9503 4BN5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 23, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9504 4BN5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: A preliminary matter. 3 The government had asked at one time for a charge on a 4 First Amendment similar to the one that Judge Mukasey gave in 5 the Rahman case. And my first question is, I didn't see that 6 repeated in the government's request to charge, I don't think, 7 last night. 8 And so, my question was, was the government still 9 asking that a charge like that be given? 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if we could answer your 11 Honor's question tomorrow morning that would be helpful. I 12 have, a little bit, lost track of what the Judge Mukasey charge 13 was and how that compares to other requests that we have made 14 subsequently. For example, during Ms. Stewart's direct we 15 requested an instruction that talked more broadly about 16 constitutionality. 17 So, I would need to look at various things side by 18 side to answer your Honor's question in a useful way. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 The second thing that I wanted to raise in that 21 connection was if you still were looking for that or a similar 22 instruction, you could give me the copies of the transcript 23 pages from Judge Mukasey's charge. And then, finally, I would 24 give the defendants the opportunity to give me any objections 25 to that charge if there are any. Defendants might agree with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9505 4BN5SAT1 1 it. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just -- we don't have to talk 3 about this or decide this right now. You received last night 4 or this morning copies of the government's supplemental 5 requests including a long discussion of Blakely applicability. 6 We are going to ask for more time then tomorrow afternoon in 7 which to reply that. Perhaps we can take it up at the break as 8 to how long we are going to ask for. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Realistically it's going to be a long 11 time before we fully get to charging the jury. Realistically 12 your Honor needs to prepare a charge in advance, well in 13 advance of that time -- 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: -- and try to accommodate both of those. 16 THE COURT: I do need time to consider both what the 17 government gives me, what the defense gives me and my own 18 research on those issues. It's not something that I can turn 19 around overnight. 20 MR. RUHNKE: We are aware of that. We're trying to 21 accommodate those interests but the Blakely stuff kind of came 22 out of the blue. We weren't expecting -- especially since the 23 Second Circuit says the guidelines are still in effect and the 24 Supreme Court says otherwise. We didn't anticipate this 25 particular gloss to the government's charge request. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9506 4BN5SAT1 1 THE COURT: I can talk to you about that at the 2 appropriate time. 3 MR. RUHNKE: That's all we are asking right now. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And the Supreme Court may remove 5 all of these questions at any time. 6 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct. Or may not act until 7 July. 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 9 MR. RUHNKE: Or may not act until July. 10 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the lawyers in that case for 11 the case that came out of Wisconsin do say that they're 12 anticipating a decision on November 30th. I don't know the 13 basis for that. Ms. Shellow-Lavine has been in contact with 14 them. 15 THE COURT: All right. Are we ready to bring out the 16 jury? 17 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. I will give the preliminary 19 instruction that I had indicated last night, and Mr. Yousry is 20 on the stand. 21 Everyone is ready? 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Dember is running a 23 little late this morning but he will hopefully join us soon. 24 THE COURT: That's not a problem. 25 (Pause) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9507 4BN5SAT1 1 THE COURT: The jurors aren't quite ready yet. 2 While we have a moment, on the Blakely issue, one of 3 the things that would be useful for me to put on the subject of 4 the various Blakely options is to know what other judges have 5 done. 6 My -- I believe that judges follow different practices 7 in this district with respect to that issue and I don't know 8 any of the other Judges that had written or spoken on that. 9 Whether there are any decisions out there on that. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm not aware of any decisions 11 but we will check with our appeals unit which would be keeping 12 track of such matters. 13 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Baker. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there is a Blakely sentencing 15 website -- I don't have the URL here, we could also provide 16 that -- a law professor runs it and collects a great deal of 17 this information. 18 And also at the GoldsteinHowe.com website, Tom 19 Goldstein, who is a Supreme Court practitioner, has been 20 collecting some of these matters that I can recall seeing. 21 MS. BAKER: Is your Honor interested in knowing what 22 has been happening in other circuits or just in the Second 23 Circuit? 24 I mean, I assume your Honor is aware, for example, I 25 believe it's the Ninth Circuit has said that now juries must SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9508 4BN5SAT1 1 make factual findings on sentence enhancing issues. 2 So, what some other circuits at least are doing is 3 completely not relevant because the Second Circuit obviously, 4 conversely to the Ninth, has said that as of right now the 5 guidelines remain in effect with the Judge determining 6 sentencing enhancements. 7 THE COURT: I am most interested in the Second 8 Circuit. I realize that the Judges in this Court were split 9 before Mincey on what to do with the sentencing guidelines. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, while we are waiting for the 11 jury, I wonder if we can ask the court reporter to give us 12 LiveNote assistance? We are writing one line, I think that is 13 a function of the file being too full but I don't know how to 14 fix it. 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9509 4BN5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, as a preliminary matter, you 6 have heard testimony and may continue to hear testimony from 7 Mr. Yousry about conclusions he reached in his research. This 8 testimony is offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry and only 9 as to his knowledge, intent and state of mind and not for the 10 truth of the historical events described. 11 All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 12 Mr. Fletcher? 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 14 you are still under oath. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 16 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, (resumed) 17 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 18 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MS. BAKER:: 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, before we pick up where we left off yesterday, 22 let me ask you about a few miscellaneous odds and ends. 23 I asked you a series of questions yesterday regarding 24 your post-high school education. 25 A. I remember that, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9510 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Did I omit everything or did we go through your entire 2 educational background since high school? 3 A. I think we did not discuss the New School for Social 4 Research. 5 Q. Okay, that was once you came to the United States in 6 between your work at CUNY and at NYU, correct? 7 A. That is correct. Yes. 8 Q. And remind us again, what did you study at the New School? 9 A. I believe it was political economy. I didn't finish, I 10 transferred to NYU. 11 Q. You transferred those credits to NYU? 12 A. Right. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up and 14 talk into the microphone. Thank you. 15 Q. During your direct testimony by Mr. Ruhnke there were a 16 number of transcripts that were introduced into evidence of 17 calls that were recorded on your home telephone. Do you 18 remember those transcripts? 19 A. I do. 20 Q. I believe you testified, in response to Mr. Ruhnke's 21 questions, that you had listened to the recordings that 22 corresponded to each of those transcripts, is that right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And were those recordings accurate recordings of telephone 25 conversations that you actually had? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9511 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe so. Yes. 2 Q. Now, in the government's case there were several other 3 transcripts and recordings introduced of a few other telephone 4 conversations that you had had. 5 Do you remember those? 6 A. I believe so. Yes. 7 Q. And had you listened to those recordings as well? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Those were also accurate recordings of telephone 10 conversations that you had? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, I asked you some questions yesterday, and you had also 13 given some testimony on direct examination about the exhibits 14 marked MY-550LT-3 and MY-550LT-4? 15 A. Is that my dissertation? 16 Q. Those are two pieces, two drafts of parts of your 17 dissertation, correct? 18 A. Yes, that's correct. 19 Q. And I believe you testified on direct that actually those 20 two particular documents out of the four that were put into 21 evidence on your direct, those exhibits were two parts of one 22 chapter relating to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, you testified in response to one of my questions 25 yesterday that MY-550LT-3 is a draft that's dated January 19th SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9512 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 of 2000, is that right? 2 A. I believe that's the date on the draft, yes. 3 Q. And the other part of that chapter, MY-550LT-4, was that 4 drafted at around the same time? 5 A. I think that particular chapter I was done with the first 6 draft in 1999, early 2000. I did some work on it after. I 7 handed it in, I got some comments back and I was working on it. 8 So, I believe some parts of this particular chapter I 9 was working on it, I believe, up to late 2001, early 2002 -- I 10 believe that the first 30 pages or 35 pages of that particular 11 chapter. 12 Q. That's the part that you were revising later on? 13 A. Yes, I was. 14 THE COURT: Yes, one juror raised the juror's hand. 15 Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up and speak into 16 the microphone. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I will. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 MS. BAKER: May I ask, did the court reporter get the 20 last question and answer? She's shaking her head yes -- 21 THE COURT: Well, because the juror raised the juror's 22 hand I would ask that the juror read back the last two 23 questions and answers. 24 MS. BAKER: You mean the court reporter, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. The court reporter, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9513 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 misspoke. Thank you. 2 If the court reporter would read back the last two 3 questions and answers? Thank you. 4 And Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up. 5 (Record read) 6 BY MS. BAKER: 7 Q. Just to clarify that last question and answer, a couple of 8 answers ago you made reference to the first 30 or 35 pages. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So, I was trying to clarify, you were saying that that 11 part, the first 30 or 35 pages is the part that you were 12 revising later on into 2001? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, turning back to information that you knew about Sheikh 15 Omar Abdel Rahman based on your work on your dissertation, 16 between 1984 and 1990 when Sheikh Abdel Rahman was not in 17 custody in Egypt he was lecturing all over the country in 18 Egypt, is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And during that same period of time there were also times 21 when he traveled abroad, correct? 22 A. That is correct. Yes. 23 Q. And he traveled to, among other places, Pakistan? 24 A. I cannot say this is true but that's what I was told; yes. 25 Q. Afghanistan? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9514 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe so, yes. 2 Q. Denmark? 3 A. Denmark; yes. 4 Q. United States? 5 A. I'm not sure if he came to the U.S. before 1990. I think 6 it's 1990, if I'm not mistaken. I don't remember exactly. 7 Q. And a few other countries also? 8 A. Yes. I believe England, Turkey; yes. 9 Q. And at least one of his purposes for traveling was to give 10 lectures in those other countries, correct? 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 Q. Now, in 1990 Sheikh Abdel Rahman left Egypt and went to the 13 Sudan, correct? 14 A. There was an agreement, yes. 15 Q. That may not be where he was originally intending to go but 16 that's where he ended up, correct? 17 A. Yes. That's correct, yes. 18 Q. Now, when Abdel Rahman left Egypt in 1990, his reasons 19 included that he wanted to increase the international scope and 20 level of support to Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya both financially and 21 ideologically, correct? 22 A. Yes. Among other things, yes. 23 Q. And he also thought it would be easier for him to lead the 24 movement from abroad, correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9515 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 He, I believe, were thinking of the experience that 2 Khomeini had in France. He wanted to emulate that. 3 Q. Now, at some point later after he left Egypt in 1990, later 4 than that he came to the United States, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, moving forward in time, there came a time when he was 7 criminally prosecuted here in Federal Court in New York, 8 correct? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. And you knew that from working on his case? 11 A. Yes, sure. 12 Q. Now, you knew that the charges against him included 13 conspiring to bomb New York City landmarks and the United 14 Nations building? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And the charges also included conspiring to assassinate 17 Egyptian President Mubarak? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. And also against waging urban warfare against the United 20 States? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. And you know, based on your work of the case, that on 23 October 2nd of 1995, a jury in this court house found Sheikh 24 Abdel Rahman guilty of all the charges against him? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9516 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And you also know that as a result of that finding of 2 guilt, he was sentenced to life imprisonment? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you know, also, as you noted in your dissertation, that 5 at his sentencing proceeding, I delivered a four-hour speech, 6 correct? 7 A. I was told that, yes. I wasn't present but I was told 8 that, yes. 9 Q. Well, you've seen either a transcript or some other written 10 record of it, correct? 11 A. I did not see the transcript. There was some notes taken 12 by some of the paralegals, I've seen that; yes. 13 Q. In his speech that he gave at his sentencing he declared 14 his defiance against the United States, the Egyptian government 15 and the country of Israel, correct? 16 A. I remember that, yes. 17 Q. Now, the last set of facts that we were just discussing 18 related to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and most of what we discussed 19 in my questions to you yesterday afternoon about Abdel Rahman 20 and about the Islamic Group, that's information that is 21 contained in the drafts of your dissertation, correct? 22 A. Yes. That is information that was collected by me through 23 several methods of research. Yes. 24 Q. Now, not contained in a draft of your dissertation but 25 information that you also know is that, after Abdel Rahman's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9517 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 conviction and sentence, the Court of Appeals affirmed or 2 upheld his conviction and sentence, correct? 3 A. I think I stopped in 1995 so I knew that, yes, but there 4 was no need for me to include that in the first draft. Yes. 5 Q. Just to clarify your last answer. As you testified on 6 direct, the scope of your dissertation, it only was intended to 7 cover the time period up to 1995, correct? 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 Q. But because of your continued involvement with Abdel Rahman 10 and your work on the appeal as you testified to -- 11 A. Yes, I did, yes. 12 Q. -- you also know about the Court of Appeals decision? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. So, you learned that the Court of Appeals upheld Abdel 15 Rahman's conviction at around the time it happened, which was 16 in August of 1999, correct? 17 A. It sounds right, yes. 18 Q. Now, as you testified on direct, you translated the 19 government's written submissions that it had made to the Court 20 of Appeals? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And therefore, as part of translating them, you obviously 23 read them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And those were the red covered books or booklets that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9518 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Mr. Ruhnke showed you the other day, correct? 2 A. Yes, that is correct. 3 Q. And I believe he marked them as Defense Exhibits MY-90, 4 through MY-92; do you remember those? 5 A. I remember the books, I don't remember the numbers, but I 6 take your words for it. 7 Q. Fair enough. 8 Now, the government's written submissions to the 9 Appeals Court included, among other things, the government's 10 description of the evidence that it had presented at trial 11 against Abdel Rahman, correct? 12 A. I assume so, yes. That was 1997, 1998, so I assume so, but 13 I don't remember the details of it, so. 14 Q. Now, you also know, based on your continuing work with 15 Abdel Rahman and his lawyers, that the Supreme Court later 16 declined to hear his case, correct? 17 A. That is correct, yes. 18 Q. And you learned that at about the time it happened -- 19 November of 1999, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. Now, turning back again to the topic of your dissertation, 22 your reason for writing your dissertation was in order to 23 obtain a Ph.D, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you wanted to obtain a Ph.D, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9519 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, that was a goal that you had started pursuing by no 3 later than February of 1993 because that's when you applied to 4 NYU's Ph.D program, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that goal of getting your Ph.D was a goal that you were 7 still pursuing as of the date of your arrest, right? 8 A. That is right. Yes. 9 Q. And just to remind the jury, that was April 9 of 2002, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you had 13 finished all of the requirements for your Ph.D other than your 14 dissertation, is that right? 15 A. There was a waiver pending for foreign language. 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, hold on. 17 THE WITNESS: There was a waiver pending -- 18 THE COURT: Hold on. Could you start again, please? 19 And make sure to keep your voice up and talk into the 20 microphone, thank you. 21 The question was -- could you just repeat the question 22 and let Mr. Yousry start again? 23 Thank you. 24 BY MS. BAKER:: 25 Q. Is it a fact that, as of April 9, 2002, you had finished SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9520 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 all your requirements for your Ph.D other than the 2 dissertation? 3 A. With the exception of a waiver for foreign language. 4 Everything else was done. 5 Q. I'm sorry? 6 A. Everything else was done. Yes. 7 Q. When you say waiver for foreign language, there was a 8 language requirement that you could, by getting a waiver, not 9 have to comply with it? 10 A. There was a change of policies in 1997 when Professor 11 Lockman and Professor Gilson came to NYU, they installed a new 12 policy of two foreign languages other than middle eastern 13 language. 14 Since I was part of the old program I was able to 15 study Turkish in order to offset this requirement. I believe 16 it is two courses and then you get a waiver. I think I only 17 studied one and I asked for that waiver at that time. 18 I'm not sure what happened at that time, but that's 19 basically my understanding. 20 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Yousry, I can -- 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: No, it's all right. It's just that I want 23 to make sure that everyone can hear your answers. So, if you 24 would please keep your voice up and talk into the microphone 25 because the acoustics in the courtroom are not very good and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9521 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 the microphones are really important. And so, speak into the 2 microphone. Don't put your mouth too close to the microphone 3 but if you talk close to the microphone, your voice will carry. 4 THE WITNESS: I apologize. I am doing my best. I'm 5 sorry. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 7 BY MS. BAKER:: 8 Q. Now, your goal in pursuing your Ph.D was to obtain a job in 9 academia, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. As a professor at a university or college, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in order to achieve that goal of being a professor, you 14 had to obtain a Ph.D, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Now, you knew that the quality of your dissertation would 17 affect your prospects of getting a job in academia, isn't that 18 right? 19 A. Naturally, yes. 20 Q. And you also hoped that you would be able to get your 21 dissertation published, correct? 22 A. That is correct. Yes. 23 Q. And, in fact, you had made some efforts to find a publisher 24 for either your dissertation or a book derived from your 25 dissertation, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9522 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe Professor Coleman, at York College, and Professor 2 Lockman, they spoke to me about the possibility of publishing 3 that work when it is done. But I did not speak to a publisher. 4 So those were the efforts done on my behalf, yes. 5 Q. In any conversations that you had with anyone, were there 6 references to a particular writer? 7 A. Yes. There were several references. I got a couple of 8 articles published in several journals but you cannot publish 9 something before it is done. 10 So there were a couple of projects going on at the 11 same time -- my dissertation and the project of a book. 12 Q. Okay, and specifically with respect to publishing either 13 your dissertation or something based on your dissertation, had 14 there been discussions about the possibility of using a 15 particular publisher? 16 A. Maybe, yes. Yes. I don't doubt that. 17 Q. Now, as part of your work on your dissertation, obviously 18 you did a lot of research, correct? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And your dissertation, as you yourself described it, was to 21 be an attempt to present a comprehensive examination of the 22 history, ideas and practices of the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, as 23 well as extensive analysis of the life and struggles of its 24 general leader, Al-Amir Alam, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9523 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And, therefore, in doing your research, you extensively 3 studied the history of the Islamic Group, correct? 4 A. What was available of it, yes. 5 Q. And you also studied Sheikh Abdel Rahman, his life, and his 6 beliefs, correct? 7 A. Yes. I used most of the material that was available to me, 8 yes. 9 Q. Now, you submitted a proposal for your dissertation, in 10 other words something formal, in writing, in April of 1998, 11 correct? 12 A. I'm not sure if you are referring to the first proposal or 13 the second proposal. 14 Q. Let me show you a document. 15 A. Okay. 16 THE COURT: You may approach. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document marked for 19 identification as Government Exhibit 727; do you recognize it? 20 A. Yes, I do. That is the first proposal that I wrote in 21 particular regarding this particular dissertation because I had 22 another topic before that. This was not the topic of my 23 choice, so. I just want to make that clear. 24 But that's the one in connection to Omar Abdel 25 Rahman's biography and Al-Gama'a al- Islamiyya, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9524 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Just to be clear. Although you had some other subject area 2 or scope or focus of a dissertation at an earlier point in 3 time -- 4 A. Right. 5 Q. -- this was a proposal that you did submit and this is the 6 proposal that essentially gave rise to the documents that are 7 in evidence as drafts of part of your dissertation, correct? 8 A. Correct, correct. 9 The first proposal was about the 1935 student movement 10 in each. There was also an idea about cinema and theater in 11 relation to an end toward peace in the Middle East. 12 Because the professor in charge of comparative 13 literature left NYU I was unable to pursue this idea and 14 because Professor Lockman came in and who, you know, was very 15 much interested in the Muslim movement, I worked with Professor 16 Lockman on developing this particular topic, yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 18 727. 19 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard on that, your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right, we will take it up at the 22 break. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, actually I have a number of 24 questions that derive from this document, so unfortunately I 25 would ask that we take that now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9525 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. We will take it up now. 2 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 3 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 4 All rise, please? 5 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9526 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, you may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: First, Mr. Ruhnke, any objections? 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, this is a document that we 7 disclosed in discovery among other documents. I am now looking 8 through it -- it is about 40-pages long -- for any relevance 9 objection I might have or 403 objection I might have. I didn't 10 know it was going to be handed up this morning. 11 The government has a right to hold back on 12 cross-examination documents, I understand that, but we have a 13 right to deal with it as it is being handed to us. 14 What I would like is the opportunity to look through 15 it to see what is in here and see whether, on 16 cross-examination, there is relevant 403, etc. 17 THE COURT: All right. I will take five -- what was 18 it, Mr. Tigar? 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have never seen this 20 document in my life. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. TIGAR: It raises all of the issues that we were 23 discussing yesterday. And given that, what I am just looking 24 at now, we think that a limiting instruction would not be 25 adequate to deal with this document if the government intends SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9527 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 to dwell on it at some great length. 2 But I would like the chance to read it to be able to 3 make that argument in more detail. 4 THE COURT: All right. And, if necessary, we can talk 5 about it with the government as to whether the government 6 intends to dwell on it at any length. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, because of its length may, I 8 proffer a copy to the Court so the Court can glance through it 9 in anticipation of any arguments that might be made? 10 THE COURT: Sure. Thank you. 11 MS. BAKER: Basically, I intend to ask Mr. Yousry a 12 few questions about some of what it -- let me start by saying 13 the document is a cover letter followed by an outline followed 14 by a proposal, which is essentially a written summary of what 15 the dissertation would be about, followed by a bibliography. 16 I intend to ask Mr. Yousry a few questions based on 17 the outline and perhaps the proposal, although I'm not sure 18 about that, and then to establish with him, through the 19 bibliography, that those are all materials that he had reviewed 20 and was familiar with. 21 The government does not object to the Court giving a 22 limiting instruction with respect to this document the same as 23 the limiting instruction that the Court gave first thing this 24 morning. 25 And to the extent that anyone makes any kind of a 403 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9528 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 objection, we believe that that would suffice. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 (Recess) 4 (Continued next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9529 4bnesat2 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the government has given us 3 727, which was the document that caused the break in the 4 proceedings. And then during the break they handed us a 5 Government Exhibit marked 706A, which consists of 54 6 single-spaced typed pages of notes and drafts, rough drafts 7 relative to Mr. Yousry's thesis. 8 I believe there's probably thousands of pages of 9 drafts of Mr. Yousry's thesis that are floating around and were 10 disclosed in discovery or available by discovery. I would 11 certainly like to consider making a 106 objection once I get 12 ahold of the rest of the various drafts of these documents. I 13 have a relevance objection. If Ms. Baker could give us a brief 14 outline of where she's going with this, maybe we can solve the 15 problem. If she doesn't want to do that, that's certainly her 16 prerogative, and I understand. 17 I'm looking at what she said just before the break. 18 It was to ask a couple of questions about the outline and then 19 the bibliography. If that's so, then we don't need to 20 introduce 60 or now 110, or 90 pages of documents. I just 21 haven't had a chance really to digest what's in here in terms 22 of objections and possible 106 applications based on the other 23 drafts of various chapters of this thesis that are floating 24 around. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9530 4bnesat2 1 MR. RUHNKE: I'm not in a position to formulate a full 2 objection right now, that's my problem. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, during Mr. Yousry's direct 4 examination, he introduced four documents that were drafts of 5 portions of his dissertation. The government knew that there 6 were many other documents out there that constituted various 7 drafts of portions of his dissertation. All of those documents 8 were either produced in electronic form in pretrial discovery 9 in the case back in the summer of 2002 or were made available 10 for inspection if they were hard copies that were seized in the 11 search of Mr. Yousry's residence. So all of the material has 12 been available to all the parties all along. 13 When Mr. Yousry chose which four pieces to put in in 14 his direct examination, the government didn't object, and those 15 pieces came in. Now the government seeks to introduce an 16 additional piece in the form of 706A. 727, the one that I had 17 handed to the Court before the break, as I said, contains the 18 outline and the proposal. So 727 is sort of the framework 19 within which these other pieces sort of fall, and that's part 20 of the purpose of 727. 21 The other part, as I said earlier, is the 22 bibliography. But as far as 706A, I don't believe that I 23 should have to get into the specifics of how I would intend to 24 use the document in cross-examining Mr. Yousry, but obviously 25 it is relevant for the same purpose as the testimony that I've SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9531 4bnesat2 1 elicited up to this point, which is Mr. Yousry's knowledge, 2 intent and state of mind. There is information in 706A that is 3 not in the four pieces of the dissertation that Mr. Yousry 4 chose to put into evidence on direct examination. So it is not 5 merely cumulative. 6 And so because Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and 7 state of mind is highly relevant in the case, particularly with 8 respect to Counts 4 and 5, we believe that we should be 9 permitted to introduce it and question him about it. Again, we 10 would agree to the same limiting instruction with respect to 11 this document. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, a brief reply. We chose to 13 introduce the version of the thesis that was on his laptop at 14 the time it was seized by the FBI because we believed that was 15 a fair way of showing the jury how it existed in its most 16 recent formulation at the very moment of his arrest as to go on 17 state of mind. 18 What has been shown to me, especially 706A, are, even 19 on the face of it, extremely early rough notes of topics for a 20 dissertation. There is -- and, again, I haven't had a chance 21 to digest what's here. I don't quarrel with Ms. Baker's 22 statement that this, among many other documents, was made 23 available in discovery. I don't claim to have a photographic 24 memory of what's contained in these documents, and I do believe 25 there may be legitimate 106 objections as these drafts evolved SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9532 4bnesat2 1 over the years. 2 I'm most of all not certain as to the date, or if the 3 government can establish the date of this draft; because if 4 it's before the period of time covered in this indictment, his 5 intent and state of mind become less relevant -- much less 6 relevant, not relevant at all. If -- and I'm assuming 7 worst-case scenarios as I'm talking, which I've not obviously 8 had a chance to digest what's in this. I'm assuming that 9 somewhere in there Ms. Baker's going to pull out an inference 10 that he was actually fully supportive of al-Gama'a 11 Al-Islamiyya. I don't know if that's in there or not. I don't 12 think so. 13 But even taking worst-case scenario, to take an 14 academic work that's evolving over the years, to not be able to 15 put a date on it -- and I don't know if the government says 16 they can put a date on it. And if they ask Mr. Yousry the 17 date, then fine, we'll take whatever answer they get. But I 18 don't believe this is even within the scope of the period 19 covered by the indictment. 20 And it's going to -- it's likely to set up 403 21 problems in terms of waste of time, if we have to then go back 22 to thousands of other pages of drafts, some of which are 23 covered with handwritten notes as it changed over the years to 24 the documents that eventually became the thesis, at least as it 25 existed on the day of Mr. Yousry's arrest in April of 2002. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9533 4bnesat2 1 So I object to the relevance grounds. I object to -- 2 particularly as to whether it can be tied in to a relevant time 3 period in connection with this indictment, I object to the 403 4 basis and I may have 106 objections. The problem is I can't 5 tell you whether I'm going to have 106 objections until I have 6 a chance to look at the other thousands of pages of drafts. 7 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we also have an objection to 8 706A. We have just received it for the first time, and the 9 document apparently relies on -- in part on Mr. Sattar as a 10 source for some of the information in the document. And we 11 object both on hearsay grounds and relevance grounds and 403 12 grounds. 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I also had asked to be heard. 14 With respect to Mr. Yousry's case, we have two issues. 15 The first, of course, is his credibility, about which we'd be 16 permitted to cross-examine, because to the extent that he said 17 nobody was in a conspiracy that I saw, we would wish to inquire 18 into his credibility and to support it. 19 Second, while it is a matter of relative indifference 20 to us, his knowledge, intent and state of mind, and we were 21 content to have that instruction we sought yesterday, if he is 22 not a conspirator, and if as is the case in federal law, 23 somebody has to be Ms. Stewart's conspirator for her to be 24 convicted, then opening up this subject as these documents do 25 gives us a relevant field of inquiry. And the relevant field SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9534 4bnesat2 1 of inquiry would, if these documents come into evidence, be 2 defined by the four corners of these documents as they exist. 3 Now, 706A begins with a -- I don't know if it's a poem 4 or a hymn reminiscent of things that in the Christian church 5 would be called -- thought of as the church militant. However, 6 it also contains an extensive discussion of the trial in Egypt 7 where 192 defendants, including Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, after 8 a trial that took three years, were acquitted. 9 And the government, no doubt, wants to go through and 10 pick out statements by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman that advocated 11 violence or that support the idea of violence or support 12 killing or whatever. But the document taken as a whole places 13 his views in the context of a 30-year long struggle in Egypt; 14 his participation, which led him twice to be acquitted by 15 Egyptian courts, and which involved in that very case a number 16 of ideological positions presented by the IG in the form of 17 evidence in the court, at least according to the document. 18 Now, we don't, I guess, have an objection to opening 19 that door. If, however, the government now takes the position 20 that this is the scope of inquiry, at least as it relates to 21 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind -- that is to 22 say, it's relevant to go back and get his understanding of some 23 historical struggle -- then I have to ask the question: Why is 24 it that Ms. Stewart's exhibits that she had in her office on 25 which she immediately relied upon for her legal work about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9535 4bnesat2 1 historical facts in Egypt, about the reasons why people might 2 want to rise up and oppose the Egyptian government, because it 3 is a repressive and illegitimate government in the view of 4 many, why were all those excluded? Why is the government 5 suddenly saying that Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state 6 of mind can only be understood if we understand the 7 political -- 8 THE COURT: You're talking to me, right? 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, and I'm turning to Mr. Yousry. 10 I'm sorry, your Honor. Did I seem to be doing 11 something else? I apologize to the Court. It was not my 12 intent or desire. I was looking at Mr. Yousry because this is 13 his research. And I never, your Honor -- 14 THE COURT: That's OK. 15 MR. TIGAR: Well, I've been doing -- well -- 16 THE COURT: It's all right. 17 MR. TIGAR: I apologize if that's what I seem to be 18 doing, your Honor, because I don't ever want to be doing that. 19 That's a big no-no in my life. OK. 20 Now, what I'm arguing to your Honor is that the 21 government is taking a position diametrically opposed to that 22 which it took in shutting down the Stewart defense on that 23 issue, or at the very least I've overstated in objecting to 24 those exhibits. 25 THE COURT: That's -- that's really not accurate. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9536 4bnesat2 1 have looked at every argument and every piece of evidence in 2 the context of the arguments being made with respect to that 3 evidence and where that fits into the case. It is not an 4 answer to say, well, if this information goes in for knowledge, 5 intent and state of mind, then any information that could be 6 argued to go to knowledge, intent or state of mind must then 7 come in, irrespective of what the knowledge, intent and state 8 of mind is. 9 If, for example, there is information with respect to 10 Omar Abdel Rahman and his position, his link to violence, 11 that's one set of issues. If the set of issues is alleged 12 human rights abuses in Egypt, his knowledge, intent and state 13 of mind of that, which is not a defense in the case, is that 14 relevant? And the answer to that is no. Does knowledge, 15 intent or state of mind with respect to relevant issues in the 16 case come in? The answer to that is, well, we have to look at 17 what that is. We have to make the necessary 403 analysis and 18 reach a conclusion. 19 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, I -- thank you. 20 THE COURT: So, I have to look at these documents in 21 the context of the issues that have been presented to me in the 22 context of these documents and these arguments. 23 MR. TIGAR: I wish respectfully to take issue with 24 your Honor, or maybe not, but first, the documents that we 25 offered dealt with the Islamic Group and the interplay between SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9537 4bnesat2 1 its actions and the actions of a repressive government. To the 2 extent they did so, and to the extent the government takes the 3 position that there's a substantial identity between the 4 Islamic Group and Omar Abdel Rahman, our position is as before. 5 But more fundamentally, your Honor, the 403 6 determination is always a moving target. And I wasn't 7 attempting to reargue old decisions, but to point out that when 8 the government says, these are the -- these are things we want 9 to open up, that that necessarily in my view causes me to ask 10 what kinds of things we would like to put in if that's going to 11 be the way things are. 12 403, 401, 402 issues are also, we respectfully submit, 13 a moving target because the -- there are times when, if we open 14 this door -- and that's one of the things I was saying. We -- 15 in order to amplify, to complete, to rebut, we necessarily 16 involve ourselves in inquiries that if we can predict that 17 they're ultimately going to waste a jury's time, we might 18 decide not to start down that road. That was the sense in 19 which I was making the points that I made, your Honor. 20 And I do respectfully suggest it is legitimate. I 21 understand that human rights conditions in Egypt are not a 22 defense. On the other hand, an understanding of why Omar Abdel 23 Rahman chose to act in certain ways may make relevant his 24 perception about what happened to him when he was on trial for 25 three years. And Ms. Stewart's perception that there were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9538 4bnesat2 1 human rights issues that legitimately required to be addressed, 2 certainly relevant to her state of mind because she's a lawyer. 3 And human rights are supposed to be relevant to people that do 4 that for a living. 5 But that aside, your Honor, no limiting instruction in 6 our respectful view can save us if we are to now open up the 7 thousands of pages of Mr. Yousry's research into the political 8 history of Egypt for 50 years. If the door is opened, the door 9 is opened. And we'll ask our questions when the time comes and 10 explore the issue. 11 But I respectfully suggest that I support Mr. Ruhnke's 12 view that some guidance, some control over this process is 13 necessary at this point. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, first with respect to 15 Mr. Ruhnke's objections, again, I would note that he opened the 16 door to the dissertation by putting in selective drafts in his 17 case. It appears to me from my review of the documents that 18 Mr. Yousry chose to introduce that those drafts do not 19 constitute the entirety of the dissertation. Rather, they are 20 drafts of parts. And comparison of those documents, for 21 example, to the outline and the proposal would make that clear. 22 It's my understanding, just from looking at all the 23 documents next to each other, that what is essentially -- what 24 was put in evidence in Mr. Yousry's direct testimony was the 25 introduction and the part of the dissertation about Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9539 4bnesat2 1 Abdel Rahman, therefore not including the substance of other 2 parts of the dissertation tracing in more detail the history of 3 the Islamic Group. 4 And so the document that I seek to introduce as 706A 5 bears on some of that subject matter, which is clearly a part 6 of the dissertation but was not covered in what was put in 7 through Mr. Yousry's direct testimony. Again, as to its 8 relevance, 706A addresses among other things the violent nature 9 of the Islamic Group and, therefore, it is highly relevant to 10 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind, particularly 11 as to Counts 4 and 5. 12 As to the date of the document, I suspect, I expect 13 that there is a basis to believe that it was drafted or revised 14 during the time of the conspiracies charged in the indictment. 15 But even were that not the case, even were the testimony to be 16 that it was completely written prior to the charged 17 conspiracies, I respectfully submit that that would not negate 18 its relevance. 19 Obviously a conspirator's knowledge, intent and state 20 of mind prior to entering into the conspiracy, which would 21 factor into his choice to enter into the conspiracies, would be 22 a relevant point. And the nature of the document is such that 23 with a limiting instruction along the lines that the Court has 24 already given, there should not be any Rule 403 issue from 25 Mr. Yousry or from either of the other defendants, particularly SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9540 4bnesat2 1 the other defendants because the Court will be telling the jury 2 that the evidence is admitted only as to Mr. Yousry. 3 Now, as to Mr. Sattar's objection to the document on 4 the basis of the fact that it cites Mr. Sattar as a source, I 5 don't understand the legal point of that, but I would note that 6 the four documents put in during Mr. Yousry's direct testimony, 7 which came in without objection from Mr. Sattar, also cite 8 Mr. Sattar as a source. And obviously communications between 9 people who are alleged to be coconspirators are relevant as to 10 their relationship and interaction and the sharing of knowledge 11 that is relevant to their participation in the conspiracy. So 12 I don't understand the legal basis for the objection. 13 There would not be a hearsay problem, first of all, 14 because Mr. Sattar's statements would be admissions of a 15 defendant; and second of all because the Court is already 16 giving an instruction that the information is not offered 17 essentially for the truth of its substance. 18 Finally, as to the points made by Mr. Tigar, I agree 19 with your Honor's analysis that there are some aspects of 20 knowledge, intent and state of mind that are relevant and 21 others that are not. Undoubtedly Mr. Tigar would view some of 22 the content of this document as addressing the political 23 situation in Egypt, but that is not why the government offers 24 it. 25 Indeed, the government wishes that that content SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9541 4bnesat2 1 weren't in there. But the government seeks to introduce that 2 document because of other relevant content and has to take the 3 evidence as it finds it. But we don't believe that that should 4 be viewed as opening the door to further information that the 5 Court has already ruled to be irrelevant. 6 Mr. Tigar made a point about someone having to be 7 Ms. Stewart's coconspirator if Mr. Yousry is not. I didn't 8 quite understand that point. Obviously we're in the process of 9 trying to prove that Mr. Yousry is Ms. Stewart's coconspirator. 10 That's what we hope the jury will find. 11 Even if Mr. Yousry is not Ms. Stewart's coconspirator, 12 there are other coconspirators alleged, and the jury would be 13 given an instruction that this evidence is admitted only as to 14 Mr. Yousry. And the jury is presumed to follow that 15 instruction. 16 If Mr. Tigar wishes to, he could certainly 17 cross-examine Mr. Yousry and ask Mr. Yousry whether he ever 18 gave this document to Ms. Stewart or told Ms. Stewart any of 19 the information that's in this document. So between the 20 instruction and the availability of cross-examination, I just 21 don't see that there's an issue here as to the other 22 defendants. 23 THE COURT: I have a view. First, no one has 24 addressed at any length Government Exhibit 727. But I've read 25 Government Exhibit 727, and it is clear that Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9542 4bnesat2 1 Exhibit 727 would be admissible subject to the limiting 2 instruction that I gave earlier. The reason that 727 is 3 plainly admissible is prior statements by Mr. Yousry at an 4 early point in his dissertation, his proposal, probably in 5 1998, giving his knowledge, intent and state of mind after 6 extensive work himself, and it casts some of the -- could be 7 read to cast some of the testimony that was proffered on direct 8 in certainly a different light, and gives his alleged 9 knowledge, intent and state of mind with respect to Sheikh 10 Rahman and the Islamic Group. 11 I won't go through the document to allow all of the 12 statements, but they are -- they differ to some degree from 13 some of the things that the witness testified about on direct. 14 Having opened the area on direct with respect to the thesis and 15 the witness' knowledge, intent and state of mind, with respect 16 to the subject of the thesis, particularly Omar Abdel Rahman 17 and the Islamic Group, the proposal for the thesis before it 18 has been revised would plainly be relevant. And the relevance 19 is not outweighed by any danger of unfair prejudice, and the 20 limiting instruction is eminently able to be followed with 21 respect to Government Exhibit 727. 22 With respect to Government Exhibit 706A, I haven't -- 23 this has only been handed up -- I haven't had the opportunity 24 to review the entire exhibit. It does appear to me to raise a 25 question as to why the entire exhibit would have to be admitted SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9543 4bnesat2 1 in evidence simply because it is part of a piece that was 2 previously written by the defendant. 3 When the defendant proffered a book from which a 4 chapter was taken, admittedly not knowing that the defendant 5 had authored but an entire book, the solution reasonably was 6 that the chapter that the defendant sought to admit was 7 admitted. The rest of the book was not admitted, but the table 8 of contents was. 9 And the parties can -- and that's also consistent on 10 another level with respect to the way in which learned 11 treatises would be handled. I appreciate that the learned 12 treatise issue is one that's raised as an exception to the 13 hearsay rule. We're not dealing with the hearsay rule. This 14 is prior statement by a party opponent. But an entire treatise 15 wouldn't go in. The sections that are relevant and brought to 16 the witness' attention would be read to the jury. 17 In this case there's an entire chapter that the 18 parties haven't reviewed, many of the parties have not reviewed 19 in some time, if at all. And I don't understand why the 20 examination with respect to 706A could not be conducted in a 21 way that simply cuts through the objections. 22 If the purpose of 706A is to say that this witness had 23 knowledge of certain relevant issues in the case, the witness 24 could certainly be presented with the document and asked 25 whether he wrote it, when he wrote it and was he aware of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9544 4bnesat2 1 specific things in the document; not an entire document of 54 2 pages. 3 When issues have come up with respect to documents 4 otherwise admissible, I've gone with great care through the 5 documents excising individual passages that reasonable 403 6 objections could be raised to. Now I'm presented with an 7 entire document, 706A, and simply because the witness wrote it 8 without giving any analysis of the 403 arguments with respect 9 to everything that's contained in the document, I'm asked to 10 make a 403 analysis without any arguments by the parties, who 11 really haven't had a recent opportunity to review the document. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm amenable to proceeding as 13 your Honor suggested. I am not so interested in the document 14 as a physical object. I'm interested in the fact that the 15 document reflects knowledge of particular facts on the part -- 16 or what Mr. Yousry believed to be facts, knowledge on his part. 17 And I am perfectly agreeable to making use of the 18 document by showing it to him, by asking him essentially if he 19 knew certain facts, and if he doesn't agree with me, by reading 20 him the relevant portions of the document without moving the 21 entire document into evidence. 22 THE COURT: I don't understand why that -- I don't 23 understand why that isn't reasonable, particularly when two 24 chapters of the thesis went in and when it's certainly a 25 relevant inquiry whether the witness was aware of certain SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9545 4bnesat2 1 things and either put them in or didn't put them in. And the 2 drafts of the dissertation are there already. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the objection stands on 4 relevance grounds, and I gather your Honor is overruling that 5 objection. 6 A lot of these -- the difficulty with these materials 7 is they're the equivalent of rough notes. A lot of the 8 materials that are in here are simply copying down source 9 information that are not Mr. Yousry's words at all. And if 10 Ms. Baker wants to go down that road and ask, are these your 11 words or are those somebody else's words that you wrote down to 12 use parts of the research, we're going to get into a -- you 13 know, a real side-tracking discussion. And, I mean, if you 14 even have a chance, which I've just had now, to glance through 15 that, you can see that that's so. 16 A lot of this is just material that Mr. Yousry's 17 copied down as notes, thoughts, attempts; am I going to use 18 this in my dissertation, am I not going to use it? The first 19 item on page one is a quote he typed out from a videotape dated 20 April 1991 as something he might use later on. The thought 21 that these represent his views is really misleading. 22 And, you know, Mr. Yousry knows what his views are and 23 he knows what in here were not his views but were things he'd 24 written down from other people. And this was never intended -- 25 if he had ever been asked, were you ever going to show this to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9546 4bnesat2 1 someone or submit this as a work, or did you set this up in a 2 way so that your thoughts are clearly delineated from other 3 people, he'll say no. These are notes. These are rough notes 4 and outlines that I prepared along the way. Some of the stuff 5 I used, some of the stuff I discarded, some of the stuff I 6 rethought. 