9503 4BN5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 23, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9504 4BN5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: A preliminary matter. 3 The government had asked at one time for a charge on a 4 First Amendment similar to the one that Judge Mukasey gave in 5 the Rahman case. And my first question is, I didn't see that 6 repeated in the government's request to charge, I don't think, 7 last night. 8 And so, my question was, was the government still 9 asking that a charge like that be given? 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if we could answer your 11 Honor's question tomorrow morning that would be helpful. I 12 have, a little bit, lost track of what the Judge Mukasey charge 13 was and how that compares to other requests that we have made 14 subsequently. For example, during Ms. Stewart's direct we 15 requested an instruction that talked more broadly about 16 constitutionality. 17 So, I would need to look at various things side by 18 side to answer your Honor's question in a useful way. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 The second thing that I wanted to raise in that 21 connection was if you still were looking for that or a similar 22 instruction, you could give me the copies of the transcript 23 pages from Judge Mukasey's charge. And then, finally, I would 24 give the defendants the opportunity to give me any objections 25 to that charge if there are any. Defendants might agree with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9505 4BN5SAT1 1 it. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just -- we don't have to talk 3 about this or decide this right now. You received last night 4 or this morning copies of the government's supplemental 5 requests including a long discussion of Blakely applicability. 6 We are going to ask for more time then tomorrow afternoon in 7 which to reply that. Perhaps we can take it up at the break as 8 to how long we are going to ask for. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Realistically it's going to be a long 11 time before we fully get to charging the jury. Realistically 12 your Honor needs to prepare a charge in advance, well in 13 advance of that time -- 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. RUHNKE: -- and try to accommodate both of those. 16 THE COURT: I do need time to consider both what the 17 government gives me, what the defense gives me and my own 18 research on those issues. It's not something that I can turn 19 around overnight. 20 MR. RUHNKE: We are aware of that. We're trying to 21 accommodate those interests but the Blakely stuff kind of came 22 out of the blue. We weren't expecting -- especially since the 23 Second Circuit says the guidelines are still in effect and the 24 Supreme Court says otherwise. We didn't anticipate this 25 particular gloss to the government's charge request. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9506 4BN5SAT1 1 THE COURT: I can talk to you about that at the 2 appropriate time. 3 MR. RUHNKE: That's all we are asking right now. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And the Supreme Court may remove 5 all of these questions at any time. 6 MR. RUHNKE: That's correct. Or may not act until 7 July. 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 9 MR. RUHNKE: Or may not act until July. 10 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the lawyers in that case for 11 the case that came out of Wisconsin do say that they're 12 anticipating a decision on November 30th. I don't know the 13 basis for that. Ms. Shellow-Lavine has been in contact with 14 them. 15 THE COURT: All right. Are we ready to bring out the 16 jury? 17 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: All right. I will give the preliminary 19 instruction that I had indicated last night, and Mr. Yousry is 20 on the stand. 21 Everyone is ready? 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Dember is running a 23 little late this morning but he will hopefully join us soon. 24 THE COURT: That's not a problem. 25 (Pause) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9507 4BN5SAT1 1 THE COURT: The jurors aren't quite ready yet. 2 While we have a moment, on the Blakely issue, one of 3 the things that would be useful for me to put on the subject of 4 the various Blakely options is to know what other judges have 5 done. 6 My -- I believe that judges follow different practices 7 in this district with respect to that issue and I don't know 8 any of the other Judges that had written or spoken on that. 9 Whether there are any decisions out there on that. 10 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm not aware of any decisions 11 but we will check with our appeals unit which would be keeping 12 track of such matters. 13 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Baker. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there is a Blakely sentencing 15 website -- I don't have the URL here, we could also provide 16 that -- a law professor runs it and collects a great deal of 17 this information. 18 And also at the GoldsteinHowe.com website, Tom 19 Goldstein, who is a Supreme Court practitioner, has been 20 collecting some of these matters that I can recall seeing. 21 MS. BAKER: Is your Honor interested in knowing what 22 has been happening in other circuits or just in the Second 23 Circuit? 24 I mean, I assume your Honor is aware, for example, I 25 believe it's the Ninth Circuit has said that now juries must SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9508 4BN5SAT1 1 make factual findings on sentence enhancing issues. 2 So, what some other circuits at least are doing is 3 completely not relevant because the Second Circuit obviously, 4 conversely to the Ninth, has said that as of right now the 5 guidelines remain in effect with the Judge determining 6 sentencing enhancements. 7 THE COURT: I am most interested in the Second 8 Circuit. I realize that the Judges in this Court were split 9 before Mincey on what to do with the sentencing guidelines. 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, while we are waiting for the 11 jury, I wonder if we can ask the court reporter to give us 12 LiveNote assistance? We are writing one line, I think that is 13 a function of the file being too full but I don't know how to 14 fix it. 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9509 4BN5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, as a preliminary matter, you 6 have heard testimony and may continue to hear testimony from 7 Mr. Yousry about conclusions he reached in his research. This 8 testimony is offered only with respect to Mr. Yousry and only 9 as to his knowledge, intent and state of mind and not for the 10 truth of the historical events described. 11 All right. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 12 Mr. Fletcher? 13 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 14 you are still under oath. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 16 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, (resumed) 17 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 18 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 19 DIRECT EXAMINATION 20 BY MS. BAKER:: 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, before we pick up where we left off yesterday, 22 let me ask you about a few miscellaneous odds and ends. 23 I asked you a series of questions yesterday regarding 24 your post-high school education. 25 A. I remember that, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9510 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Did I omit everything or did we go through your entire 2 educational background since high school? 3 A. I think we did not discuss the New School for Social 4 Research. 5 Q. Okay, that was once you came to the United States in 6 between your work at CUNY and at NYU, correct? 7 A. That is correct. Yes. 8 Q. And remind us again, what did you study at the New School? 9 A. I believe it was political economy. I didn't finish, I 10 transferred to NYU. 11 Q. You transferred those credits to NYU? 12 A. Right. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up and 14 talk into the microphone. Thank you. 15 Q. During your direct testimony by Mr. Ruhnke there were a 16 number of transcripts that were introduced into evidence of 17 calls that were recorded on your home telephone. Do you 18 remember those transcripts? 19 A. I do. 20 Q. I believe you testified, in response to Mr. Ruhnke's 21 questions, that you had listened to the recordings that 22 corresponded to each of those transcripts, is that right? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. And were those recordings accurate recordings of telephone 25 conversations that you actually had? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9511 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe so. Yes. 2 Q. Now, in the government's case there were several other 3 transcripts and recordings introduced of a few other telephone 4 conversations that you had had. 5 Do you remember those? 6 A. I believe so. Yes. 7 Q. And had you listened to those recordings as well? 8 A. I did. 9 Q. Those were also accurate recordings of telephone 10 conversations that you had? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, I asked you some questions yesterday, and you had also 13 given some testimony on direct examination about the exhibits 14 marked MY-550LT-3 and MY-550LT-4? 15 A. Is that my dissertation? 16 Q. Those are two pieces, two drafts of parts of your 17 dissertation, correct? 18 A. Yes, that's correct. 19 Q. And I believe you testified on direct that actually those 20 two particular documents out of the four that were put into 21 evidence on your direct, those exhibits were two parts of one 22 chapter relating to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Now, you testified in response to one of my questions 25 yesterday that MY-550LT-3 is a draft that's dated January 19th SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9512 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 of 2000, is that right? 2 A. I believe that's the date on the draft, yes. 3 Q. And the other part of that chapter, MY-550LT-4, was that 4 drafted at around the same time? 5 A. I think that particular chapter I was done with the first 6 draft in 1999, early 2000. I did some work on it after. I 7 handed it in, I got some comments back and I was working on it. 8 So, I believe some parts of this particular chapter I 9 was working on it, I believe, up to late 2001, early 2002 -- I 10 believe that the first 30 pages or 35 pages of that particular 11 chapter. 12 Q. That's the part that you were revising later on? 13 A. Yes, I was. 14 THE COURT: Yes, one juror raised the juror's hand. 15 Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up and speak into 16 the microphone. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I will. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. 19 MS. BAKER: May I ask, did the court reporter get the 20 last question and answer? She's shaking her head yes -- 21 THE COURT: Well, because the juror raised the juror's 22 hand I would ask that the juror read back the last two 23 questions and answers. 24 MS. BAKER: You mean the court reporter, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. The court reporter, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9513 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 misspoke. Thank you. 2 If the court reporter would read back the last two 3 questions and answers? Thank you. 4 And Mr. Yousry, please keep your voice up. 5 (Record read) 6 BY MS. BAKER: 7 Q. Just to clarify that last question and answer, a couple of 8 answers ago you made reference to the first 30 or 35 pages. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So, I was trying to clarify, you were saying that that 11 part, the first 30 or 35 pages is the part that you were 12 revising later on into 2001? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Now, turning back to information that you knew about Sheikh 15 Omar Abdel Rahman based on your work on your dissertation, 16 between 1984 and 1990 when Sheikh Abdel Rahman was not in 17 custody in Egypt he was lecturing all over the country in 18 Egypt, is that right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And during that same period of time there were also times 21 when he traveled abroad, correct? 