9693 4BO5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 24, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 9694 - 9700 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9701 4BO5SAT1 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I didn't hear what you said. 4 THE COURT: I said, please be seated, all. 5 Mr. Yousry on the stand.gen. 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 8 THE JURY: Good morning. 9 THE COURT: It is good to see you all. 10 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 11 Mr. Fletcher? 12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 13 are still under oath. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 15 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed. 16 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 17 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 18 CROSS EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. BAKER:: 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, I would like to begin by following up on a few 21 matters that I previously asked you about because the 22 transcript may not be exactly correct, probably because of the 23 bad acoustics in here. 24 Earlier in the day yesterday I asked you about an 25 Egyptian government official who was assassinated by the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9702 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Islamic Group. Do you remember talking about that? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Am I correct that that official's name is Rifa't, ending 4 with a T, El-Mahgue? 5 A. El-Mahgue, yes. 6 Q. Would you spell that for the court reporter? 7 A. E-L-M-A-H-G-U-E. 8 Q. Thank you. 9 Now, by contrast, at the end of the day I was asking 10 you some questions about a person who has been referred to in 11 this trial as Taha. 12 Mr. Taha's first name is Rifa'i, ending with an I, is 13 that correct? 14 A. That is correct, yes. 15 Q. And one other matter. I had also asked you yesterday about 16 when had you written and revised one of the draft portions of 17 your dissertation, which is in evidence as MY-550LT-4, and I 18 believe you testified that you wrote it in about January of 19 2000 but then revised some of it later, correct? 20 A. That is correct, yes. 21 Q. And is it also correct that you had said that the portion 22 that you revised later was the portion that related to Sheikh 23 Abdel Rahman's life in Egypt? 24 A. Mainly, yes. 25 Q. Now, later in the day yesterday, towards the end of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9703 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 day, I was asking you some questions about some people who were 2 leaders of the Islamic Group at various points in time. Do you 3 remember giving the, being asked the following question and 4 giving the following answer? 5 This is at transcript page 9638: 6 "Q Turning to a different person, Mustafa Hamza was 7 one of the leader of the Islamic Group, correct? 8 "A He is also a person that I did not concentrate on. 9 He became a leader to that movement, I believe, in 1999, but I 10 don't know a thing about him other than that. 11 I read some reports in the newspapers that he was 12 involved in the assassination attempt of President Mubarak in 13 1995. Other than that, I don't know much about that person." 14 Was that your testimony yesterday? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, isn't it true that in a document that you wrote 17 as part of your work on your dissertation, you stated the 18 following: That in 1985 -- 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could I have a page reference 20 or document reference? 21 MS. BAKER: Government Exhibit 706A, pages 44 to 45. 22 MR. RUHNKE: May I have a moment to find the exhibit? 23 Thank you. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 Q. -- in 1985, al-Gama'a's position was to help in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9704 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Afghanistan. The al-Gama'a leaders, around the end of '84 to 2 early '86, decided to send some of their leaders there to gain 3 military experience to help train and organize a military wing 4 in Egypt. The following leaders were able to go between '87 to 5 '89, Tala't Fu'ad Qasim, Abdel Akher Hamad, Usama Rushdie, 6 Yaseem Hama, Mustafa Hamza and Rifa'i Taha. The other leaders 7 divided on a mental and physical level, Tala't and Rushdie to 8 produce al-Mourabeton, Rifa'i, Hamza, Adli Yousef and Talaat 9 Hamam military training. 10 Is that something that you wrote? 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I ask that what is being 12 read to him be actually shown to him so he can see the context 13 as the rule requires? 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you a document marked for 17 identification as Government Exhibit 706A. I handed it to you 18 open to page 44, and the portion that I was just reading from 19 starts at the very bottom, the last line of page 44, and 20 carries over to page 45. 21 Am I correct that you wrote the material that I just 22 read? 23 A. Again, these are rough notes. These are not even drafts. 24 These were written sometime in '97, '98. And these were not 25 included in the dissertation. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9705 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. But it was written by you sometime in '97 or '98? 2 A. It's notes, it is not thoughts. Notes. 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, they're your notes, you wrote them, correct? 4 A. Yes, I agree. Yes. 5 Q. Now, yesterday afternoon I also asked you about Salah 6 Hashim. Do you remember being asked the following question and 7 giving the following answer? This is at transcript page 9639: 8 "Q Salah Hashim was also a leader of the Al-Gama'a 9 al-Islamiyya? 10 "A I do not think that Salah Hashim was also a person 11 that I concentrated on. Maybe his name is mentioned but he was 12 one of the students in the '70s that basically started to 13 cooperate with President Sadat in order to form Muslim social 14 movement in the universities of Egypt to counter the 15 nationalist and the leftist movement. And he had the 16 president's support 17 "So, after that, President Sadat was killed, he was 18 put in jail, and I don't think he had any other role." 19 Was the "he" in that last sentence reference to Salah 20 Hashim? Was that your testimony yesterday? 21 A. I believe so. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, isn't it a fact that in the same document that 23 is now in front of you, Government Exhibit 706A at page 27, you 24 wrote the following: In upper Egypt, 10 students under the 25 leadership of Karam Zuhdi were elected to for the first general SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9706 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Shura assembly after the split. 2 Skipping a sentence, then there is a list of names, 3 Najih Ibrahim, Usama Hafiz, Salah Hashim and then a number of 4 others. 5 That's text that you wrote in 1997-'98? 6 A. Again, these are notes, yes. They were taken either from 7 my research or from a book written by the director of Amnesty 8 International in Egypt, Eha Bouraq. So, these are only notes, 9 they were not included in any draft of the dissertation, and 10 the final draft that I submitted around 2000 did not include 11 any study of the leaders of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. 12 Q. But, again, you were the person who wrote these notes at 13 the time? 14 A. These are my notes, yes. 15 Q. Now, isn't it a fact, Mr. Yousry, that although ultimately 16 you decided that your dissertation was only going to cover the 17 time period until 1995, that at one point you considered or 18 were planning having to continue later than that up to what was 19 the present time, when you were then working on it? 20 A. Not formally, no. I was collecting information for 21 probably a postscript for probably a second project but I did 22 not, you know, pursue that formally. 23 I don't think I have anything written formally about 24 it after 1995 and 1996. 25 Q. But you collected some information? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9707 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Just for the fact that I was reading the papers and also 2 for the fact that this might be helpful, because some of the 3 information you collect in '96, '97, '98, they project 4 backwards. 5 For instance, articles written about leaders of the 6 movement in 1999, they project backwards. They tell you some 7 background information about certain people. 8 So that's one of the reasons why I kept collecting 9 that stuff. 10 Also, I teach and that was part of my current affairs. 11 Every class you discuss with the students what happened and you 12 show them articles, translate articles to them, and you have a 13 discussion about it for 10 or 15 minutes. 14 So, that was also part of the reason. 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, you did collect some information and in fact 16 wrote some notes, correct? 17 A. I did collect information. I did write notes like any 18 other scholar. Yes. 19 Q. In fact, if you would look, please, at page 21 of 20 Government Exhibit 706A, which is in front of you; I'm correct, 21 am I not, that there is a paragraph that says the following: 22 Fifth -- 23 A. Sorry, what? Paragraph? 24 Q. Paragraph 21. 25 Fifth. The years of military defeat and restructure, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9708 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 1995 to present (an attempt at a new beginning) marked by the 2 movement's acknowledgment that it could not win an armed 3 struggle and, thus, a de-escalation of tactics to minor 4 military actions against tourists and local authorities. A 5 debate took place with regard to the character of the next 6 move: The formerly jailed leaders now wanted to "negotiate 7 with" (i.e., submit to) the government to stop all forms of 8 military conflict unconditionally but the outside lieutenants 9 were adamantly opposed because they wanted to regroup and 10 attack rather than give up. This debate was aired on the pages 11 of several Arabic newspapers, namely Al-Hayat and Al-Quds, 12 which prompted the outside leaders to organize the internet 13 site in order to exchange ideas without interference on the 14 part of the government or the public. 15 A. Again, these are notes taken by me in order to keep myself 16 updated on issues related to the topic that I was writing 17 about. These were never included in any draft of my 18 dissertation. 19 Q. Now, when we left off at the end of the day yesterday I was 20 asking you some questions about Rifa'i Taha and something you 21 had written about him in this same document, and now I am 22 asking about information that appears at the top of page 21. 23 With regard to Taha, you wrote, in fact, the following 24 text: Following Sheikh Omar's teachings, many of the activists 25 joined the mujaheddin in Afghanistan's fight against Soviets SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9709 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 thereby gaining military and leadership experience. 2 Upon their return, they helped reorganize their 3 military wing on a national level. Rifa'i Taha "who was 4 entrusted by the shura assembly and approved by the Sheikh to 5 become the actual ground leader of the organization," footnote. 6 And then the sentence continues: Played a major part 7 in organizing training camps for the movement in Afghanistan 8 and for building its military wing in Egypt. 9 You wrote that, correct? 10 A. And that's precisely why he was insignificant in my 11 research, because he was part of a military wing in 12 Afghanistan. 13 And also, there is a factual error that I wrote at 14 that time. They were never -- they were never allowed to go 15 back to Egypt. They were all prevented from going back to 16 their country. So, it's only notes. That's all. 17 Q. You wrote this back in -- 18 A. Absolutely. 19 Q. '97? 20 A. I collected that information, I wrote those notes. I never 21 included them in any of the drafts. 22 Q. Mr. Yousry, again, please, I need to ask you to let me 23 finish my question before you start to answer. 24 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor. 25 THE COURT: No, no. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9710 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: I would ask that the direction come from 2 the Court, not from Ms. Baker. If Ms. Baker wishes the Court 3 to intervene? 4 THE COURT: Well, question, answer, question, answer. 5 Let the questioner finish the question, let the 6 witness finish the answer. 7 Let's go on. 8 BY MS. BAKER:: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, you wrote this in 1997 or 1998, correct? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Now, the portion of the sentence in quotation marks prior 12 to the footnote, which is the portion that says, Rifa'i Taha 13 "who was entrusted by the shura assembly and approved by the 14 Sheikh to become the actual ground leader of the organization," 15 that footnote that appears right there after that quotation 16 marks cites Ahmed Sattar as the source, correct? 17 A. I asked Mr. Sattar several questions regarding my 18 dissertation based on advice by Mary Ann Weaver, who was 19 writing a book about the same topic. And she advised me that 20 Mr. Sattar knows things that probably would be helpful. 21 It turned out that Mr. Sattar doesn't know more than 22 anybody who reads Arab newspapers. 23 So, yes, I did interview Mr. Sattar, it was very 24 helpful, and basically I used his knowledge about the period 25 when the Sheikh was present in the United States of America. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9711 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 So, that's basically what happened, yes. 2 Q. Now, just to continue with other information that you knew 3 about Rifa'i Taha back at the time that you were writing this 4 document; Government Exhibit 706A, did you also know at the 5 time that Rifa'i Taha was one of the students who were elected 6 to form the first general assembly of the Islamic Group after a 7 split in leadership in 1978? 8 A. I don't recall that now but if it's in the document then it 9 was a note that I took it down from some place, yes. 10 Q. Directing your attention to page 27 of the document, to the 11 middle of the page within the second full paragraph on that 12 page you wrote the following, did you not? 