14 Defendant's Exhibit MY1403 received in evidence. 15 (Defendant's Exhibit MY1403 received in evidence) 16 MR. RUHNKE: And may I display it on the Elmo, your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE: 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, looking at the check we talked about, what was 21 the total amount of the fee you received for your work as an 22 interpreter on Sheikh Rahman's appeal? 23 A. $33,226.90. 24 Q. And had you billed for an amount larger than that? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9073 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Do you remember roughly what you had billed for? 2 A. Approximately I think my voucher was 48,000, I think. 3 Q. I'm going to show you now -- 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I approach? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. -- three documents marked MY90, 91 and 92. Can you just 7 describe generally what those documents are. 8 A. These are the appeal written by the government, the 9 response to the appeal written by the United States government. 10 Q. And if I understand your testimony correctly, those were 11 written by the government in connection with the appeal of 12 Sheikh Rahman and the other defendants? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Would you pick up the first two thick volumes. Are they 15 volume one and volume two? 16 A. Yes, they are. 17 Q. Would you just turn to the end of volume two and tell us 18 how long volume two, how many pages is fully occupied. 19 A. Six hundred fifty-three pages. 20 Q. And the document marked MY92, what is that? 21 A. It's also -- I think it's what you call a petition written 22 by the government in response to request by the appellate 23 court, so it's in connection to the same appeal. 24 Q. And how long is MY92? 25 A. One hundred twenty-five pages. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9074 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. Are those single spaced, double spaced? 2 A. They're single spaced. 3 Q. Now, are you familiar with these documents? 4 A. Yes, I am. 5 Q. And in connection with your work on the appeal of Sheikh 6 Rahman, what were you required to do regarding those documents? 7 A. I was required to translate all those documents to the 8 Sheikh. And since he does not read, I put them all on cassette 9 tapes. 10 Q. And to your knowledge, what were done with the cassette 11 tapes? 12 A. The cassette tapes, I turned them over to either Mr. Ramsey 13 Clark or Mr. Jabara. And they were sent over to Mr. Abdel 14 Rahman. 15 Q. In addition to the briefs and legal papers written by the 16 government prosecutors in that case, did Mr. Clark also file a 17 legal brief in the Court of Appeals? 18 A. Yes, he did. 19 Q. Do you recall as you sit here today approximately how long 20 that was? 21 A. I know it was long. I guess it was probably at least 300, 22 400 pages, something of this -- I mean, you know, I can't 23 really recall. But about that. 24 Q. And in connection with your duties as an interpreter for 25 the appeal, translator for the appeal, did you also perform a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9075 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 similar function with the defense brief? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. And just what was that function? 4 A. I put it all on tapes. 5 Q. Now, in connection with the case of Mr. Rahman, did you 6 meet Mr. Sattar at some point? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And what was -- did you know Mr. Sattar before the case? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. And what was your understanding of his role in the Sheikh's 11 case? And now we're going back to the period of the trial. 12 A. I believe I met Mr. Sattar in March 1993, or maybe April, 13 and I believe -- I know that Mr. Sattar was a paralegal working 14 on the case at the time. 15 Q. What sorts of things did you observe him to do in the 16 Sheikh's case? 17 A. He was assisting the lawyers in their work. 18 Q. Do you know whether he was paid for his services? 19 A. Yes, he did get paid for his services. 20 Q. And did you meet other individuals who were working 21 particularly on the Sheikh's case who served a similar 22 function? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. And who were those individuals? 25 A. I met Mr. Nasser Ahmed Homosany and Mr. Nabil Elmasry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9076 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 Q. And did they -- what function did they serve in the cases? 2 A. They were also working as paralegals in 1993. 3 Q. And what sort of things did you see them doing? 4 A. They were working with Mr. Sattar, with the lawyers, with 5 the Sheikh, with whatever assignment the lawyers would give 6 them. 7 Q. How long did you continue to work on Sheikh Rahman's case? 8 A. The trial or the appeal? 9 Q. All together, in association with the attorneys? 10 A. Well, I believe it was seven, eight years. 11 Q. And during these seven and eight years, what sort of 12 relationship did you develop with the attorneys or way of 13 dealing with the case? 14 A. We developed a very good working relationship. We 15 developed some process and some mechanism in order to do 16 certain tasks. 17 Q. Did every attorney have the same way of doing things? 18 A. They did not have the same way of doing things, but they 19 agreed generally on what should be done. 20 Q. And was it your role to lead people -- let me withdraw that 21 question. 