9794 4BTMSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 November 29, 2004 8 9:15 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 9795-9800 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9801 4BTMSAT1 1 (In open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 5 good to see you all. 6 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher. 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you're reminded you're 9 still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 12 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 13 MOHAMMED YOUSRY, resumed. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd) 15 BY MS. BAKER: 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, there has been some testimony at this trial 17 about an occasion when an Italian newspaper posed some 18 questions to Sheikh Abdel Rahman. 19 Do you remember that testimony? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Ramsey Clark was the lawyer who was involved in that set of 22 questions being posed to the Sheikh, is that right? 23 A. Yes, that's right. 24 Q. And the questions were posed to the Sheikh and the Sheikh 25 provided some answers, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9802 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, he did. 2 Q. And subsequently those answers were passed to the Italian 3 newspaper, correct? 4 A. I'm not sure what Mr. Clark did. 5 Q. Well, you were involved in preparing answers to be passed 6 to the Italian newspaper, correct? 7 A. Yes, correct. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 A. Thank you. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a document marked for 12 identification as Government Exhibit 707A. 13 Do you recognize that as a document that you prepared? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you translated the content of that document and typed 16 it up, correct? 17 A. Yes, I did. 18 Q. And is this document the answers to the questions for the 19 Italian newspaper? 20 A. I believe so, yes. Either the full text or summaries. 21 Q. Well, if you would please look at it for a minute. It 22 looks like full text. Each answer is a paragraph long or so, 23 complete sentences, and so on. 24 A. I can't really give you a definite answer. It is either a 25 full text or a summary. I know sometimes Mr. Clark would ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9803 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 me to summarize the answer. So it is the text that I provided 2 for Mr. Clark, yes. 3 Q. Well, if you would look at it for a minute, please, I would 4 like you to tell me, based on reading the content of it, 5 whether it appears to you to be full-text complete answers? 6 A. I don't recall. I can't answer that with certainty. It is 7 a text that I provided to Mr. Clark. I am not sure whether or 8 not these are the full answer or summaries. 9 Q. And these answers were sent to the Italian newspaper? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Mr. Clark never told you one way or the other? 12 A. I believe Mr. Clark either send it to them, fax it to them. 13 I don't know. 14 Q. Well, that's what I'm asking you. Is it your belief that 15 these answers were somehow communicated to the Italian 16 newspaper? 17 A. Most likely, yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 19 707A. 20 MR. RUHNKE: Without objection. 21 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 707A received in 22 evidence. 23 (Government's Exhibit 707A received in evidence) 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach to retrieve it 25 from the witness? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9804 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, is it being offered for a 3 limited purpose? 4 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 5 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor, we don't believe any 6 limitation is appropriate. 7 MR. TIGAR: We would like to be heard on that, your 8 Honor, as to any limiting instruction. 9 THE COURT: Let's take it up at the break if there are 10 any appropriate limiting instructions. 11 Q. Mr. Yousry, there has also been testimony at this trial, I 12 believe, from Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart that Mr. Clark at least 13 had been involved in some efforts to try to get Sheikh Abdel 14 Rahman transferred to Egypt. 15 Do you recall that testimony? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Isn't it a fact, though, that Sheikh Abdel Rahman did not 18 want to be transferred to Egypt? 19 A. At some point he used to joke about it, but I am not sure 20 what his goals or intentions were other than he agreed that the 21 lawyers should pursue this. 22 Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the answer. 23 A. He used to joke about it. He used to say that the prisons 24 in Egypt allow him to have his own food, allow him to have his 25 own sermons, allow him to have his own doctors, and allow him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9805 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 to have visits every day. So I guess that's the reason enough 2 for him to want to go back. 3 Q. Putting aside things that he may have said jokingly, wasn't 4 it your understanding, though, that he in fact did not want to 5 be transferred to Egypt? 6 A. No, I don't think that is something that I ever thought 7 about. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a page of 9 Exhibit MY550-LT4 in evidence? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display 12 page 30 of that document and focus in on the -- thank you. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see the second sentence of that 14 paragraph, the gun that begins, they requested? 15 A. I do see that. 16 Q. You wrote that sentence? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. It says: They requested his transfer to Egypt, against the 19 wishes of the Sheikh himself, who Sheikh insisted that he would 20 never ask the government of Egypt nor the U.S. to release him, 21 correct? 22 A. That is correct. He meant he doesn't want anybody to beg 23 on his behalf, either President Mubarek or President Clinton. 24 That's as far as I remember. 25 Q. Mr. Yousry, you participated in a visit to Sheikh Omar SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9806 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 Abdel Rahman in prison on March 1 and 2, 1999, correct? 2 A. That sounds right, yes. 3 Q. And Lynne Stewart was the attorney on that visit, correct? 4 A. I believe so, yes. 5 Q. Now, during that visit you asked Sheikh Abdel Rahman his 6 opinion about whether the Islamic Group should form a political 7 party, correct? 