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I object to the questioning 14 about the contents of the document. He said he does not 15 recall. She should direct him to the document, see if that 16 refreshes his recollection. There is nothing inconsistent when 17 he says I don't recall but if it's in there, maybe I said it. 18 So, he should be directed to the passage and asked if 19 that refreshes your recollection, not that the document -- 20 THE COURT: Hold on. 21 Ms. Baker? 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't believe I'm required 23 to do it that way. I'm willing to do it that way. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 25 MS. BAKER: I'm willing to do it that way for now. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9712 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MS. BAKER:: 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, would you look, please, at the second full 4 paragraph on page 27, the one that starts the AGIG leadership? 5 A. Yes, I see. 6 Q. A few sentences in, do you see the sentence that starts, In 7 upper Egypt? 8 A. Yes, I do see that. 9 Q. Would you read the rest of that paragraph to yourself, 10 please? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you wrote that 13 Rifa'i Taha was one of the 10 students who were elected to form 14 the first general shura assembly of IG after a split in 15 leadership? 16 A. Again, these are notes. Yes, I wrote them down but I 17 really don't recall that right now, recall something specific 18 about it. But it is there and it is my notes. 19 Q. And did you also write, in this document, with regard to 20 Mr. Taha right after that part, that he became the actual 21 ground leader of Al-Gama'a from 1984 to the present? 22 A. Again, maybe this is something that made me decide not to 23 write about him, because when it says underground Egyptian 24 government doesn't know anything about him, there is no record 25 about him, even in the police department. So maybe that's why SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9713 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 I decided to ignore this person completely. 2 But these were notes taken from videotapes that I had 3 from the trial in 1993 and these are my notes and these are the 4 notes that I wrote down, but I do not recall the content. 5 But if it's down under my notes, these are my notes. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I move to strike the answer as 7 non-responsive. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to the last sentence 10 of that same paragraph on page 27, would you please read that 11 to yourself? 12 A. Should I go on to the next page? 13 Q. I'm just going to ask you about the last sentence of that 14 same paragraph on page 27; does that refresh your recollection 15 about what you wrote about Rifa'i Taha? 16 A. I wrote it, yes. But I really do not recall where, you 17 know, I got it from, so. But I did write that, yes. 18 Q. And what you wrote was that he became the actual ground 19 leader of the Gama'a from '84 to the present, correct? 20 A. That is what's there. 21 Q. And you wrote it there, correct? 22 A. Again, yes. These are the notes taken down from the 23 videotapes provided to me through the trial of Sheikh Omar 24 Abdel Rahman, and I did all the translation for the tapes and 25 these are the notes that I took down, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9714 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you know, do you not, that Rifa'i Taha 2 signed the declaration of jihad in February 1998? 3 A. That is when I became aware, more aware about him in 1998. 4 And that is when the newspapers started to write more and more 5 about this particular person. 6 So, my knowledge of Rifa'i Taha increased tremendously 7 between the period of 1998 and 1999. Prior to that, there were 8 not too much writings about him except from the literature that 9 was provided to me through the case. 10 But, yes, I am aware of that and I've seen that 11 declaration; yes. 12 Q. And that was a declaration that called for jihad against 13 Americans and their allies, correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 It was a period during when the United Nations was 16 trying to negotiate an end to the embargo imposed by the United 17 States on Iraq. It was issued during a period where President 18 Clinton was trying to end this; yes. 19 Q. And that declaration of jihad alleged that there was 20 crusader Zionist alliance, correct? 21 A. I don't recall the whole language but, yes, that sounds 22 similar. Yes. 23 Q. And you were aware, were you not, that Taha signed that 24 call for jihad with, among other he will people, Usama bin 25 Laden and Ayman Al-Zawahiri? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9715 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is true, and that is why the leadership of Al-Gama'a 2 al-Islamiyya decided to fire him, because he aligned himself in 3 a battle that is outside of the group which is locally based in 4 Egypt. And that's why, throughout 1998 and 1999, the Arabic 5 papers were full of articles about that particular dispute and 6 the end result of it, which was Rifa'i Taha was expelled from 7 the leadership because he decided to do something that the 8 group does not endorse. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, going back to other facts or things that you 10 wrote about Taha, did you also write, in your notes, about 11 Taha, that he was one of the Al-Gama'a leaders who was sent to 12 Afghanistan sometime between 1987 and 1989? 13 A. If -- yes. If it's in the notes then I wrote that down, 14 yes. 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you would turn, please, to page 44 of 16 Government Exhibit 706A? 17 A. I'm sorry, page? 18 Q. 44? 19 A. Okay, thank you. 20 Q. And you will see there is a paragraph that starts with just 21 a single line at the bottom of that page. If you would start 22 with that one line at the bottom of page 44 and continue 23 through the end of the paragraph at the top of page 45? 24 A. It's the same paragraph that you asked me to read before 25 and it's the same sentence, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9716 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And part of what it says there is that Taha was one of the 2 IG leaders who went to Afghanistan between '87 and '89, 3 correct? 4 A. That is correct. And that is probably precisely why I did 5 not write about him, because there was nothing known about 6 these people other than maybe their names which they were 7 published in the papers after the government issued death 8 sentences to everybody that participated in the war in 9 Afghanistan. 10 So, they became known at that time as people who were 11 in Afghanistan. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, yes or no; you also wrote that one of the 13 purposes for the leaders going to Afghanistan was to gain 14 military experience to help train and organize a military wing 15 in Egypt? 16 A. I read that before and yes, it is in the notes. 17 Q. And while the Al-Gama'a leaders were in Afghanistan, 18 according to what you wrote, they divided their duties and 19 Rifa'i Taha was one of the people responsible for military 20 training, correct? 21 A. I probably wrote that down from the videotapes, yes. 22 Q. Would you look, please, at the end of that same paragraph, 23 the top of page 45, the last sentence. 24 A. I'm sorry, the top of page 45? 25 Q. Right, the carry-over paragraph -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9717 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. It is the same paragraph and it is the same sentence, yes. 2 Q. And it says that the al-Gama'a leaders divided their duties 3 and Rifa'i was one of the people responsible for military 4 training, correct? 5 A. Actually, I put "ALG." That was also my own system of kind 6 of, like, making the notes shorter but, yes, that's what it 7 says. Yes. 8 Q. And when you used "ALG" in these notes, that was a 9 reference to Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, correct? 10 A. In my notes, yes. 11 Q. Now, did you also write about Taha that in late 1985 or 12 early '86 the al-Gama'a leader decided to send some of their 13 organizers to Cairo to try to establish presence there, and 14 that Taha was one of the first to come and that he was able to, 15 or they were able to recruit some enthusiastic young men? 16 A. Again, this fact is wrong. They were not able to come back 17 to Egypt. And so, these were notes taken from tapes by the 18 leaders of the movement themselves. Those tapes were seized in 19 Denmark by the FBI, introduced in the trial of Sheikh Omar 20 Abdel Rahman and, as we saw yesterday, I crossed out things 21 that they said because they lie about their own practice. 22 So this was not factually true. But I wrote that and 23 it turned out to be factually not true. 24 Q. My question was, though, whether you wrote it. And you did 25 write it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9718 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I did. I took down those notes, yes. 2 Q. And did you also write, in the same document with regard to 3 Taha, that he developed the military wing of the group? 4 A. Most likely I did, yes. 5 Q. Directing your attention to page 46 of the document, the 6 paragraph at the very bottom of the page, would you look at 7 that, please? 8 A. Okay, I'm sorry. It's -- this document is basically 12 9 pages that are repeated over and over again, so I'm a little 10 bit just confused. 11 Is it the last page of 46? Because the other one 12 starts at 47. Is that what you are saying? 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness to 14 look at the exhibit? I didn't understand his description. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MS. BAKER: I don't want us to have an off the record 17 conversation so let me look at it for a minute and then I will 18 walk back and ask you some questions. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, if I understood what you were saying a minute 20 ago, you were essentially saying that the content of this 21 document is, to a certain extent, repetitive? 22 A. Yes, it is. 23 Q. There are some parts that are in here more than once, is 24 that right? 25 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9719 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Q. But there is a page with a page number 46 at the bottom, 2 correct? 3 A. Oh, 46. I'm sorry. I thought you said 26. 4 Q. 46. 5 A. Yes, I have it. You opened it to 46, yes. 6 Q. Yes. And if you would look at that last paragraph at the 7 bottom of page 46? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And part of what you wrote in that paragraph was that 10 Rifa'i -- meaning Taha -- developed the military wing, correct? 11 A. That's what it says here. 12 Q. And that's above the heading above the paragraph that says, 13 Fourth Stage, '90 to '95. Correct? 14 A. That is also correct, yes. But also this fact I believe 15 now is not true because it was not in the country. But it's 16 there and I wrote it, yes. 17 Q. Now, as you were just indicating, you came to believe at 18 some point that some of what you had written in this document 19 with regard to Taha was incorrect. Is that your testimony? 20 A. Yes. It is. 21 Q. So, even after writing this document you continued to 22 obtain some additional information related to Taha, correct? 23 A. Yes. 24 Articles about Rifa'i Taha became regular things in 25 the newspapers, I believe, starting in '98 after his joining SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9720 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 with Osama Bin Laden in the declaration of jihad against the 2 United States. 3 So, all the Arab newspapers actually started to write 4 about that particular dispute and whether or not the movements 5 in the Middle East will try to start an outside of their own 6 countries. And it was a big debate. 7 So, yes, a lot of articles were written about Taha 8 from '98-'99 that made me aware of a lot of misconception that 9 I had before. Yes. 10 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, do you remember on direct examination 11 Mr. Ruhnke asked whether you had ever spoken with Rifa'i Taha? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And your answer was never? 14 A. Never, yes. 15 Q. Do you remember that Mr. Ruhnke asked whether you had ever 16 corresponded with Taha? 17 A. Absolutely never, yes. 18 Q. And you answered never? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. But in fact you did communicate with Taha at least once 21 through some channel, didn't you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Isn't it a fact that you received answers from Taha to some 24 written questions relating to your dissertation? 25 A. It never happened, and the questions were not addressed to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9721 4BO5SAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Taha. The question was addressed to Mr. Sattar to give to 2 Mr. Muntasir Al-Zayat in Egypt. I never got any response back 3 about those questions. I never addressed anything to Mr. Taha, 4 it was addressed to Ahmed Abdel Sattar to give it to 5 Mr. Muntasir Al-Zayat. 6 Q. But you knew at the time that Mr. Sattar did in fact give 7 them to Taha, didn't you? 8 A. The first time I knew about it was May 19th of 2000 when I 9 was accompanying Ms. Stewart to the visit for her client, 10 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. It was written in that letter. 11 Before that, I had no idea. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, directing your attention back to Government 13 Exhibit 706A, the document in front of you -- withdrawn. 14 Before I do that, you testified, perhaps, yesterday 15 earlier in your cross-examination, that the function of 16 footnotes in a dissertation-type document is to indicate who 17 the source is of the information in the text, correct? 18 A. Yes. Not for this document, though. This document is only 19 notes, it is just saying Mubarak 42, Sattar, question mark. 20 There is no formal notes in these documents. They 21 were never adapted for any work, so it was just notes. And I 22 kept footnotes for myself in order to remember who did I get 23 that from or where because most of the document comes from a 24 particular tape, a videotape. 25 (Continued on next page) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9722 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER: 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, these were notes in connection with a 3 dissertation you were writing at the time, correct? 4 A. They were in connection to a draft that I was planning on 5 writing, but it never even materialized into a draft. 