22 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 Q. And what was your role in relationship to the attorneys in 25 terms of equal, superior, employee? Where did you fall on that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9077 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 spectrum? 2 A. I was not equal. I was not superior. I was an employee. 3 Q. And who, if I could use this phrase, called the shots, as 4 far as the case was concerned, the representation? 5 A. The lawyers, of course. 6 Q. Did the lawyers ask you for input, advice, your thoughts, 7 insights? 8 A. They did on some occasions. 9 Q. Did you -- how would you describe the nature of the 10 relationship with the lawyers in terms of being respectful, not 11 respectful, cantankerous, at odds with each other? 12 A. It was very respectful. 13 Q. Did you ever -- and were you working with the lawyers in 14 connection with Sheikh Rahman right up until the time that you 15 were arrested on April 9, 2002? 16 A. Yes, I was. 17 Q. Did you ever raise with any of the attorneys your desire to 18 no longer work as the interpreter -- 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. -- for the case? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And were you ever replaced as the interpreter? 23 A. No, it did not happen. 24 Q. Why did you -- did there come a particular time that you 25 can recall when you felt you no longer wished to work on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9078 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 case or work with the attorneys or work with Sheikh Rahman any 2 longer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when was that time? 5 A. Early 2000. 6 Q. And why did you want to pull out of the case in early 2000? 7 A. I wasn't getting paid regularly at that time. My 8 collection materials that I needed for my dissertation was 9 almost completed. The case became more or less a burden for 10 me. I was one interpreter working with four lawyers. I was 11 doing coordination between lawyers and give them summaries of 12 what happened, this call, the next call. It was a lot, and I 13 wanted to take some time to finish my PhD. 14 Q. And did you raise this issue with the attorneys, that you 15 wanted to be replaced, that you wanted somebody else to take on 16 that task? 17 A. Several times, yes. 18 Q. And what were you told in reply? 19 A. The first thing is we appreciate what you do, we love you, 20 we respect you, but we cannot get anybody else approved. We'll 21 try again. This happened, I don't know, three or four times. 22 They sent me, 15, 25 names. I'm not sure how many names they 23 sent me, and the government keeps rejecting every one. So I 24 had no other alternative but to keep working with them until 25 they get a replacement. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9079 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- 2 Q. Why didn't you just quit? 3 MS. BAKER: Objection. Your Honor, I ask for an 4 instruction that that testimony is not offered for its truth, 5 only for its effect on Mr. Yousry's state of mind. 6 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, what other 7 people told Mr. Yousry is not offered for the truth of what was 8 said but only for its effect on the witness' state of mind. 9 All right. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, during your involvement with the case, did you 12 keep notes? Did you keep notebooks? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. I'm going to show you a series of documents which I'm going 15 to mark Defendant's Exhibit 1001, Defendant's Exhibit -- I'm 16 sorry, Defense Exhibit 1000. 17 THE COURT: Defendant's Exhibits MY. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Defendant's Exhibit MY, yes. 19 Defendant's Exhibit MY1001, Defendant's Exhibit 1002, 20 Defendant's Exhibit 1003, Defendant's Exhibit 1004 -- I should 21 have done this earlier, your Honor, I'm sorry. 1004, 22 defendant's Exhibit 1005, Defendant's Exhibit 1006. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke 24 for a minute. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9080 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 BY MR. RUHNKE: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, there may be a seventh collection. Let's start 3 with the sixth. 4 And would you take a look at these, please. Take a 5 look at each one of them. 6 THE COURT: While Mr. Yousry is looking at those, 7 you've -- you were identifying them as MY1000 through MY1006. 8 Were they previously marked as MY1000CT? 9 MR. RUHNKE: There's another set of exhibits we were 10 referring to, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 Q. Have you looked through those documents? 13 A. Yes, I have. 14 Q. And what are those documents? 15 A. These are the notes that I kept during the last seven 16 years, I believe, of working on the case of Sheikh Omar Abdel 17 Rahman. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I offer these exhibits. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke, 20 please. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm advised that at least the 23 transcript reflects that the first exhibit I referred to is 24 1001. It's 1000, and I do offer those exhibits. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, no objection, subject to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9081 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 limiting instruction that was provided. 2 THE COURT: All right. MY1000 through MY1006 are 3 received in evidence. 4 (Defendant's Exhibits MY1000 through MY1006 received 5 in evidence) 6 THE COURT: And there's a limiting instruction, ladies 7 and gentlemen. You've heard that these are notes that were 8 taken. 