22 A. That is correct. Yes. 23 Q. And he traveled to, among other places, Pakistan? 24 A. I cannot say this is true but that's what I was told; yes. 25 Q. Afghanistan? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9514 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe so, yes. 2 Q. Denmark? 3 A. Denmark; yes. 4 Q. United States? 5 A. I'm not sure if he came to the U.S. before 1990. I think 6 it's 1990, if I'm not mistaken. I don't remember exactly. 7 Q. And a few other countries also? 8 A. Yes. I believe England, Turkey; yes. 9 Q. And at least one of his purposes for traveling was to give 10 lectures in those other countries, correct? 11 A. I believe so, yes. 12 Q. Now, in 1990 Sheikh Abdel Rahman left Egypt and went to the 13 Sudan, correct? 14 A. There was an agreement, yes. 15 Q. That may not be where he was originally intending to go but 16 that's where he ended up, correct? 17 A. Yes. That's correct, yes. 18 Q. Now, when Abdel Rahman left Egypt in 1990, his reasons 19 included that he wanted to increase the international scope and 20 level of support to Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya both financially and 21 ideologically, correct? 22 A. Yes. Among other things, yes. 23 Q. And he also thought it would be easier for him to lead the 24 movement from abroad, correct? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9515 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 He, I believe, were thinking of the experience that 2 Khomeini had in France. He wanted to emulate that. 3 Q. Now, at some point later after he left Egypt in 1990, later 4 than that he came to the United States, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Now, moving forward in time, there came a time when he was 7 criminally prosecuted here in Federal Court in New York, 8 correct? 9 A. Yes, that's correct. 10 Q. And you knew that from working on his case? 11 A. Yes, sure. 12 Q. Now, you knew that the charges against him included 13 conspiring to bomb New York City landmarks and the United 14 Nations building? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And the charges also included conspiring to assassinate 17 Egyptian President Mubarak? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. And also against waging urban warfare against the United 20 States? 21 A. That is correct, yes. 22 Q. And you know, based on your work of the case, that on 23 October 2nd of 1995, a jury in this court house found Sheikh 24 Abdel Rahman guilty of all the charges against him? 25 A. Correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9516 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And you also know that as a result of that finding of 2 guilt, he was sentenced to life imprisonment? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you know, also, as you noted in your dissertation, that 5 at his sentencing proceeding, I delivered a four-hour speech, 6 correct? 7 A. I was told that, yes. I wasn't present but I was told 8 that, yes. 9 Q. Well, you've seen either a transcript or some other written 10 record of it, correct? 11 A. I did not see the transcript. There was some notes taken 12 by some of the paralegals, I've seen that; yes. 13 Q. In his speech that he gave at his sentencing he declared 14 his defiance against the United States, the Egyptian government 15 and the country of Israel, correct? 16 A. I remember that, yes. 17 Q. Now, the last set of facts that we were just discussing 18 related to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, and most of what we discussed 19 in my questions to you yesterday afternoon about Abdel Rahman 20 and about the Islamic Group, that's information that is 21 contained in the drafts of your dissertation, correct? 22 A. Yes. That is information that was collected by me through 23 several methods of research. Yes. 24 Q. Now, not contained in a draft of your dissertation but 25 information that you also know is that, after Abdel Rahman's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9517 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 conviction and sentence, the Court of Appeals affirmed or 2 upheld his conviction and sentence, correct? 3 A. I think I stopped in 1995 so I knew that, yes, but there 4 was no need for me to include that in the first draft. Yes. 5 Q. Just to clarify your last answer. As you testified on 6 direct, the scope of your dissertation, it only was intended to 7 cover the time period up to 1995, correct? 8 A. Yes, that is correct. 9 Q. But because of your continued involvement with Abdel Rahman 10 and your work on the appeal as you testified to -- 11 A. Yes, I did, yes. 12 Q. -- you also know about the Court of Appeals decision? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. So, you learned that the Court of Appeals upheld Abdel 15 Rahman's conviction at around the time it happened, which was 16 in August of 1999, correct? 17 A. It sounds right, yes. 18 Q. Now, as you testified on direct, you translated the 19 government's written submissions that it had made to the Court 20 of Appeals? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And therefore, as part of translating them, you obviously 23 read them? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And those were the red covered books or booklets that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9518 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Mr. Ruhnke showed you the other day, correct? 2 A. Yes, that is correct. 3 Q. And I believe he marked them as Defense Exhibits MY-90, 4 through MY-92; do you remember those? 5 A. I remember the books, I don't remember the numbers, but I 6 take your words for it. 7 Q. Fair enough. 8 Now, the government's written submissions to the 9 Appeals Court included, among other things, the government's 10 description of the evidence that it had presented at trial 11 against Abdel Rahman, correct? 12 A. I assume so, yes. That was 1997, 1998, so I assume so, but 13 I don't remember the details of it, so. 14 Q. Now, you also know, based on your continuing work with 15 Abdel Rahman and his lawyers, that the Supreme Court later 16 declined to hear his case, correct? 17 A. That is correct, yes. 18 Q. And you learned that at about the time it happened -- 19 November of 1999, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. Now, turning back again to the topic of your dissertation, 22 your reason for writing your dissertation was in order to 23 obtain a Ph.D, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you wanted to obtain a Ph.D, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9519 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, that was a goal that you had started pursuing by no 3 later than February of 1993 because that's when you applied to 4 NYU's Ph.D program, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that goal of getting your Ph.D was a goal that you were 7 still pursuing as of the date of your arrest, right? 8 A. That is right. Yes. 9 Q. And just to remind the jury, that was April 9 of 2002, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you had 13 finished all of the requirements for your Ph.D other than your 14 dissertation, is that right? 15 A. There was a waiver pending for foreign language. 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, hold on. 17 THE WITNESS: There was a waiver pending -- 18 THE COURT: Hold on. Could you start again, please? 19 And make sure to keep your voice up and talk into the 20 microphone, thank you. 21 The question was -- could you just repeat the question 22 and let Mr. Yousry start again? 23 Thank you. 24 BY MS. BAKER:: 25 Q. Is it a fact that, as of April 9, 2002, you had finished SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9520 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 all your requirements for your Ph.D other than the 2 dissertation? 3 A. With the exception of a waiver for foreign language. 4 Everything else was done. 5 Q. I'm sorry? 6 A. Everything else was done. Yes. 7 Q. When you say waiver for foreign language, there was a 8 language requirement that you could, by getting a waiver, not 9 have to comply with it? 10 A. There was a change of policies in 1997 when Professor 11 Lockman and Professor Gilson came to NYU, they installed a new 12 policy of two foreign languages other than middle eastern 13 language. 14 Since I was part of the old program I was able to 15 study Turkish in order to offset this requirement. I believe 16 it is two courses and then you get a waiver. I think I only 17 studied one and I asked for that waiver at that time. 18 I'm not sure what happened at that time, but that's 19 basically my understanding. 20 THE COURT: Okay, Mr. Yousry, I can -- 21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: No, it's all right. It's just that I want 23 to make sure that everyone can hear your answers. So, if you 24 would please keep your voice up and talk into the microphone 25 because the acoustics in the courtroom are not very good and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9521 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 the microphones are really important. And so, speak into the 2 microphone. Don't put your mouth too close to the microphone 3 but if you talk close to the microphone, your voice will carry. 4 THE WITNESS: I apologize. I am doing my best. I'm 5 sorry. 6 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 7 BY MS. BAKER:: 8 Q. Now, your goal in pursuing your Ph.D was to obtain a job in 9 academia, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. As a professor at a university or college, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in order to achieve that goal of being a professor, you 14 had to obtain a Ph.D, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Now, you knew that the quality of your dissertation would 17 affect your prospects of getting a job in academia, isn't that 18 right? 19 A. Naturally, yes. 20 Q. And you also hoped that you would be able to get your 21 dissertation published, correct? 22 A. That is correct. Yes. 23 Q. And, in fact, you had made some efforts to find a publisher 24 for either your dissertation or a book derived from your 25 dissertation, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9522 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe Professor Coleman, at York College, and Professor 2 Lockman, they spoke to me about the possibility of publishing 3 that work when it is done. But I did not speak to a publisher. 4 So those were the efforts done on my behalf, yes. 5 Q. In any conversations that you had with anyone, were there 6 references to a particular writer? 7 A. Yes. There were several references. I got a couple of 8 articles published in several journals but you cannot publish 9 something before it is done. 10 So there were a couple of projects going on at the 11 same time -- my dissertation and the project of a book. 12 Q. Okay, and specifically with respect to publishing either 13 your dissertation or something based on your dissertation, had 14 there been discussions about the possibility of using a 15 particular publisher? 16 A. Maybe, yes. Yes. I don't doubt that. 17 Q. Now, as part of your work on your dissertation, obviously 18 you did a lot of research, correct? 19 A. Yes, I did. 20 Q. And your dissertation, as you yourself described it, was to 21 be an attempt to present a comprehensive examination of the 22 history, ideas and practices of the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, as 23 well as extensive analysis of the life and struggles of its 24 general leader, Al-Amir Alam, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9523 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And, therefore, in doing your research, you extensively 3 studied the history of the Islamic Group, correct? 4 A. What was available of it, yes. 5 Q. And you also studied Sheikh Abdel Rahman, his life, and his 6 beliefs, correct? 