7 And it's just -- on a 403 basis, we're about to engage 8 in a 54-page -- very, very difficult area to make any sense out 9 of. And it's going to engender a very similarly difficult 10 redirect examination with thousands of pages of documents, of 11 thoughts, ideas, research, things that were in, things that 12 were out; suggestions and directions from his academic advisors 13 as to, no, drop that area; don't include it later on in the 14 dissertation. And it's going to lead a misleading, unfair 15 impression, the way the government proposes to proceed. So I 16 do object to it. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government's focus in 18 this line of questioning is not what the final product of 19 Mr. Yousry's dissertation was going to look like. The focus of 20 the government's questioning is what information was in 21 Mr. Yousry's possession at the time he engaged in the conduct 22 with which he is charged. 23 And Mr. Ruhnke may do whatever he wishes to do on 24 redirect examination, but to the extent that this document 25 evidences that Mr. Yousry had certain information, that it came SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9547 4bnesat2 1 to him and that he processed it in some form as evidenced by 2 the fact that it ended up in this document is the basis for the 3 relevance. 4 And knowledge, intent and state of mind are central 5 issues in this case. So this evidence is highly probative, and 6 there is no outweighing of that high level of probativeness by 7 prejudice. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I mean, that's entirely legitimate. I 9 concede that that's entirely legitimate. If the purpose of 10 this is to say Mr. Yousry knew that the Sheikh was a man who 11 long advocated terroristic violence, he's testified to that. 12 So -- if the point is not to what he wrote in drafts but the 13 information that he had available to him, then I agree with 14 that as being legitimate. That's not what I heard the 15 government offer initially. 16 But if their point is, did you know that this 17 videotape existed, did you know if this sermon was given, 18 assuming that somewhere in there there is actually a sermon, I 19 concede that's legitimate. So maybe it's a storm in a coffee 20 cup. 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the one thing I have not heard 22 an answer to is when I look at 706A, I don't see a single -- 23 and maybe I'm wrong -- I don't see any acts here that took 24 place, any conduct after about 1990. And the majority of this 25 is directed to a period, '77 to '81. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9548 4bnesat2 1 And so even with respect to the proffered purpose, and 2 that is to say Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind 3 with respect to information about Sheikh Abdel Rahman, the 4 question of remoteness does arise. People change. Their 5 behavior is influenced by context. 6 And while 727 does relate to events when Sheikh Rahman 7 came to the United States and so on, 706A does not appear to 8 contain any such references. And rather than interrupt the 9 examination with objections, I respectfully submit there may be 10 some guidance on that, because the Court's decision as to the 11 recency or remoteness of information is one that may have some 12 influence on the jury, not just with respect to this, but with 13 respect to other things as well. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 706A also 15 contains information relating to the time period between 1990 16 and 1995. Mr. Yousry has already testified that his plan with 17 respect to his dissertation was that it was only going to cover 18 until 1995. So that is the latest date that is addressed. But 19 there is information, as I said, between 1990 and 1995. 20 However, the government submits that information with 21 respect to the Islamic Group's history of violence even prior 22 to 1990 is relevant because, again, essentially this case is 23 about conspiring with the Islamic Group; making Abdel Rahman a 24 leader of the group available as personnel to a segment of the 25 group who had a particular agenda. And, therefore, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9549 4bnesat2 1 Mr. Yousry's knowledge of that group's history of violence is 2 relevant as well. 3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I stand corrected. There's 4 half a page on the period -- well, actually, it's one paragraph 5 in the period 1995 to the present. And it says that the 6 movement acknowledged it couldn't win an armed struggle and it 7 de-escalated tactics. 8 THE COURT: What Mr. Yousry said, or rather what 9 Mr. Ruhnke said on behalf of Mr. Yousry, was that there -- at 10 least as I understand it, there may not be an issue if what the 11 government seeks to do is to ask Mr. Yousry about his awareness 12 or his knowledge, intent or state of mind of certain source 13 materials or source facts, rather than the way in which he 14 processed that in his early draft. Is that -- 15 MR. RUHNKE: That's right, your Honor, yes. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my focus is on information 17 that was known to Mr. Yousry. I would like to inquire, I 18 believe it bears on the extent of his knowledge or state of 19 mind, the fact that he put that information into a document 20 that was related to his process of preparing his dissertation. 21 I -- the document itself is obviously a rough draft. I don't 22 intend to quarrel with that. But it's a document that he 23 created as part of his work on his dissertation. And, of 24 course, I wish to elicit that point in addition to the 25 substance of the information itself. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9550 4bnesat2 1 In other words, this is not just something that 2 someone handed to him; he selected the information from 3 somewhere and put it in there. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm hearing the government 5 attempt to draw a distinction that I don't quite understand, 6 but it sounds like it's a prelude to something else. And 7 what -- if the government proposes to say, Mr. Yousry, were you 8 aware that the Islamic Group made these kinds of statements to 9 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, gave these kinds of sermons and that 10 the Islamic Group carried out these kinds of activities, of 11 course he's going to say yes, I was aware, assuming that it's 12 an accurate question. 13 If the question then sort of morphs or spills over 14 into, and so when you wrote your dissertation draft in 19 15 whenever -- because we don't know -- that the group is X, Y, Z, 16 I don't think that's consistent with the limitation that I have 17 kind of agreed to. 18 I mean, I hear the government saying yes, they're 19 primarily interested in the information that was available to 20 him, but uncomfortable in committing to your Honor that that's 21 all they're really going to ask about. That raises a certain 22 discomfort level on my part. 23 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I guess I'm asking the Court 25 not to tie my hands, in the event that the examination doesn't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9551 4bnesat2 1 go the way Mr. Yousry -- Mr. Ruhnke suggests it might. 2 If I ask Mr. Yousry, didn't you know X or weren't you 3 aware Y, if every question gets a yes answer, then it is not 4 necessary to explore the document, the nature of the document. 5 But in the event that every question doesn't get a yes answer, 6 I need a little leeway to establish that the information which 7 is the basis for my question appears in a document that he 8 created as part of the process of working on his dissertation. 9 MR. RUHNKE: If Mr. Yousry denies that he knew 10 something, and it is in this collection of raw research, which 11 is really what it is, then if he says, no, I wasn't aware of 12 that, then it's legitimate for Ms. Baker, I would think, to 13 show it to him, see if that refreshes his recollection as to 14 whether he did know that. Or if he says, I don't remember if I 15 knew that, I knew a lot of things but I don't remember 16 everything I wrote down ten years ago. 17 So, I think we have an understanding, but I'm not sure 18 how it's going to work out in practice. But I guess, like all 19 questions in practice, we'll have to see. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar? 21 MR. TIGAR: I would respectfully request a continuing 22 objection to any inquiry into events prior to the calendar year 23 1990, as they may have -- with respect to this subject matter 24 of political and social events in Egypt. 25 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9552 4bnesat2 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, for the reason that I stated 2 earlier, we submit that that information is relevant to 3 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. The Islamic 4 Group has a history of violence that goes back prior to 1990. 5 Some of the people involved in the group, including Abdel 6 Rahman, were involved in that history of violence prior to 1990 7 and, therefore, that information is relevant. 8 THE COURT: There's a fair 403 limitation. Of course, 9 Mr. Yousry put in two parts of his dissertation, which go back 10 prior to 1990, and so -- and that was unobjected to and part of 11 the direct. 12 So, some information, particularly as it links to 13 specific people, I don't, for example, know to what degree 706A 14 deals with Mr. Taha. And so I'm assuming some inquiry, having 15 opened it up on direct, would be permissible, but my view is 16 not a lot. I mean, they're -- 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if I might address that point 18 a little bit further. 19 It is Mr. Yousry's own view, as reflected in these 20 dissertation related documents, that there was less violent 21 activity able to be carried out by the Islamic Group after 1990 22 because of activity on the part of the Egyptian government 23 against the group; essentially, I'm not sure this would be 24 Mr. Yousry's word, but to a large extent the group had been 25 defeated or pushed back by the Egyptian government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9553 4bnesat2 1 And so it's the government's view that, therefore, 2 there should be some leeway as to the earlier conduct, because 3 that demonstrates the views of the group, the proclivity of the 4 group and the fact that there was a smaller amount of conduct 5 later was because of external circumstances acting on the 6 group. 7 Again, this is all to the extent of Mr. Yousry's 8 knowledge, intent and state of mind. I'm not offering it as 9 historical fact, but it's relevant to him from his perspective 10 that the violence occurred earlier, essentially because it 11 wasn't able to a certain extent to occur later. 12 THE COURT: It still doesn't change the 403 balancing 13 analysis, particularly since there are, as reflected in the 14 exhibits introduced for Mr. Sattar's state of mind, specific 15 incidents which are discussed, particularly since there's 16 Luxor, subsequently. And it's possible to explore with 17 Mr. Yousry his knowledge, intent and state of mind as to the 18 views of violence and the suppression of violence without a 19 lengthy presentation of events remote in time. 20 And, indeed, I sustained in the course of the 21 government's direct case some objections with respect to 22 remoteness. And so the 403 analysis really is correct. Some 23 testimony but not a lot, if it's relevant to the violence as 24 reflected in the subsequent period. If, in fact, as the 25 government says, it's the defendant's view that the violence is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9554 4bnesat2 1 suppressed for a period of time, the question is, what is the 2 violence that's being suppressed for a period of time? 3 But the further back we go, and certainly before 1990, 4 the less relevance there is. And with the amount of materials 5 in the case, the historical explorations become both less 6 relevant, more likely to waste time, so that the 403 balancing 7 begins to tip against admissibility beyond -- if there is too 8 extensive an examination. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, so that I don't make speaking 10 objections in the presence of the jury, I will object to 11 questions that attempt to establish what the prosecutor just 12 said was the proclivity of the group. I'll object to questions 13 like that, because proclivity is specifically prohibited by 14 404(b). 15 And I will also object to questions that ask the views 16 of IG; that is, that attempt to attribute views to this thing, 17 the existence of which is not an element of any of the 18 offenses. And without going into all of the reasons why I 19 would object to that, my objection will be in the form, object 20 to the form of the question or relevance, something like that; 21 not to suggest or make a speaking objection, but that's what I 22 would be doing. I'm not anticipating that the prosecutor will 23 do anything like that, but I just want to let the Court know 24 that that's what I will be trying to convey so we don't 25 interrupt the flow. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9555 4bnesat2 1 THE COURT: OK. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, it is relevant to the conduct 3 with which Mr. Yousry is charged what he thought were the views 4 of the group. He writes about the group collectively in many 5 instances. And, you know, I'm not using his exact words, but 6 in substance, he is talking about the beliefs or views or 7 agenda of the group in his writing. 8 And if your Honor wishes me to phrase those questions 9 by saying "you thought that" or "you knew that" or "you 10 believed that IG thought or believed or had the view," I am 11 certainly amenable to doing that. But I don't believe that I 12 should be precluded from questions that bear on Mr. Yousry's 13 state of mind as to what the group was about. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9556 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I will make my objections when they come. 2 I will signal, your Honor, that in 706A -- I could find the 3 page but I don't see the reason to do so now -- Mr. Yousry 4 notes that the group split in 1984. 5 So, that's what happens with all of these political 6 groups and that's the reason the Supreme Court has said what it 7 has said about it. Ascribing personality to it is problematic 8 and I can't predict what the questions are. But if I make an 9 objection, it will be based on that information or that 10 argument that we presented to the Court before. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 Are we ready to bring in the jury? 13 MR. TIGAR: Yes. We request, your Honor, that you 14 give the instruction then if you are going to admit 727A -- 15 THE COURT: 727 you mean? 16 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. 727. Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 MS. BAKER: Actually, your Honor, given the amount of 19 time that has gone by, if we could have three minutes before 20 the jury comes back in, I would appreciate it. 21 THE COURT: Sure. Can I talk to the lawyers at the 22 side bar for just a moment? 23 (Page 9557 was sealed by Order of the Court) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9558 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court) 2 (Recess) 3 MR. RUHNKE: May Mr. Yousry get back on the stand, 4 your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 6 Let's bring in the jury. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, shall I begin by re-offering 8 the exhibit or does your Honor want to rule on the offer that I 9 think I made previously? 10 THE COURT: You can re-offer Government Exhibit 727. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9559 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government offers 10 Government Exhibit 727. 11 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 727 is 12 admitted in evidence. 13 (Government's Exhibit 727 received in evidence) 14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is 15 subject to the same limiting instruction that I had given you 16 about the testimony about, from Mr. Yousry about conclusions 17 that he reached in his research. This document is offered only 18 with respect to Mr. Yousry and only as to his knowledge, intent 19 and state of mind, and not for the truth of any of the 20 historical events described. 21 All right? 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display the first page 23 of Government Exhibit 727 to the jury? 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MS. BAKER:: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9560 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. If would you enlarge the text, please? 2 Mr. Yousry, the first page of Government Exhibit 727, 3 that's a cover letter that you wrote, correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. And it's addressed to Professor Lockman? 6 A. That is correct, yes. 7 Q. He was your dissertation advisor at NYU, correct? 8 A. He still is, yes. 9 Q. Now, with this letter you enclosed and sent, to Professor 10 Lockman, three documents relating to your dissertation, 11 correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And those documents were an outline, a proposal and a 14 bibliography, is that right? 15 A. That is -- that is right, yes. 16 Q. Let me direct your attention, first -- withdrawn. Sorry. 17 Directing your attention to the cover letter above the 18 name Professor Lockman, it gives a date of April 19th of 1998, 19 correct? 20 A. That's correct, yes. 21 Q. And so, that's when you sent these dissertation-related 22 materials to Professor Lockman, correct? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would put up the third page of the 25 document? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9561 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Mr. Yousry, if you are looking at hard copy I am going 2 to refer by the page numbers in the upper right hand corner, so 3 this is 0048. 4 What I am showing you here now is part of the outline 5 of your dissertation, is that right? 6 A. Part of the outline of the proposal at that time, yes. 7 Q. And the way you were proposing your dissertation to be 8 structured at the time, it was to be broken into three parts, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And shown on the page that's on the screen now, the page 12 with the number 0048, that relates to the first part -- what 13 was to be the first part of the dissertation, is that right? 14 A. Yes, it does. You're right. 15 Q. And that was to address the time period between 1965 and 16 1977, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 The conflict between the government in place and the 19 social movement at that time, the Muslim social movement at 20 that time. 21 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would display the next page of the 22 document; Mr. Yousry, it is the one marked 0048 in the upper 23 right-hand corner enlarging the top part of the page -- this 24 relates to what was to be the second part of the dissertation, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9562 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, correct. 2 However, the second part was discontinued or 3 discounted. In about March of 2000 Professor Lockman advised 4 me that the main figure should be Omar Abdel Rahman and every 5 other information about the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya should be in 6 the background. In other words, he would be the main focus and 7 the group would be the secondary focus. 8 So, this was advised later on. 9 Q. But, as of April of 1998 when you submitted this outline 10 and other documents to Professor Lockman your intention was, or 11 your plan was that the second of the three parts of the 12 dissertation was to address the history of Al-Gama'a 13 al-Islamiyya between 1977 and 1995? 14 A. That is correct, yes. 15 Q. As I may have already asked you, by the time you submitted 16 this set of documents -- the proposal and the outline -- you 17 had already done a fair amount of research in connection with 18 your dissertation, correct? 19 A. Yes, absolutely. 20 It was -- a lot of the research I did was through my 21 job actually as a translator working on that case, so I had 22 access to a lot of material -- videotapes, audio tapes, 23 newspaper articles, books. Stuff that was seized in England, 24 Denmark. Everything that was presented in the Sheikh's case 25 had access to, so yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9563 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. We are going to talk more about that material in a little 2 while, but for now let's continue to focus on this proposal for 3 your dissertation. 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. So now, in the second part you were planning to address the 6 Islamic Group during the time period 1977 through 1995, 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. However, I turned out to be wrong. The movement 9 actually started a little bit earlier than '77, it was in '68. 10 So -- but that's a minor point. 11 Q. Focusing in the middle of this page there is -- well, 12 withdrawn. 13 Before I ask you that, this second part of the 14 dissertation about the Islamic Group was to be further broken 15 down, at least as you were planning it in April 1998, further 16 broken down into four sections, correct? 17 A. That was -- yes. That was the plan, yes. 18 Q. And each section covered a subset of years within that 19 broader period of 1977 to 1995, correct? 20 A. That is correct. Some do, some don't. You know, some 21 sections just cover ideas, questions that they were thinking 22 of. Things of this nature. 23 Q. As you expressed it in your outline in April of 1998, the 24 first section -- directing your attention to what's on the top 25 of the screen -- the first section was going to address what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9564 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 you called the formative years of 1977 to 1981, correct? 2 A. That is correct. Yes. 3 Q. And directing your attention to item B under that 4 subsection, the fourth line under item B, you describe part of 5 the subject that you were going to address there as the 6 establishment of a new militant Muslim group Al-Gama'a 7 al-Islamiyya, correct? 8 A. Yes. Actually, the question was whether or not Al-Gama'a 9 al-Islamiyya was a part of the previous movement that was 10 defeated in 1965. 11 It is an academic question that we had to answer that 12 he had links. As it turned out, according to my research, they 13 did not have links, so. 14 Q. Nonetheless, Al-Gama'a was formed during this period of 15 time and, in your view, it was formed as a militant group, 16 correct? 17 A. They were formed in 1968 as separate cells who believed 18 that armed struggle, from their perspective, against the 19 government, in order to be able to establish a Muslim state. 20 And they were very small in numbers, very secretive and they 21 just became a much larger movement in the mid-'70s after they 22 aligned themselves with the president, President Sadat. 23 Q. Now, when you say after they -- I'm sorry, did you say 24 aligned themselves? 25 A. Yes. They formed a partnership in order to defeat the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9565 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 nationalist movement in Egypt in 1978. 2 Q. But then there came a time later when they came to oppose 3 President Sadat and, in fact, assassinated him? 4 A. Absolutely, yes. 5 They felt -- they felt that he cheated them or lied to 6 them. That was their own interpretation, so. 7 Q. Now, continuing down to the lower portion of the page 8 that's on the screen right now, we see the heading for what was 9 going to be the second section of this second part of your 10 dissertation and you describe this second section as the prison 11 years, and it related to the time period between 1981 and 1984, 12 correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. And was that a reference to the fact that there were 15 leaders of the Islamic Group who were in prison during that 16 period of time? 17 A. Well, I believe about 7,000 people were in prison at the 18 time. Most of the leadership of that movement were arrested 19 after the assassination of President Sadat. They were all put 20 on trial and most of them were acquitted in 1984. 21 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show the next page, please. And 22 Mr. Yousry, that's the page numbered 0050 in the upper 23 right-hand corner. 24 At the top of this page we see the third section of 25 the second part of your dissertation, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9566 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. That is correct. 2 Q. And you describe that section as the golden years, 1984 to 3 1991, correct? 4 A. That is correct. Yes. 5 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would scroll down, please -- starting 6 in the middle of that same page we see the fourth section, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes, I do see that. 9 Q. And that section you described as armed confrontation and 10 defeat, and it related to 1991 to 1995, correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 There was a covenant between them and the government. 13 The government told them we will let you out of jail, no 14 militant action against the government. They agreed to that. 15 They started to preach all over the country. They became very 16 popular among the poor peasants and poor workers and they posed 17 a threat to the government and the government, at that 18 moment -- as it said here -- a policy of physical elimination. 19 And, basically, they started a military confrontation where the 20 movement was defeated and basically lost its popular support, 21 lost its leadership. 22 Basically, it came to a stage where I would describe 23 it as nonexistent in '95. 24 Q. That was the time period 1991 to 1995 you were just 25 discussing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9567 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And within this outline for your dissertation, you 3 described that period of time in item B as four years of 4 terror, correct? 5 A. Yes, correct. Absolutely. 6 They carried out several acts of terrorism against 7 civilians. They carried out several acts of terrorism against 8 government officials. They were retaliating against the 9 government assassination by assassinating government officials. 10 It was very bloody. 11 Q. As you sort of summarized the subject matter that would 12 fall under that heading, you described it as national armed 13 conflict attacking vital government interests and attacking 14 tourism? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show, please, the next page; 17 Mr. Yousry, it is the page marked 0051, this page reflects what 18 is to be the third of the three parts of your dissertation, the 19 part focusing on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, in addition to submitting an outline for the 22 dissertation, you also submitted a proposal, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And would it be fair to say that the proposal was 25 essentially text that provided a preview or a summary of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9568 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 kinds of information that would be in the dissertation? 2 A. Not really. 