6 Q. If you would look, please, at page 24 of Government 7 Exhibit 706A. 8 A. Sure. Yes, I do have that. 9 Q. At the bottom of the page there's a footnote numbered 57, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And it says Saleh, that's S-A-L-E-H? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Werdani, W-E-R-D-A-N-I? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. 1 dash comma, P, number sign, 125? 17 A. Right. 18 Q. And P, number sign, 141, period? 19 A. Correct. 20 Q. Also, Rifa'i Taha? 21 A. That's from the tape, yes. 22 Q. The sentence in the text to which that footnote is attached 23 says the following, does it not: Basically, these religious 24 committees focussed on matters of personal dimension, not 25 aiming at changing the society nor its dominant ideology. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9723 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. It's from the tapes, yes, page 24, right. Yes. 2 Q. And it's the last sentence on that page, correct? 3 A. Yes, I do see that, yes. 4 Q. Now, just to give that sentence some context, when you said 5 religious committees in that sentence, you were referring, were 6 you not, to the fact that in the early '70s students at the 7 universities in Egypt formed what were referred to as religious 8 committees? 9 A. Yes, that is correct. And that was included in the tapes. 10 I think the tape is called the Story of al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, 11 and they have all these, quote/unquote, historical leaders of 12 the movement recounting their own experience. And they have 13 access to that tape, and that's what he said on that tape. 14 Q. So you are claiming that the information in this sentence 15 with the footnote to Taha comes from some tape that you were 16 given as part of your work on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's case? 17 A. It is not some tape. The tape is in existence, OK. And it 18 came from Denmark, and it is on the tape. And I've never met 19 Mr. Taha, never spoken to Mr. Taha, never communicated with 20 Mr. Taha. 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, have you ever communicated with any leader of 22 the Islamic Group other than Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 23 A. To my knowledge, no. 24 Q. Mr. Yousry, would you turn, please, to page two of this 25 document, Government Exhibit 706A. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9724 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Directing your attention to the second paragraph on 2 this page, you wrote there, did you not, this chapter will 3 attempt to provide a comprehensive study of the history and 4 development of the al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. In narrating their 5 story, I depend entirely on original sources collected over a 6 period of six years from North America, Europe, Asia and 7 Africa; personal and phone interviews with the top leadership 8 of the movement in and outside of prison in North America and 9 Egypt; original materials collected in the forms of books, 10 audio tapes, videotapes and fliers collected from Afghanistan, 11 Europe and ME -- presumably Middle East? 12 A. Middle East, right. 13 Q. You wrote that, didn't you? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, by at least late 1999 -- well, withdrawn. 16 You've testified here today that you were aware in 17 1998 that Taha had participated in this declaration calling for 18 jihad against Americans, correct? 19 A. I believe it was early 1998, February, if I'm not mistaken, 20 yes. 21 Q. And were you aware that in late 1999 he again expressed 22 hostility towards the United States? 23 A. Most likely he did, yes. 24 Q. Were you aware of that at the time? 25 A. I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I know that he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9725 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 issued a couple of statements later, yes. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a document that's marked for 5 identification as Government Exhibit 714. That's a computer 6 printout of a news article, correct? 7 A. Yes, that is correct. It has also my handwriting on it, 8 dated 10/14/99. 9 Q. And that's an article that the FBI seized from your office, 10 correct? 11 A. Yes, probably, yes. It has also a sticker number 5-113. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 714 13 for its effect on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of 14 mind. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, my only question is whether 16 this is from the same envelope that we talked about yesterday 17 that was the stipulation. 18 MS. BAKER: It is not. 19 MR. RUHNKE: OK. Then I have no objection. 20 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 714 21 received in evidence. 22 (Government's Exhibit 714 received in evidence) 23 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this is a newspaper 24 article. It is not received for the truth of any of the 25 matters asserted in the article, and it's received only with SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9726 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 respect to the knowledge, intent and state of mind of 2 Mr. Yousry. 3 All right. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 5 Exhibit 714. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would also like to display 8 Government Exhibit 2201B, which is already in evidence. It was 9 received only with respect to Ahmed Abdel Sattar for its effect 10 on his knowledge, intent or state of mind. 11 Ms. Griffith, would you wait, please. 12 I'm sorry, your Honor. I didn't hear you. May I 13 display that also. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MS. BAKER: Can you display them side by side, please. 16 BY MS. BAKER: 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, those are two different copies or printouts of 18 the same article, are they not? 19 A. I believe the one on the right probably is the original 20 article. The one on the left is a printout from a computer or 21 something. 22 Q. And the one on the left, the one that's marked Government 23 Exhibit 714, that was the one that you had which has your 24 handwritten date on it, correct? 25 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9727 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display Government 2 Exhibit 2201BT in evidence as the translation of Government 3 Exhibit 2201. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. And, Mr. Yousry, since 2201B and 714 are identical to each 6 other, you would agree with me, would you not, that 2201BT 7 would also serve as a translation of Government Exhibit 714? 8 A. Yes, it looks like it's the translation for that particular 9 article. Yes. 10 Q. The headline of the article states, Egyptian "Islamic 11 group" Leader Calls for "Stepping Up of Hostile Strategy" 12 Against the United States; correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And directing your attention to the first paragraph of the 15 article, that states, Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, considered by many to 16 be the de facto leader of the "Islamic Group" organization in 17 Egypt, in light of Omar Abdel Rahman's presence in a US prison, 18 has called for the hostile strategy against the United States 19 to be stepped up and given priority. 20 Is that how that paragraph begins? 21 A. That is correct, yes. It is not true but it's correct, 22 yes. 23 Q. And then it continues, The fundamentalist leader Taha -- 24 and now I'm skipping over a portion -- said in a lengthy e-mail 25 message -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9728 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: If, your Honor, we're going to read the 2 exhibit, I think we should read over the exhibit, not skip over 3 portions. 4 MS. BAKER: The fundamentalist leader Taha, whose 5 extradition is sought by Egypt as one among 14 involved in 6 cases of religious violence, has said in a lengthy e-mail 7 message, a copy of which was received by "Asharq Al-Awsat" that 8 "the United States' continuance in its hostile policy towards 9 the Islamic movement by which it means to harm the movement by 10 targeting its prominent figures in order to break its resolve 11 will certainly end in utter failure. Indeed, such a policy 12 will cause the factions of the Islamic movement to consolidate 13 their efforts and their policies to confront (what he called) 14 US rowdiness and piracy." 15 Have I read that correctly? 16 A. Yes, you did. 17 Q. And then the article continues: He added "the Islamic 18 movement does not claim to be stronger than the United States 19 in terms of what it possesses in physical capabilities and 20 human resources, but it is more powerful in terms of strength 21 of will and clarity of purpose." 22 He clarified, "the jihad movement in particular, given 23 that it is the largest of the factions to have suffered from 24 the hostile US campaign, cannot overlook these hostile 25 practices and will do all it can to rescue the Islamic Group SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9729 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 leader Omar Abdel Rahman (held in an American prison in 2 Rochester, Minnesota, where he is serving a life sentence for 3 his involvement in the New York bombings) and force the United 4 States to stop its policy of kidnapping leaders of the jihad 5 movement and pursuing them on behalf of the Egyptian government 6 or any other regime in the region." 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes, you did. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask permission not to 10 read the rest of it. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the question, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: The -- the government said it was finished 14 reading and said, can I finish reading. And I said, all right. 15 MR. RUHNKE: OK. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MS. BAKER: 18 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you also knew that there was a split -- 19 withdrawn. Let me back up. 20 There came a time when some leaders of the Islamic 21 Group called for a ceasefire with regard to their attacks 22 against the Egyptian government, correct? 23 A. It's actually a call that was ongoing from 1980 onward, 24 yes. 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, you testified yesterday that that call occurred SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9730 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 or gained force after the assassination attempt on President 2 Mubarak in Ethiopia, didn't you? 3 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes, I mean, I just need time frame 4 in order to be able to answer correctly, so that's all. 5 Q. I'd actually like to focus you on the time frame starting 6 in about 1997. 7 A. Sure. 8 Q. There were calls by some leaders of the Islamic Group for a 9 ceasefire in 1997, correct? 10 A. There was not only that, there was a mediation council, or 11 committee formed by the government that included several 12 scholars from universities all over Egypt -- scientists, 13 engineers, women activists -- in order to mediate between the 14 government and the movement. So there were attempts on both 15 sides in order to reconcile. 16 Q. My question was more specific, though: Some leaders in 17 1997 called for a ceasefire, correct? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. 19 Q. But other leaders were opposed to the ceasefire from that 20 time forward, correct? 21 A. Not necessarily true, no. When the movement issued the 22 call to end its military operation against the Egyptian 23 government in 1995, some people wanted the Egyptian government 24 to give -- to give them some prisoners out, to take some 25 prisoners out -- I'm sorry, to take out some prisoners to ease SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9731 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 the house arrest, to stop detaining people immediately. Other 2 leaders said, no, we have to just extend the olive branch and 3 see what happened. The groups that decided to extend the olive 4 branch was successful. The others opposed it but they went 5 along with it, yes. 6 Q. Mr. Yousry, let me direct your attention back to Government 7 Exhibit 706A at page 21. 8 A. Sure. Yes, I have it. 9 Q. In your notes you wrote under the heading fifth, the years 10 of military defeat and restructure, 1995 to the present, and 11 then moving forward to the second sentence, a debate took place 12 with regard to the character of the next move: The formerly 13 jailed leaders now wanted to "negotiate with" (i.e., submit to) 14 the government to stop all forms of military conflict 15 unconditionally, but the outside leaders were adamantly opposed 16 because they wanted to regroup and attack rather than give up. 17 That's what you wrote, correct? 18 A. I believe I said I see it before, and I don't have a 19 specific recollection to -- yes, it is written here. And there 20 is a couple of sentences before that that it says that the 21 movement acknowledged that it could not win an armed struggle 22 against a government. Therefore they decided to go for the 23 peace initiative. 24 Yes, I read that. And it's written here and that's 25 what it was written there then. This is what I'm saying now, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9732 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 yes. 2 Q. So at the time you wrote that, you were aware that outside 3 leaders of the Islamic Group were opposed to the ceasefire, 4 correct? 5 A. That is what it says there, yes. 6 Q. And, in fact, after some leaders called for a ceasefire in 7 1997, the Luxor attack occurred, correct? 8 A. Actually, the Luxor attack took place after even Sheikh 9 Omar Abdel Rahman blessed -- quote/unquote, blessed the 10 initiative, yes. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question wasn't that specific. Some leaders 12 of the group -- putting aside Abdel Rahman for the moment -- 13 some leaders of the group in Egypt called for the ceasefire 14 earlier in 1997 but then the Luxor attack occurred in November, 15 correct? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. And you knew that the outside leaders were opposed, as you 18 quote in the document, correct? 19 A. Yes, I did, yes. 20 Q. And you knew that Taha was one of those outside leaders who 21 was opposed to the ceasefire, correct? 22 A. If it's written down, then, yes. Other than that, I can't 23 recollect that now so I'm not really sure. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display Government 25 Exhibit 2415-11T, which is already in evidence for its effect SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9733 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't know whether I said 4 2415-11 or 11T, but I would like to start with 2415-11. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MS. BAKER: 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see Government Exhibit 2415-11 on the 8 screen? 9 A. I do, yes. 10 Q. That's a newspaper article, correct? 11 A. Yes, it is, from Al-Quds newspaper, yes. 12 Q. And that's an article that you had in your office, correct? 13 A. Yes. It was approved by Mr. Jabara, I believe, to read. 14 Q. For you to read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 15 A. Most likely, yes. 16 Q. And that's your handwriting that says approved by 17 Mr. Jabara at the top? 18 A. Yes, it is. 19 Q. This is an article from December 3rd of 1999, correct? 20 A. That is correct, yes. It's Friday, December 3rd, 1999, 21 yes. 22 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I now display 2415-11T. 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MS. BAKER: And this is in evidence subject to the 25 same limiting instruction. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9734 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. Same limiting instruction, 2 ladies and gentlemen. The article is received not for the 3 truth of any of the contents, but solely with respect to the -- 4 its effect on the knowledge, intent and state of mind of 5 Mr. Yousry. 6 BY MS. BAKER: 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, this article is headed Struggle Between the 8 Islamic Group Leaders, Mustafa Hamza Announces that he has 9 Assumed Leadership, correct? 10 A. I think it's missing one line from the heading. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 A. Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you the original article in Arabic, 15 which is in evidence as Government Exhibit 2415-11. You're 16 welcome to compare the Arabic headline to the English 17 translation. 18 A. The English translation is missing a line from the heading. 19 Q. And what does that additional line say? 20 A. It says, Rifa'i Denied that he Resigned. Islamists Confirm 21 that he did. 22 Q. Turning your attention back to the translation which 23 appears on the monitor, which is Government Exhibit 2415-11T, 24 the article begins, increasing signs of splits within the 25 militant Islamic Group as well as contradictory statements SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9735 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 about the leadership of the Group emerged yesterday. The Group 2 is considered one of the biggest organizations that oppose the 3 government of Egypt. 4 Have I read that correctly so far? 5 A. Yes, you did. 6 Q. It continues, Al-Quds Al-Arabi received a letter from 7 Rifa'i Ahmad Taha yesterday in which he denied his resignation, 8 stating that he will continue to work for religion "from 9 several locations" through the Islamic Group; besides, "my 10 membership in the highest leading Group organization." 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes, you did. 13 Q. Now, you understood, did you not, when you read that 14 paragraph of this article that when Taha was quoted as 15 referring to the highest leading group organization, that he 16 was referring to the Islamic Group's Shura Council? 17 A. Yes, he was. 18 Q. And if we could display now the second page of Government 19 Exhibit 2415-11T. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, if this is being admitted for 21 Mr. Yousry's state of mind, knowledge and intent, I ask that 22 the whole article be read. Because it can't be considered 23 unless it's read in full. 24 MS. BAKER: I'm sorry. I couldn't hear Mr. Ruhnke. 25 Did he ask it be admitted or read? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9736 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: I ask that it be read. It's being 2 presented right now on his knowledge, intent and state of mind, 3 so he should hear the whole thing. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the whole article was 5 previously read in its entirety, but I defer to the Court. 6 THE COURT: Actually, why don't we just take -- it's 7 about 10:48, and it's a good time for us to take our break for 8 about ten minutes. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, please remember my continuing 10 instructions. Please, don't talk about this case at all. 11 Always remember to keep an open mind until you've heard all of 12 the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to 13 the jury room to begin your deliberations. 14 (Continued on next page) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9737 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: It was a convenient time for the break in 3 any event. I had seen one of the jurors motioning a little 4 while ago towards the screen or something. 5 But I don't have the full article so I don't know how 6 long the article is. I don't know how long it is to read it, 7 and I don't know whether the specific paragraphs, what would 8 otherwise not be read, are necessary. 9 I'm told the whole article has already been read. 10 Unless the passages that are being read now are taken in some 11 way out of context, then I don't think the rest has to be read. 12 If they are, that's fine. Otherwise, you're welcome to read 13 the whole article on redirect. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: If there is something in there that you 16 think affects the meaning of those individual paragraphs, then, 17 yes, I'll have them read. But the whole article, no. 18 MR. RUHNKE: All right, your Honor. I don't have the 19 whole article in front of me. I recall the article. 20 THE COURT: OK. 21 MR. RUHNKE: And -- 22 THE COURT: Why don't you -- 23 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, sir. 24 THE COURT: -- look at it, and if there are some 25 other paragraphs; but if the whole thing has been -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9738 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: Yeah. And, your Honor, I do have an 2 objection at this point. This is becoming unduly repetitive 3 and time consuming. I mean -- and I have an objection. It's 4 time for the government to move off this line of questioning on 5 to something productive, more productive, sort of less time 6 consuming. So I object to it as -- under 403 as unduly time 7 consuming. 8 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Mr. Yousry gave testimony on 10 direct examination about the timing and scope of his knowledge 11 of Taha. And his testimony now on cross-examination is quite 12 different from -- 13 THE COURT: All right. All right. I'll allow it. 14 MS. BAKER: In any event, your Honor, actually, my 15 questions relating to this article are my last questions in 16 this line at this time. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 (Recess) 19 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, having looked through the 20 entirety of Government Exhibit 2415-11T, I am going to ask that 21 it be read in its entirety pursuant to Rule 106. It was 22 offered, and particularly the Court instructed the jury that it 23 was admissible only as to Mr. Yousry's intent, knowledge and 24 state of mind. And Ms. -- 25 THE COURT: All right. Pass the article up. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9739 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Which paragraphs did you want, Ms. Baker? 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I was going to sort of 3 summarize the remainder of the first page -- 4 THE COURT: Why don't you read the whole article, 5 then, rather than summarize it. Even though it's a -- an odd 6 objection on behalf of Mr. Ruhnke, who says too much time is 7 being spent on this subject and then says, read the entire 8 article about the position of Mr. Taha. 9 A more reasonable position, I think, would have been, 10 gee, if you're going to read that paragraph, then read this 11 other paragraph. But in view of the government saying that 12 they were going to summarize the article, fine, let's have the 13 whole article. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I'm willing not to summarize 15 it and to pick particular paragraphs, but I defer to the 16 Court's ruling. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't think there's 18 anything odd or inconsistent about the position; your Honor 19 obviously disagrees. But I'd like to have the whole article 20 in. I think this has been unduly time consuming. Reading a 21 four-minute article I don't think undercuts what I said. 22 THE COURT: OK. Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Let me 23 return the article. And let's call in the jury. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, should I start with the 25 article at the beginning or -- I think I had previously read SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9740 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 the first two paragraphs, but if it's all supposed to be 2 together, I defer. 3 THE COURT: You can read the whole article -- are you 4 sure there's nothing that can be cut out of the article? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I -- my view is that the 6 article as it impacts Mr. Yousry's state of mind should be read 7 in the entirety. 8 THE COURT: OK. The jury needs a couple of minutes. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, while we're waiting for the 10 jury, if I might address this issue a little bit further. 11 The Court has ruled, and I am complying with the 12 Court's ruling, but obviously as my cross-examination of 13 Mr. Yousry continues, I will be seeking to make use of a 14 variety of documents. And I would hope that every time I try 15 to use a portion of a document, I'm not going to be faced with 16 an objection that I need to read the document in its entirety, 17 particularly in light of the fact that in the direct 18 examination small portions of prison visits and prison calls 19 were made use of. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just to reply to that, 21 small -- Ms. Baker was given the full opportunity to make 106 22 objections to the excerpts we offered. On occasion she said, 23 please include other things, and we did. The position was, 24 since the entire transcripts were going in, it didn't matter to 25 her whether our excerpts were small, large or medium sized. So SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9741 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 I don't think that's a fair comment. 2 And I'm not going to always do something or never do 3 anything. I did not ask that the entire 701 be read or the 4 entire -- this particular document I believe should be read in 5 its entirety, and that's why I made the objection. The next 6 one that comes along I may not feel that way. 7 THE COURT: Hold on, hold on. I accept that, and I 8 agree that it is -- it doesn't follow that if the government 9 reads a portion of a document on cross, that the entire 10 document has to be reread for the jury for purposes of 11 completeness. And certainly there are some very long 12 documents. 13 This is a four-page article, and it is more -- it is 14 more expeditious to simply read the article rather than to -- 15 since the entire article has already been read and is in 16 evidence for the witness' state of mind, it is more efficient 17 to read the whole article again rather than pick over in this 18 article whether there are other portions that should be read at 19 the same time and to work out the Rule 106 arguments in that 20 way. 21 So both sides -- I take it both sides' comments were 22 made in complete good faith, and the reading of this article 23 doesn't mean that every time an excerpt from something else is 24 read, that the entirety of the document needs to be read to the 25 jury. They're individual decisions. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9742 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 While we're waiting for the jury to come back, and I 2 will stop this as soon as I hear that the jury is ready to come 3 in -- and it sounds like they're ready to come in. I was going 4 to ask about the government position on requested instruction 5 on the First Amendment. 6 MS. BAKER: We do adhere to our prior request 7 that that instruction be given, and in our submission that we 8 plan to make -- 9 THE COURT: All rise, please. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9743 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court; jury present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 3 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 4 are still under oath. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 6 THE COURT: All right, Ms. Baker? 7 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: You may proceed. 9 MS. BAKER: May I resume with Government 10 Exhibit 2415-11T in evidence. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 BY MS. BAKER: 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm going to read you this article now. And 14 basically my question is going to be whether I read it 15 accurately and whether you read the article when you -- around 16 the time that you received it or around the time that it's 17 dated, December 3rd, 1999. And obviously you've already 18 testified there's another line in the headline; I can't read 19 that because it's not in my translation. 20 Struggle between the Islamic Group leaders. 21 Mustafa Hamza announces that he has assumed the 22 leadership. London, Al-Quds Al-Arabi, issue 3289, December 3rd 23 1999. Report by Khalid Al-Shami. 24 Increasing signs of splits within the -- within the 25 militant Islamic Group as well as contradictory statements SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9744 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 about leadership of the Group emerged yesterday. The Group is 2 considered one of the biggest organizations that oppose the 3 government of Egypt. 4 Al-Quds Al-Arabi received a letter from Rifa'i Ahmad 5 Taha yesterday in which he denied his resignation, stating that 6 he will continue to work for religion, "from several locations" 7 through the Islamic Group; besides, "my membership in the 8 highest leading Group organization." 9 Usama Rushdi, a member of the Islamic Group [IG ] who 10 lives in the Netherlands confirmed the authenticity of Muhammad 11 Shaqwi al-Islambuli's letter in which he announced his 12 resignation and that of Rifa'i Taha from the IG's Shura 13 Council, the IG's highest leadership body. 14 He emphasized that Mustafa Hamza is the "Shura Council 15 chairman" and the IG's present leader, and that there is no 16 disagreement over this issue and that he is announcing this on 17 his behalf. 