7 A. Yes. I used most of the material that was available to me, 8 yes. 9 Q. Now, you submitted a proposal for your dissertation, in 10 other words something formal, in writing, in April of 1998, 11 correct? 12 A. I'm not sure if you are referring to the first proposal or 13 the second proposal. 14 Q. Let me show you a document. 15 A. Okay. 16 THE COURT: You may approach. 17 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 18 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document marked for 19 identification as Government Exhibit 727; do you recognize it? 20 A. Yes, I do. That is the first proposal that I wrote in 21 particular regarding this particular dissertation because I had 22 another topic before that. This was not the topic of my 23 choice, so. I just want to make that clear. 24 But that's the one in connection to Omar Abdel 25 Rahman's biography and Al-Gama'a al- Islamiyya, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9524 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Just to be clear. Although you had some other subject area 2 or scope or focus of a dissertation at an earlier point in 3 time -- 4 A. Right. 5 Q. -- this was a proposal that you did submit and this is the 6 proposal that essentially gave rise to the documents that are 7 in evidence as drafts of part of your dissertation, correct? 8 A. Correct, correct. 9 The first proposal was about the 1935 student movement 10 in each. There was also an idea about cinema and theater in 11 relation to an end toward peace in the Middle East. 12 Because the professor in charge of comparative 13 literature left NYU I was unable to pursue this idea and 14 because Professor Lockman came in and who, you know, was very 15 much interested in the Muslim movement, I worked with Professor 16 Lockman on developing this particular topic, yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 18 727. 19 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard on that, your 20 Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right, we will take it up at the 22 break. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, actually I have a number of 24 questions that derive from this document, so unfortunately I 25 would ask that we take that now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9525 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. We will take it up now. 2 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 3 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 4 All rise, please? 5 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9526 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, you may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: First, Mr. Ruhnke, any objections? 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, this is a document that we 7 disclosed in discovery among other documents. I am now looking 8 through it -- it is about 40-pages long -- for any relevance 9 objection I might have or 403 objection I might have. I didn't 10 know it was going to be handed up this morning. 11 The government has a right to hold back on 12 cross-examination documents, I understand that, but we have a 13 right to deal with it as it is being handed to us. 14 What I would like is the opportunity to look through 15 it to see what is in here and see whether, on 16 cross-examination, there is relevant 403, etc. 17 THE COURT: All right. I will take five -- what was 18 it, Mr. Tigar? 19 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I have never seen this 20 document in my life. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. TIGAR: It raises all of the issues that we were 23 discussing yesterday. And given that, what I am just looking 24 at now, we think that a limiting instruction would not be 25 adequate to deal with this document if the government intends SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9527 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 to dwell on it at some great length. 2 But I would like the chance to read it to be able to 3 make that argument in more detail. 4 THE COURT: All right. And, if necessary, we can talk 5 about it with the government as to whether the government 6 intends to dwell on it at any length. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, because of its length may, I 8 proffer a copy to the Court so the Court can glance through it 9 in anticipation of any arguments that might be made? 10 THE COURT: Sure. Thank you. 11 MS. BAKER: Basically, I intend to ask Mr. Yousry a 12 few questions about some of what it -- let me start by saying 13 the document is a cover letter followed by an outline followed 14 by a proposal, which is essentially a written summary of what 15 the dissertation would be about, followed by a bibliography. 16 I intend to ask Mr. Yousry a few questions based on 17 the outline and perhaps the proposal, although I'm not sure 18 about that, and then to establish with him, through the 19 bibliography, that those are all materials that he had reviewed 20 and was familiar with. 21 The government does not object to the Court giving a 22 limiting instruction with respect to this document the same as 23 the limiting instruction that the Court gave first thing this 24 morning. 25 And to the extent that anyone makes any kind of a 403 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9528 4BN5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 objection, we believe that that would suffice. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 (Recess) 4 (Continued next page) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9529 4bnesat2 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the government has given us 3 727, which was the document that caused the break in the 4 proceedings. And then during the break they handed us a 5 Government Exhibit marked 706A, which consists of 54 6 single-spaced typed pages of notes and drafts, rough drafts 7 relative to Mr. Yousry's thesis. 8 I believe there's probably thousands of pages of 9 drafts of Mr. Yousry's thesis that are floating around and were 10 disclosed in discovery or available by discovery. I would 11 certainly like to consider making a 106 objection once I get 12 ahold of the rest of the various drafts of these documents. I 13 have a relevance objection. If Ms. Baker could give us a brief 14 outline of where she's going with this, maybe we can solve the 15 problem. If she doesn't want to do that, that's certainly her 16 prerogative, and I understand. 17 I'm looking at what she said just before the break. 18 It was to ask a couple of questions about the outline and then 19 the bibliography. If that's so, then we don't need to 20 introduce 60 or now 110, or 90 pages of documents. I just 21 haven't had a chance really to digest what's in here in terms 22 of objections and possible 106 applications based on the other 23 drafts of various chapters of this thesis that are floating 24 around. 25 MS. BAKER: Your Honor -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9530 4bnesat2 1 MR. RUHNKE: I'm not in a position to formulate a full 2 objection right now, that's my problem. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, during Mr. Yousry's direct 4 examination, he introduced four documents that were drafts of 5 portions of his dissertation. The government knew that there 6 were many other documents out there that constituted various 7 drafts of portions of his dissertation. All of those documents 8 were either produced in electronic form in pretrial discovery 9 in the case back in the summer of 2002 or were made available 10 for inspection if they were hard copies that were seized in the 11 search of Mr. Yousry's residence. So all of the material has 12 been available to all the parties all along. 13 When Mr. Yousry chose which four pieces to put in in 14 his direct examination, the government didn't object, and those 15 pieces came in. Now the government seeks to introduce an 16 additional piece in the form of 706A. 727, the one that I had 17 handed to the Court before the break, as I said, contains the 18 outline and the proposal. So 727 is sort of the framework 19 within which these other pieces sort of fall, and that's part 20 of the purpose of 727. 21 The other part, as I said earlier, is the 22 bibliography. But as far as 706A, I don't believe that I 23 should have to get into the specifics of how I would intend to 24 use the document in cross-examining Mr. Yousry, but obviously 25 it is relevant for the same purpose as the testimony that I've SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9531 4bnesat2 1 elicited up to this point, which is Mr. Yousry's knowledge, 2 intent and state of mind. There is information in 706A that is 3 not in the four pieces of the dissertation that Mr. Yousry 4 chose to put into evidence on direct examination. So it is not 5 merely cumulative. 6 And so because Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and 7 state of mind is highly relevant in the case, particularly with 8 respect to Counts 4 and 5, we believe that we should be 9 permitted to introduce it and question him about it. Again, we 10 would agree to the same limiting instruction with respect to 11 this document. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, a brief reply. We chose to 13 introduce the version of the thesis that was on his laptop at 14 the time it was seized by the FBI because we believed that was 15 a fair way of showing the jury how it existed in its most 16 recent formulation at the very moment of his arrest as to go on 17 state of mind. 18 What has been shown to me, especially 706A, are, even 19 on the face of it, extremely early rough notes of topics for a 20 dissertation. There is -- and, again, I haven't had a chance 21 to digest what's here. I don't quarrel with Ms. Baker's 22 statement that this, among many other documents, was made 23 available in discovery. I don't claim to have a photographic 24 memory of what's contained in these documents, and I do believe 25 there may be legitimate 106 objections as these drafts evolved SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9532 4bnesat2 1 over the years. 2 I'm most of all not certain as to the date, or if the 3 government can establish the date of this draft; because if 4 it's before the period of time covered in this indictment, his 5 intent and state of mind become less relevant -- much less 6 relevant, not relevant at all. If -- and I'm assuming 7 worst-case scenarios as I'm talking, which I've not obviously 8 had a chance to digest what's in this. I'm assuming that 9 somewhere in there Ms. Baker's going to pull out an inference 10 that he was actually fully supportive of al-Gama'a 11 Al-Islamiyya. I don't know if that's in there or not. I don't 12 think so. 13 But even taking worst-case scenario, to take an 14 academic work that's evolving over the years, to not be able to 15 put a date on it -- and I don't know if the government says 16 they can put a date on it. And if they ask Mr. Yousry the 17 date, then fine, we'll take whatever answer they get. But I 18 don't believe this is even within the scope of the period 19 covered by the indictment. 20 And it's going to -- it's likely to set up 403 21 problems in terms of waste of time, if we have to then go back 22 to thousands of other pages of drafts, some of which are 23 covered with handwritten notes as it changed over the years to 24 the documents that eventually became the thesis, at least as it 25 existed on the day of Mr. Yousry's arrest in April of 2002. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9533 4bnesat2 1 So I object to the relevance grounds. I object to -- 2 particularly as to whether it can be tied in to a relevant time 3 period in connection with this indictment, I object to the 403 4 basis and I may have 106 objections. The problem is I can't 5 tell you whether I'm going to have 106 objections until I have 6 a chance to look at the other thousands of pages of drafts. 7 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we also have an objection to 8 706A. We have just received it for the first time, and the 9 document apparently relies on -- in part on Mr. Sattar as a 10 source for some of the information in the document. And we 11 object both on hearsay grounds and relevance grounds and 403 12 grounds. 