3 It's basically a proposal to pose a question and just 4 tell the committee who is going to review that proposal, this 5 is the question that I'm looking at. These are the current 6 scholarships and these are the ideas and dominant knowledge in 7 the field, currently, regarding this particular question, and 8 that is how I'm going to try to look at it. 9 So, it's a methodology, more or less. 10 And then you provide them with the bibliography and 11 all the available material you have. 12 Q. In the proposal, were you essentially trying to establish 13 why your dissertation that you were proposing to write would 14 contribute something new to the field of study in this area? 15 A. Yes. That's the question, yes. 16 Basically the field at the time had two dominant views 17 and the first view was Muslim movements present and 18 alternative. And the second was the Muslim movement is against 19 modernity. It's something that's coming out of the past. 20 I proposed that it is a modern movement because it is 21 a product of our modern time and it, too, presents an 22 alternative. It is not the right alternative but, 23 nevertheless, it presents an alternative. 24 So, that was my way of combining the two. 25 Q. So, you were proposing to focus on the Islamic Group and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9569 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman as its leader, and you were 2 attempting, in this proposal, to establish that within a 3 dissertation addressing those subjects, that you were going to 4 provide the world of academia with new information, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Now, if I can direct your attention further back in the 7 document to page 0065; and Ms. Griffith if you could display 8 that page? 9 Is this the cover page of the bibliography that you 10 also enclosed with your letter to Professor Lockman? 11 A. Yes. That was the title at the time. Of course, it 12 changed. It was a working title. 13 Q. What you are referring to is in the middle of the screen, 14 you were saying at the time that was going to be the title of 15 the dissertation? 16 A. Right. I just wanted to give them a hint of what I was 17 going to be discussing. 18 Q. And the function of the bibliography was essentially to 19 identify the source materials on which you expected to rely in 20 writing the dissertation, correct? 21 A. More than that. Actually, it was providing them with the 22 primary sources that I had access to, because research has to 23 be done from a primary source. And since the central figure of 24 the research was still alive, it was very important for me to 25 show them that I had most of his speeches, most of his work, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9570 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 most of his writing, in its primary state. 2 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would turn to the next page, please, 3 the page marked 0066 in the upper right-hand corner. 4 Mr. Yousry, if you would please refer to the paper 5 copy of the document in front of you? It's true, is it not, 6 that the bibliography was about 13 pages long? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. What is shown on the screen now is the top half of the 9 first page of the list of materials, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. Now, by the time you submitted this bibliography and the 12 accompanying outline and proposal to Dr. Lockman, you had 13 already reviewed the various materials that are listed in your 14 bibliography, correct? 15 A. That is correct. Yes. 16 Q. Now, as you have already testified, you, as you have 17 already testified at this trial, you had previously testified 18 at Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's trial back in July of 1995, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, I did. I testified as an expert witness for the 21 linguistic matters for several defendants. Yes. 22 Q. Now, as part of your work for that trial in which you 23 testified in 1995, you participated in translating various 24 materials, correct? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9571 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. You also participated in summarizing various materials, 2 correct? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 Q. And, as part of your work up to that point in time when you 5 testified, the materials that you had read or listened to, for 6 purposes of translating or summarizing, included about 50 7 videotapes of Sheikh Abdel Rahman that had been seized in 8 Denmark, correct? 9 A. Maybe more. I'm not really sure but, yes. Yes. 10 Q. A large number? 11 A. A large number -- sermons, lectures, radio interviews, TV 12 interviews, lectures in parks, gatherings in schools. Yes. 13 Q. You had also reviewed, as part of your work leading up to 14 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial, a number of recordings of calls 15 that were intercepted on his telephone, correct? 16 A. His telephone here in the United States? 17 Q. Correct. 18 A. Yes, correct. 19 Q. You had also reviewed either, on paper or in recorded form, 20 speeches that he had given? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And some of those included question and answer periods that 23 he engaged in? 24 A. I would say about 60 percent of them included questions and 25 answers, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9572 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. So, in total, you had reviewed already, by July of 1995, a 2 very significant quantity of material relating to Sheikh Omar 3 Abdel Rahman, correct? 4 A. I did so in my capacity as a translator at the time. 5 Before I turned it into a project, yes. 6 Q. But then later, when you began to pursue this dissertation, 7 you were able to utilize these materials that you already had 8 reviewed and were familiar with? 9 A. Well, luckily enough, I kept all of that because I was 10 working on the appeal, so I still had access to everything. 11 Yes. 12 Q. And in this bibliography, which is part of Government 13 Exhibit 727, you have listed many of those materials, many 14 materials that you had already had experience with from working 15 on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's trial, correct? 16 A. Yes. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. And is it fair to say, without taking the time to show the 18 jury every page -- is it fair to say that the bibliography 19 essentially itemizes these categories of materials, in other 20 words it lists tapes individually and books individually and so 21 on? 22 A. Yes, it does. 23 Q. So, it's fair to say, is it not, that your knowledge about 24 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and the Islamic Group, comes from a 25 variety of sources? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9573 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. Yes. 2 I prefer to read the primary sources but I was, at 3 some point collecting other sources -- newspaper articles, 4 other books written about the same topic so, yes. But most of 5 the stuff I had was primary sources. 6 Q. Just to be clear, when you say primary sources, you mean 7 the actual words of the people at issue? 8 A. Well, the actual writings, the actual speeches, the actual 9 opinions, the actual memories. That doesn't necessarily mean 10 that everything he said is right, it is just that you have to 11 have access to that stuff in order to be able to study it, put 12 it in context and form an opinion about it. 13 Q. Is it fair to say that if you are writing about a person 14 for academic purposes, that the source material is viewed as 15 better quality if it is more primary as opposed to second-hand 16 information? 17 A. Yes. Primary sources are the sources if you are writing a 18 biography, yes. 19 Q. Now, in addition to some of the materials that you have 20 already mentioned that you reviewed or relied upon, did you 21 also review and use, as a source, the unpublished dissertation 22 of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 23 A. It's over 1,200 pages. I don't know if it is proper to say 24 that, but Judge Mukasey did not order the translation of that, 25 he just ordered us to summarize it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9574 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 So, I was one of the team summarizing that; yes. 2 Q. You have reviewed it and you viewed it as a source 3 material? 4 A. Yes, of course. Yes. Later on though, yes. 5 Q. And you also, when you were addressing the Islamic Group in 6 your dissertation as opposed to Abdel Rahman as an individual, 7 you were relying on a variety of materials put out by the 8 Islamic Group, is that fair to say? 9 A. Yes. All of them were collected and handed into the 10 defense in the trial. Yes. 11 Q. And those Islamic Group materials included the material 12 from the internet, is that right? 13 A. Some of that stuff was given to me from the internet, yes. 14 Q. And also audio and videotapes, correct? 15 A. Yes, sure. 16 Q. And some books? 17 A. I believe maybe six or seven books. Yes. 18 Q. Now, in the drafts of your dissertation that had been 19 introduced into evidence, there are quite a number of 20 footnotes, correct? 21 A. I'm not sure. Are you saying the -- I'm confused, I just 22 want to understand, are you referring to this or the one that 23 Mr. Ruhnke put in? 24 Q. The ones that Mr. Ruhnke showed you. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9575 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. The ones marked MY-550LT-1 through MY-550LT-4? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. There are a number of notes in those documents? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the kinds of materials that you and I have been 6 discussing, those materials are cited in your various footnotes 7 and dissertation drafts? 8 A. Correct. 9 When you cite a source you have to go through a 10 process to verify whether or not that person who said that at 11 the time was saying it to local audience, some other kind of 12 audience, why did he or she say that. So, some of the citings 13 later on were discarded by me because I didn't think they were 14 reliable. 15 But that's correct, yes. 16 Q. Let me try my question in a different way. 17 My purpose in asking was, is it fair to say that a 18 function of a footnote in a dissertation is to indicate the 19 source from which you were obtaining the material in the main 20 text? 21 A. Yes, correct. 22 Q. Turning back for a minute to Government Exhibit -- sorry -- 23 Exhibit 550LT-4, one of the draft portions of your 24 dissertation. I was asking you earlier this morning about the 25 dates on which you had worked on the drafts and you said that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9576 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 you thought that you had initially drafted 550LT-4 in 1999 to 2 early 2000 but then had revised part of it later on. 3 Was that your testimony? 4 A. That is correct, yes. I believe I had the first draft in 5 January of 2000, if I'm not mistaken, took about a couple of 6 months to come back from the committee. I had four people, 7 four professors reading that. I also showed that particular 8 draft to Mr. Ramsey Clark in order to get his clearance on 9 footnotes and things that the Sheikh said. 10 So, it took about three months or four months for that 11 stuff to come back to me. 12 And then I started a process of revision. 13 Q. Just to focus on the issue of what got written when, 14 though; you estimated this morning that you had, in the later 15 period of time, revised the first 30 to 35 pages of the 16 document however the document in total is only 32 pages. 17 Can you describe, just by subject matter, which parts 18 you were revising later? 19 A. I was revising the part that dealt with the life of Omar 20 Abdel Rahman. 21 For instance, when you write a biography you get a 22 skeleton and once you have the basic dates down, then you start 23 to fill in the gaps and fill in the story. Of course, some of 24 the basic facts that I had turned out to either be wrong or, 25 you know, somebody recollected something that was not true, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9577 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 sometimes it was just plain self-serving. 2 For instance, the fact that he was named Omar, in 3 itself, he wanted to make it look like his parents saw in him 4 something that reminded them of one of the successors of the 5 prophets. And I pursued that and it turned out to be false. 6 So, things of this nature had to be correct and it 7 takes a long time to correct each one, so. 8 Q. So, is it fair to say your focus is primarily on some of 9 the details of his life in Egypt? 10 A. That is probably right, yes. 11 Q. Now, the exhibits that are MY-550LT-1 through MY-550LT-4 12 are not the only documents that you ever wrote as part of your 13 work on your dissertation, correct? 14 A. I collected a lot of material, I took a lot of notes and 15 did a lot of rough notes. I did a lot of rough drafts. Yes, 16 of course. 17 They were, I would say, 800, 900 pages. 18 Q. So, is it fair to say that there is a substantial amount of 19 information that you gathered that you learned over the course 20 of working on your dissertation that isn't contained just in 21 those four documents that are in evidence so far? 22 A. Right. 23 Some -- some parts I decided that I'm not going to 24 use. Other parts my advisor advised me not to use it. Some 25 other stuff I was just trying to find out whether or not I got SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9578 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the story right. 2 Some of the stuff I was just keeping to use later so, 3 yes. 4 Q. Is it fair to say that those four documents that are in 5 evidence are drafts of only what was going to be a portion of 6 the entire dissertation, not the whole thing? 7 A. No. 8 You see, I had originally thought that I would be able 9 to accomplish it the way I intended from the beginning, meaning 10 I would discuss, in detail, the history of Al-Gama'a 11 al-Islamiyya and discussing the details the history of its 12 spiritual leader. 13 As it turned out, it was too much of a project to 14 accomplish because we were over 30 years period. And I was 15 advised by Professor Lockman and Professor Hinkel that I should 16 have Omar Abdel Rahman as the central figure. So -- and the 17 history of political Egypt would be in the background of him, 18 including the movement. 19 So, some parts would be included later. For instance, 20 his life from 1965 to 1995 he had an influence on Al-Gama'a 21 al-Islamiyya. So, basically Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya's history 22 would have been included in this particular period in the 23 background. 24 So, those are the parts that I was trying to integrate 25 in my work, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9579 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And I believe you testified earlier that that narrowing of 2 focus, to focus more tightly on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 3 occurred in March of 2000, is that right? 4 A. Yes. I think it's March of 2000. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. Now, by that point you had already done a substantial 6 amount of research and even some early drafting relating more 7 broadly to the Islamic Group, as you originally intended to 8 write about, correct? 9 A. Yes. I had collected several notes, hundreds of pages, I 10 put it in order trying to figure out what happened when. Tried 11 to make sense of this whole thing as when did they start this, 12 when did they start the peaceful transformation, when did they 13 decide to carry arms. 14 Those are the questions that I tried to find answers 15 to, yes. 16 Q. And so then, from March of 2000 forward you were in the 17 process of reworking the dissertation in light of the advice of 18 your advisor, correct? 19 A. That is absolutely correct, yes. I was trying to get that 20 done as fast as possible but I wasn't able to. I had several 21 other things to do but, yes. 22 Q. I would like to ask you some additional questions about 23 some information that you gathered relating to the Islamic 24 Group. 25 A. Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9580 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, there came a time within the time period 1990 to 1995 2 during which, as I think you said a little while ago, there 3 were assassinations by the Islamic Group of some Egyptian 4 government officials, correct? 5 A. That is correct, yes. 6 Q. And also during that period of time, the leaders of the 7 Islamic Group decided that they would attack Egypt's tourist 8 industry, correct? 9 A. I think it was in 1993 or 1992 that they decided, from 10 their perspective, the government was able to sustain itself 11 because the main source of income was tourism and the income 12 the government collects from the Suez Canal. And I believe 13 they chose tourism from their perspective and they tried to 14 disrupt the tourism industry in Egypt, yes. 15 Q. And, as you understood the group's, motive in doing that 16 was, essentially, to destabilize the government, correct? 17 A. Yes. And to go further, so the government will not be able 18 to keep its obligation with the public, then the public will 19 turn to the movement for help. And of course it didn't work 20 because the public did not really support that particular 21 movement. 22 Q. Before I ask you a few more questions about that time 23 period let me back up for a moment. 24 You testified yesterday that the Islamic Group 25 assassinated former Egyptian President Sadat, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9581 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, they did. 2 Q. As you learned in your research, that action on their part 3 was part of a larger set of actions that they carried out at 4 that time, correct? 5 A. Of course, yes. 6 Q. And, in addition to assassinating President Sadat, they 7 also attacked certain media and ministerial posts in Cairo, 8 correct? 9 A. Absolutely. Actually they had a plan. Believe it or not 10 it was devised to emulate the plan that the Egyptian officers 11 carried out in 1952 to topple the king. So they tried to do 12 something similar, even though they claim that the 1952 13 revolution was a product of a conspiracy with the United States 14 government. They tried to do the same. 15 They basically tried to assassinate the president in 16 charge, take over the media centers, take over some parts of 17 the country basically in the south where the government is not 18 able to represent it, and they failed. 19 Q. But they did, as part of that attempt, control for a period 20 of time, the province of Asyout, correct? 21 A. They did. They did. 22 And the government had to bring in heavy artilleries 23 and I think the fight took about four or five days in order for 24 the government to go in, if memory serves me right. 25 Q. And, is it fair to say that something in excess of a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9582 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 hundred police officers were killed in the fighting that 2 followed? 3 A. I think so. Yes, I do. Yes. 4 Q. Now, turning back to the 1990 to 1995 time period, one of 5 the acts of the Islamic Group during that period of time was 6 the assassination of Rifa't Al-Magud, correct? 7 A. Yes. The speaker of the Egyptian parliament. They killed 8 him by mistake. 9 Q. I'm sorry? 10 A. They killed him by mistake. 11 They were going for someone else and it just happened 12 this his car, I believe was scheduled to leave at 10:15 or 13 something, and he left earlier. Something like that. Yes. 14 Q. In fact, as you understood it, they were targeting a 15 different Egyptian government official? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, is it fair to say that in the period of several years 18 leading up to and including 1990, one of the targets of the 19 Islamic Group was police officers? They would attack police 20 officers when they could? 21 A. Well, according to my research there was a split in the 22 movement with that respect for killing police officers in the 23 '90s. 24 There was, if I recall, a call to try to bring the 25 police officers to join that movement instead of fighting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9583 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 against it. So, there were several attempts to bring in police 2 officers to fight alongside the movement. However, the 3 leadership, I think -- I can't recall -- decided against that 4 and they started to assassinate police officers. 5 Q. Now, moving forward in time -- withdrawn. 6 Before I do that, I think we have already established 7 your dissertation was intended to cover the time period that 8 ended in 1995, correct? 9 A. Yes. The choice either was 1990 where the Sheikh left the 10 country or 1995 after he was convicted. 11 So, from 1990 to 1995 basically was added at the end 12 just to put a closure to it. It wasn't to be covered 13 intensively though. 14 Q. Now, notwithstanding the fact that your dissertation was 15 only going to cover until 1995, you continued to learn some 16 additional information about the Islamic Group in the years 17 that followed 1995, correct? 18 A. Yes, sure. I was working on the case, I was reading 19 newspapers, I watched news and that's about it. Yes. 20 So, I learned from various sources. The media 21 basically. 22 Q. And among the things that you learned during the time 23 period starting in 1995 is that in June of 1995, the Islamic 24 Group attempted to assassinate Egyptian President Hosni 25 Mubarak, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9584 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. I think that took place when the case was still going on, 2 the first trial of the Sheikh, I think. But, yes, you are 3 absolutely right. 4 And this particular assassination attempt brought an 5 end to the movement call to arms against the government. 6 There were several leaders in the movement, according 7 to my research and memory, that they believed that this attempt 8 was the worst thing they could have ever carried out because it 9 brought down on them the rath of the government. 10 And there was a split at the time, the movement -- 11 some of them capitulated, some of them agreed to a cease-fire. 12 And that's where the whole idea of peace initiative started, 13 after the assassination attempt. 14 So, they had negotiation with the government for a 15 couple of years, they issued some kind of peace initiative. 16 There was some informal negotiation involving scientists, 17 engineers, doctors, all members of the community. 18 So, yes, the assassination attempt, in my view, was 19 the final blow to that particular movement. 20 Q. As you just testified, the subject of whether to cease 21 engaging in violence was a subject of division within the group 22 right from the start, correct? 23 A. Well, they used violence for several reasons. 24 From their perspective, to defend themselves. From 25 their perspective, also in order to bring about justice. And, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9585 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 from their perspective, if other means doesn't work, then 2 violence might. So. 3 Q. My question was, though, the leaders of the group were 4 divided on that subject? 5 A. Yes, absolutely. They were divided from 1979 on the use of 6 violence, yes. 7 Q. Now, turning back to 1995 and the assassination attempt, 8 that had occurred while then president -- well, President 9 Mubarak was traveling in Ethiopia, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. And, prior to that occasion in 1995, there were two prior 12 occasions when members of the Islamic Group had been accused by 13 the Egyptian government of plotting to assassinate President 14 Mubarak, correct? 15 A. I believe so, yes. 16 Q. Now, another event that you learned about was in April of 17 1996 when members of the Islamic Group attacked a bus full of 18 Greek tourists, correct? 19 A. Yes. I read that in the papers, yes. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I show Government Exhibit 21 2415-2, which is in evidence? 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MS. BAKER: I'm sorry, I didn't hear your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I will try and speak into the microphone. 25 All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9586 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: I just wanted to make sure that it was all 2 right that it appeared on the screen. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize Government Exhibit 2415-2? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. That's a document that the FBI found in your home, correct? 7 A. Yes, correct. It's also a document that I believe I was 8 working on for either his case or to translate to the lawyers, 9 but this was not included in my dissertation. 10 Q. Showing you what's on the screen right now is the top of 11 the first page of the document. 12 Ms. Griffith, if you would put on the screen now the 13 third page of the document. 14 So, it is two pages of Arabic and now we are at a page 15 of English? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Are you the person who prepared this translation of the 18 Arabic pages? 19 A. I don't think so, no. I'm not really sure. 20 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to know that this 21 document was found in electronic form on a computer disk that 22 the FBI seized from your home? 23 A. I'm not sure who did the translation but I know I 24 translated that for someone, yes. 25 Q. Now, whoever prepared it, what's on the screen now as the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9587 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 third page, is it the case that the third and fourth pages are 2 an English translation of the Arabic on the first and second 3 pages of this document? 4 A. That sounds right. 5 Q. Would you like to see the original? 6 A. No, no, no. I take your word for it. 7 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would focus -- that's fine. 8 The document indicates in the upper left-hand corner 9 that it's by Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in Egypt, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. And, the heading in the center a couple of lines below that 12 says there is no place for Jewish people in the land of Muslim 13 Egypt, correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. And then in the first paragraph of the document it provides 16 a little bit of information about the attack that I was just 17 asking you about, correct? 18 A. I believe so, yes. 19 Q. And it says that the forces of martyr Tala't Yassien, 20 (military wing of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in Egypt) declare that 21 they are responsible for the Jihadi operation executed in Giza 22 province yesterday. The result of the operation was 18 dead 23 and 15 injured. 24 Correct? 25 A. That's correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9588 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And then in the next paragraph, if you would scroll down, 2 please. The next paragraph states: The forces of Tala't 3 Yassien announce that the purpose of this operation is to 4 avenge the blood of the martyrs killed in Lebanon by the sons 5 of monkeys and pigs and the slaves of the oppressive false 6 idols (the Jewish people). 7 Is that right? 8 A. That's right, yes. 9 Q. In the next paragraph it explains: It is important to 10 mention that the original target of this Jihadi operation was a 11 group of Jewish tourists who were supposed to be taking the bus 12 to Alexandria at the moment of the attack. 13 Correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would turn to the next page and focus 16 on the text that is furthest down on that page in the last 17 paragraph, the signature line. 18 The last paragraph of the document begins: We have 19 repeatedly warned all tourists not to come to Egypt. We are 20 renewing this warning because we are concerned for their lives. 