18 It is worth mentioning that Mustafa Hamza is the main 19 suspect in the 1995 assassination attempt against Egyptian 20 president Husni Mubarak in Addis Ababa. 21 Rushdi denied reports of an "organizational collapse" 22 in the IG, adding that the IG still includes several quarters 23 and trends. 24 He added that the resignations of Rifa'i, al-Islambuli 25 and others were "voluntary" and aimed at giving others the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9745 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 opportunity to assume the responsibility and run the IG's 2 affairs. 3 Rushdi strongly denied reports of a deal between the 4 IG and the Egyptian government which aimed at putting an end to 5 acts of violence in return for the release of the jailed IG 6 members and commuting the death sentences issued against some 7 IG members in the recent cases to life sentences. He accused 8 "some Islamist quarters" in the British capital, or 9 "Londistan," as he called it, of changing their tune when 10 speaking to the media. 11 He said that the struggle with the Egyptian government 12 is continuing but "with different means," adding that there are 13 some 25,000 IG members in Egyptian jails despite the recent 14 wave of releases which affected over 5,000 fundamentalists. 15 An Islamist source close to the IG attributed the 16 contradictory statements issued by the IG leaders to old 17 disagreements within the Shura Council over a statement issued 18 by Rifa'i Taha in which he announced that the IG was 19 responsible for the 1997 Luxor massacre which claimed the lives 20 of 59 tourists in November 1997. 21 He said that Rifa'i did not consult with the council 22 on this issue and on other important issues, such as joining 23 Saudi oppositionist Usama bin Laden's front, in addition to the 24 recent threats he made about the armed attacks that might 25 resume in Egypt. He added that he wanted to steer the IG SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9746 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 toward "certain directions." 2 It is worth mentioning that the Islamic Group did not 3 carry out any armed operation during the past two years in 4 response to an initiative launched by its traditional leaders 5 who are imprisoned since the assassination of late President 6 Anwar al-Sadat in 1981. The source denied the alleged 7 "struggle for power" over the leadership of the Group, 8 wondering what would happen among them if they were ever been 9 able to assume power. 10 He pointed out Taha's resignation following these 11 disagreements, and that he has "a copy" of it, except that he 12 refused to announce it. 13 Reuters quoted some fundamentalists who live in Egypt 14 and abroad their saying that "the Group's Shura Council is no 15 longer in power." 16 An Islamist living in London accused "some people" of 17 using al-Islambuli's name knowing that he has no way of contact 18 with the media. It is believed that both Rifa'i Taha and 19 Muhammad Shaqwi al-Islambuli live in Afghanistan. 20 The recent "war of statements" started last month when 21 Rifa'i Taha wrote an article warning against the government's 22 strong fist on Islamists, which can push some members abroad to 23 violent operations similar to the Luxor massacre. 24 It is known that the Islamic Group differs from other 25 fundamentalist organizations in its concept of "shura" SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9747 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 (consultation); the leader is committed to "shura." Therefore, 2 the "Shura Council" not the leader alone, makes the decision. 3 If a leader does not conform to this law, he would be going 4 against Islamic law. 5 Have I read that correctly so far? 6 A. Yes, you did. There is some -- couple of observations in 7 translation. If you'd like me to say that, I will. Otherwise 8 you read everything correctly, yes. 9 Q. Let's continue with the rest of the article. 10 Then there's another headline which reads, Sheikh 11 Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, I did not resign; no organizational collapse 12 in the "the Islamic Group" 13 Brother, Mr. Abdel Bari 'Atwan, editor in chief, 14 Al-Quds Al-Arabi. May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be 15 upon you. 16 Your newspaper published an article on its front page 17 under the the title "predictions of organizational collapse and 18 internal conflicts." It included a letter sent by brother 19 Shawqi al-Islambuli, may God protect him, with news about 20 his resignation from the Islamic Group. I would like to state 21 the following in this respect: 22 One, the resignation of one member or more from the 23 leader of the Islamic Group does not mean any organizational 24 collapse inside the Group nor any collapse at all. The Group 25 will continue to be strong and adamant in the face of any SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9748 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 attempt to demolish it. 2 Two, the resignation or nonresignation of the Group 3 members is an internal issue. The Group is not in the habit of 4 putting these causes in newspapers. This is not acceptable to 5 any son of the Islamic Group. 6 Three, I did not authorize anybody to announce my 7 resignation. I do not know if brother Shawqi is the one who 8 sent this statement to you or somebody else. 9 Four, I did not submit my resignation the way 10 presented in the news article. God willing, I will continue to 11 work for religion through the Islamic Group from several 12 locations besides my membership in the highest leading Group 13 organization. 14 Five, all the statements and interviews I gave to the 15 press express my personal viewpoint, as I said at the beginning 16 of each. It is possible that the person who sent you this news 17 article deducted it from the same interviews. The last 18 interview I made was published in your newspaper on Monday, 19 November 29, page three. It quoted me saying something in this 20 effect. This does not mean that the Group says otherwise or 21 that it renounced part of it. 22 The Group will continue to say the truth no matter how 23 much it costs. However, we agreed in our Group to distinguish 24 between the official statements of the Group and the articles 25 its leaders issue to express its general direction. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9749 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 I am writing this letter to make things clear. Please 2 publish it or at least refer to it on the front page, same as 3 you did with the former news article you received. 4 Please accept my best regards and respect. 5 Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, one of the traditional and founding 6 leadership of the Islamic Group in Egypt. 7 Did I read that correctly? 8 A. Yes. And it's what I recollected about that period, yes. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'd like to turn now to a different subject. 10 You testified on direct examination that the first time -- 11 withdrawn. Let me try it again. 12 You were asked on direct examination when the first 13 time was that you actually saw the Special Administrative 14 Measures. And your answer was, sometime in 2001, late 2000. 15 Do you remember giving that testimony? 16 A. I believe, yes. 17 Q. And is that correct, the first time you claim you saw the 18 Special Administrative Measures was late 2000 or 2001? 19 A. I believe most of the pages of the SAMs that I have in my 20 possession were issued after Ms. Stewart's visit of 2000. I do 21 not recall seeing in particular anything before that. 22 Q. Now, whether you had seen them or not, you knew prior to 23 that time that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman was subject to Special 24 Administrative Measures, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9750 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And you knew that he became subject to Special 2 Administrative Measures starting in the spring of 1997, 3 correct? 4 A. That is correct, before I started to work on the appeal, 5 yes. 6 Q. Did you ever -- withdrawn. 7 You were working on his case already by that time, 8 correct? 9 A. If I'm not mistaken, I started either June or July of 1997, 10 a few months after the SAMs were in effect. 11 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, you had dealt with the Sheikh earlier in 12 connection with his trial, correct? 13 A. Yes, that is correct, yes. 14 Q. Are you saying that there was some gap when you had no 15 dealings with him at all? 16 A. There was about a year-and-a-half that I only saw him 17 twice; once with Ms. Stewart for the interview of the Japanese 18 public TV, and once with Mr. Jabara for the ABC interview. I 19 believe there were a couple of other times that I worked on 20 translation for Mr. Jabara in relation to other cases, but I 21 don't think -- I don't believe I've seen him during this 22 period. 23 Q. You just made reference to two interviews of the Sheikh. 24 Those both took place prior to the imposition of the SAMs, 25 correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9751 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. They must have, yes. 2 Q. So just to make sure that I'm understanding your testimony 3 so far, you're saying you resumed dealing with him more 4 regularly in June or July of 1997, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. And you learned at that time that he was subject to the 7 Special Administrative Measures? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. At that time did you ask to see a copy of the Special 10 Administrative Measures? 11 A. No. Actually, I was told by Mr. Clark that I just have to 12 take guidance from the lawyers and they'll let me know what to 13 do. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you ever ask anyone to tell you the 15 substance of the Special Administrative Measures at that time? 16 A. No, I didn't think it was necessary. 17 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you knew, did you not, that there were 18 only a few, very few inmates in the whole country who were 19 subject to Special Administrative Measures? 20 A. I believe at the time I only thought that it was one. And 21 then later on I became aware that several other people were put 22 under the same restriction. So I was under the impression it 23 was only him in the beginning. 24 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that you were 25 aware that the Special Administrative Measures on Sheikh Abdel SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9752 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Rahman became more restrictive over time, is that right? 2 A. I believe so, yes. They changed the -- there was some 3 negotiation with the government but the lawyers kept telling 4 me, you know, this is what we should do now. This is what we 5 should do now. So that's my understanding, yes. 6 MS. BAKER: May I have a minute, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, just to pick up where I was, so you were aware 9 that the SAMs changed over time, correct? 10 A. Yeah. The lawyers tell me, you know, at some point, don't 11 read the papers; yes, it's OK to read the papers; things of 12 this nature. Yes. 13 Q. You were aware that there had been some changes in the SAMs 14 prior to the May 2000 prison visit, correct? I mean, I don't 15 mean immediately prior. I mean at different times prior to May 16 of 2000, correct? 17 A. If it happened, probably. I was aware of some, maybe not. 18 I didn't know. I mean, I don't know how many times they 19 changed. I don't know how many times they were amended. That 20 was the lawyers' job, not mine. They are the ones that dealt 21 with the US attorneys. I never dealt with the US attorneys, so 22 I really don't know. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, at any time prior to the later part of the year 24 2000, did you ever ask to see a copy of the Special 25 Administrative Measures? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9753 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. No, I never did, even after 2000, unless a lawyer would 2 hand me something and ask me to translate that to the client -- 3 which, by the way, the client never wanted to hear about the 4 SAMs. So that's when I started to look into them, when they 5 give me that stuff. 6 Q. Mr. Yousry, at any time prior to the later part of the year 7 2000 did you ever ask anyone to tell you more specifically what 8 the Special Administrative Measures said? 9 A. I actually was confused about that because I spoke with 10 Mr. Clark and Mr. Jabara. They talked to the media several 11 times, nothing happened. And all of a sudden, when Lynne 12 Stewart issued something, in my view all hell broke loose. And 13 I wasn't clear on why. 14 And I spoke with Mr. Clark about it and I spoke with 15 Mr. Jabara about it. And they basically said the government is 16 harassing them and they will deal with it and I have nothing to 17 worry about. And that's basically what happened. 18 MS. BAKER: Objection, move to strike. Nonresponsive 19 and hearsay. 20 THE COURT: Yes. Sustained. Stricken. 21 Please listen to the question and answer the question. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Judge. 23 MS. BAKER: May I have the question read back please. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 (Record read) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9754 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER: 2 Q. Yes or no. 3 A. No, I did not. 4 THE COURT: And -- hold on. Hold on. 5 MS. BAKER: I'm sorry. 6 THE COURT: If you think with respect to any question 7 that you can't answer it yes or no, you can just say that you 8 can't answer it yes or no and give an explanation. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, yes. 12 BY MS. BAKER: 13 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, Sheikh Abdel Rahman was a central figure 14 in the dissertation that you were working on all during this 15 period of time, correct? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. And for a period of years, from the middle of 1997 until 18 your arrest in April of 2002, you were dealing with him on 19 average something like twice a week, correct? 20 A. That is correct, yes. 21 Q. And would it be fair to say that the SAMs had a significant 22 effect on Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's life in prison? 23 A. Yes, I believe they did. He -- he lost touch with reality, 24 I believe. 