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I also had asked to be heard. 14 With respect to Mr. Yousry's case, we have two issues. 15 The first, of course, is his credibility, about which we'd be 16 permitted to cross-examine, because to the extent that he said 17 nobody was in a conspiracy that I saw, we would wish to inquire 18 into his credibility and to support it. 19 Second, while it is a matter of relative indifference 20 to us, his knowledge, intent and state of mind, and we were 21 content to have that instruction we sought yesterday, if he is 22 not a conspirator, and if as is the case in federal law, 23 somebody has to be Ms. Stewart's conspirator for her to be 24 convicted, then opening up this subject as these documents do 25 gives us a relevant field of inquiry. And the relevant field SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9534 4bnesat2 1 of inquiry would, if these documents come into evidence, be 2 defined by the four corners of these documents as they exist. 3 Now, 706A begins with a -- I don't know if it's a poem 4 or a hymn reminiscent of things that in the Christian church 5 would be called -- thought of as the church militant. However, 6 it also contains an extensive discussion of the trial in Egypt 7 where 192 defendants, including Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, after 8 a trial that took three years, were acquitted. 9 And the government, no doubt, wants to go through and 10 pick out statements by Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman that advocated 11 violence or that support the idea of violence or support 12 killing or whatever. But the document taken as a whole places 13 his views in the context of a 30-year long struggle in Egypt; 14 his participation, which led him twice to be acquitted by 15 Egyptian courts, and which involved in that very case a number 16 of ideological positions presented by the IG in the form of 17 evidence in the court, at least according to the document. 18 Now, we don't, I guess, have an objection to opening 19 that door. If, however, the government now takes the position 20 that this is the scope of inquiry, at least as it relates to 21 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind -- that is to 22 say, it's relevant to go back and get his understanding of some 23 historical struggle -- then I have to ask the question: Why is 24 it that Ms. Stewart's exhibits that she had in her office on 25 which she immediately relied upon for her legal work about the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9535 4bnesat2 1 historical facts in Egypt, about the reasons why people might 2 want to rise up and oppose the Egyptian government, because it 3 is a repressive and illegitimate government in the view of 4 many, why were all those excluded? Why is the government 5 suddenly saying that Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state 6 of mind can only be understood if we understand the 7 political -- 8 THE COURT: You're talking to me, right? 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, and I'm turning to Mr. Yousry. 10 I'm sorry, your Honor. Did I seem to be doing 11 something else? I apologize to the Court. It was not my 12 intent or desire. I was looking at Mr. Yousry because this is 13 his research. And I never, your Honor -- 14 THE COURT: That's OK. 15 MR. TIGAR: Well, I've been doing -- well -- 16 THE COURT: It's all right. 17 MR. TIGAR: I apologize if that's what I seem to be 18 doing, your Honor, because I don't ever want to be doing that. 19 That's a big no-no in my life. OK. 20 Now, what I'm arguing to your Honor is that the 21 government is taking a position diametrically opposed to that 22 which it took in shutting down the Stewart defense on that 23 issue, or at the very least I've overstated in objecting to 24 those exhibits. 25 THE COURT: That's -- that's really not accurate. I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9536 4bnesat2 1 have looked at every argument and every piece of evidence in 2 the context of the arguments being made with respect to that 3 evidence and where that fits into the case. It is not an 4 answer to say, well, if this information goes in for knowledge, 5 intent and state of mind, then any information that could be 6 argued to go to knowledge, intent or state of mind must then 7 come in, irrespective of what the knowledge, intent and state 8 of mind is. 9 If, for example, there is information with respect to 10 Omar Abdel Rahman and his position, his link to violence, 11 that's one set of issues. If the set of issues is alleged 12 human rights abuses in Egypt, his knowledge, intent and state 13 of mind of that, which is not a defense in the case, is that 14 relevant? And the answer to that is no. Does knowledge, 15 intent or state of mind with respect to relevant issues in the 16 case come in? The answer to that is, well, we have to look at 17 what that is. We have to make the necessary 403 analysis and 18 reach a conclusion. 19 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor please, I -- thank you. 20 THE COURT: So, I have to look at these documents in 21 the context of the issues that have been presented to me in the 22 context of these documents and these arguments. 23 MR. TIGAR: I wish respectfully to take issue with 24 your Honor, or maybe not, but first, the documents that we 25 offered dealt with the Islamic Group and the interplay between SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9537 4bnesat2 1 its actions and the actions of a repressive government. To the 2 extent they did so, and to the extent the government takes the 3 position that there's a substantial identity between the 4 Islamic Group and Omar Abdel Rahman, our position is as before. 5 But more fundamentally, your Honor, the 403 6 determination is always a moving target. And I wasn't 7 attempting to reargue old decisions, but to point out that when 8 the government says, these are the -- these are things we want 9 to open up, that that necessarily in my view causes me to ask 10 what kinds of things we would like to put in if that's going to 11 be the way things are. 12 403, 401, 402 issues are also, we respectfully submit, 13 a moving target because the -- there are times when, if we open 14 this door -- and that's one of the things I was saying. We -- 15 in order to amplify, to complete, to rebut, we necessarily 16 involve ourselves in inquiries that if we can predict that 17 they're ultimately going to waste a jury's time, we might 18 decide not to start down that road. That was the sense in 19 which I was making the points that I made, your Honor. 20 And I do respectfully suggest it is legitimate. I 21 understand that human rights conditions in Egypt are not a 22 defense. On the other hand, an understanding of why Omar Abdel 23 Rahman chose to act in certain ways may make relevant his 24 perception about what happened to him when he was on trial for 25 three years. And Ms. Stewart's perception that there were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9538 4bnesat2 1 human rights issues that legitimately required to be addressed, 2 certainly relevant to her state of mind because she's a lawyer. 3 And human rights are supposed to be relevant to people that do 4 that for a living. 5 But that aside, your Honor, no limiting instruction in 6 our respectful view can save us if we are to now open up the 7 thousands of pages of Mr. Yousry's research into the political 8 history of Egypt for 50 years. If the door is opened, the door 9 is opened. And we'll ask our questions when the time comes and 10 explore the issue. 11 But I respectfully suggest that I support Mr. Ruhnke's 12 view that some guidance, some control over this process is 13 necessary at this point. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, first with respect to 15 Mr. Ruhnke's objections, again, I would note that he opened the 16 door to the dissertation by putting in selective drafts in his 17 case. It appears to me from my review of the documents that 18 Mr. Yousry chose to introduce that those drafts do not 19 constitute the entirety of the dissertation. Rather, they are 20 drafts of parts. And comparison of those documents, for 21 example, to the outline and the proposal would make that clear. 22 It's my understanding, just from looking at all the 23 documents next to each other, that what is essentially -- what 24 was put in evidence in Mr. Yousry's direct testimony was the 25 introduction and the part of the dissertation about Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9539 4bnesat2 1 Abdel Rahman, therefore not including the substance of other 2 parts of the dissertation tracing in more detail the history of 3 the Islamic Group. 4 And so the document that I seek to introduce as 706A 5 bears on some of that subject matter, which is clearly a part 6 of the dissertation but was not covered in what was put in 7 through Mr. Yousry's direct testimony. Again, as to its 8 relevance, 706A addresses among other things the violent nature 9 of the Islamic Group and, therefore, it is highly relevant to 10 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind, particularly 11 as to Counts 4 and 5. 12 As to the date of the document, I suspect, I expect 13 that there is a basis to believe that it was drafted or revised 14 during the time of the conspiracies charged in the indictment. 15 But even were that not the case, even were the testimony to be 16 that it was completely written prior to the charged 17 conspiracies, I respectfully submit that that would not negate 18 its relevance. 19 Obviously a conspirator's knowledge, intent and state 20 of mind prior to entering into the conspiracy, which would 21 factor into his choice to enter into the conspiracies, would be 22 a relevant point. And the nature of the document is such that 23 with a limiting instruction along the lines that the Court has 24 already given, there should not be any Rule 403 issue from 25 Mr. Yousry or from either of the other defendants, particularly SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9540 4bnesat2 1 the other defendants because the Court will be telling the jury 2 that the evidence is admitted only as to Mr. Yousry. 3 Now, as to Mr. Sattar's objection to the document on 4 the basis of the fact that it cites Mr. Sattar as a source, I 5 don't understand the legal point of that, but I would note that 6 the four documents put in during Mr. Yousry's direct testimony, 7 which came in without objection from Mr. Sattar, also cite 8 Mr. Sattar as a source. And obviously communications between 9 people who are alleged to be coconspirators are relevant as to 10 their relationship and interaction and the sharing of knowledge 11 that is relevant to their participation in the conspiracy. So 12 I don't understand the legal basis for the objection. 13 There would not be a hearsay problem, first of all, 14 because Mr. Sattar's statements would be admissions of a 15 defendant; and second of all because the Court is already 16 giving an instruction that the information is not offered 17 essentially for the truth of its substance. 18 Finally, as to the points made by Mr. Tigar, I agree 19 with your Honor's analysis that there are some aspects of 20 knowledge, intent and state of mind that are relevant and 21 others that are not. Undoubtedly Mr. Tigar would view some of 22 the content of this document as addressing the political 23 situation in Egypt, but that is not why the government offers 24 it. 25 Indeed, the government wishes that that content SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9541 4bnesat2 1 weren't in there. But the government seeks to introduce that 2 document because of other relevant content and has to take the 3 evidence as it finds it. But we don't believe that that should 4 be viewed as opening the door to further information that the 5 Court has already ruled to be irrelevant. 6 Mr. Tigar made a point about someone having to be 7 Ms. Stewart's coconspirator if Mr. Yousry is not. I didn't 8 quite understand that point. Obviously we're in the process of 9 trying to prove that Mr. Yousry is Ms. Stewart's coconspirator. 