21 Correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then down at the bottom the document is signed in the 24 sense that there is a name and date typed there and it says: 25 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in Egypt, April 19th, 1996. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9589 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Correct? 2 A. That's correct, yes. 3 Q. Thank you. You can take that down. 4 Now, moving forward in time a little bit, you were 5 aware, were you not, that in July 1997 the Islamic Group killed 6 six policemen near Minya? 7 A. I really don't recall every operation they did but, as I 8 said, they are a militant group, they were involved in militant 9 activities against the government. 10 At some point in time they took up arms after that so 11 I can't really recall every single thing that they have done. 12 They have done a lot of horrible stuff, they have done a lot of 13 killing and, you know, the peace initiative took place in 1997. 14 Prior to that they have done a lot of killing, a lot of 15 terrorist activities, and I just can't recall everything. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I -- 17 THE COURT: I'm not sure Mr. Yousry was finished. 18 THE WITNESS: I just want to say, but if you said that 19 then it is probably right. I just don't recall. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 21 Exhibit 2421-1, which is in evidence? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge the top half of the 24 document or the column in the middle of that top half -- sorry. 25 Before you do that, actually, if you could go down to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9590 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 bottom of the document, the handwritten portion on the left. 2 Mr. Yousry, do you see in handwriting there it says 3 IHT 7/30/97? 4 A. I do see that, yes. 5 Q. Is that your handwriting? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Do you understand that to be a reference to the 8 International Herald Tribune of July 30th, 1997? 9 A. I believe so, yes. 10 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you could go back to that column in the 11 top half of that document? 12 Mr. Yousry, this document was found by the FBI in your 13 home, correct? 14 A. Yes. That's a document, I believe Mr. Jabara gave it to 15 me. 16 Q. In the middle column there of this article, focusing your 17 attention on the second full paragraph in that column, it says: 18 Given the splintered nature of the militant group, it is 19 unclear whether members will respect the declaration by the six 20 leaders who are serving life terms for their part in the 1981 21 assassination of President Anwar Sadat. One important factor 22 is whether the truce will be endorsed by the group's spiritual 23 leader, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, who is serving a prison term 24 in New York. 25 And that describes his situation a little bit. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9591 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Now, Ms. Griffith, if you would show the lower half of 2 the document, specifically the lower portion of the middle 3 column? 4 Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to the next to 5 last paragraph in that column, it says, on July 22nd, for 6 example, six policemen were killed when their vehicle was fired 7 on by Islamic militants near Minya in the upper Nile valley. 8 Does that refresh your recollection that that incident 9 took place in July of 1997? 10 A. It just said it in the paper. I don't remember it but, 11 yes. So. 12 Q. Now, you also -- thank you, you may take that document 13 down. 14 You also learned, essentially at the time it happened, 15 that the Islamic Group had carried out an attack in Luxor Egypt 16 on September 17th, 1997, correct? 17 A. Yes, correct. 18 Q. And part of what you learned about that incident at around 19 the time it happened is that the perpetrators of that attack 20 left pamphlets at the scene and those pamphlets contained a 21 claim of responsibility by the Islamic Group, correct? 22 A. Yes. I read that in the New York Times, yes. 23 Q. And you also learned that that attack resulted in the 24 deaths of 58 foreign tourists and several Egyptian guards, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9592 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 As a matter of fact, I used the articles in my classes 3 to illustrate the use of violence and how horrible that is. 4 Q. And when you say the articles, you are referring to a 5 collection of news articles that you had clipped relating to 6 the incident? 7 A. I believe I used the New York Times article. I used some 8 translation that I provided to the students from Arab 9 newspapers. 10 It was so horrible that, you know, I thought that this 11 would be something that the students will learn from. 12 Q. And you also learned from the sources or the media accounts 13 that you read of that attack that the, that there were 14 pamphlets left at the scene that demanded, among other things, 15 the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman from custody in the 16 United States? 17 A. I read that. I read that in the papers, yes. Whether it 18 was right or wrong I have no way of verifying. But I read it 19 in the papers, yes. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I am about to change topics, 21 would you like me to continue? 22 THE COURT: All right. We can break for lunch. 23 Mr. Fletcher indicates to me that the lunch is ready 24 for the jurors, so we will break for lunch and please be back 25 at 2:00. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9593 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 And ladies and gentlemen, please remember to follow 2 all of my instructions. Please, don't talk about this case at 3 all. Please don't talk about the case at all. 4 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 5 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law and 6 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 7 Have a good lunch and I will look forward to seeing 8 you this afternoon. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 11 Please be back at 1:50. Have a good lunch. See you 12 this afternoon. 13 (Luncheon recess) 14 (Continued next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9594 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:10 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 5 Good to see you all. 6 All right, Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, thank you. 10 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 11 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 12 BY MS. BAKER: 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, Dr. Lockman from NYU is your dissertation 14 advisor? 15 A. Yes, he is. 16 Q. Now, you heard his testimony that he gave at this trial 17 last week? 18 A. I did, yes. 19 Q. And in addition to the fact that he is your dissertation 20 advisor, he's also a professor of Modern Middle East History, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, he is. 23 Q. And he's chair of the Department of Middle Eastern and 24 Islamic Studies, correct? 25 A. Yes, that's right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9595 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, do you agree with Dr. Lockman that a dissertation has 2 to make what could be described as a new contribution to the 3 field in order to be successful? 4 A. That is correct, yes. 5 Q. And do you agree that what that means, basically, is that 6 you have to say something new about the subject of your 7 dissertation? 8 A. Not necessarily something new about an old subject; you can 9 address a new subject. 10 Q. Those are the two alternatives: Either address a new 11 subject, or if you're addressing a subject that someone has 12 written about before, say something new about it? 13 A. Sure, yes. 14 Q. Now, do you agree with Dr. Lockman that for a dissertation 15 to be good, it not only needs to be something new but also have 16 significance? 17 A. It has to be original work, too, as well, yes. 18 Q. You agree with him that a dissertation is a significant 19 factor in a person's ability to get a job in academia? 20 A. Well, the job in academia, the job market in academia is 21 divided into two categories. You can get a job in a research 22 institute or get a job in a teaching university. So if you 23 want to pursue a job in a research institute, publication is 24 very important. You have to publish. But in a teaching 25 institute, you have to have the ability to be a good teacher; SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9596 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 not necessarily a publication. So it depends. 2 Q. Most major universities put a high premium on publication 3 on the part of their tenured faculty members, is that correct? 4 A. Major universities, yes. 5 Q. Now, the reason why a dissertation might be important in a 6 person seeking a job in academia is in part because it reflects 7 on a person's qualifications to write and to teach, correct? 8 A. In part, yes. 9 Q. Also because it is an example of their scholarship, 10 correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. And do you agree that generally a better dissertation might 13 result in a better job? 14 A. As I said, yes. 15 Q. Now, do you agree that a dissertation is one of the things 16 that a selection committee would look at in evaluating a 17 candidate for a job in academia? 18 A. One of the things, yes. 19 Q. And do you agree that generally academic jobs in the field 20 of history, or at least Middle Eastern history, are 21 competitive? 22 A. Not anymore, no. Not after September 11th. After 23 September 11th there are a lot of positions available. 24 Q. Let me make my question a little more specific: Obviously 25 you would -- one would prefer -- I'm assuming you would prefer SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9597 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 to get a job at a reputable university, or university with a 2 national reputation if possible, correct? 3 A. Not really. I was very happy at York College, which is a 4 part of CUNY. And it's a teaching university. I feel very 5 comfortable there. I felt that I connected with the community 6 of the students there, mostly minorities. And I really didn't 7 have any aspiration to go work for Harvard or, you know... 8 Q. Is it your testimony that it was your long term aspiration 9 to obtain a tenure track faculty position at York College? 10 A. There were actually two attempts at York College to keep me 11 permanent, but there was no budget so ... 12 Q. I'm sorry, there was no? 13 A. There were two attempts to keep me on a permanent basis at 14 York College, but there were no budget available for that. 15 There's a lot of budget cuts, so I just stayed there as an 16 adjunct. 17 Q. My question is a little different though. My question is: 18 What was your desire? If you could have your job of choice in 19 academia, what would it be? 20 A. CUNY sounds very good to me. 21 Q. Even in the context, even in this situation where the jobs 22 may be in your opinion somewhat less competitive, obviously 23 completing a quality dissertation is a factor, correct? 24 A. That is correct, yes. 25 Q. Now, you gave some testimony earlier about some of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9598 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 source materials that you relied on in research that you had 2 done leading up to your dissertation and also in drafting your 3 dissertation? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. In addition to the materials that I asked you about 6 earlier, you also relied, in researching and writing your 7 dissertation, on what you described as personal interviews and 8 phone interviews of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. Now, when you used the phrase in your dissertation 11 "personal interview," what you were referring to essentially 12 was information that you had obtained from him during the 13 course of a prison visit, correct? 14 A. That is correct, yes. Sometimes he would comment on the 15 newspaper or say something to the lawyers that I find 16 interesting without me trying to ask him something. So it was 17 a combination of -- yes. 18 Q. Sorry. I understand. Sometimes he might just happen to 19 say something, but on other occasions you specifically asked 20 him questions? 21 A. Yeah. I would seek an answer to certain things, yes. 22 Q. But just to be clear, when you said personal interview, 23 that meant that it was when you were visiting him in prison in 24 person? 25 A. Either visiting or on the phone, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9599 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Well, didn't you use the phrase phone interview to refer to 2 when you were talking to him on the phone? 3 A. All right, maybe. 4 Q. Now, in the two parts of your dissertation that were parts 5 of the chapter on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, is it a fact that 6 there are about 77 footnotes that cite to interviews of Sheikh 7 Omar Abdel Rahman, either personal interviews or phone 8 interviews? 9 A. That sounds about right, yeah. I never counted them, but, 10 yeah. 11 Q. Now, some of those interviews -- and for now when I'm using 12 the phrase "interviews," I'd like you to understand it to mean 13 either in person or on the phone, OK? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Some of those interviews that you have cited in the drafts 16 of your dissertation occurred prior to the time when the 17 Special Administrative Measures were imposed upon Sheikh Omar 18 Abdel Rahman, correct? 19 A. Yes. I used to keep notes for all the meetings that the 20 lawyers had with the Sheikh from March of 1995. At some point 21 after I took all the information I wanted from the portion of 22 the notes prior to 1997, I got rid of the notebooks but I kept 23 the rest, which we have now. 24 Q. Now, the SAMs were imposed on Sheikh Abdel Rahman in the 25 spring of 1997, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9600 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. That sounds about right, yes. 2 Q. And as we were just discussing, you had some interviews 3 before that but you also relied in your drafts of your 4 dissertation on a number of interviews that occurred after the 5 Special Administrative Measures were imposed, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. In fact, the two drafts of the parts of your chapter on 8 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman cite to about 34 different dates of 9 interviews that occurred after the SAMs were imposed, correct? 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I just object. Instead of 11 just talking about draft, could we refer to it by its exhibit 12 number, so I'm sure what she's talking about? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, the parts of your dissertation, the drafts that 15 you described as being parts of a chapter on Sheikh Omar Abdel 16 Rahman, those were MY550LT3 and MY550LT4, correct? 17 A. That's correct, yeah. 18 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 19 MS. BAKER: Now I've lost what my previous question 20 and answer was. 21 THE COURT: All right. The reporter can read back the 22 last question and answer. 23 And while we're doing that, Mr. Yousry, please 24 remember to keep your voice up, thank you. 25 (Record read) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9601 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 THE WITNESS: I never counted them but that sounds 2 right maybe. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display some portions 4 of Exhibit MY550LT3 in evidence. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please show page 2 7 and focus in on the footnotes. 8 BY MS. BAKER: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see in footnote two there you cite to 10 what you describe as Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, personal 11 interview, New York City, Metropolitan Correctional Center, in 12 brackets, MCC -- I'm sorry, withdrawn. I'm reading the wrong 13 footnote. 14 In footnote two, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, personal 15 interview, paren, Rochester, Minnesota, federal prison. 16 9/18/1999. Do you see that? 17 A. Yes, I do see that. 18 Q. So that's an example of a citation to you gathering some 19 information during a prison visit on that date, 9/18/1999, 20 correct? 21 A. In the drafts, yeah. Some of the dates probably are off 22 one day or two days, but I didn't finish checking that yet. 23 Some of the notes have a question mark next to them. So, yes, 24 most likely, yes. 25 Q. And, in fact, you did visit Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9602 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 September 1999? 2 A. I believe. I believe so, yes. 3 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show now page 13 of the document 4 and focus on footnote 27. 5 Mr. Yousry, do you see in that footnote there is a 6 reference to a personal interview on 8/3/1997? 7 A. Yes, I do see that. Yes. 8 Q. And, again, that would have been another visit to Sheikh 9 Abdel Rahman, correct? 10 A. Most likely, yes. 11 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would now focus on footnote 29 in that 12 same page. 13 Mr. Yousry, this one cites to a phone interview on 14 9/2/1997, correct? 15 A. That's what it says, yes. 16 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show, please, page 17, note 42. 17 And, Mr. Yousry, does that one reflect another phone 18 interview on 5/6/1999? 19 A. Correct, yes. 20 Q. Ms. Griffith, on the same page, note 46. 21 Mr. Yousry, does that show a phone interview on 22 12/21/1999? 23 A. Yes, it does. 24 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show page 19, note 49, please. 25 This one shows another phone interview, this time on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9603 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 4/2/1999, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 Q. On the same page, note 51. This one shows a phone 4 interview on 4/5/1999, correct? 5 A. That is correct. That's what it says, yes. 6 Q. Page 21, note 57, a phone interview on 3/16/1999, correct? 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. Page 22, note 58, a phone interview on March 23, 1999? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. Page 23, note 61, a phone interview on 7/13/1999, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Page 25, note 64. A personal -- sorry, withdrawn. 13 Well, let me ask you about that one. Do you see at 14 the end of the footnote it refers to the date, 9/30/1998? 15 A. Yes, I do. 16 Q. Earlier in the footnote it says personal interview, then it 17 makes reference to New York City, MCC, and the date, 8/18/1995. 18 The fact that it then says and and another date, does that mean 19 that the 9/30/1998 refers to another personal interview? 20 A. I believe so, yes. I believe that the second one 21 probably -- I asked a question to confirm something happened 22 before maybe. I don't know. 23 Q. Page 28, note 69. This one cites to a phone interview on 24 1/8/1999, correct? 25 A. This is, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9604 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Page 28, note 72, this one cites to a phone interview on 2 6/3/1998, right? 3 A. Yes, it does. 4 Q. Page 31, note 77, this one cites to a phone interview on 5 11/20/1998, correct? 6 A. That is correct, yes. 7 Q. Page 32, note 78, this one cites to another phone interview 8 on 11/24/1998, correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. Page 37, note 89, cites to a phone interview on 9/11/1998, 11 does it not? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. Page 38, note 90, refers to a phone interview on 10/9/1998, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Page 45, note 103, cites a phone interview on 4/10/1998, 17 correct? 18 A. Correct. 19 Q. And finally in this document, page 50, note 97, cites to a 20 phone interview on 8/27/1999? 21 A. 8/27, yes. 22 Q. Now, these footnotes that I've just shown you each cite a 23 different date, but it's true, is it not, that you might cite 24 the same interview more than once within the document, correct? 25 A. Maybe, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9605 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith -- 2 A. There were about 400 calls so I'm not really sure. If you 3 mean that I recorded two calls in one interview or two 4 questions in one interview -- is that your question? 5 Q. Yes, the latter. 6 A. Yeah, yeah, that could be, yes. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we now display portions of 8 MY550LT4 in evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show, please, page 1, note 1. 11 Mr. Yousry, does this footnote cite to a personal 12 interview, meaning a visit, on 3/1 and 3/2/1999? 13 A. Yes, it does. 14 Q. Page 2, note 4, cites to a phone interview on 9/12/1997, 15 correct? 16 A. It does, yes. 17 Q. Page 2 also, note 8, cites to a phone interview on 18 3/23/1999, correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. Page 3, note 14, cites to a phone interview on 10/12/1999, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Page 4, note 16, here you've cited a phone interview on 24 11/2/1999 -- I'm sorry. Am I reading that right? Yes. 25 11/2/1999, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9606 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, that's correct. 2 Q. Page 6, note 25, cites to another phone interview on 3 3/12/1999, right? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. Page 8, note 32, cites to a phone interview on 5/25/1999, 6 correct? 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. And a few more to go. Page 11, note 47, you're citing to 9 an interview, this time by phone, on 1/22/99, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And on the same page, note 50, another phone interview a 12 week later on 1/29/99, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. Same page, 11, note 51, citing a phone interview on 15 12/10/1999, right? 16 A. Correct. 17 Q. Page 17, note 79, a phone interview on 1/4 of 2000? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Page 22, note 100, cites to a phone interview on 20 12/17/1999? 21 A. Correct. 22 Q. Page 22, note 101, cites to a personal interview -- sorry, 23 also cites to a phone interview on 12/3/1999, correct? 24 A. 12/3 is the last line you're reading? 25 Q. Yes. If you look where the cursor is now pointing. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9607 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. I do, yeah, I do. This portion of the draft was not 2 edited. I mean, you can see the spelling mistakes so... 3 Q. Page 25, note 122, cites to a phone interview on 6/18/1999, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes, correct. 6 Q. And finally, page 29, note 142, cites to a phone interview 7 on 8/13 of 1999, correct? 8 A. Correct, yes. 9 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, do you remember on direct examination you 10 were asked the following questions and you gave the following 11 answers, and this is transcript page 9341. 12 "Q. Over the years that you participated in prison 13 calls, calls with Sheikh Rahman from prison before they were -- 14 before they started to be recorded, after they started to be 15 recorded, how frequently did it happen that the attorneys gave 16 you a list of approved topics and then really didn't 17 participate in the conversation any further? 18 "A. It was frequent. 19 "Q. And did you use those opportunities to pursue 20 any agenda that you might have had? 21 "A. I had no other agenda than doing my job." 22 Part of what you were doing during your interviews 23 with Sheikh Abdel Rahman was gathering information from your -- 24 sorry, for use in your dissertation, correct? 25 A. Approved by the lawyers, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9608 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. But that is part of what you were doing during your 2 communications with him? 3 A. Approved by the lawyers, yes. 4 Q. Now, in addition to interviews of Sheikh Abdel Rahman 5 himself, your dissertation also cites to personal interviews of 6 some of his family members, does it not? 7 A. When they came to visit in the United States, yes. 8 Q. And when you said, when he, you were referring to Sheikh 9 Abdel Rahman's brother, who's named Ahmed Abdel Rahman? 10 A. I said "they." It was the brother and the first wife. 11 Q. His brother is Ahmed Abdel Rahman? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you cite in your drafts of your dissertation to some 14 days that you spoke with him, correct? 15 A. I spoke with him on two or three different occasions, yes. 16 Q. And as I think you mentioned a minute ago, you also spoke 17 with Sheikh Abdel Rahman's first wife, whose name is Ayesha 18 Hasan, correct? 19 A. I saw her once or twice; once with Mr. Ramsey Clark, and 20 the second time with Ms. Lynne Stewart. 21 Q. Now, in the two drafts, MY550LT3 and MY550LT4, there are 22 about 38 footnotes that cite to interviews of Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman's family members, correct? 24 A. Yes, his brother. 25 Q. You're saying that most of them were -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9609 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Most of them, I believe, yes, I believe so. 2 Q. And in addition to Sheikh Abdel Rahman and his family 3 members, your dissertation also relies on information that you 4 obtained by interviewing other people who know Sheikh Abdel 5 Rahman, correct? 6 A. In the United States, yes. 7 Q. For example, you cite in certain instances to Ahmed Abdel 8 Sattar, correct? 9 A. Yes. Mr. Sattar was a person who knew the Sheikh longer 10 than me, and he had a personal knowledge of a lot of the stuff 11 that happened during the period of time that I was covering, 12 yes. 13 Q. And you also cite Nasser Ahmed, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Nabil Elmasry? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Also Lynne Stewart? 18 A. Ms. Lynne Stewart attended several meetings with her 19 client, yes. 20 Q. Well, and you cited to her in a couple of instances -- 21 A. And I asked questions and got answers, yes. 22 Q. I need to ask to you let me finish my question before you 23 start answering. 24 A. Sorry. Sorry. 25 Q. Also you cited to Ramsey Clark, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9610 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And to Abdeen Jabara? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And in total, there were 42 footnotes in MY550LT3 and 5 MY550LT4 citing interviews of these other people who know 6 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 7 A. That sounds about right maybe, yes. 8 Q. Now, as I think you've already testified, you were still 9 working on your dissertation as of the date you were arrested, 10 correct? 11 A. I was, yes. 12 Q. And, again, that was April 9th of 2002? 13 A. That's the date, yes. 14 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that as of early 15 2000 you felt that you no longer wished to work with Sheikh 16 Abdel Rahman, correct? 17 A. Correct, yes. 18 Q. But as it turned out, you were still working with Sheikh 19 Abdel Rahman as of your arrest on April 9th of 2002, correct? 20 A. After the calls were cut down to once a week, and also we 21 had a period of I believe three months that there were no 22 contact at all. Yes. 23 Q. OK. When you said three months of no contact, you were 24 referring to late 2000 to early 2001, when -- 25 A. That is -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9611 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. -- no lawyer had signed an affirmation? 