9 Now, Exhibits MY1000 through MY1006 contain written 10 statements. Some of those written statements assert that 11 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, his lawyers and Mr. Yousry said 12 certain things. You may consider those written statements in 13 Defense Exhibits MY1000 and MY1006 as evidence that Sheikh 14 Abdel Rahman, his lawyers and Mr. Yousry actually said the 15 things reflected in the written statements. However, the 16 contents of what Sheikh Abdel Rahman, his lawyers and 17 Mr. Yousry allegedly said is not admitted for its truth. 18 You may consider the content of the statements 19 allegedly made by Sheikh Abdel Rahman and his lawyers only for 20 its effect, if any, on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state 21 of mind. And you may consider the content of the statements 22 allegedly made by Mr. Yousry only as evidence of Mr. Yousry's 23 knowledge, intent or state of mind at that time. 24 Other written statements in Exhibits MY1000 through 25 MY1006 assert that certain news articles or other documents SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9082 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 were read to Sheikh Abdel Rahman. You may consider those 2 written statements as evidence that the news articles or other 3 documents reflected in these exhibits were actually read to 4 Sheikh Abdel Rahman. However, the content of the news articles 5 and other documents that were allegedly read to Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman are not admitted for their truth. 7 As I previously instructed you, newspaper articles 8 contain out-of-court statements by reporters about what 9 happened. Those statements may or may not be accurate, and in 10 turn, may contain even other statements being reported by the 11 reporters. So the articles are not being received for the 12 truth of anything that is said in them, but solely with respect 13 to the knowledge, intent and state of mind of Mr. Yousry. 14 And the same instruction applies to any other 15 documents contained in Defense Exhibits MY1000 through MY1006. 16 The documents are admitted not for the truth of anything that 17 is said in them, but only with respect to Mr. Yousry's 18 knowledge, intent or state of mind. 19 All right. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 21 BY MR. RUHNKE: 22 Q. What, generally speaking, in very broad terms, is contained 23 within those series of notebooks? 24 A. These notebooks contained the notes that I've written down 25 during the legal calls and the prison visit that took place for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9083 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 the past seven years. 2 Q. And why do you maintain notes like that? 3 A. Well, first of all, it's because of the process that was 4 developed over the years, to save time; to allow the lawyers to 5 get the information they want in the shortest possible time. 6 The Sheikh would talk for half an hour, 45 minutes or what have 7 you, and I would have to write that stuff down in order for me 8 to be able to translate that later on to the lawyer in charge. 9 Q. And when you made the prison visits, generally speaking, 10 was it one, two, three, four attorneys who accompanied you? 11 A. Usually one attorney would come along. 12 Q. And when you return from these visits, did it ever happen 13 that other attorneys would want to know what occurred during 14 the visits? 15 A. All the times, yes. 16 Q. And what role did the notebooks play in that process? 17 A. I would sit down, read them what happened from the 18 notebooks. 19 Q. If -- we've seen certainly videotapes, occasions where 20 Sheikh Rahman has dictated letters to you, is that correct? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. Did that happen -- was that unusual or was that -- or was 23 that common? 24 A. It was not unusual at all. 25 Q. And when Sheikh Rahman would dictate a letter or response SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9084 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 to someone, was it then your job to transmit the letter? 2 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. When Sheikh Rahman would dictate a letter, what did that 5 mean in terms of the letter being actually sent to someone? 6 A. Well, first the Sheikh has to ask permission to be able to 7 dictate something. And once that permission is granted, then 8 he starts to dictate. After the dictation is over, I translate 9 that letter to the lawyer in charge. 10 Sometimes the lawyers will cross out some sentences, 11 will take out some paragraphs. They would do whatever they 12 please with that, be it Mr. Clark, Lynne Stewart, Abdeen 13 Jabara. It's their permission, they requested it. It's their 14 information, not mine. That's theirs. I give it to them to do 15 with it whatever they please. They are in charge. 16 Q. And when, by and large, did you actually prepare these 17 notes? 18 A. I'm sorry. I couldn't hear you. 19 Q. When, by and large, did you prepare these notes? 20 A. At the same time the conversation was taking place. 21 Q. And if you would look at the very first notebook. Can you 22 find a date that would tell us when the first entry that would 23 be made in that notebook was? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Do you know when it was? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9085 4bgesat5 Yousry - direct 1 A. I will look, one second. It says Tuesday, June 24, 1997. 2 Q. And -- 3 A. I look over on the top, it says -- on three prior occasions 4 the lawyers spoke with the Sheikh. 5 MS. BAKER: Just -- 6