10 That's what we hope the jury will find. 11 Even if Mr. Yousry is not Ms. Stewart's coconspirator, 12 there are other coconspirators alleged, and the jury would be 13 given an instruction that this evidence is admitted only as to 14 Mr. Yousry. And the jury is presumed to follow that 15 instruction. 16 If Mr. Tigar wishes to, he could certainly 17 cross-examine Mr. Yousry and ask Mr. Yousry whether he ever 18 gave this document to Ms. Stewart or told Ms. Stewart any of 19 the information that's in this document. So between the 20 instruction and the availability of cross-examination, I just 21 don't see that there's an issue here as to the other 22 defendants. 23 THE COURT: I have a view. First, no one has 24 addressed at any length Government Exhibit 727. But I've read 25 Government Exhibit 727, and it is clear that Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9542 4bnesat2 1 Exhibit 727 would be admissible subject to the limiting 2 instruction that I gave earlier. The reason that 727 is 3 plainly admissible is prior statements by Mr. Yousry at an 4 early point in his dissertation, his proposal, probably in 5 1998, giving his knowledge, intent and state of mind after 6 extensive work himself, and it casts some of the -- could be 7 read to cast some of the testimony that was proffered on direct 8 in certainly a different light, and gives his alleged 9 knowledge, intent and state of mind with respect to Sheikh 10 Rahman and the Islamic Group. 11 I won't go through the document to allow all of the 12 statements, but they are -- they differ to some degree from 13 some of the things that the witness testified about on direct. 14 Having opened the area on direct with respect to the thesis and 15 the witness' knowledge, intent and state of mind, with respect 16 to the subject of the thesis, particularly Omar Abdel Rahman 17 and the Islamic Group, the proposal for the thesis before it 18 has been revised would plainly be relevant. And the relevance 19 is not outweighed by any danger of unfair prejudice, and the 20 limiting instruction is eminently able to be followed with 21 respect to Government Exhibit 727. 22 With respect to Government Exhibit 706A, I haven't -- 23 this has only been handed up -- I haven't had the opportunity 24 to review the entire exhibit. It does appear to me to raise a 25 question as to why the entire exhibit would have to be admitted SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9543 4bnesat2 1 in evidence simply because it is part of a piece that was 2 previously written by the defendant. 3 When the defendant proffered a book from which a 4 chapter was taken, admittedly not knowing that the defendant 5 had authored but an entire book, the solution reasonably was 6 that the chapter that the defendant sought to admit was 7 admitted. The rest of the book was not admitted, but the table 8 of contents was. 9 And the parties can -- and that's also consistent on 10 another level with respect to the way in which learned 11 treatises would be handled. I appreciate that the learned 12 treatise issue is one that's raised as an exception to the 13 hearsay rule. We're not dealing with the hearsay rule. This 14 is prior statement by a party opponent. But an entire treatise 15 wouldn't go in. The sections that are relevant and brought to 16 the witness' attention would be read to the jury. 17 In this case there's an entire chapter that the 18 parties haven't reviewed, many of the parties have not reviewed 19 in some time, if at all. And I don't understand why the 20 examination with respect to 706A could not be conducted in a 21 way that simply cuts through the objections. 22 If the purpose of 706A is to say that this witness had 23 knowledge of certain relevant issues in the case, the witness 24 could certainly be presented with the document and asked 25 whether he wrote it, when he wrote it and was he aware of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9544 4bnesat2 1 specific things in the document; not an entire document of 54 2 pages. 3 When issues have come up with respect to documents 4 otherwise admissible, I've gone with great care through the 5 documents excising individual passages that reasonable 403 6 objections could be raised to. Now I'm presented with an 7 entire document, 706A, and simply because the witness wrote it 8 without giving any analysis of the 403 arguments with respect 9 to everything that's contained in the document, I'm asked to 10 make a 403 analysis without any arguments by the parties, who 11 really haven't had a recent opportunity to review the document. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm amenable to proceeding as 13 your Honor suggested. I am not so interested in the document 14 as a physical object. I'm interested in the fact that the 15 document reflects knowledge of particular facts on the part -- 16 or what Mr. Yousry believed to be facts, knowledge on his part. 17 And I am perfectly agreeable to making use of the 18 document by showing it to him, by asking him essentially if he 19 knew certain facts, and if he doesn't agree with me, by reading 20 him the relevant portions of the document without moving the 21 entire document into evidence. 22 THE COURT: I don't understand why that -- I don't 23 understand why that isn't reasonable, particularly when two 24 chapters of the thesis went in and when it's certainly a 25 relevant inquiry whether the witness was aware of certain SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9545 4bnesat2 1 things and either put them in or didn't put them in. And the 2 drafts of the dissertation are there already. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, the objection stands on 4 relevance grounds, and I gather your Honor is overruling that 5 objection. 6 A lot of these -- the difficulty with these materials 7 is they're the equivalent of rough notes. A lot of the 8 materials that are in here are simply copying down source 9 information that are not Mr. Yousry's words at all. And if 10 Ms. Baker wants to go down that road and ask, are these your 11 words or are those somebody else's words that you wrote down to 12 use parts of the research, we're going to get into a -- you 13 know, a real side-tracking discussion. And, I mean, if you 14 even have a chance, which I've just had now, to glance through 15 that, you can see that that's so. 16 A lot of this is just material that Mr. Yousry's 17 copied down as notes, thoughts, attempts; am I going to use 18 this in my dissertation, am I not going to use it? The first 19 item on page one is a quote he typed out from a videotape dated 20 April 1991 as something he might use later on. The thought 21 that these represent his views is really misleading. 22 And, you know, Mr. Yousry knows what his views are and 23 he knows what in here were not his views but were things he'd 24 written down from other people. And this was never intended -- 25 if he had ever been asked, were you ever going to show this to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9546 4bnesat2 1 someone or submit this as a work, or did you set this up in a 2 way so that your thoughts are clearly delineated from other 3 people, he'll say no. These are notes. These are rough notes 4 and outlines that I prepared along the way. Some of the stuff 5 I used, some of the stuff I discarded, some of the stuff I 6 rethought. 7 And it's just -- on a 403 basis, we're about to engage 8 in a 54-page -- very, very difficult area to make any sense out 9 of. And it's going to engender a very similarly difficult 10 redirect examination with thousands of pages of documents, of 11 thoughts, ideas, research, things that were in, things that 12 were out; suggestions and directions from his academic advisors 13 as to, no, drop that area; don't include it later on in the 14 dissertation. And it's going to lead a misleading, unfair 15 impression, the way the government proposes to proceed. So I 16 do object to it. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government's focus in 18 this line of questioning is not what the final product of 19 Mr. Yousry's dissertation was going to look like. The focus of 20 the government's questioning is what information was in 21 Mr. Yousry's possession at the time he engaged in the conduct 22 with which he is charged. 23 And Mr. Ruhnke may do whatever he wishes to do on 24 redirect examination, but to the extent that this document 25 evidences that Mr. Yousry had certain information, that it came SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9547 4bnesat2 1 to him and that he processed it in some form as evidenced by 2 the fact that it ended up in this document is the basis for the 3 relevance. 4 And knowledge, intent and state of mind are central 5 issues in this case. So this evidence is highly probative, and 6 there is no outweighing of that high level of probativeness by 7 prejudice. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I mean, that's entirely legitimate. I 9 concede that that's entirely legitimate. If the purpose of 10 this is to say Mr. Yousry knew that the Sheikh was a man who 11 long advocated terroristic violence, he's testified to that. 12 So -- if the point is not to what he wrote in drafts but the 13 information that he had available to him, then I agree with 14 that as being legitimate. That's not what I heard the 15 government offer initially. 16 But if their point is, did you know that this 17 videotape existed, did you know if this sermon was given, 18 assuming that somewhere in there there is actually a sermon, I 19 concede that's legitimate. So maybe it's a storm in a coffee 20 cup. 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the one thing I have not heard 22 an answer to is when I look at 706A, I don't see a single -- 23 and maybe I'm wrong -- I don't see any acts here that took 24 place, any conduct after about 1990. And the majority of this 25 is directed to a period, '77 to '81. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9548 4bnesat2 1 And so even with respect to the proffered purpose, and 2 that is to say Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind 3 with respect to information about Sheikh Abdel Rahman, the 4 question of remoteness does arise. People change. Their 5 behavior is influenced by context. 6 And while 727 does relate to events when Sheikh Rahman 7 came to the United States and so on, 706A does not appear to 8 contain any such references. And rather than interrupt the 9 examination with objections, I respectfully submit there may be 10 some guidance on that, because the Court's decision as to the 11 recency or remoteness of information is one that may have some 12 influence on the jury, not just with respect to this, but with 13 respect to other things as well. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Government Exhibit 706A also 15 contains information relating to the time period between 1990 16 and 1995. Mr. Yousry has already testified that his plan with 17 respect to his dissertation was that it was only going to cover 18 until 1995. So that is the latest date that is addressed. But 19 there is information, as I said, between 1990 and 1995. 20 However, the government submits that information with 21 respect to the Islamic Group's history of violence even prior 22 to 1990 is relevant because, again, essentially this case is 23 about conspiring with the Islamic Group; making Abdel Rahman a 24 leader of the group available as personnel to a segment of the 25 group who had a particular agenda. And, therefore, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9549 4bnesat2 1 Mr. Yousry's knowledge of that group's history of violence is 2 relevant as well. 3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I stand corrected. There's 4 half a page on the period -- well, actually, it's one paragraph 5 in the period 1995 to the present. And it says that the 6 movement acknowledged it couldn't win an armed struggle and it 7 de-escalated tactics. 8 THE COURT: What Mr. Yousry said, or rather what 9 Mr. Ruhnke said on behalf of Mr. Yousry, was that there -- at 10 least as I understand it, there may not be an issue if what the 11 government seeks to do is to ask Mr. Yousry about his awareness 12 or his knowledge, intent or state of mind of certain source 13 materials or source facts, rather than the way in which he 14 processed that in his early draft. Is that -- 15 MR. RUHNKE: That's right, your Honor, yes. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my focus is on information 17 that was known to Mr. Yousry. I would like to inquire, I 18 believe it bears on the extent of his knowledge or state of 19 mind, the fact that he put that information into a document 20 that was related to his process of preparing his dissertation. 21 I -- the document itself is obviously a rough draft. I don't 22 intend to quarrel with that. But it's a document that he 23 created as part of his work on his dissertation. And, of 24 course, I wish to elicit that point in addition to the 25 substance of the information itself. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9550 4bnesat2 1 In other words, this is not just something that 2 someone handed to him; he selected the information from 3 somewhere and put it in there. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm hearing the government 5 attempt to draw a distinction that I don't quite understand, 6 but it sounds like it's a prelude to something else. And 7 what -- if the government proposes to say, Mr. Yousry, were you 8 aware that the Islamic Group made these kinds of statements to 9 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, gave these kinds of sermons and that 10 the Islamic Group carried out these kinds of activities, of 11 course he's going to say yes, I was aware, assuming that it's 12 an accurate question. 13 If the question then sort of morphs or spills over 14 into, and so when you wrote your dissertation draft in 19 15 whenever -- because we don't know -- that the group is X, Y, Z, 16 I don't think that's consistent with the limitation that I have 17 kind of agreed to. 18 I mean, I hear the government saying yes, they're 19 primarily interested in the information that was available to 20 him, but uncomfortable in committing to your Honor that that's 21 all they're really going to ask about. That raises a certain 22 discomfort level on my part. 23 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I guess I'm asking the Court 25 not to tie my hands, in the event that the examination doesn't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9551 4bnesat2 1 go the way Mr. Yousry -- Mr. Ruhnke suggests it might. 2 If I ask Mr. Yousry, didn't you know X or weren't you 3 aware Y, if every question gets a yes answer, then it is not 4 necessary to explore the document, the nature of the document. 5 But in the event that every question doesn't get a yes answer, 6 I need a little leeway to establish that the information which 7 is the basis for my question appears in a document that he 8 created as part of the process of working on his dissertation. 9 MR. RUHNKE: If Mr. Yousry denies that he knew 10 something, and it is in this collection of raw research, which 11 is really what it is, then if he says, no, I wasn't aware of 12 that, then it's legitimate for Ms. Baker, I would think, to 13 show it to him, see if that refreshes his recollection as to 14 whether he did know that. Or if he says, I don't remember if I 15 knew that, I knew a lot of things but I don't remember 16 everything I wrote down ten years ago. 17 So, I think we have an understanding, but I'm not sure 18 how it's going to work out in practice. But I guess, like all 19 questions in practice, we'll have to see. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar? 21 MR. TIGAR: I would respectfully request a continuing 22 objection to any inquiry into events prior to the calendar year 23 1990, as they may have -- with respect to this subject matter 24 of political and social events in Egypt. 25 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9552 4bnesat2 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, for the reason that I stated 2 earlier, we submit that that information is relevant to 3 Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. The Islamic 4 Group has a history of violence that goes back prior to 1990. 5 Some of the people involved in the group, including Abdel 6 Rahman, were involved in that history of violence prior to 1990 7 and, therefore, that information is relevant. 8 THE COURT: There's a fair 403 limitation. Of course, 9 Mr. Yousry put in two parts of his dissertation, which go back 10 prior to 1990, and so -- and that was unobjected to and part of 11 the direct. 12 So, some information, particularly as it links to 13 specific people, I don't, for example, know to what degree 706A 14 deals with Mr. Taha. And so I'm assuming some inquiry, having 15 opened it up on direct, would be permissible, but my view is 16 not a lot. I mean, they're -- 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if I might address that point 18 a little bit further. 19 It is Mr. Yousry's own view, as reflected in these 20 dissertation related documents, that there was less violent 21 activity able to be carried out by the Islamic Group after 1990 22 because of activity on the part of the Egyptian government 23 against the group; essentially, I'm not sure this would be 24 Mr. Yousry's word, but to a large extent the group had been 25 defeated or pushed back by the Egyptian government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9553 4bnesat2 1 And so it's the government's view that, therefore, 2 there should be some leeway as to the earlier conduct, because 3 that demonstrates the views of the group, the proclivity of the 4 group and the fact that there was a smaller amount of conduct 5 later was because of external circumstances acting on the 6 group. 7 Again, this is all to the extent of Mr. Yousry's 8 knowledge, intent and state of mind. I'm not offering it as 9 historical fact, but it's relevant to him from his perspective 10 that the violence occurred earlier, essentially because it 11 wasn't able to a certain extent to occur later. 12 THE COURT: It still doesn't change the 403 balancing 13 analysis, particularly since there are, as reflected in the 14 exhibits introduced for Mr. Sattar's state of mind, specific 15 incidents which are discussed, particularly since there's 16 Luxor, subsequently. And it's possible to explore with 17 Mr. Yousry his knowledge, intent and state of mind as to the 18 views of violence and the suppression of violence without a 19 lengthy presentation of events remote in time. 20 And, indeed, I sustained in the course of the 21 government's direct case some objections with respect to 22 remoteness. And so the 403 analysis really is correct. Some 23 testimony but not a lot, if it's relevant to the violence as 24 reflected in the subsequent period. If, in fact, as the 25 government says, it's the defendant's view that the violence is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9554 4bnesat2 1 suppressed for a period of time, the question is, what is the 2 violence that's being suppressed for a period of time? 3 But the further back we go, and certainly before 1990, 4 the less relevance there is. And with the amount of materials 5 in the case, the historical explorations become both less 6 relevant, more likely to waste time, so that the 403 balancing 7 begins to tip against admissibility beyond -- if there is too 8 extensive an examination. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, so that I don't make speaking 10 objections in the presence of the jury, I will object to 11 questions that attempt to establish what the prosecutor just 12 said was the proclivity of the group. I'll object to questions 13 like that, because proclivity is specifically prohibited by 14 404(b). 15 And I will also object to questions that ask the views 16 of IG; that is, that attempt to attribute views to this thing, 17 the existence of which is not an element of any of the 18 offenses. And without going into all of the reasons why I 19 would object to that, my objection will be in the form, object 20 to the form of the question or relevance, something like that; 21 not to suggest or make a speaking objection, but that's what I 22 would be doing. I'm not anticipating that the prosecutor will 23 do anything like that, but I just want to let the Court know 24 that that's what I will be trying to convey so we don't 25 interrupt the flow. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9555 4bnesat2 1 THE COURT: OK. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, it is relevant to the conduct 3 with which Mr. Yousry is charged what he thought were the views 4 of the group. He writes about the group collectively in many 5 instances. And, you know, I'm not using his exact words, but 6 in substance, he is talking about the beliefs or views or 7 agenda of the group in his writing. 8 And if your Honor wishes me to phrase those questions 9 by saying "you thought that" or "you knew that" or "you 10 believed that IG thought or believed or had the view," I am 11 certainly amenable to doing that. But I don't believe that I 12 should be precluded from questions that bear on Mr. Yousry's 13 state of mind as to what the group was about. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9556 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I will make my objections when they come. 2 I will signal, your Honor, that in 706A -- I could find the 3 page but I don't see the reason to do so now -- Mr. Yousry 4 notes that the group split in 1984. 5 So, that's what happens with all of these political 6 groups and that's the reason the Supreme Court has said what it 7 has said about it. Ascribing personality to it is problematic 8 and I can't predict what the questions are. But if I make an 9 objection, it will be based on that information or that 10 argument that we presented to the Court before. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 Are we ready to bring in the jury? 13 MR. TIGAR: Yes. We request, your Honor, that you 14 give the instruction then if you are going to admit 727A -- 15 THE COURT: 727 you mean? 16 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. 727. Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sure. 18 MS. BAKER: Actually, your Honor, given the amount of 19 time that has gone by, if we could have three minutes before 20 the jury comes back in, I would appreciate it. 21 THE COURT: Sure. Can I talk to the lawyers at the 22 side bar for just a moment? 23 (Page 9557 was sealed by Order of the Court) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9558 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court) 2 (Recess) 3 MR. RUHNKE: May Mr. Yousry get back on the stand, 4 your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 6 Let's bring in the jury. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, shall I begin by re-offering 8 the exhibit or does your Honor want to rule on the offer that I 9 think I made previously? 10 THE COURT: You can re-offer Government Exhibit 727. 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9559 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 8 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the government offers 10 Government Exhibit 727. 11 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 727 is 12 admitted in evidence. 13 (Government's Exhibit 727 received in evidence) 14 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is 15 subject to the same limiting instruction that I had given you 16 about the testimony about, from Mr. Yousry about conclusions 17 that he reached in his research. This document is offered only 18 with respect to Mr. Yousry and only as to his knowledge, intent 19 and state of mind, and not for the truth of any of the 20 historical events described. 21 All right? 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display the first page 23 of Government Exhibit 727 to the jury? 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MS. BAKER:: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9560 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. If would you enlarge the text, please? 2 Mr. Yousry, the first page of Government Exhibit 727, 3 that's a cover letter that you wrote, correct? 4 A. Yes, that's correct. 5 Q. And it's addressed to Professor Lockman? 6 A. That is correct, yes. 7 Q. He was your dissertation advisor at NYU, correct? 