25 Q. And, in fact, the SAMs were referred to or discussed in a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9755 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 number of prison visits and calls all during that period of 2 time, correct? 3 A. That is correct, in context, for instance, regarding his 4 family calls. One time I believe we were planning a visit and 5 then a prison approved the visit. And then they called back 6 and said, no, you did not send a letter 15 days prior in 7 accordance with the SAMs. 8 The lawyers had a fight about it. It turned out that 9 it was a new regulation. They were not aware of it. So, yes, 10 things like that we have discussed. I mean, I was a part of 11 the discussion that took place between the lawyers and the 12 client. 13 Q. Yet you claimed that you never asked to see a copy of the 14 SAMs prior to the later part of the year 2000, correct? 15 MR. RUHNKE: Objection. Asked and answered, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 A. No, I did not. 19 Q. And you claim that you never asked anyone to tell you what 20 the Special Administrative Measures said, correct? 21 A. I did not. 22 Q. But you did testify on direct examination that you had, I 23 believe your words were, a general understanding of the SAMs, 24 is that right? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9756 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. You understood, for example, that they restricted Sheikh 2 Omar Abdel Rahman's ability to receive mail, correct? 3 A. That is approved by the lawyers. 4 Q. I'm sorry. You're saying your understanding was that the 5 mail had to be approved by the lawyers? 6 A. No. My understanding is the lawyers would interpret what 7 the SAMs is and the lawyers would tell me what to do according 8 to their own understanding of what the SAMs is. 9 Q. Let me try my question again. Maybe you didn't understand 10 it. 11 Based on any information that you got from any source, 12 including what the lawyers told you, you did understand that 13 the SAMs restricted Abdel Rahman's ability to receive mail, 14 correct? 15 A. No. I believe still that the lawyers were in charge of 16 interpreting the SAMs and the lawyers were in charge of 17 approving or disapproving whatever they see in their 18 perspective that fits within the guideline of the SAMs that 19 they are dealing with. So I'm not really sure that I was that 20 specific. I never was. If there was -- I'm sorry. 21 Q. Go ahead. 22 A. No, that's basically what I was trying to say. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, as you understood this, at the time you were 24 dealing with Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, did the SAMs have 25 anything to do with Abdel Rahman's ability to receive mail? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9757 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believed in general that the SAMs were imposed on the 2 client to restrict his communication with the outside world. 3 However, I also believed that the lawyers were in charge of 4 implementing these administrative measures. They are the one 5 who understand the legality of it. They are the one that 6 signed the affidavit. They are the ones who were responsible 7 for telling me what to do. 8 So I took guidance from them. I did not take it upon 9 myself to either read it, interpret it or make decisions about 10 it. It was not my responsibility. And that was my 11 understanding up until today. 12 MS. BAKER: Objection. Move to strike, nonresponsive. 13 THE COURT: Sustained. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, yes or no: Did the SAMs have something to do 15 with Abdel Rahman's mail? 16 A. I don't know if that was specific. I knew that they 17 restrict his communication. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 19 Exhibit 2415-10 in evidence. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge the 22 main portion of the text from the line that says memorandum 23 down through the bottom of the page. 24 Mr. Yousry, this is a memorandum from the Bureau of 25 Prisons relating to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9758 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. I believe so, yes. 2 Q. And you had this document in your office, correct? 3 A. If I -- if I -- if you say so, yes. 4 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you move up a little bit so the date is 5 visible. 6 Mr. Yousry, do you see that the date on the document 7 is March 9 of 1999? 8 A. Yes, I do see that, yes. 9 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would scroll down further so that the 10 fax lines at the top are visible. 11 Mr. Yousry, directing your attention to the very top 12 of the document there, just across the top edge of the page, 13 that indicates that the document was faxed to you on March 10th 14 of 1999, correct? 15 A. I really do not recognize that number. It might have been 16 one of my old numbers. But if you said it was faxed to me, 17 I'll take your word for it. 18 Q. Do you recall receiving this document by fax from Ahmed 19 Abdel Sattar? 20 A. I really don't recall this document at all, no. 21 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you show the main body of text again, 22 please. 23 Now, Mr. Yousry, this says across the top line that's 24 now on the screen, memorandum for Omar Abdel Rahman. Correct? 25 A. I remember it now. I just read the first paragraph, and I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9759 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 remember what it was there about -- 2 Q. I'm sorry. You remember? 3 A. I do recall what that was there about, yes. 4 Q. So do you recall you received this document on March 10, 5 1999? 6 A. Yes, maybe, yes. 7 Q. Now, in the first paragraph this memorandum says, on or 8 about January 6, 1999, your attorney of record -- and when it 9 says "your," it's referring to the Sheikh, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. Your attorney of record mailed six audio tapes for 12 processing to you. Those tapes were received at the Federal 13 Medical Center in Rochester, Minnesota, on or about January 12, 14 1999. In accordance with the Special Administrative Measures 15 imposed upon you pursuant to 28 CFR Section 501.3(c), the mail 16 was forwarded to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for 17 review prior to distribution. 18 Have I read that correctly? 19 A. I believe you did. 20 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you show the next paragraph, please. 21 The Special Administrative Measures provide that if 22 incoming mail is determined by the FBI or by the Bureau of 23 Prisons to contain overt or covert discussions of or requests 24 for illegal activities, or actual or attempted circumvention of 25 the Special Administrative Measures, the mail shall not be SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9760 4BOESAT2 Yousry - cross 1 delivered. Review of the audio tapes revealed that they 2 contain discussions of illegal activity. Accordingly, the 3 audio tapes are being returned to the sender. 4 Did I read that correctly? 5 A. You did, yes. 6 Q. You received this document on March 10th of 1999, correct? 7 A. I believe I did. 8 Q. And it repeatedly references the Special Administrative 9 Measures with reference to tapes that were being mailed to 10 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, correct? 11 A. I had nothing to do with the tapes, as I stated before. 12 The tapes were either handed over to the lawyers, the lawyers 13 would send them to the prison. There's a process of approval 14 or not approving those tapes. I believe I was just given that 15 in order to inform the Sheikh, do not expect the six tapes that 16 we were told that they were sent to him, because I kept track 17 of that in my notebooks, when the tapes were mailed out, when 18 he was receiving that stuff. So I just told him that the six 19 tapes -- or I told the lawyers actually that the six tapes are 20 not, you know, going to be processed. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9761 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Objection. Move to strike. 2 Non-responsive. 3 THE COURT: Overruled. 4 But Mr. Yousry, please, listen to the question and 5 answer the question that's been asked. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 7 BY MS. BAKER: 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, you were asked to read this letter to Sheikh 9 Omar Abdel Rahman? 10 A. I don't recall. 11 MS. BAKER: May I have the previous answer read back, 12 please? 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 (Record read) 15 MS. BAKER: I'm sorry your Honor. I can barely hear 16 the court reporter. Can she possibly turn around? 17 OFFICIAL REPORTER: Sure. 18 (Record read) 19 BY MS. BAKER: 20 Q. So, based on reading this memo at the time, you told the 21 Sheikh certain things and you told the lawyers certain things, 22 correct? 23 A. I really can't recall the specifics but they must have 24 known about it before I did because obviously I got a fax. 25 So, I either informed the lawyer that this is what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9762 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 happened and they told the Sheikh about it or, you know, they 2 decided not to. I have to look at the notebooks but that's 3 basically the process. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you or did you not read this memorandum at 5 the time you received it? 6 A. I -- I probably read it, yes. 7 Q. Now, turning back to your testimony on direct examination 8 that you had -- I'm sorry, the exhibit can be taken down, 9 please. 10 Turning back to your testimony on direct that you had 11 some general understanding of the Special Administrative 12 Measures; you understood, didn't you, that they restricted who 13 could visit Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 14 A. I believe when the visitation was taking place in late '99 15 I was aware of the fact that only one of his wives can come and 16 visit. And anybody else has to go through a process of 17 approval. 18 Q. Approval by the government, correct? 19 A. I believe by the government of Egypt and the government of 20 the United States of America, because they can't leave Egypt 21 without a passport, so. 22 Q. Let me ask my question again. I'm not limiting it 23 specifically to Sheikh Abdel Rahman's family members. 24 Did you understand that part of what the SAMs provided 25 was that out of everyone in the whole world, the only people SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9763 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 who could visit Sheikh Abdel Rahman were immediate family like 2 his first wife, or the lawyers? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, did your general understanding of the SAMs also 5 include an understanding that they restricted the persons with 6 whom Abdel Rahman could speak on the phone? 7 A. I believe I was aware of that, just because of the process 8 that took place in the office where we put the person on 9 speaker, then the prison counselor or lawyer or whoever is 10 connecting the call will ask specifically for who is in and who 11 is going to stay in. 12 So, yes, I was aware of that. 13 Q. And, in fact, at the beginning of those calls, they would 14 also make sure that the call was not -- that no one else was 15 going to come and participate in the call, correct? 16 A. Yes, absolutely. There were a series of questions that we 17 went through almost every single time in the same order. Yes. 18 Q. Including also that the call was not going to be patched 19 through to anyone, correct? 20 A. Yes. Yes, that is correct. 21 Q. Now, did your general understanding of the SAMs also 22 include an understanding that they restricted Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman's ability to communicate with the media? 24 A. It was up to the lawyer to decide that. It was not up to 25 me. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9764 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm not asking about who made any decisions, 2 I'm asking what you knew about the content of the SAMs -- 3 A. No. 4 Q. -- did you understand that the content of the SAMs 5 restricted Abdel Rahman's ability to communicate with the 6 media? 7 A. In terms of communicating with the media, my understanding 8 was that the media is not permitted to go to him. They were 9 always refused access to see him. However, the lawyers 10 themselves, if they wanted to, to do something with respect to 11 the media, they would decide that. 12 That was my understanding. 13 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you have testified here today that you 14 first saw the SAMs at some point -- when in 2000, did you say? 15 A. I believe I started to see various versions of the SAM, 16 various revision after Ms. Stewart's press release. This issue 17 became all of a sudden a big issue and, you know, versions were 18 flying in and flying out. 19 So, I believe I started to see them around that time. 20 Q. Prior to Ms. Stewart's issuance of the press release, had 21 you ever seen any other documentation other than the SAMs 22 themselves that talked about the SAMs and what they were 23 intended to do? 24 A. Yes, I might have something similar to what you showed me. 25 Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9765 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. When you say similar -- 2 A. Like what you just took off that the prison is refusing six 3 tapes, things of this nature I might have, yes. But also in 4 context of lawyers and the government dealing, so. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 6 Exhibit 2405-4, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you focus on the very top line of the 9 page, please? Actually, from the very top line down through 10 the beginning of the paragraph with the text. I'm sorry. If 11 you would enlarge the portion from the fax line at the top 12 through the beginning of the paragraph of the text? Thank you. 13 Mr. Yousry, do you see towards the bottom of the 14 portion now visible on the screen there are headings, and the 15 second heading says Bureau of Prisons, Department of Justice? 16 A. Yes, I do see that. 17 Q. And two lines underneath that it says Section 501 -- 18 Section 501.3, prevention of acts of violence and terrorism. 19 Do you see that? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Do you recognize this document as a document that you had 22 in your office? 