2 A. Yes. Yes. 3 Q. In any event, you were still continuing to work with him as 4 of the date of your arrest, is that correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you were 7 doing some teaching, is that right? 8 A. Yes, I was. 9 Q. Was that essentially part-time work? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And at any time up until the time of your arrest were you 12 doing any other translation work separate and apart from your 13 work with Sheikh Abdel Rahman? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. At any time up until the time of your arrest did you seek 16 any other employment? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination, as I said a 19 minute ago, that as of early 2000 you felt that you no longer 20 wished to work with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. And do you remember being asked the following question and 23 giving in part the following answer; this is at transcript page 24 9078: 25 "Q. And why did you want to pull out of the case in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9612 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 early 2000? 2 "A. I wasn't getting paid regularly at that time. 3 My collection of materials that I needed for my dissertation 4 was almost completed." 5 And then your answer continued. Do you remember 6 giving that testimony? 7 A. I do, yes. 8 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that you asked Sheikh Omar Abdel 9 Rahman some questions relating to your dissertation during the 10 February 2000 prison visit? 11 A. That is the visit that I intended to be the last visit, 12 yes. 13 Q. And you testified on direct examination as I recall that 14 you put colored flags in your notebook pages to -- the original 15 notebooks to indicate materials that you would use for your 16 dissertation, is that correct? 17 A. I forgot the system of code, yeah, but that is primarily 18 the reason, yes. 19 Q. Putting aside the details of the system, is it fair to say 20 that if there is a flag, it was some kind of information for 21 your dissertation but just the different colors might have 22 meant different kinds of information? 23 A. The different colors, I believe they referred to either a 24 visit or a phone call, some -- you know, some other color I 25 used. I believe it was to check something in my dissertation, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9613 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 and that's the page to check. So they served several purposes. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to ask for 3 an exhibit from Mr. Ruhnke. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 BY MS. BAKER: 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you two items that are in evidence. 9 One is MY1004CT and the other is MY1000. Just to remind the 10 jury -- sorry. MY1004 is the second one. 11 Just to remind the jury, MY1004, that's your original 12 notebook, correct? 13 A. Yes, it is. It says legal notes number five and the name 14 of the client and his federal number, yes. 15 Q. When you say "the client," when you've used that phrase in 16 your testimony, you're referring to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 17 A. Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in that case, yes. 18 Q. The court reporter can only take down one of us at a time, 19 so even if you know where I'm going, please let me finish the 20 question first. 21 A. Sure. 22 Q. When you say "the client," you're referring to Sheikh Omar 23 Abdel Rahman, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. When you discussed Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman with the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9614 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 lawyers, for example, you didn't refer to him as the client, 2 did you? You referred to him as Sheikh Omar or the Sheikh, 3 correct? 4 A. The Sheikh, that's the word we use, yes. 5 Q. Turning back to the notebook, 1004, MY1004 is the original, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And MY1004CT, that's the copy that has the Arabic on one 9 side and the English on the other side, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Let me direct your attention first, please, to MY1004CT at 12 the page with the number in the upper right-hand corner 0753. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if it's going to go a little 14 longer, I'd like my own copy back to look at. The government 15 was given a set of these so... 16 THE COURT: Could you both look on at the same time 17 perhaps? 18 MS. BAKER: Actually, your Honor, I don't have one 19 here in front of me at all. I've given it to the witness. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Well, everybody else has one except me, 21 your Honor. I'd like to have a copy of the exhibit to look, 22 see what page you're referring to obviously. 23 MS. BAKER: If I might -- I would hope that the 24 witness could have the original. I thought that that's what 25 that was. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9615 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: I'll borrow Mr. Paul's copy. Thank you. 2 THE COURT: OK. 3 BY MS. BAKER: 4 Q. Do you have that page in front of you now? 5 A. Yes, I do. 6 Q. Is that a page of your notes relating to the February 2000 7 visit? 8 A. February 18, I believe, yes. 9 Q. And is there a notation in Arabic on that page, questions 10 for my doctoral thesis? 11 A. There is, yes. 12 Q. If you would, by reference to the Arabic, look in Exhibit 13 MY1004, the original notebook, and try to find the 14 corresponding page. And to assist you in finding it, I believe 15 that you'll find that it has a pink flag on it. So if you 16 could check the pages, that has a pink flag. 17 A. I found it, yes. 18 Q. And am I correct, is there a pink flag on that page? 19 A. Yes, there is a pink flag. 20 Q. Now, part of what you discussed with Sheikh Abdel Rahman 21 during this February 2000 prison visit was his views on the 22 State of Israel, correct? 23 A. That is correct, yes. 24 Q. And essentially he told you that Israel was not to be 25 accepted and that it had to be amputated or abolished, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9616 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yeah. He was referring to that institution of the State of 2 Israel, yes. 3 Q. You also during that visit spoke with him about how his 4 views compared with that of certain other Islamists or Islamic 5 scholars, correct? 6 A. That is correct, yes. The person that I asked about was a 7 subject of my master thesis, Sayyed Qutb, S-A-Y-Y-E-D-Q-U-T-B. 8 Q. And you asked him some other questions as well, but those 9 were two of the topics? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Turning away from the February 2000 visit, you also asked 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman some questions relating to your 13 dissertation in a prison call on May 2nd of 2000, correct? 14 A. Probably. I'm sorry. 15 Q. That's all right. 16 MS. BAKER: May I have a minute. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you would look, please, at MY1004CT. 19 A. Yes. Yes. 20 Q. Now, I may be looking at a prior version of the document so 21 I'm not positive that I'm about to give you the right page 22 number, but if you would try looking at page 0805. 23 A. Tuesday, May 2, 2000? 24 Q. Correct. 25 A. Is that -- yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9617 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, are those notes that you took relating to events on 2 that date, Tuesday, May 2nd of 2000? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. And that was a prison call on that date, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that was before the period of time that the prison 7 calls were recorded, correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. Now, if you would turn a few pages back to page 0808. 10 A. 808? 11 Q. 0808. 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Now, obviously I'm referring to the English translation. 14 Please refer either to the Arabic or the English, whichever you 15 prefer. 16 But essentially those are some notes that you took 17 relating to a discussion that you had with Sheikh Abdel Rahman 18 about jihad, correct? 19 A. I -- I have to actually look at it because they might be 20 not only one time, they might be a couple of times, because I 21 indicated two arrows. So, yeah, essentially, yes. But I'm not 22 sure if it was only one call or two calls. 23 Q. If you would just look at the pages -- 805 is where we 24 started, a few pages back. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9618 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Look at the pages in between. See if there's anything that 2 indicates to you that 808 relates to any date other than 3 May 2nd of 2000. 4 A. No, it doesn't, but it was, I believe, the last page of 5 that book. So maybe it was the call on May 2nd and the call 6 after, because I have an arrow, double -- double -- I think I 7 still remember the system, so -- but, yes, it took place on 8 May 2nd, and maybe the call following that. 9 Q. Now, if you would look, please, at the original notebook, 10 MY1004, I'd like you to find the page of the original notebook 11 that corresponds to 808, MY1004CT. And, again, I would suggest 12 that you look at the pages with the pink flags. 13 A. Yes. It's the last page of the book. 14 Q. And does it, in fact, have a pink flag? 15 A. Yes, it does. 16 Q. Now, you also got some information from Sheikh Omar Abdel 17 Rahman for your dissertation on July 21st of 2000, did you not? 18 A. I might have, yes. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 20 Exhibit MY1205 in evidence? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, am I set to use the Elmo? 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm showing you first the top portion of the 24 first page of Exhibit MY1205. Do you recognize that as the 25 transcript of a prison call? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9619 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. And directing your attention to the top of the screen, 3 that's a transcript of a call on July 21st of 2000, correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. It says, enhanced legal weekly phone 5 call, 7/21/2000, yes. 6 Q. Now, let me show you page 20 of that transcript. Directing 7 your attention to the portion of the page where I've put the 8 red markings now. You say, all right, sir. Well, sir, if you 9 will, I have some questions. Your father, sir, did he own a 10 store? You said once that your father was a merchant. 11 Abdel Rahman-- OK, do you see that portion starting 12 there? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And showing you now the top of the next page, page 21. 15 Again, you're continuing to ask him some questions, right? At 16 the top of the page, for example, it says, sir, do you recall 17 that he was influenced by the ideas of the Muslim brotherhood 18 or the ideas of jihad, or was he just a Sheikh who taught you? 19 A. That is correct, yes. I do see that. 20 Q. So on this occasion you were, again, soliciting some 21 information from Sheikh Abdel Rahman for use in your 22 dissertation, right? 23 A. Yes, correct. 24 Q. Did you also ask Abdel Rahman some questions on 25 September 5th of 2000? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9620 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 A. Maybe, yes. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I need a minute to find 3 another transcript, if I may. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display portions of 6 MY1216 in evidence. 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 BY MS. BAKER: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, showing you first the top of the first page. 10 This is the transcript of a prison call that you participated 11 in on September 5th of 2000, correct? 12 A. Yes, it is. 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm sorry. I'm afraid I need 14 to take a minute. There seems to be a disconnect between what 15 I'm looking for in the exhibit and what I'm finding here. 16 THE COURT: OK. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll take ten 17 minutes. Please remember my continuing instructions. Please, 18 don't talk about this case at all. Always remember to keep an 19 open mind until you've heard all of the evidence, I've 20 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 21 begin your deliberations. 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9621 4bnesat4 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: I didn't want to suggest it in front of 3 the jury but I have -- I have a box that was provided with the 4 MY1000CT set. 5 MR. RUHNKE: We found an extra set. We were able to 6 work it out, your Honor, so that's not a difficulty. 7 THE COURT: OK. All right. See you shortly. 8 (Recess) 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9623 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 (Page 9622 SEALED by order of the Court) 2 (In open court) 3 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 4 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 5 (Jury present) 6 THE COURT: Be seated, all. 7 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher? 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 10 are still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 13 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 14 May I display again portions of MY-1216, in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. MY-1216 in evidence. 16 BY MS. BAKER: 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, to pick up where we left off, again, this is 18 the top portion of the first page of MY-1216 and, as you can 19 see from the very top line, it is the transcript of a prison 20 call that you participated in on September 5th of 2000, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes, that's correct. 23 Q. Turning now to the correct page within that transcript, 24 showing you the bottom portion of page 24, and do you see the 25 portion where I have now put a red marking on the screen? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9624 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. And you asked Abdel Rahman: Well, sir, one thing. Your 3 brother, sir, Hajj Ahmed and your brother Hajj Mohammed, you 4 are nine years younger than they are, than your sister Khadija, 5 is that correct? 6 Is that what you said? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. What you said in the call ends with "is that correct?" 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did I read it correctly? 11 A. Yes, you did. 12 Q. You continue from there asking Sheikh Rahman about the 13 members of his family, correct? 14 A. Yes, that is correct. 15 Q. Again, that is for your senior dissertation. 16 Let me move back in time for a moment to a date that I 17 inadvertently skipped over. 18 Do you also remember asking Abdel Rahman questions 19 about your dissertation on August 10th of 2000? 20 THE COURT: I might have, yes. 21 I put on the witness stand there in front of you -- 22 oh, I'm sorry. No, I didn't. 23 A. I believe I have MY-1006. 24 Q. You do have MY-1006 which is the original of one of your 25 notebooks, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9625 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, that is correct. It says legal notes -- I'm sorry. 2 Q. No, no, that's fine. Please, go ahead. 3 A. It says legal notes, number 6, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 4 and the number. 5 Q. If I need to I will get 1006CT and give it to you, but 6 let's see if we can use this with the original 1006. 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. If you look for a page that has a pink flag on a page in 9 which you wrote Tuesday, August 10th? 10 MR. RUHNKE: Could I have a page number? 11 MS. BAKER: Yes. MY-1006CT, it is page 1109. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, would you like to see the copy? I can hand you 13 my copy. 14 A. I have -- the copy that I have here is Tuesday, August 1. 15 Q. Ah, okay. 16 A. I'm sorry I thought you said August 10th. 17 Q. Let me approach and show you MY-1006CT, and maybe we can 18 straighten it out. Maybe there is mistake in the translation? 19 A. Sure. 20 MS. BAKER: May I approach, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm handing you MY-1006CT, open to the two 23 pages that are both marked one in Arabic and one in English, 24 1109. 25 A. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9626 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, am I correct that the right-hand page there in 2 MY-1006CT, English page, says at the top that the Arabic page 3 says, in Arabic, Tuesday, August 10? 4 A. I see Tuesday, August 1st. So -- 5 Q. Are you looking at the Arabic page? 6 A. Looking at the Arabic page, yes. 7 Q. I'm trying to see if they don't match each other. 8 Look at the English page for a moment, please? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. What does the English page say that the date supposedly 11 says? 12 A. Tuesday, August 10th. 13 Q. Okay. But now, looking at your actual handwritten page in 14 Arabic on the left-hand side, what is the date that you 15 actually wrote in Arabic? 16 A. It is Tuesday, August 1st. 17 Q. Okay. So, can we agree that that's just a translation 18 error where it says, "Tuesday, August 10," it should say 19 "Tuesday, August 1st"? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On that page that says Tuesday, August 1st, are there notes 22 that you wrote relating to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's siblings? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 Q. That was, again, information you obtained from him for use 25 in your dissertation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9627 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. If you would look again at the original notebook, MY-1006, 3 and see if you can find -- I guess you must have had it a 4 minute ago, the matching page in the original notebook? 5 A. Yes, I do have it. 6 Q. Does that page also have a pink flag on it? 7 A. It does. 8 Q. And again, that page says in Arabic, August 1st? 9 A. It does. 10 Q. MY-1006 covers a period of time, primarily within the year 11 2000, correct? 12 A. Yes. It's the loose-leaf binder probably. Yes. 13 Q. Did you also obtain some information from Sheikh Omar Abdel 14 Rahman for use in your dissertation on October 27th of 2000? 15 A. That could be right, yes. 16 Q. Let me ask you to look, please -- actually, may I approach 17 and borrow back from you my copy of MY-1006CT? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 Q. Now, I have handed you back MY-1006CT open to a particular 21 page; that page numbered 1004? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. Does that page have, in English, a list of questions that 24 you intended to ask Sheikh Abdel Rahman regarding his childhood 25 and his family? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9628 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. It does. 2 Q. Again, that was for use in your dissertation? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, MY-1006 -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm not sure that he was 6 finished. 7 A. I was just going to add that I'm not sure I asked him all 8 these questions. That's all. 9 Thank you. 10 Q. MY-1006, the original notebook or 1006CT, again those 11 covered a time period primarily in the year 2000? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And you also obtained some information from Sheikh Abdel 14 Rahman for use in your dissertation in a call on October 26th 15 of 2001, correct? 16 A. That could be right, yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 BY MS. BAKER: 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you what's in evidence as 22 MY-1005CT; that's the copied and translated version of another 23 one your notebooks, correct? 24 A. That is correct, yes. 25 Q. And I handed it to you open to page 903, is that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9629 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is right. Yes. 2 Q. And on that page there is a date in your handwriting, the 3 Arabic version, of Friday, October 26, 2001, correct? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. And you participated in a prison call with Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman on that date? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Now, if you would keep turning, starting at 903, that's 9 where the date appears, and look at the intervening pages until 10 you get to the page marked 906 -- 11 A. Yes. 12 It's a very important page to me, so I know this page 13 almost by heart, so. 14 Q. Okay. And what that page reflects is that you had a 15 discussion with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, his thoughts about 16 the difference between Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya and a different 17 group known as Al-Jihad, correct? 18 A. Right. 19 Actually, I believe that the lawyer in charge of this 20 particular call was Mr. Jabara, and Mr. Jabara was editing a 21 volume for Arab American Student -- Arab American Studies 22 Journal, Indiana University, and he wanted to know a few 23 things. And I participated in that discussion, yes. 24 Q. And it occurred to you after the fact, perhaps, that that 25 information also could be useful to you in your dissertation? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9630 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. It confirmed a lot of the stuff I collected before, 2 yes. 3 I mean, this is not new but it was important in the 4 sense that they were all together listed together. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 6 again? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 Q. I have now handed you what's in evidence as MY-1005, is 10 that the corresponding original notebook? 11 A. Yes. It appears to be, yes. 12 Q. And directing your attention to the page with the pink 13 flag, is that the page that we were just discussing with your 14 notes from that October 26th, 2001 discussion? 15 A. It is the same page, yes. 16 Q. Did you also have some discussion with Abdel Rahman that 17 you thought would be useful in your dissertation on February 18 15th of 2002? 19 A. I just opened the page on February 15th, 2001, is that the 20 one you are asking for? 21 Q. No. I'm actually asking you about 2002. 22 A. Oh. I don't recall. I'm sorry, if we -- 23 Q. Your Honor, may I display a portion of MY-1257, in 24 evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9631 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm showing you the top portion of the first 2 page of MY-1257, do you recognize that as the transcript of a 3 prison call that you participated in on February 15th of 2002? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. Showing you the lower portion of page 11 on the same 6 exhibit, starting with the top line that's visible on the 7 screen there -- or actually -- well, what's visible at the top 8 of the screen now is where you start speaking. And so, 9 skipping over your first two sentences you then ask Sheikh Omar 10 Abdel Rahman: What is the name of your uncle who used to take 11 you to the Islamic primary school? 12 Do you see that part? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And he answers that. 15 Then he asks you: Are you going to write something? 16 And you say: No, it is because I, eh, eh, I am finishing up 17 the -- I mean that I am reviewing the Ph.D dissertation and so 18 on. And there are some things missing, including your uncle's 19 name. 20 Do you see that part? 21 A. I do see that. 22 Q. So you were asking him some questions at that point just to 23 fill in gaps in portions of your dissertation, correct? 24 A. Most of them, yes. They were not filling in gaps, like 25 names, minor stuff, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9632 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And on February 22nd, 2002, do you remember having another 2 discussion with Sheikh Abdel Rahman on that date that you also 3 thought could be used in your dissertation? 4 A. I must have probably, yes. 5 Q. If you would look, please, at MY-1005CT, which you should 6 have there in front of you, and if you would look at the page 7 numbered 0992? 8 A. Yes, I do have that. 9 Q. And, did you write in Arabic on that page, Friday, February 10 22nd? 11 A. It's February 15, I believe, 2001. Page 992. 12 Q. Ah. So, okay, are those notes that you are saying February 13 15th of 2002, that was the same as the date of the call that I 14 was just asking you about? Is that correct? 15 A. I think the call was just, was February 15, 2001. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display again MY-1257? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. That call was on February 15th of 2002, correct? 19 A. Right, correct. 20 And the English side -- I'm sorry. I just notice now 21 the English said [sic] should read 2002. 22 So I must have made a mistake in putting down the 23 date. 24 Q. Let's see if we can clarify this. 25 When you look at the Arabic, the Arabic literally says SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9633 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 2001, correct? 2 A. Yes, it does. 3 Q. But based on, for example, a comparison with the 4 surrounding pages, the person who did the translation at least 5 concluded that that was essentially the equivalent of a typo on 6 your part? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And that it should have said 2002? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. So, do you now believe that that page of Arabic notes, 11 which is marked 992, should in fact relate to February of 2002? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And just to clarify further, the date in the month of 14 February 2002 for that page of notes, 992 -- 15 A. That's February 15. 16 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, could we have a stretch break, 17 please? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (stretch break) 20 THE COURT: You may proceed. 21 BY MS. BAKER: 22 Q. Is it your belief, Mr. Yousry, that page 992 of Exhibit 23 MY-1005CT relates to the same date as this transcript which is 24 now on the screen, MY-1257? 25 A. I believe it does, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9634 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Turning your attention back to the notebook, if you would 2 page on from 992, which is where you started, to page 994, do 3 you see on page 994 your notation in Arabic, important 4 discussion? 5 A. 994? 6 Q. Yes. 7 A. I'm sorry, I don't see it. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach and look on at 9 the exhibit? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. RUHNKE: 994? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. May I borrow it for a moment? 14 A. Sure. 15 Q. I apologize. The top of 995. 16 A. Thank you. 17 Q. You wrote that notation, "important discussion," at the top 18 of page 995? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And at some point further down, either on 995 or perhaps on 21 the next page, 996, do you see notes that you wrote relating to 22 a discussion that included the question: What about the Wahabi 23 movement in Saudi Arabia? 24 A. Yes. I do see that. 25 I believe that relates to the same, if I'm not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9635 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 mistaken, the same volume that Mr. Jabara was working on. But 2 yes, I wrote down these notes in order to remind myself of 3 these particular answers, yes. 4 Q. Again, because you thought that that information would be 5 useful in your dissertation, correct? 