8 A. He still is, yes. 9 Q. Now, with this letter you enclosed and sent, to Professor 10 Lockman, three documents relating to your dissertation, 11 correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And those documents were an outline, a proposal and a 14 bibliography, is that right? 15 A. That is -- that is right, yes. 16 Q. Let me direct your attention, first -- withdrawn. Sorry. 17 Directing your attention to the cover letter above the 18 name Professor Lockman, it gives a date of April 19th of 1998, 19 correct? 20 A. That's correct, yes. 21 Q. And so, that's when you sent these dissertation-related 22 materials to Professor Lockman, correct? 23 A. That's right. 24 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would put up the third page of the 25 document? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9561 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Mr. Yousry, if you are looking at hard copy I am going 2 to refer by the page numbers in the upper right hand corner, so 3 this is 0048. 4 What I am showing you here now is part of the outline 5 of your dissertation, is that right? 6 A. Part of the outline of the proposal at that time, yes. 7 Q. And the way you were proposing your dissertation to be 8 structured at the time, it was to be broken into three parts, 9 correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And shown on the page that's on the screen now, the page 12 with the number 0048, that relates to the first part -- what 13 was to be the first part of the dissertation, is that right? 14 A. Yes, it does. You're right. 15 Q. And that was to address the time period between 1965 and 16 1977, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 The conflict between the government in place and the 19 social movement at that time, the Muslim social movement at 20 that time. 21 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would display the next page of the 22 document; Mr. Yousry, it is the one marked 0048 in the upper 23 right-hand corner enlarging the top part of the page -- this 24 relates to what was to be the second part of the dissertation, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9562 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, correct. 2 However, the second part was discontinued or 3 discounted. In about March of 2000 Professor Lockman advised 4 me that the main figure should be Omar Abdel Rahman and every 5 other information about the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya should be in 6 the background. In other words, he would be the main focus and 7 the group would be the secondary focus. 8 So, this was advised later on. 9 Q. But, as of April of 1998 when you submitted this outline 10 and other documents to Professor Lockman your intention was, or 11 your plan was that the second of the three parts of the 12 dissertation was to address the history of Al-Gama'a 13 al-Islamiyya between 1977 and 1995? 14 A. That is correct, yes. 15 Q. As I may have already asked you, by the time you submitted 16 this set of documents -- the proposal and the outline -- you 17 had already done a fair amount of research in connection with 18 your dissertation, correct? 19 A. Yes, absolutely. 20 It was -- a lot of the research I did was through my 21 job actually as a translator working on that case, so I had 22 access to a lot of material -- videotapes, audio tapes, 23 newspaper articles, books. Stuff that was seized in England, 24 Denmark. Everything that was presented in the Sheikh's case 25 had access to, so yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9563 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. We are going to talk more about that material in a little 2 while, but for now let's continue to focus on this proposal for 3 your dissertation. 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. So now, in the second part you were planning to address the 6 Islamic Group during the time period 1977 through 1995, 7 correct? 8 A. Correct. However, I turned out to be wrong. The movement 9 actually started a little bit earlier than '77, it was in '68. 10 So -- but that's a minor point. 11 Q. Focusing in the middle of this page there is -- well, 12 withdrawn. 13 Before I ask you that, this second part of the 14 dissertation about the Islamic Group was to be further broken 15 down, at least as you were planning it in April 1998, further 16 broken down into four sections, correct? 17 A. That was -- yes. That was the plan, yes. 18 Q. And each section covered a subset of years within that 19 broader period of 1977 to 1995, correct? 20 A. That is correct. Some do, some don't. You know, some 21 sections just cover ideas, questions that they were thinking 22 of. Things of this nature. 23 Q. As you expressed it in your outline in April of 1998, the 24 first section -- directing your attention to what's on the top 25 of the screen -- the first section was going to address what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9564 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 you called the formative years of 1977 to 1981, correct? 2 A. That is correct. Yes. 3 Q. And directing your attention to item B under that 4 subsection, the fourth line under item B, you describe part of 5 the subject that you were going to address there as the 6 establishment of a new militant Muslim group Al-Gama'a 7 al-Islamiyya, correct? 8 A. Yes. Actually, the question was whether or not Al-Gama'a 9 al-Islamiyya was a part of the previous movement that was 10 defeated in 1965. 11 It is an academic question that we had to answer that 12 he had links. As it turned out, according to my research, they 13 did not have links, so. 14 Q. Nonetheless, Al-Gama'a was formed during this period of 15 time and, in your view, it was formed as a militant group, 16 correct? 17 A. They were formed in 1968 as separate cells who believed 18 that armed struggle, from their perspective, against the 19 government, in order to be able to establish a Muslim state. 20 And they were very small in numbers, very secretive and they 21 just became a much larger movement in the mid-'70s after they 22 aligned themselves with the president, President Sadat. 23 Q. Now, when you say after they -- I'm sorry, did you say 24 aligned themselves? 25 A. Yes. They formed a partnership in order to defeat the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9565 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 nationalist movement in Egypt in 1978. 2 Q. But then there came a time later when they came to oppose 3 President Sadat and, in fact, assassinated him? 4 A. Absolutely, yes. 5 They felt -- they felt that he cheated them or lied to 6 them. That was their own interpretation, so. 7 Q. Now, continuing down to the lower portion of the page 8 that's on the screen right now, we see the heading for what was 9 going to be the second section of this second part of your 10 dissertation and you describe this second section as the prison 11 years, and it related to the time period between 1981 and 1984, 12 correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. And was that a reference to the fact that there were 15 leaders of the Islamic Group who were in prison during that 16 period of time? 17 A. Well, I believe about 7,000 people were in prison at the 18 time. Most of the leadership of that movement were arrested 19 after the assassination of President Sadat. They were all put 20 on trial and most of them were acquitted in 1984. 21 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show the next page, please. And 22 Mr. Yousry, that's the page numbered 0050 in the upper 23 right-hand corner. 24 At the top of this page we see the third section of 25 the second part of your dissertation, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9566 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. That is correct. 2 Q. And you describe that section as the golden years, 1984 to 3 1991, correct? 4 A. That is correct. Yes. 5 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would scroll down, please -- starting 6 in the middle of that same page we see the fourth section, 7 correct? 8 A. Yes, I do see that. 9 Q. And that section you described as armed confrontation and 10 defeat, and it related to 1991 to 1995, correct? 11 A. Correct. 12 There was a covenant between them and the government. 13 The government told them we will let you out of jail, no 14 militant action against the government. They agreed to that. 15 They started to preach all over the country. They became very 16 popular among the poor peasants and poor workers and they posed 17 a threat to the government and the government, at that 18 moment -- as it said here -- a policy of physical elimination. 19 And, basically, they started a military confrontation where the 20 movement was defeated and basically lost its popular support, 21 lost its leadership. 22 Basically, it came to a stage where I would describe 23 it as nonexistent in '95. 24 Q. That was the time period 1991 to 1995 you were just 25 discussing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9567 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And within this outline for your dissertation, you 3 described that period of time in item B as four years of 4 terror, correct? 5 A. Yes, correct. Absolutely. 6 They carried out several acts of terrorism against 7 civilians. They carried out several acts of terrorism against 8 government officials. They were retaliating against the 9 government assassination by assassinating government officials. 10 It was very bloody. 11 Q. As you sort of summarized the subject matter that would 12 fall under that heading, you described it as national armed 13 conflict attacking vital government interests and attacking 14 tourism? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would show, please, the next page; 17 Mr. Yousry, it is the page marked 0051, this page reflects what 18 is to be the third of the three parts of your dissertation, the 19 part focusing on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, in addition to submitting an outline for the 22 dissertation, you also submitted a proposal, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And would it be fair to say that the proposal was 25 essentially text that provided a preview or a summary of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9568 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 kinds of information that would be in the dissertation? 2 A. Not really. 3 It's basically a proposal to pose a question and just 4 tell the committee who is going to review that proposal, this 5 is the question that I'm looking at. These are the current 6 scholarships and these are the ideas and dominant knowledge in 7 the field, currently, regarding this particular question, and 8 that is how I'm going to try to look at it. 9 So, it's a methodology, more or less. 10 And then you provide them with the bibliography and 11 all the available material you have. 12 Q. In the proposal, were you essentially trying to establish 13 why your dissertation that you were proposing to write would 14 contribute something new to the field of study in this area? 15 A. Yes. That's the question, yes. 16 Basically the field at the time had two dominant views 17 and the first view was Muslim movements present and 18 alternative. And the second was the Muslim movement is against 19 modernity. It's something that's coming out of the past. 20 I proposed that it is a modern movement because it is 21 a product of our modern time and it, too, presents an 22 alternative. It is not the right alternative but, 23 nevertheless, it presents an alternative. 24 So, that was my way of combining the two. 25 Q. So, you were proposing to focus on the Islamic Group and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9569 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman as its leader, and you were 2 attempting, in this proposal, to establish that within a 3 dissertation addressing those subjects, that you were going to 4 provide the world of academia with new information, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Now, if I can direct your attention further back in the 7 document to page 0065; and Ms. Griffith if you could display 8 that page? 9 Is this the cover page of the bibliography that you 10 also enclosed with your letter to Professor Lockman? 