23 A. I believe this was a part of a paper that somebody was 24 writing about the SAM, some lawyers were asking Mr. Jabara some 25 questions. I do not particularly remember anything about it, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9766 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 no. 2 Q. Do you remember whether or not you had possession of it? 3 A. There is a phone number on top here that I'm not really -- 4 I can't recall but if it was found in my office then it was 5 found in my office. 6 Q. Was it faxed to you by Mr. Sattar on September 14th, 1998? 7 A. I'm sorry, I really can't recall that. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would go down to the first paragraph 9 of the text, please? 10 Mr. Yousry, this documents states in paragraph A: 11 Upon direction of the Attorney General, the director, Bureau of 12 Prisons, may authorize the warden to implement Special 13 Administrative Measures that are reasonably necessary -- 14 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I am going to object unless 15 there is foundation for this to be read. There is no cause to 16 read it into evidence without a foundation. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 BY MS. BAKER: 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you read this document when received you it 20 had? 21 A. I actually do not recall this document at all. I'm just 22 trying to think about it and I don't recall it. I'm sorry. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach and provide the 24 witness with the document? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9767 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you would just take a minute to look it 3 over. 4 A. I read the document, just -- I don't remember it, no. 5 Q. Reading it doesn't refresh your recollection as to whether 6 or not you read it at the time? 7 A. I'm sorry. It doesn't, really. 8 I was aware of certain things about the SAM at the 9 time in general and I don't think this is even a SAM or 10 something. I don't even know what that is. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 2312-37, in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge the top half of that 15 page. 16 Mr. Yousry, this is another document you had in your 17 office, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. And according to its title, it's Notification of Special 20 Administrative Measures. And then the dateline says, April 7, 21 1999 (modified December 10, 1999). 22 A. Yes, that's what it says. I don't know really when the 23 date that I received or that I had it. But that's what it 24 says, yes. 25 Q. Did you receive this document close in time to December 10, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9768 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 1999, the modified date? 2 A. I'm not really sure when I received it because most of the 3 SAMs actually probably had the same heading, modified something 4 in 1999. 5 But yes, I had several pieces of SAMs like that in my 6 office. Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you ever read this document? 8 A. As I said before, I looked into them after the whole 9 problem that took place, after Ms. Stewart's press conference. 10 I depended, generally, on the lawyers to tell me what to do 11 with respect to the SAM and that was it. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, as to this particular document did you -- 13 A. I can't tell, I'm sorry. 14 Q. Sir, please wait until I finish my question. 15 Did you, or did you not, ever read this document? 16 A. I had several documents similar to this one so I'm not 17 really sure I read through them after what happened in May of 18 2000. I'm not sure if this is a particular document that I 19 read. 20 But I read after that, in general. 21 Q. Is it your testimony that you did not read this document at 22 any time prior to the May 2000 prison visit? 23 A. I believe I did not read or I did not become engaged in any 24 discussion about the SAM prior to the statement that 25 Ms. Stewart issued in May of 2000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9769 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 If any discussion took place with the client before 2 that, yes. Other than that, I can't recall. I'm sorry. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display Government 4 Exhibit 2305-1, in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you would enlarge from the date down to 7 the -- thank you. 8 Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as another document 9 that you had in your office? 10 A. Yes. 11 Every 120 days, myself, I was approved by the FBI to 12 continue working on that case. So I don't think this is a part 13 of the SAM. I was told that every 120 days, as an interpreter, 14 I have to be approved and every 120 days the SAMs has to be 15 renewed. 16 But, yes, I have several of these, actually. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I move to strike the portion 18 of the answer prior to yes. 19 THE COURT: No. Overruled. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see in the one paragraph of text here it 21 says, on April 3rd, 2000, the Special Administrative Measures 22 (SAM) for Dr. Omar Abdel Rahman, was extended for another 120 23 days. Enclosed is a copy of your client's SAM and an 24 affirmation acknowledging receipt of the SAM. Please sign the 25 enclosed affirmation and return the original to our office. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9770 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Is that what it says? 2 A. Yes. It's addressed to the lawyers. I most likely was 3 informed about that but it is what -- yes. Absolutely. Yes. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, when did you receive this document? 5 A. It says April 5th, 2000, probably around that time, so. 6 Q. Did you read it when you received it? 7 A. Yes, the 120 days extension, I was aware of that, yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you please show the next page of the 9 document? And enlarge the top half of the page? 10 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, excuse me. Is that part of 11 the same document? 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 13 with the original exhibit? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I just want to ask one 16 question. May I stand here for a moment because then I would 17 like to take it back? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you the original of Government 21 Exhibit 2305-1; would you agree that's the cover letter that we 22 just showed on the screen, and then a multiple-page enclosure? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. And the enclosure begins with the half of the page that was 25 just on the screen a minute ago? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9771 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I believe it does. 2 Q. May I take it back? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I show the original 5 exhibit on the Elmo, please? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, this is the cover letter that I was just asking 8 you about, correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. And moving down to the lower portion of the letter, I don't 11 know how well the color comes through on the screen, but from 12 when I handed it to you a minute ago you could see, could you 13 not, that the signature here on the document is an original 14 blue ink signature, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. So, this is an original document that you had in your 17 possession? 18 A. Most likely, yes. 19 Q. Now, if we could go back to showing the second page of the 20 document, Mr. Yousry, that says across the top: Notification 21 of Special Administrative Measures, April 7, 1999 (modified 22 December 10, 1999). 23 Correct? 24 A. That's what it says, yes. 25 Q. And so, these pages, this enclosure with the cover letter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9772 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 is the same as the previous document I showed you, the one that 2 is in evidence as Government Exhibit 2312-37, correct? 3 A. The date on the government, the front page is 4 2000-something, so there is discrepancy of the dates but, yes. 5 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, this page says that the Special 6 Administrative Measures themselves were modified December 10th, 7 1999, correct? 8 A. That is correct. That's why I don't know when I received 9 it, but. 10 Q. And the cover letter says April 5th of 2000, correct? 11 A. Yes, which is five months later; yes. 12 Q. You testified a few minutes ago, I believe, that you think 13 you received this set of materials, this one stapled-together 14 document on around April 5th of 2000, correct? 15 A. That could be right. I really don't know when I got it but 16 around that time, yes. 17 Q. Prior to the May 2000 prison visit, correct? 18 A. That could be right, yes. 19 Q. Did you read the document when you received it? 20 A. If I was told to translate it to the Sheikh he never was 21 interested in any translation of the SAM. 22 I said before, I read, generally, the documents. I 23 relied on the lawyers' guidance. And I really do not have any 24 recollection of me reading a document from beginning to end as 25 to know what to do because the lawyers' job was to do that for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9773 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 me. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you or did you not read, when you received 3 it, this particular document in evidence as Government Exhibit 4 2305-1? 5 A. Most likely not, no. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, I have handed you one of your original 10 notebooks which is in evidence as Exhibit MY-1005, do you 11 recognize that as one of your notebooks? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Would you open the front cover, please? Inside the front 14 cover is there a newsletter there? 15 A. Yes, there is a newspaper. 16 Q. And is it now marked with a Government Exhibit number? 17 A. It says Government Exhibit 740. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness 19 again? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'm handing you now the document in evidence as 22 Exhibit MY-1005CT, and I'm going to hand it to you open to a 23 particular page. 24 A. Okay. Thank you. 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, can we find out what that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9774 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 particular page is? 2 MS. BAKER: Mr. Ruhnke, it is one of several pages 3 that all say in the upper right-hand corner 0815 through 0830, 4 or 30. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you. 6 Q. Mr. Yousry, that exhibit that you now have in front of you 7 is a copy of a notebook, correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. And it was copied with the various documents that were 10 inserted inside the cover or between the pages of the notebook, 11 correct? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And does the copy reflect that this newsletter, the one 14 that's now marked as Government Exhibit 740, was in fact inside 15 your notebook, MY-1005? 16 A. Yes, it was. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 18 740. It was already in evidence as part of Defense Exhibit MY 19 1005 but I would like it to have its own separate number for 20 specific reference. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Which page in CT is that? 22 MS. BAKER: That set of pages, 815 to 830. 23 THE COURT: Take a moment to consult. 24 (Counsel conferring) 25 MR. RUHNKE: I have it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9775 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. TIGAR: Is there a limiting instruction, your 3 Honor? If not, I will stand down, but I haven't seen it. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, it is offered for its effect 5 on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent and state of mind. 6 THE COURT: I already gave a lengthy instruction with 7 respect to the notebooks which were MY-1000CT through 8 MY-1007CT, and you are to apply the instruction here. 9 In particular, this is a newspaper article, it's not 10 admitted for the truth of any of the assertions in the article 11 but only for its effect on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent, or 12 state of mind. 13 All right. 14 BY MS. BAKER: 15 Q. Actually, Mr. Yousry, before I ask you about that item -- 16 your Honor, may I approach with Exhibit MY-1002CT, which is in 17 evidence? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, you previously testified that you had not ever 21 told Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman about the content of the Special 22 Administrative Measures because he was not interested in 23 hearing that? 24 A. I said -- I said I believed that the client didn't want to 25 hear about it. He would always defer to the lawyers, so. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9776 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 That's what I said. 2 Q. Wasn't it your testimony that, based on the fact that he 3 didn't want to hear about it, that you had never told him about 4 it? 5 A. No. I said if the lawyers discussed it with him I will 6 translate, but I did not recall reading to him from cover to 7 cover because he didn't want to hear those instructions. 8 That's what I said. 9 Q. Did you or did you ever not translate a conversation 10 between any lawyer and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in which the 11 content of the SAMs was described? 12 A. Parts of it maybe, three points, four points, five points. 13 I do not recall. 14 But those calls occurred frequently, there were some 15 questions about visitations, there were some questions about 16 limitation with his calls to his family. 17 Those are the issues that come to mind. But, yes, 18 they were part of the discussions, yes. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, would you look, please, at the page of Exhibit 20 MY-1002CT which is marked 0284 in the upper right-hand corner? 21 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display that page? 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, can we just establish the 23 date of this newsletter? 24 MS. BAKER: Actually, I have switched from the 25 newsletter to a different volume. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9777 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: Okay. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MS. BAKER: I am now referring to MY-1002CT at 0284. 4 Your Honor, may I display the Arabic version of that 5 page? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see that page on the screen or do you 8 have it in front of you in hard copy? 9 A. Yes, I do. I see that. 10 Q. That page is written in your handwriting, correct? 11 A. It is. 12 Q. And the top line says actually, in English, SAM, May 11, 13 '98, correct? 14 A. That is correct. 15 Q. Your Honor, may I now display the corresponding English 16 language page? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, my copy has highlighting on 19 it. I would like to display it with the highlighting, if 20 that's all right. 21 MR. RUHNKE: You can borrow my copy. 22 MS. BAKER: I would like to display it with the 23 highlighting, if I might. 24 THE COURT: Any objection? No? No? 25 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I object to the highlighted SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9778 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 portions, yes. She can use mine, if she would like. 2 THE COURT: Use it without the highlighting, please. 3 Point. 4 BY MS. BAKER: 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see that page on the screen? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And it repeats in English in type what was handwritten on 8 the top of the Arabic page that says, SAM, May 11, '98? 9 A. That is correct. 10 Q. And the next line underneath that is translation from the 11 Arabic Special Administrative Measures, correct? 12 A. That is correct. 13 These are summaries of notes that I took, probably the 14 lawyers told me to write it down. I do not recall, of course, 15 the content. It happened in 1998. 16 But these are some notes that I took down, yes. 17 Q. And you took these notes as a result of translating between 18 some lawyer and Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in a discussion about 19 the SAMs, correct? 20 A. That could be right. It also could be that I wrote that 21 down in order for me to be ready to tell him about it but then 22 he didn't want to hear about it. 23 So, yes, it's either in context of back and forth 24 conversation or in context of, Here, translate this. Tell him 25 about it. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9779 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And what the remainder of this page says is the following: 2 Concerning Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the lawyers, members of 3 their staff and those who work with him, they should abide by 4 this. And then there is the word "law" but it's crossed out, 5 administrative order? 6 A. That's correct. 7 Q. I'm sorry? 8 A. I thought you were going to ask me correct. That is 9 correct. 10 Q. It is short so I would like to read it through to the end 11 and then I will ask you if it is correct. 12 3. The Sheikh is prohibited from speaking to or 13 communicating with any other prisoners. At any rate, he could 14 be given permission to give and receive information. 15 3A. The Sheikh is forbidden to send or receive any 16 information, taped or written, unless it is from the lawyer. 17 4. Phone contact is very limited and should be done 18 in accordance with the former administrative measures. 19 5. No part of phone conversations should be 20 disseminated, and then there is a dashed line and then it says, 21 should be heard. The phone call is barred from being patched 22 through. 23 Did I read that correctly? 24 A. That is absolutely right, yes. 25 And it says the lawyers are the ones who give the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9780 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 permission. So that's consistent, I believe, with what I've 2 been saying, so. 3 Q. And, Mr. Yousry, if you would turn back a few pages to the 4 page marked 0277 in the upper right-hand corner? 5 A. I'm sorry, 276? 6 Q. 77. 7 A. Okay, thank you. I have it. 8 Q. That page is dated at the top 4/21, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, do you know on the page that's still on the screen, 11 page 284, is the date there the date of the SAMs that you were 12 talking about, or was that the date that you were having this 13 conversation or translating this conversation? 14 A. It says SAM, May 11, '98, on page 284. On page 277 it says 15 Tuesday, 4/21. 16 Q. Right. And I'm asking, looking at those two pages relative 17 to each other, the date on page 284, the date May 11, 1998, was 18 that the date of the SAMs themselves or the date on which you 19 were translating this conversation that's reflected here? 20 A. I have no idea. I'm sorry. If you would like, may I look 21 through it? Maybe I can find a page afterward. 22 Q. Sure. 23 A. Maybe this was from, during a visit. Maybe this was not a 24 phone call. I really can't recall but it's either a visit or a 25 phone call that took place prior to June 5th of that year. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9781 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And the year was 1998? 2 A. I believe that's what it was, yes. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I had understood that we were 4 going to break at noon, it is actually a little after and this 5 is a convenient point for me. 6 THE COURT: Fine. Thank you. 7 Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to break for the 8 day, as I told you, and we are scheduled to resume on Monday at 9 9:30. 10 There is a possibility of a circumstance that may 11 cause us not to sit on Monday. When this has happened with you 12 before what I have asked you to do is to call in to the jury 13 administrator by 7:00 on the day before; so it would be 7:00 on 14 Sunday. 15 As of now, we are scheduled to resume on Monday at 16 9:30. But please, call in to the jury administrator by 7:00 on 17 Sunday and you will get the instructions. 18 I assume that you haven't memorized the number, the 19 telephone number of the jury administrator, so I have asked 20 Mr. Price to stand by to give you that information when you go 21 out into the jury room for the number to call in. 22 Now, we are breaking until Monday, unless Monday is 23 adjourned, and it is -- first of all, before I give you my 24 continuing instructions, which I repeat with all of the force 25 that my words can convey, I want to wish all of you a happy SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9782 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 holiday and a very good weekend. 2 Please remember to follow my continuing instructions 3 with great care. Please, please, don't talk about this case 4 among yourselves, with anyone when you go home over the 5 weekend. Please don't look at or listen to anything to do with 6 the case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 7 please, simply turn away. 8 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 9 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law and 10 you have gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 11 Fairness and justice to the parties requires that you do that. 12 With that, have a very good holiday and a very good 13 weekend and I will look forward to seeing you next week. 14 (Jury not present) 15 THE COURT: Let me talk to the lawyers and Mr. Price 16 at the side bar just for a moment? 17 (Pages 9783-9786 SEALED by order of the Court) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9787 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (In open court) 2 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, I don't know what the 3 matter is but I want to bring to the Court's attention that 4 Mr. Tigar has left for the day and I am here with Ms. Stewart. 5 THE COURT: All right. I don't know what the matter 6 is and -- 7 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, at the side bar I think 8 Mr. Yousry's lawyers indicated -- 9 THE COURT: Maybe we could do this also at the side 10 bar. I just say that because the jurors are going to be coming 11 by and going out through that hallway, so. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9788 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 (At side bar) 2 THE COURT: I just want to keep things, and I don't 3 want to do anything in Mr. Tigar's -- I don't want to do 4 anything in Mr. Tigar's absence, even though Ms. Shellow-Lavine 5 is here. 6 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Ms. Stewart has consented that we 7 can address whatever this matter is without Mr. Tigar being 8 present. 9 THE COURT: Okay. All right, someone has a -- 10 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor. 11 Just a few minutes ago at the side bar Mr. Yousry's 12 attorneys indicated that they planned on calling witnesses 13 after Mr. Yousry completes his testimony. We are simply 14 requesting the names of those witnesses now. 15 MR. STERN: I told Mr. Dember I don't intend to give 16 him the names of the witnesses now unless I'm directed to 17 because as they have a right to, every time I give them names 18 of witnesses they call them. 19 I will give them to them in time but they can find out 20 whatever it is they want, find out about them, he says 21 accurately. They can talk or not talk, that's true. But I'm 22 not sure what obligates me to give him the names of these 23 witnesses now. 24 People really don't like getting calls from U.S. 25 Attorneys and I don't really want them put in the position of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9789 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 being cross-examined about whether or not they agreed to talk 2 to U.S. attorneys. 3 So, unless you direct me to give them the names now, I 4 don't intend to. 5 THE COURT: There is not a basis for me to require 6 that in the same way that I didn't require a government witness 7 list. On the other hand, the parties have cooperated. There 8 is the possibility of discovery material that has to be 9 provided in a timely fashion for the witnesses which would 10 otherwise indicate who the witnesses are. 11 I thought that the parties had worked out -- and of 12 course the reason for early production of that material is to 13 avoid a request for an adjournment after the direct of the 14 witness and to keep things moving. And I had thought that the 15 parties had agreed that they would do it on the same schedule 16 for defense witnesses that the government had done for 17 government witnesses, that material would be provided 18 sufficiently far in advance, whatever that agreement was, so 19 that it could be reviewed so that we wouldn't have the need for 20 a request for adjournment to review material. 21 MR. STERN: There is no such material for either of 22 these witnesses and, as I told Mr. Dember, I would give him the 23 names if they would agree not to call these people. 24 So it's not that I want to withhold the names, it's 25 that I don't want these people bothered. People are not really SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9790 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 that happy to come to court and are particularly unhappy to get 2 calls from the U.S. Attorneys. 3 I think -- and he will correct me if I'm wrong -- has 4 wouldn't agree to that, which is his prerogative. I'm not 5 trying to say he is doing anything wrong and I don't want 6 anyone to think that. I'm saying that I think I have my own 7 rights as I understand them. I intend to take advantage of 8 them. Unless we can reach an agreement. 9 My offer was to give them the names and that they 10 wouldn't call them. He is choosing not to accept that. 11 THE COURT: I don't know the basis that I could. 12 MR. DEMBER: Your Honor, if I could have a moment with 13 my colleagues? 14 THE COURT: Could or should. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it is also possible that we 16 might seek to obtain a proffer from Mr. Stern as to the 17 relevance of these witnesses. We might seek to move in limine 18 to preclude their testimony. And if we don't get the names 19 until we start on Monday morning and -- 20 THE COURT: He offers to give you the names, just not 21 for you to call them. 22 MR. STERN: And I offer to tell you what they're going 23 to testify to. 24 MR. BARKOW: That's fine. 25 MR. DEMBER: That's fine, under those circumstances. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9791 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. BARKOW: If we can get a call and some substantive 2 proffer. 3 MR. STERN: That's fine. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And the government is continuing to 5 ask for its First Amendment instruction so the defendants 6 should respond on the same time, which is Friday. 7 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Thank you, your Honor. 8 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, before we recess I was going to 9 address a letter to the Court but since we are here. Monday, 10 if in fact we are not in session, what my concern is is that 11 Mr. Sattar will still be produced and the only way that he will 12 not be produced is, and I would ask the Court to contact the 13 U.S. Marshals so that he is not produced and that wouldn't 14 happen until Sunday, otherwise the government obviously would 15 be able to do it in advance. 16 MR. BARKOW: We would not be able to do it, your 17 Honor, on Sunday ourselves, in this situation. 18 MR. PAUL: And they certainly won't listen to me, so. 19 (Marshal present) 20 THE COURT: There is a possibility, as you heard, that 21 we might not sit on Monday and if that's true, can Mr. Fletcher 22 get ahold of you to indicate that Mr. Sattar shouldn't be 23 produced on Monday? 24 MARSHAL: Yes, sir. 25 THE COURT: If you give a number for Mr. Fletcher, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9792 4BO5SAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Mr. Fletcher is going to be calling all the lawyers so he will 2 also contact the marshals. 3 MARSHAL: Yes, sir. 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: I thought the jury administrator 5 was going to get in contact with you but that doesn't matter. 6 THE COURT: Anything else? Okay. 7 I don't see any reason to seal this portion of the 8 transcript. 9 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: I see no reason to seal it. 10 THE COURT: And I have already said in open court that 11 there is a possibility that we might not sit on Monday. 12 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Have a good holiday, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: And you too. 14 (Adjourned to 9:00 a.m., Monday, November 29, 2004) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9793 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MOHAMMED YOUSRY 4 Cross By Ms. Baker: . . . . . . . . . . . . 9701 5 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 714 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9725 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300