6 A. Either that or, you know, an article later on or something. 7 Yes. 8 Q. Thank you. Now, if you would put that exhibit aside? 9 A. Sure. 10 Q. As part of the research that you did for your dissertation 11 you studied the leadership structure of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, 12 correct? 13 A. Early on, yes. 14 Q. I'm sorry, did you say early on? 15 A. Early on, yes. Before it became not as important as I 16 wanted it to be, in March 2000. 17 Q. Ah. 18 A. The most important figure was the Sheikh. Everything else 19 became background. 20 Q. So, when you said "early on" you meant early on in your 21 period of research? 22 A. Right, yes. I'm sorry, I -- 23 Q. And early on in your period of researching you were 24 studying the leadership of the group from the time when it 25 essentially formed up until about 1995 at least, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9636 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. The structure, not necessarily people. 2 Q. Well, in the course of studying the structure you did, of 3 course, become familiar with who a number of the Islamic 4 Group's leaders were, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, you gained that familiarity with some of the Islamic 7 Group's leader's from, among other sources, their own writing? 8 A. Yes, that's correct. 9 Q. And also from articles written about them, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. And some information that you obtained at various points 12 came from news articles that you were reading to Sheikh Omar 13 Abdel Rahman, correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Now, did you learn during the course of your researching 16 and working on your dissertation that leaders of the Islamic 17 Group included Tal'at Fu'ad Qasim? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Abbud al-Zumur? 20 A. I'm sorry, your pronunciation. I'm sorry. 21 Q. I'm happy to have you correct me. Abbud al-Zumur? 22 Something like that? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Karam Zuhdi? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9637 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Isam Dirbalah? 2 A. One more time? I'm sorry. 3 Q. Isam Dirbalah? 4 A. Yes. 5 I believe these were the historic leaders we call 6 them, the original founders. All of them were tried and put in 7 jail, yes. I do remember that, yes. 8 Q. And another member of that same group was Najih Ibrahim, 9 correct? 10 A. I believe so, yes. 11 Q. And as you said a moment ago, they were all tried, and that 12 was in Egypt, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And they are in prison there and have been in prison there 15 for quite a long time, correct? 16 A. Actually, no. Some of them were released last week, the 17 week before. They released 800 people because, as I said 18 earlier, the movement became nothing in 1995, so. 19 Q. Let me make my question more specific to the period of time 20 relating to the case. 21 Through the 1990s and up through at least the time of 22 your arrest they were imprisoned in Egypt, correct? 23 A. With the exception of Karam Zuhdi, I think he was released 24 before that. I can't recall dates. I have to look at 25 documents but that's what I believe, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9638 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, at one time Ayman Al-Zawahiri was also leader of the 2 Islamic Group, correct? 3 A. That is not correct. He was somebody who was arrested 4 along 800, 900 people and he was charged in the Sadat case and 5 he was found not guilty. He had his own cell and he formed his 6 own group in 1984 but he was never a member of Al-Gama'a 7 al-Islamiyya. 8 The information about him is very scarce and some of 9 the reports contradict one another, so some reports might refer 10 you to a period of time where he was leaning more or less 11 towards working with others but most of his adult life he 12 practically wanted to have his own movement. 13 That's my understanding. And he is not a figure that 14 I concentrated on, so this is a rough idea. 15 Q. Turning to a different person, Mustafa Hamza was one of the 16 leaders of the Islamic Group, correct? 17 A. He is also a person that I did not concentrate on. He 18 became a leader to that movement, I believe, in 1999, but I 19 don't know a thing about him other than that. 20 I read some reports in the newspapers that he was 21 involved in the assassination attempt of President Mubarak in 22 1995. Other than that, I don't know much about the person. 23 Q. Well, you know, do you not, that at one point he became a 24 leader of the military wing of the Islamic Group? 25 A. Yes. In 1999 I believe, yes. That's what I said, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9639 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Salah Hashim was also a leader of the Islamic Group? 2 A. I do not think that Salah Hasim was also a person that I 3 concentrated on. Maybe his name is mentioned but he was one of 4 the students in the '70s that basically started to cooperate 5 with President Sadat in order to form a Muslim social movement 6 in the universities of Egypt to counter the nationalist and the 7 leftist movement. And he had the president's support. 8 So, after that, after President Sadat was killed, he 9 was put in jail and I don't think he had any other role. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 11 MY-506, in evidence? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm showing you the cover of MY-506, this is 14 the cover of a book entitled "Political Islam" essays from 15 Middle East Report, correct? 16 A. Yes, that's correct. 17 Q. This is a book that you had in your possession and that the 18 FBI seized from your office, correct? 19 A. That is correct. 20 Q. Directing your attention to a particular chapter within the 21 book -- 22 Actually, your Honor, this chapter of this book was 23 received in evidence as Government Exhibit 2415-3. I have a 24 color copy of it that was provided as part of MY-506, although 25 I don't know that it was admitted again as part of MY-506. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9640 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 MY-506 may have been just the cover and the table of contents, 2 but I would ask that the color copy be admitted also as part of 3 MY-506. Or, if the Court prefers, I can give it a government 4 exhibit number. 5 THE COURT: Why don't you consult with Mr. Ruhnke. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, it is our understanding that 7 only the cover and table of contents are in evidence right now. 8 Ms. Baker wants to refer to the article inside. If she wants 9 to do that, we don't object to the article being admitted that 10 was -- we don't object to the article being admitted as part of 11 506. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm advised that 2415-3, which 13 is already in evidence, is in fact in color. So, if I may 14 display Government Exhibit 2415-3? 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. And there was the 17 limiting instruction with respect to this exhibit, admitted 18 only as to Mr. Yousry and not for the truth, and only for his 19 knowledge to his testifying. 20 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 21 Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is in evidence only 22 with respect to Mr. Yousry and not for the truth of any of the 23 contents, but only with respect to Mr. Yousry's knowledge, 24 intent and state of mind. 25 BY MS. BAKER: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9641 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge the top left portion of 2 what is now on the screen. 3 Mr. Yousry, do you recognize that as the top portion 4 of the first page of a chapter in the book "Political Islam?" 5 A. Yes, this particular copy -- this is not mine -- I mean, it 6 was found in my house but this is not my handwriting or 7 nothing, so. It was actually a part of a workshop and someone 8 was discussing this particular chapter and that was a handout. 9 So, yes, I do recognize it. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a moment? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a copy of MY-506 that also 16 has a copy of that same chapter attached; is that a chapter 17 from your copy of that book? 18 A. Yes. The color-coding, yes. That's mine. 19 Q. You put the color-coding on that copy? 20 A. Yes. I do that, yes. 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would offer that copy of the 22 chapter of the book. I'm happy to re-mark it as Government 23 Exhibit 735. 24 THE COURT: I think also that it's a chapter in 25 MY-506. MY-506 is previously in evidence with a cover and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9642 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 table of contents and I believe there is agreement that you can 2 also include that chapter as part of MY-506. 3 MR. RUHNKE: I think it would be confusing to change 4 the number. 5 THE COURT: Okay. So MY-506 now also includes that 6 chapter. 7 MS. BAKER: Thank you. May I approach and retrieve it 8 from the witness? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 And subject to the same limiting instruction. 11 BY MS. BAKER: 12 Q. Now, showing you again the first page of that chapter. The 13 chapter is entitled what does the Gama'a Islamiyya want, 14 correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And the chapter is an interview of Tal'at Fu'ad Qasim? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And as you testified a few minutes ago, he was a lieder the 19 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya? 20 A. He was either assassinated or killed or something happened 21 to him in 1992. Nobody knows, so. 22 Q. Prior to that he was leader of the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, 23 correct? 24 A. I believe he was the spokesperson, correct? 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't mean to interrupt. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9643 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 I'm at a little bit of disadvantage because I don't have a copy 2 of the materials that are being shown to my client. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MS. BAKER: If the government has an available version 5 of the one that was taken at the workshop? But I would like to 6 see this. 7 THE COURT: Absolutely. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would like the jury to see 9 the version that has Mr. Yousry's marking on it. 10 THE COURT: Hold on, hold on. There is no question 11 about that. Mr. Ruhnke just asked for what could be 2415-3. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Ms. Baker walks over and borrows my copy 13 and is now unhappy that I don't have my copy. 14 THE COURT: Right, okay. 15 MS. BAKER: Actually, this is my copy. 16 THE COURT: All right. Hold on while we work this 17 out, okay? 18 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MS. BAKER: I have handed Mr. Ruhnke a copy of 2415-3, 21 which is the same text with different marking. 22 THE COURT: All right. And if Mr. Ruhnke, you wanted 23 a break, or that's fine? 24 MR. RUHNKE: I just wanted to look at what is used. 25 THE COURT: All right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9644 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: May I display page 316? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 BY MS. BAKER: 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to the second question 5 and answer on the page that's now on the screen, and hopefully 6 we can all read it through the colored markings, but do you see 7 the question whether: Why and when was the military wing of 8 Al-Gama'a established? 9 A. I do see that, yes. 10 Q. And then the answer begins: In 1987, after the 11 establishment of the first Majlis al-shura, that's the 12 consulted counsel of the group, correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. Which I included then it has a list of names highlighted in 15 pink? 16 A. I do see that, yes. 17 Q. And the third name in that list is Najih Ibrahim. I was 18 asking you about him a few minutes ago? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And the fourth name is Salah Hashim? 21 A. Yes. 22 If you see, I made a correction on top. It says 1987 23 and I put two Xs and I wrote 1979. That is my own correction 24 of what this information is. So, I'm not accepting this 25 information to be true. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9645 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 As I said, he was a person who founded this movement, 2 he was aligning himself with the president, and he formed the 3 group in the universe and then they split with the president 4 and the government. After that he was put in jail and it was 5 somebody that you didn't hear about him until probably 2000 or 6 something where his name started to become more and more in the 7 papers when he writes his memoirs and stuff like that. 8 But that's my correction on the page, so. 9 Q. You were taking issue with what he felt was the date when 10 the military wing was established? 11 A. I think he was lying, yes. 12 Q. But the names that he listed there, you don't dispute that 13 those were names of people who were leaders of the group, do 14 you? 15 A. I don't think they were members of the military wing but I 16 don't know that. 17 I know that they were members of the group, yes. I 18 mean, nobody knows anything about that military wing, including 19 the Egyptian government, so. 20 Q. You also knew that Rifa't Ahmed Taha Musa was a leader of 21 the movement, correct? 22 A. I became familiar with this name, I believe, in 1998, 1999 23 when he was fired from that group. He was, I think, a leader 24 of the al-Shura assembly for about six months and he was fired 25 because he signed some declaration of anger or jihad in order SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9646 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 in order to help the Iraqi people and the movement, or the 2 leadership of the movement did not feel that they had an 3 international dimension. They always focused on local politics 4 in Egypt and I believe the, according to the articles that I 5 read about, that he was rebuked and fired. 6 So, that's what I know about him. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, when do you believe you learned who Rifa't Taha 8 was? 9 A. As a prominent member in 1999, 1998, yes. 10 Q. When do you believe that you learned that Rifa't Taha was a 11 leader of the Islamic Group? 12 A. I believe around that time. 13 Q. I'm sorry, around which time? 14 A. Around 1998, 1999. I don't think he was a leader before. 15 I mean, I don't know. My research ended in '95, so. 16 All the information after that was just information, so. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 18 Exhibit 2405-8 in evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as a news article that 21 the FBI found in your office? 22 A. This is actually one of the newspapers that reminds me of 23 the New York Post, so it is not something that you really 24 depend on that much. 25 But yes, I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9647 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. It was found in your office, correct? 2 A. It was, yes. 3 Q. And the article is dated in Arabic, July -- 4 A. Would you like me to read it? 5 Q. I would like to ask you some questions about it. 6 A. Sure, please. 7 Q. It's dated July 6, 1995, correct? 8 A. Yes, that -- yes. 9 Q. And the headline of the article states, in part: Five 10 Terrorists Incubated by Sudan; or something to that effect, 11 right? 12 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, your Honor. Is there an 13 English copy of this so that I could follow the testimony? 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 2000T, in 16 evidence, is the English translation of this document. May I 17 continue? 18 THE COURT: Hold on just one second. 19 MR. TIGAR: That's all right, your Honor. We will 20 find it. We will catch up later. 21 MS. BAKER: Would you like another copy, Mr. Tigar? 22 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 23 THE COURT: Okay. You may proceed. 24 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, does part of the headlines state, in substance, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9648 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Five Terrorists Incubated by Sudan? 2 A. Actually the headline reads: Accident News, and then goes 3 down to talk about that, so. 4 Q. I'm not necessarily asking you about the very top line, but 5 some portion of the big text at the top makes reference to 6 terrorists who were in the Sudan, correct? 7 A. Yes. Right after the accident news, yes. 8 Q. And then the headline lists five names, one of which is 9 Rifa't Taha, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. Now, Ms. Griffith, would you please switch to displaying 12 Government Exhibit 2000T? 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there was a limiting 14 instruction as to this. It was admitted only as to Mr. Yousry 15 and Mr. Sattar, according to our notes. 16 THE COURT: All right. I accept the representation 17 and I -- this exhibit was admitted only with respect to 18 Mr. Yousry and Mr. Sattar and -- 19 MR. TIGAR: It is a newspaper article. 20 THE COURT: -- it is a newspaper article and I have 21 given instructions with respect to newspaper articles, ladies 22 and gentlemen. It is not admitted for the truth of the matters 23 asserted but only with respect to the knowledge, intent and 24 state of mind in this case. 25 BY MS. BAKER: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9649 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge, please, the first 2 paragraph, the one that begins, "The five terrorist leaders." 3 Thank you. 4 Mr. Yousry, that paragraph begins: The five terrorist 5 leaders who have been incubated by the Turabi regime in Sudan 6 are at large. 7 Do you see that? 8 A. I do, yes. 9 Q. Then it goes on to state that those people were indicted in 10 1992, correct? 11 A. Yes, it does. 12 Q. And it says they were sentenced to death in absentia, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes, that is correct. 15 Q. And it says that it is alleged that they are leaders of 16 Islamic thinking, correct? 17 A. That is what it says, yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach and hand the 19 witness the original exhibit as well? 20 THE COURT: Yes. And whenever there is a convenient 21 time to take a break. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you wish to refer to the Arabic original, I 23 have just handed it to you, it is marked Government Exhibit 24 2405-8. 25 A. Thank you. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9650 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would go down to page 3 of the 2 translation, which is Government Exhibit 2000T; and, 3 Mr. Yousry, looking at the Arabic original, Government Exhibit 4 2405-8; after that original paragraph in the original article 5 that I was just reading from, the article then goes on to 6 discuss or say something about each of the people who the 7 article describes as terrorist leaders, correct? 8 A. Yes. It's full of hearsay. People were sentenced to death 9 based on somebody else that he said this, she said that. 10 This is all hearsay. This isn't something I would 11 consider to use in my own research. 12 Q. It names each of the five people, correct? 13 A. It does. It says that on the top and it names each one 14 with a bullet next to it. 15 Q. And, in fact, on the original news article the names next 16 to the bullets have been underlined in red ink, correct? 17 A. I can't tell you who underlined that. I don't have any 18 recollection of this article, so. 19 Q. Now, the third leader who is named and then discussed in 20 this article is Rifa't Ahmed Taha? 21 A. Yes, it is there. Yes. 22 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge the lower portion of the 23 page, not just that paragraph? Thank you. 24 Now, right after it names Taha as Rifa't Ahmed Taha, 25 it notes that his alias is Abu Yassir, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9651 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 A. That's what it says, yes. 2 Q. And Ms. Griffith, if you would go up to -- I'm sorry, go 3 back to page 2, please, and show the first full paragraph on 4 page 2. Sorry, the next paragraph. Thank you. 5 In that paragraph part of what it states, starting on 6 the second line, it makes reference to the group's leadership 7 in Afghanistan? 8 A. That's what it does, yes. 9 Q. And then it continues, which included Rifa't Ahmed Taha, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. It says that. Yes. 12 Q. Ms. Griffith, are you able to display, side by side, 13 Government Exhibit 2405-8, which is the one we were just 14 discussing and also, your Honor, if we might display Government 15 Exhibit 2000, in evidence, side by side with it? 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, those two are identical, correct? One is the 18 original article and the other is a photocopy of it? 19 A. Yes. They look -- yes. 20 Q. Did you give a copy of this article to Mr. Sattar? 21 A. I really have no recollection about this article. I don't 22 know who gave it to me or -- it's a newspaper that I do not buy 23 and I don't read it so I'm not sure what that is. I have no 24 recollection of it. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, this would be a convenient SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9652 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 time for a break. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take 10 minutes. Please 4 remember my continuing instructions. Don't talk about the case 5 at all, please keep an open mind until you have heard all the 6 evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have gone 7 to the jury room to begin deliberations. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. See you 11 shortly. 12 (Recess) 13 (Page 9653 SEALED by order of the Court) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9654 4BN5SAT5 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry on the stand. Bring in the jury. 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 BY MS. BAKER: 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you three items marked for 16 identification as Government's Exhibits 2421-2, that's the 17 envelope with its contents. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And 2421-2B, that's the clipped together article, and 20 2421-2BT. 21 Do you recognize Government Exhibit 2421-2 as an 22 envelope of news articles that you had in your office? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9655 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER: 2 Q. And that's a collection of news articles that you clipped 3 and saved, correct? 4 A. May I take a look at them? 5 Q. Sure. 6 A. Thank you. Yes, this actually contains several articles, 7 couple of newspapers. And there are markings on them, post 8 notes -- Post-it notes. And it says 25-02. I don't think this 9 is mine, but, yes, I do. 10 Q. The envelope of articles was seized from your office by the 11 FBI, correct? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. So the Post-it notes may have been added later, but you 14 were the person who clipped and saved the articles, correct? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Now, 2421-2B, that's a set of articles that was part of 17 that envelope, correct? 18 A. 2421-2B, probably, yes. 19 Q. Well, generally, as was stipulated to in this case, the 20 articles in that envelope relate to the attack that occurred at 21 Luxor in November 1997, correct? 22 A. Yes, it said the Luxor incident, yes. 23 Q. And that's part of what is discussed in 2421-2B, that 24 particular article or set of articles, correct? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9656 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, these articles that are marked as 2421-2B, those are 2 from Al-Hayat, correct? 3 A. The one right here, it is, yes. 4 Q. And just to be clear, it's marked on the front 2421-2B, 5 correct? 6 A. Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't looking at that. Yes, that's what 7 the exhibit number -- yes, thank you. Yes. 8 Q. Those are from Al-Hayat, correct? 9 A. Yes, it is Al-Hayat newspaper, yes. 10 Q. And they're from the issue of Al-Hayat dated November 18, 11 1997, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. Tuesday, yes. 13 Q. Now, the articles originally were all stapled together. 14 They were taken apart for photocopying, but if you turn it so 15 that the page with the exhibit sticker is at the bottom and 16 look at the three smaller articles that are attached at the 17 back, if you look at the top one attached at the back, is that 18 an article that's headed something like trial of 65 members -- 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, is this in evidence? 20 THE COURT: I -- 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm willing to offer it, or 22 I'd like to just ask Mr. Yousry about part of it. Either way. 23 THE COURT: Take a moment to consult. 24 MR. TIGAR: May I? 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, there is, I believe, actually SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9657 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 a stipulation on this that in lieu of offering the contents of 2 this envelope, the stipulation will take its place. So I 3 object to now going into the contents. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I speak with Mr. Ruhnke 5 for a moment. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, there is a stipulation, and I 8 think we need to look at it before we go into this line. The 9 stipulation was agreed to by the government. 10 THE COURT: OK. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Do you have it? 12 MS. BAKER: We probably do. Do you have a minute? 13 THE COURT: Sure. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor -- 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could I talk to Mr. Morvillo 16 for a second. 17 THE COURT: Sure. If this can't be worked out 18 quickly, could I suggest that we take it up at the end of the 19 day. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we'll come back to it. 21 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 22 BY MS. BAKER: 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, on direct examination -- you can put those 24 exhibits aside. 25 On direct examination do you recall being asked the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9658 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 following questions and giving the following answers, and I'm 2 reading now from transcript page 9166: 3 "Q. Do you recall discussions in this case of an 4 interview in Al-Quds newspaper of Mr. Taha? 5 "A. I do remember that, yes." 6 And then skipping down a couple of questions and 7 answers later. 8 "Q. Do you recall being asked at some point to read 9 that interview to Sheikh Rahman? 10 "A. Not only to Sheikh Rahman. I thought that if 11 I was able to read that interview, it would help me in my 12 dissertation, even though I wasn't thinking of writing anything 13 about him." 14 Now, when you said "him" there, you were referring to 15 Taha, correct, because that's -- 16 A. That is correct. 17 Q. -- who the interview was of? 18 And then your answer continued at the end period -- 19 sorry. Let me start that again. 20 And the end period of my dissertation was 1995, and he 21 was not mentioned once even in my dissertation because to me he 22 was an insignificant figure up until 1995. 23 Do you remember giving that testimony? 24 A. I do. I think it's up until 1998, but, yes. 25 Q. I'm sorry. You think what? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9659 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 A. I probably misspoke. Maybe up until 1998, I meant. But 2 that's -- yeah, I did say that. Yes. 3 Q. Is it now your testimony that Taha was an insignificant 4 figure up until 1998? Is that what you're saying? 5 A. I didn't know that Taha is an important figure in that 6 movement until 1998, I think, when he was fired from that 7 leadership. So I'm not really sure I understand the question 8 but I'm trying my best. 9 Q. The record reflects that your testimony was that Taha was 10 an insignificant figure up until 1995. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I'm asking you whether that's still your testimony. 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. Or whether you -- please let me finish my question. 15 Do you wish to adhere to that testimony or do you wish 16 to amend it to change the date? 17 A. No, I think that's correct, yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 19 MY550LT2 in evidence. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would show initially 22 the first page of MY550LT2. And if you would just enlarge the 23 text portion, not including the footnotes, just from the top of 24 the page down to the bottom of the main text. 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize that as a draft of a portion SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9660 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 of your dissertation that was introduced during your direct 2 testimony? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. And this is a document that you wrote, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show, please, page six of 7 MY550LT2 and highlight the paragraph at the bottom of the page. 8 Could you enlarge that, please. Sorry, maybe I called it the 9 wrong date. Oh, thank you. I'm sorry. 10 May I instead have the top paragraph on that same 11 page, page six -- you've got it there. 12 Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to the last 13 portion of that paragraph at the top of page six. Do you see 14 where that first full sentence on the page -- sorry, the second 15 full sentence on the page ends by saying, the leaders of 16 al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, such as Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 17 Mohammed Abdel, Salam Fareg, Sheikh Abu Talal al-Qassemi and 18 Sheikh Omar's "outside lieutenant," Sheikh Rifa'i Taha? 19 A. Yeah, I do see that, yeah. That's outside. I didn't study 20 anybody outside, so it's still insignificant. That's my 21 understanding so... 22 Q. This is a portion you drafted as part of your work on your 23 dissertation, correct? 24 A. It is correct, yes. 25 Q. Now, when you were working on your dissertation earlier, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9661 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 before the focus narrowed to focussing primarily on Sheikh Omar 2 Abdel Rahman, you had actually gathered a fair amount of 3 information relating to Rifa'i Taha and his involvement in the 4 group's early history, had you not? 5 A. I do not recall that. Maybe I did. That was about ten 6 years ago or something so I don't recall. 7 Q. Ms. Griffith, you can take down that exhibit 8 Mr. Yousry, do you recall learning as part of your 9 research into the Islamic Group and its leadership that 10 following Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's teachings, many of the 11 activists connected with the group joined the mujahadeen in 12 Afghanistan? 13 A. I remembered this portion, yes. 14 Q. And do you remember learning that part of their reason for 15 doing that was to gain military and leadership experience? 16 A. That is according to my research, yes. 17 Q. And according to your research, those leaders or members of 18 the group who had been with the mujahadeen in Afghanistan, when 19 they returned to Egypt, they helped to organize the Islamic 20 Group's military wing on a national level, correct? 21 A. I believe that is correct, yes. 22 Q. And one of those people was Rifa'i Taha, correct? 23 A. Maybe, yes. 24 Q. Mr. Yousry, didn't you write that Rifa'i Taha, quote, who 25 was entrusted by the shura assembly and approved by the Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9662 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 to become the actual ground leader of the organization, 2 unquote, played a major -- 3 A. Go ahead, yes. 4 Q. Played a major part in organizing training camps for the 5 movement in Afghanistan and for rebuilding its military wing in 6 Egypt? 7 A. I probably wrote that, yes. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you obtain that information that Taha had 9 been entrusted by the shura assembly and approved by the Sheikh 10 to become the ground leader of the Islamic Group, did you 11 obtain that information from Ahmed Abdel Sattar? 12 A. I actually don't recall. I have to read that. I don't 13 recall. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a document marked for 17 identification as Government Exhibit 706A. Do you recognize 18 that as a document that you wrote as part of your work on your 19 dissertation? 20 A. These are rough notes. These are not drafts even. They 21 are mostly notes that I did not use in my dissertation at all. 22 So I do not recall actually most of what's written here. I 23 have to read it, but, yes, it is a rough note -- it is not even 24 coherent. Every six, seven pages you have a different topic. 25 But it's a rough note about the al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya and how SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9663 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 it went through stages. 2 Other than that, I did not use it at all. So probably 3 this was written long time ago, collected from various sources, 4 but it was not used. 5 Q. Directing your attention to page 21 of the document. If 6 you would look, please, at the top paragraph on that page. 7 A. I do see that, yes. 8 Q. Do you see the sentence that I was just reading that begins 9 Rifa'i Taha? 10 A. Yes, I do see the footnotes, yes. 11 Q. In the middle of that sentence there's a footnote 47, 12 correct? 13 A. Yes, I do see that, yes. 14 Q. And when you look at the bottom of the page in footnote 47, 15 it says in its entirety, Ahmed Sattar, correct? 16 A. That's what it says. It doesn't say anything else, yes. 17 Q. And, again, as you explained earlier today, the function of 18 a footnote in a document like this is to indicate the source of 19 the information in the text, correct? 20 A. That is correct, yes. There are two footnotes actually 21 related to the same topic, one from a book by Hisham Mubarak, 22 and the other one was from Mr. Sattar, yes. 23 Q. And just to be clear, let me read the part of the sentence 24 that ends with the footnote 47, which is the footnote that 25 cites Mr. Sattar. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9664 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 A. Go ahead. 2 Q. The part that has the footnote to Mr. Sattar says, Rifa'i 3 Taha, quote, who was entrusted by the shura assembly -- 4 MR. PAUL: Objection. This is not in evidence. She's 5 reading from something not in evidence. 6 THE COURT: All right. Sustained. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, this was pursuant to the 8 colloquy that we had earlier today. I'm happy to offer the 9 document into evidence. 10 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, we should take this up at a 11 recess. 12 THE COURT: OK, let's take it up at the recess. 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, actually it's 4:25, and this 14 document is necessary for a line of questions. 15 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we're 16 going to break for the day. Let me just remind you and give 17 you the schedule. 18 We're going to sit tomorrow, as I've previously told 19 you, until noon when we will break. After we're breaking for 20 the Thanksgiving holiday tomorrow at noon, next week we're 21 sitting for a complete week. We're going to sit on Tuesday, 22 however, only until 3:00, and on Thursday only until 3:45. But 23 next week we're going to sit Monday through Thursday, except 24 we're breaking a little earlier on Tuesday and Thursday. 25 With that we're going to break for the day. Please, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9665 4bnesat6 Yousry - cross 1 ladies and gentlemen, remember to follow all of my 2 instructions. Please, don't talk about this case at all. 3 Please, remember, don't look at, don't talk about the case at 4 all among yourselves or with anyone when you go home. Please, 5 remember, don't look at or listen to anything to do with the 6 case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 7 please, simply turn away. Don't look at or listen to anything 8 to do with the case. 9 And finally, always remember to keep an open mind 10 until you've heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on 11 the law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your 12 deliberations. Fairness and justice to the parties requires 13 that you do that. 14 With that, have a very good evening. I look forward 15 to seeing you tomorrow. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9666 4bnesat6 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, may I be excused. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I also leave. 5 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, this is the issue that we 7 argued at some length earlier. And as I made clear, if 8 Mr. Yousry was going to say yes to every question, then I 9 wouldn't have to physically employ the document. But where 10 there are issues, I have to be able to confront him with the 11 document, and that's what I was trying to do. 12 He was essentially -- I don't want to say quibbling, 13 but there was some issue as to the footnote and what the 14 footnote related to. And I was trying to establish that fact 15 by reading the relevant portion of the document. I thought 16 that the ruling or the agreement earlier was that I could 17 employ the document by reading from it, if necessary, in lieu 18 of offering the whole thing into evidence. 19 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, my understanding of the Court's 20 ruling was it was clearly a way for the government to bring out 21 the points they wish to bring out without introducing the 22 document, and that, in fact, as with any document that's marked 23 for identification, if a witness did not recall something 24 specific, they could look at it, does that refresh your 25 recollection, and respond in that way. That was what I thought SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9667 4bnesat6 1 the government was going to do. And, in fact, I thought they 2 achieved that with regard to the questioning of Mr. Yousry. 3 She asked specific questions about the entry of Taha. 4 She asked whether or not there was a footnote. She went into 5 the fact as to what the basis of footnotes are with regard to 6 them being a source of the information. He responded, yes, he 7 responded Sattar was the footnoted source. She achieved what 8 she wished. 9 To then go back and read specifically from the 10 document, after I believe he acknowledged that that was in this 11 document was improper. 12 THE COURT: Actually, I -- it is -- it's not clear to 13 me from the testimony that he did acknowledge that, though 14 there would have been a fair objection -- first of all, the 15 document could be used to refresh his recollection. 16 Second, it could be used as a prior, for example, 17 inconsistent statement: Did you say that whatever it was about 18 Taha, because I didn't -- I didn't hear that there was a 19 reference to the specific language that was reported there. 20 MR. PAUL: I believe there was. And quite frankly, 21 your Honor, not only was it referred to by Ms. Baker; she 22 improperly referred to it, if I may. She went to the document 23 and she asked Mr. Yousry -- Mr. Yousry whether or not, which I 24 believe -- I don't have the transcript in front of me, but she 25 referred to the quote where it says, he, Rifa'i Taha, quote, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9668 4bnesat6 1 who was entrusted by the shura assembly and approved by the 2 Sheikh to become the actual ground leader of the organization, 3 end quote; then she went on to read, played a major part in 4 organizing training camps for the movement in Afghanistan and 5 for rebuilding its military wing in Egypt, a second footnote to 6 that part. And that second footnote does not relate to 7 Mr. Sattar, which is exactly what Mr. Yousry was attempting to 8 point out in his answers. 9 He said there were two footnotes. Part of that, what 10 you've just read to me, came from Mr. Sattar; the second 11 footnote came from someone, Hisham Mubarak. Now, that was 12 improper, I think, for Ms. Baker to suggest to the jury that 13 entire statement came from Mr. Sattar. And that's why I was 14 objecting to her reading it the way she did. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if you would look back at the 16 transcript, I was actually making two different points. And at 17 the time that Mr. Paul objected, I was actually trying to 18 clarify and establish the very point that he just said. 19 Initially I read the full sentence because I was using it as a 20 prior inconsistent statement of Mr. Yousry's, inconsistent with 21 his testimony on direct examination that Taha had been an 22 insignificant figure. 23 And so the full sentence, including the part about how 24 Taha, quote, played a major part in organizing training camps 25 for the movement in Afghanistan and for rebuilding its military SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9669 4bnesat6 1 wing in Egypt, is impeachment of Mr. Yousry by prior 2 inconsistent statement. And it was for that purpose that I 3 read the entire sentence. 4 I then asked him whether part of the sentence -- I 5 don't remember exactly how I phrased it -- but whether part of 6 the sentence was sourced to Mr. Sattar. He said in essence, 7 yes, and another part was sourced to this other person. And I 8 was trying to then establish which specific part was attributed 9 to Mr. Sattar when the objection was made. 10 So I'm not trying to attribute the whole sentence to 11 Mr. Sattar. I absolutely agree that the document makes clear 12 that only up until the middle of the sentence where footnote 47 13 appears is attributable to Mr. Sattar, and that is what I was 14 trying to establish. 15 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, if that's the case, then I have 16 no objection to Ms. Baker tomorrow clarifying where, in fact, 17 she's making a reference to Mr. Sattar as being the source of 18 this entry. 19 THE COURT: All right. Let me -- 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, as to the issue that had come 21 up a little bit earlier relating to Government Exhibit 2421-2B, 22 Mr. Ruhnke had requested to see a copy of a prior stipulation 23 that relates to the issue. I'm handing it to him now. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the stipulation which is 25 marked 2421S does refresh my recollection as to what occurred. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9670 4bnesat6 1 These were -- as your Honor will recall, we worked out every 2 issue there was with regard to the search of Mr. Yousry's 3 apartment. And one of the issues we had was whether the 4 contents of this envelope -- I forget what the number of the 5 envelope -- Government Exhibit 2421, whether the contents of 6 2421 should come into evidence. 7 We agreed to the stipulation in lieu of the government 8 introducing the contents of 2421, which is that the -- among 9 the articles contained in the exhibit were reports of basically 10 the Luxor attack and what was concerned -- what was connected 11 with the Luxor attack. This was -- this was part of an 12 agreement that they would -- we would, in lieu of going to the 13 contents of that exhibit, 2421, the government was contenting 14 with this stipulation. 15 So I don't think it's proper for the government to at 16 this point to begin going into the contents of that exhibit. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Mr. Morvillo negotiated the 18 stipulation and he isn't here. 19 But it's my understanding that the stipulation was to 20 avoid needing the Court to intervene to rule on 401, 403 21 objections to the contents of the entire envelope. And 22 actually, to correct the record, the envelope full of articles 23 is Government Exhibit 2421-2. That's the full envelope. 24 And the envelope contains more than 30 news articles, 25 most of which relate primarily to the terrorist attack at Luxor SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9671 4bnesat6 1 in November 1997. And in lieu of a collection of articles that 2 really went into a lot of great detail about that exhibit and 3 had some photographs and could have been argued to be 4 prejudicial, the government entered into a stipulation that 5 essentially summarized the contents of the exhibit by 6 describing the articles as articles relating to the Luxor 7 attack, and noting that the articles conveyed certain specific 8 points of information relating to the Luxor attack. 9 My purpose now is an entirely different one. There is 10 one article in the one particular set of articles that were in 11 that envelope, and the one particular set of articles that were 12 attached here is now marked as 2421-2B. And that article 13 actually is not about the Luxor attack. It is an article 14 headed, Trial of 65 Members of al-Gama'a Starts in Front of 15 Military Court in Cairo. And it makes reference to Rifa'i Taha 16 as a leader of the group. 17 I am seeking to use that article merely to impeach 18 Mr. Yousry's testimony as to when he had information about 19 Taha, because this article is dated November 18, 1997, as 20 Mr. Yousry has now acknowledged. So I would respectfully 21 submit that this purpose for using the article is essentially 22 completely outside the parameters of the stipulation. 23 I don't intend to violate the stipulation by even 24 introducing this article, let alone any of the articles that 25 talk about the Luxor attack. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9672 4bnesat6 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would never have entered 2 into an agreement that said, we will stipulate to what's in 3 there to the points that you want and, by the way, when it 4 comes to cross-examination, you can use anything in there 5 anyhow. 6 This was an agreement that was reached in lieu of the 7 government offering documents, several documents, all the 8 documents that were contained in that envelope. The government 9 said, there's certain points we need to make from what's in 10 there. We said, what are those points? The government said, 11 these are the points. They worked their way into the 12 stipulation, and we thought that was the end of what the 13 stipulation refers to as Government Exhibit 2421. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, respectfully, there has been a 15 material change in circumstances since the time the government 16 negotiated and entered into the stipulation. And I don't 17 intend to walk away from it; that's not what I mean at all. 18 But the government could not have foreseen at the time it 19 negotiated the stipulation, which the government viewed as 20 addressing the Luxor attack as subject matter, that there would 21 be a need to confront Mr. Yousry with information relating to 22 Taha. 23 MR. RUHNKE: I mean, this whole topic is, when did 24 Mr. Yousry know that Mr. Taha was a significant figure? Where 25 this is obviously going is when it's time for redirect, when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9673 4bnesat6 1 the FBI questioned him on the day he was arrested, he told them 2 he knew all about who Taha was as a prior consistent statement. 3 This is also going into the post 9/11 interviews that the 4 government is setting up. 5 So this is a small point, but when we entered this 6 kind of stipulation, I think the government shouldn't raise 7 material circumstances have changed. 8 THE COURT: I tend to agree with that. There has been 9 at least one other stipulation where at least one of the 10 parties reconsidered entering into the stipulation, and the 11 government argued that the stipulation was an admission and I 12 accepted that. And the notion that it is a matter of 13 significance that there is a newspaper article contained in 14 that group and the parties worked out a careful stipulation to 15 get through all of this just is -- should not be a matter of 16 great moment. 17 And if the sole basis for the -- for this point is 18 that -- is a newspaper article contained in a group of other 19 newspaper articles that was not so significant that it was 20 singled out initially, it really doesn't appear to be such a -- 21 an element of changed circumstances that would rise to the 22 level of change in what appears to be the thrust of the -- what 23 the parties had worked out in the stipulation. 24 So based upon what the parties have told me and the 25 gist of the stipulation -- and Mr. Morvillo isn't here but I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9674 4bnesat6 1 recall the stipulation being described to me and the purpose 2 and intent of the stipulation. And what Mr. Ruhnke says is 3 consistent with my recollection of how the parties described it 4 to me initially and how it was raised to the jury. 5 Let me raise another question. First of all, there is 6 the issue of the response to the government's supplemental 7 request to charge on Blakely. And I don't see Mr. Morvillo or 8 Mr. Barkow, they left at the end of the day. So I assume that 9 the government is preparing a response to the defendants' 10 supplemental request to charge. 11 I repeat what I said earlier: I need an opportunity 12 to review the supplemental request to charge and the responses 13 and the opportunity to draft a -- my own draft charge. So what 14 did you want to say to me, Mr. Ruhnke, because you are -- 15 MR. RUHNKE: I want to just make a plea for as much 16 time as we can have. I think I wait -- 17 THE COURT: Thursday? 18 MR. RUHNKE: As in the day after tomorrow? 19 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to produce it on 20 Thanksgiving. But what's the -- 21 MR. RUHNKE: We wanted a week to reply, your Honor. 22 We wanted a week to reply. 23 THE COURT: What's the government's position? I 24 suspect that it's -- there are two issues. One is the 25 defendants' response to the government request, and the other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9675 4bnesat6 1 is the government response to the defense request. And 2 Ms. Baker wanted until tomorrow to look at the issue of First 3 Amendment request. 4 I see that there are -- some of this material is 5 interlocking, because I've gotten requests from at least one of 6 the defendants to give charges on the First Amendment. And you 7 were going to get back to me I know tomorrow morning, 8 Ms. Baker, on what you wanted to do about the government's 9 First Amendment request. 10 MS. BAKER: Right. And perhaps this wasn't what the 11 Court wanted, but my hope was just to respond to the Court 12 orally on that tomorrow morning. 13 THE COURT: That's -- that's all right. 14 MS. BAKER: OK. 15 THE COURT: But, I mean, I wasn't even sure whether, I 16 mean, whether you were -- I mean, the initial question is: Is 17 the government continuing to propound its initial request on 18 the First Amendment and give me the Rahman transcript, and then 19 the defendant has to have an opportunity to respond; but maybe 20 they'll say they don't want to respond. I don't know. 21 But, yes, I mean that you can respond to orally. My 22 question would be, is the government going to be responding 23 tomorrow to the defendants' request to charge? 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my understanding was that the 25 schedule was that we were supposed to be responding today, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9676 4bnesat6 1 and -- 2 THE COURT: Yes, it was. 3 MS. BAKER: And I believe that we expect to comply 4 with that deadline and serve and file something later tonight. 5 THE COURT: OK, that's fine. 6 MS. BAKER: That is where Mr. Barkow has gone, in 7 fact. 8 THE COURT: That's fine. 9 And the defendants can respond today and leave -- but 10 leaving open the Blakely issue. 11 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, first, my understanding was 12 that all the responses were due tomorrow and not today, but -- 13 THE COURT: No, I think it really was -- I had said 14 Monday and then Tuesday. 15 MR. TIGAR: Then I am not only in error, but sadly in 16 error. 17 THE COURT: But I'm -- I would be happy -- I would be 18 satisfied to give both the government and the defendants until 19 tomorrow to respond to each other's, leaving open solely the 20 Blakely issue. That's fine. That would give a little more 21 time to both sides, leaving open the Blakely issue. 22 MR. TIGAR: In addition to my own evident confusion, I 23 rise to support Mr. Ruhnke's view and request for a week. And 24 the reasons are this: It's not simply the Blakely issue, which 25 raises a number of questions that we are even now researching. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9677 4bnesat6 1 And some of the complexity of those is illustrated by -- now 2 we've looked at the Supreme Court briefs, the 3 what-are-we-going-to-do briefs. But the government's proposals 4 with their series of instructions as to what is not a defense 5 and what Mr. Clark said and so on raised some issues. 6 They then recall the Court's resuming with respect to 7 the Dennis Bryson issue. Then now we're told that there will 8 also be -- and it's not unexpected, that the government will be 9 taking a position that the First Amendment view or non-First 10 Amendment view taken by Judge Mukasey would also apply here in 11 this case. 12 The ways in which the First Amendment protects the 13 conduct at issue here are raising issues that are very much 14 more complex than in the Rahman trial, we respectfully suggest, 15 because of the very different roles of the participants here. 16 That was a trial of a bunch of people engaged in seditious 17 conspiracy, allegedly. 18 So that's the reason. I'm just -- I'm supporting 19 Mr. Ruhnke's application because we do want to be of maximum 20 help to the Court. And this is an issue that -- about which we 21 feel that the time is necessary in order to present our 22 position. 23 THE COURT: My -- it's clear that both sides have been 24 spending a reasonable amount of time looking at these issues in 25 order to produce their own request to charge. And it was -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9678 4bnesat6 1 the more time that I give all of you to respond, the less time 2 that I have to consider what it is that you have to give me to 3 do the research and to draft the charge. And that's -- that is 4 my issue. 5 I really had said today, I mean I had said 6 supplemental requests to charge. I had originally asked for 7 them earlier, but in response to in particular the government's 8 plea, I put it over until yesterday and then said responses, 9 objections today. 10 Let me talk to you about the schedule. And we can do 11 this at the side bar. By the way, is -- Mr. Paul, is there a 12 problem in terms of time for your client? 13 MR. PAUL: I don't believe today, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: OK. 15 (Pages 9679 through 9691 sealed by order of the Court) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9679 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MOHAMMED YOUSRY 4 Direct By Ms. Baker: . . . . . . . . . . . . 9509 5 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 727 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9559 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300