11 A. Yes. That was the title at the time. Of course, it 12 changed. It was a working title. 13 Q. What you are referring to is in the middle of the screen, 14 you were saying at the time that was going to be the title of 15 the dissertation? 16 A. Right. I just wanted to give them a hint of what I was 17 going to be discussing. 18 Q. And the function of the bibliography was essentially to 19 identify the source materials on which you expected to rely in 20 writing the dissertation, correct? 21 A. More than that. Actually, it was providing them with the 22 primary sources that I had access to, because research has to 23 be done from a primary source. And since the central figure of 24 the research was still alive, it was very important for me to 25 show them that I had most of his speeches, most of his work, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9570 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 most of his writing, in its primary state. 2 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would turn to the next page, please, 3 the page marked 0066 in the upper right-hand corner. 4 Mr. Yousry, if you would please refer to the paper 5 copy of the document in front of you? It's true, is it not, 6 that the bibliography was about 13 pages long? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. What is shown on the screen now is the top half of the 9 first page of the list of materials, correct? 10 A. That is correct, yes. 11 Q. Now, by the time you submitted this bibliography and the 12 accompanying outline and proposal to Dr. Lockman, you had 13 already reviewed the various materials that are listed in your 14 bibliography, correct? 15 A. That is correct. Yes. 16 Q. Now, as you have already testified, you, as you have 17 already testified at this trial, you had previously testified 18 at Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's trial back in July of 1995, 19 correct? 20 A. Yes, I did. I testified as an expert witness for the 21 linguistic matters for several defendants. Yes. 22 Q. Now, as part of your work for that trial in which you 23 testified in 1995, you participated in translating various 24 materials, correct? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9571 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. You also participated in summarizing various materials, 2 correct? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 Q. And, as part of your work up to that point in time when you 5 testified, the materials that you had read or listened to, for 6 purposes of translating or summarizing, included about 50 7 videotapes of Sheikh Abdel Rahman that had been seized in 8 Denmark, correct? 9 A. Maybe more. I'm not really sure but, yes. Yes. 10 Q. A large number? 11 A. A large number -- sermons, lectures, radio interviews, TV 12 interviews, lectures in parks, gatherings in schools. Yes. 13 Q. You had also reviewed, as part of your work leading up to 14 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial, a number of recordings of calls 15 that were intercepted on his telephone, correct? 16 A. His telephone here in the United States? 17 Q. Correct. 18 A. Yes, correct. 19 Q. You had also reviewed either, on paper or in recorded form, 20 speeches that he had given? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And some of those included question and answer periods that 23 he engaged in? 24 A. I would say about 60 percent of them included questions and 25 answers, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9572 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. So, in total, you had reviewed already, by July of 1995, a 2 very significant quantity of material relating to Sheikh Omar 3 Abdel Rahman, correct? 4 A. I did so in my capacity as a translator at the time. 5 Before I turned it into a project, yes. 6 Q. But then later, when you began to pursue this dissertation, 7 you were able to utilize these materials that you already had 8 reviewed and were familiar with? 9 A. Well, luckily enough, I kept all of that because I was 10 working on the appeal, so I still had access to everything. 11 Yes. 12 Q. And in this bibliography, which is part of Government 13 Exhibit 727, you have listed many of those materials, many 14 materials that you had already had experience with from working 15 on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's trial, correct? 16 A. Yes. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. And is it fair to say, without taking the time to show the 18 jury every page -- is it fair to say that the bibliography 19 essentially itemizes these categories of materials, in other 20 words it lists tapes individually and books individually and so 21 on? 22 A. Yes, it does. 23 Q. So, it's fair to say, is it not, that your knowledge about 24 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman and the Islamic Group, comes from a 25 variety of sources? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9573 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. Yes. 2 I prefer to read the primary sources but I was, at 3 some point collecting other sources -- newspaper articles, 4 other books written about the same topic so, yes. But most of 5 the stuff I had was primary sources. 6 Q. Just to be clear, when you say primary sources, you mean 7 the actual words of the people at issue? 8 A. Well, the actual writings, the actual speeches, the actual 9 opinions, the actual memories. That doesn't necessarily mean 10 that everything he said is right, it is just that you have to 11 have access to that stuff in order to be able to study it, put 12 it in context and form an opinion about it. 13 Q. Is it fair to say that if you are writing about a person 14 for academic purposes, that the source material is viewed as 15 better quality if it is more primary as opposed to second-hand 16 information? 17 A. Yes. Primary sources are the sources if you are writing a 18 biography, yes. 19 Q. Now, in addition to some of the materials that you have 20 already mentioned that you reviewed or relied upon, did you 21 also review and use, as a source, the unpublished dissertation 22 of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 23 A. It's over 1,200 pages. I don't know if it is proper to say 24 that, but Judge Mukasey did not order the translation of that, 25 he just ordered us to summarize it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9574 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 So, I was one of the team summarizing that; yes. 2 Q. You have reviewed it and you viewed it as a source 3 material? 4 A. Yes, of course. Yes. Later on though, yes. 5 Q. And you also, when you were addressing the Islamic Group in 6 your dissertation as opposed to Abdel Rahman as an individual, 7 you were relying on a variety of materials put out by the 8 Islamic Group, is that fair to say? 9 A. Yes. All of them were collected and handed into the 10 defense in the trial. Yes. 11 Q. And those Islamic Group materials included the material 12 from the internet, is that right? 13 A. Some of that stuff was given to me from the internet, yes. 14 Q. And also audio and videotapes, correct? 15 A. Yes, sure. 16 Q. And some books? 17 A. I believe maybe six or seven books. Yes. 18 Q. Now, in the drafts of your dissertation that had been 19 introduced into evidence, there are quite a number of 20 footnotes, correct? 21 A. I'm not sure. Are you saying the -- I'm confused, I just 22 want to understand, are you referring to this or the one that 23 Mr. Ruhnke put in? 24 Q. The ones that Mr. Ruhnke showed you. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9575 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. The ones marked MY-550LT-1 through MY-550LT-4? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. There are a number of notes in those documents? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And the kinds of materials that you and I have been 6 discussing, those materials are cited in your various footnotes 7 and dissertation drafts? 8 A. Correct. 9 When you cite a source you have to go through a 10 process to verify whether or not that person who said that at 11 the time was saying it to local audience, some other kind of 12 audience, why did he or she say that. So, some of the citings 13 later on were discarded by me because I didn't think they were 14 reliable. 15 But that's correct, yes. 16 Q. Let me try my question in a different way. 17 My purpose in asking was, is it fair to say that a 18 function of a footnote in a dissertation is to indicate the 19 source from which you were obtaining the material in the main 20 text? 21 A. Yes, correct. 22 Q. Turning back for a minute to Government Exhibit -- sorry -- 23 Exhibit 550LT-4, one of the draft portions of your 24 dissertation. I was asking you earlier this morning about the 25 dates on which you had worked on the drafts and you said that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9576 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 you thought that you had initially drafted 550LT-4 in 1999 to 2 early 2000 but then had revised part of it later on. 3 Was that your testimony? 4 A. That is correct, yes. I believe I had the first draft in 5 January of 2000, if I'm not mistaken, took about a couple of 6 months to come back from the committee. I had four people, 7 four professors reading that. I also showed that particular 8 draft to Mr. Ramsey Clark in order to get his clearance on 9 footnotes and things that the Sheikh said. 10 So, it took about three months or four months for that 11 stuff to come back to me. 12 And then I started a process of revision. 13 Q. Just to focus on the issue of what got written when, 14 though; you estimated this morning that you had, in the later 15 period of time, revised the first 30 to 35 pages of the 16 document however the document in total is only 32 pages. 17 Can you describe, just by subject matter, which parts 18 you were revising later? 19 A. I was revising the part that dealt with the life of Omar 20 Abdel Rahman. 21 For instance, when you write a biography you get a 22 skeleton and once you have the basic dates down, then you start 23 to fill in the gaps and fill in the story. Of course, some of 24 the basic facts that I had turned out to either be wrong or, 25 you know, somebody recollected something that was not true, and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9577 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 sometimes it was just plain self-serving. 2 For instance, the fact that he was named Omar, in 3 itself, he wanted to make it look like his parents saw in him 4 something that reminded them of one of the successors of the 5 prophets. And I pursued that and it turned out to be false. 6 So, things of this nature had to be correct and it 7 takes a long time to correct each one, so. 8 Q. So, is it fair to say your focus is primarily on some of 9 the details of his life in Egypt? 10 A. That is probably right, yes. 11 Q. Now, the exhibits that are MY-550LT-1 through MY-550LT-4 12 are not the only documents that you ever wrote as part of your 13 work on your dissertation, correct? 14 A. I collected a lot of material, I took a lot of notes and 15 did a lot of rough notes. I did a lot of rough drafts. Yes, 16 of course. 17 They were, I would say, 800, 900 pages. 18 Q. So, is it fair to say that there is a substantial amount of 19 information that you gathered that you learned over the course 20 of working on your dissertation that isn't contained just in 21 those four documents that are in evidence so far? 22 A. Right. 23 Some -- some parts I decided that I'm not going to 24 use. Other parts my advisor advised me not to use it. Some 25 other stuff I was just trying to find out whether or not I got SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9578 4BN5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the story right. 2 Some of the stuff I was just keeping to use later so, 3 yes. 4 Q. Is it fair to say that those four documents that are in 5 evidence are drafts of only what was going to be a porti