8 A. Yes. The question was approved by the lawyers, yes. 9 Q. And Sheikh Abdel Rahman's answer was, in substance, no, 10 that the Islamic Group should not form a political party, 11 correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. Now, the request for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion about 14 whether IG should form a political party was contained in a 15 letter, correct? 16 A. I believe it came from Mr. Muntasir Zayat in Egypt. I 17 believe the request was submitted to Mr. Jabara in January of 18 1999. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was, was that request for the 20 Sheikh's opinion contained in a letter? 21 A. I don't recall. 22 Q. You don't recall whether or not you saw or were told of the 23 existence of a letter asking that question? 24 A. I saw a letter in January of 1999, yes. 25 Q. A letter that sought Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9807 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 whether the Islamic Group should form a political party, 2 correct? 3 A. That is correct. Because Mr. Clark was in Egypt at the 4 time and he wanted his answer to be given to Mr. Clark. That 5 is what I remember. 6 Q. Now, that letter from January of 1999 that requested the 7 Sheikh's opinion about a political party, that letter was 8 provided to you by Ahmed Abdel Sattar, correct? 9 A. Everything has to go through the process of approval. So 10 it was approved by either Mr. Jabara or Mr. Schilling or 11 whoever was in charge of that particular call. I do not recall 12 reading anything such as that without an approval from any 13 lawyer. 14 Q. Putting aside whether it was or wasn't approved, the source 15 of the letter, the person who provided the letter was Ahmed 16 Abdel Sattar, correct? 17 A. That could be, correct. 18 Q. Is that your recollection, that Mr. Sattar provided the 19 letter? 20 A. I don't recall who gave the letter to the lawyers. I don't 21 know. 22 Q. Did anyone tell you that that letter had come from 23 Mr. Sattar? 24 A. The letter came from Mr. Muntasir Zayat. 25 Q. My question is, did anyone tell you that Mr. Sattar had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9808 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 passed along the letter? 2 A. Probably, yes. I just can't recall. It is 1999. 3 Q. And you were aware, were you not, that Mr. Sattar was 4 interested in receiving an answer to that question about 5 political parties that was posed in that letter, correct? 6 A. That could be right, yes. 7 Q. Were you aware of that fact? 8 A. I just can't recall the exact -- I know that there was a 9 letter. I know they needed an answer in Egypt to Mr. Muntasir 10 Zayyat so he could pass it along to Mr. Ramsey Clark, and 11 that's about it. 12 Q. Who told you that Mr. Zayyat was the one who wanted the 13 answer? 14 A. It was in the letter. 15 Q. So you actually saw a copy of the letter. Is that your 16 testimony? 17 A. I did see a copy of the letter in January of 1999, yes. I 18 translated that to the lawyer in charge, and I was asked to ask 19 to -- I was asked to read a few questions from that letter to 20 the Sheikh, and I did. 21 Q. And you did that during the March 1999 prison visit, 22 correct? 23 A. I did that in January and in March, yes. 24 Q. Now, that letter, in fact, was from two men named Gamal 25 Habib and Gamal Sultan, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9809 4BTMSAT1 Yousry - cross 1 A. That was one of the articles in the papers, I believe. I 2 don't recall seeing the names on the letter. I don't recall 3 that. But their names could be mentioned in that letter. 4 Q. And you're familiar with who those gentlemen are, aren't 5 you? 6 A. Yes. I've heard of them, yes. 7 Q. And they are not lawyers in Egypt for Sheikh Abdel Rahman, 8 are they? 9 A. No, they are not. 10 Q. In fact, they were two people who were working to form an 11 Islamic political party called al-Isla, correct? 12 A. I know they were forming a political party, Muslim 13 political party, yes. 14 Q. Now, prior to the March 1999 prison visit or while you were 15 there at that prison visit, did you tell Ms. Stewart that you 16 wanted to ask Abdel Rahman his opinion about the formation of a 17 political party for the purpose of your dissertation? 18 A. That is one of the reasons I submitted a questionnaire. 19 Q. Did you tell her that there was another reason for asking 20 Abdel Rahman's opinion about forming a political party? 21 A. Yes. Ms. Stewart noted there was an ongoing discussion 22 about that between the Sheikh and his lawyers here in the 23 United States and the lawyers in Egypt. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9810 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 BY MS. BAKER:: 2 Q. Now, is it your testimony that you saw one letter or more 3 than one letter seeking Abdel Rahman's opinion about that 4 issue? 5 A. I just can't recall. I believe it's only one letter in 6 January of 1999. I don't recall anything else. 7 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart about that letter? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Now, during the March 1999 prison visit, you were the 10 person who actually posed the question to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 11 about forming the political party, correct? 12 A. Yes, I did, after the approval of Ms. Stewart. Yes. 13 Q. But you were the person who asked the question. In other 14 words, it wasn't her question that you translated, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Now, backing up in time to 1997, there came a time in 1997 17 when Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman made a statement in which he 18 expressed support for the Islamic Group's cease-fire, correct? 19 A. I believe this was done in August of 1997, yes. 20 Q. And now, moving back to the time that we were just talking 21 about, the prison visit on March 1st and 2nd of 1999; during 22 that visit Sheikh Abdel Rahman was asked to reconsider his 23 support for the Islamic Group's cease-fire, correct? 24 A. In March of 1999 you said? 25 Q. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9811 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. I know that there were ongoing discussions about it. I 2 know that they were discussing a few things, the leadership of 3 that movement in Egypt were writing a few books, changing their 4 strategy. I just can't recall the specifics of 1999. I know 5 there was a question about the Egyptian government not doing 6 their part of the agreement. Things of this nature. But I 7 really don't recall the specifics. 8 Q. So, your testimony is you do not recall asking Sheikh Abdel 9 Rahman during the March 1999 prison visit a question relating 10 to trying to get him to reconsider his support for the Islamic 11 Group's cease-fire? 12 A. No. I recall that there was a question about difference of 13 opinions, and that was published in the papers and I needed to 14 know his comments on that. I recall that. 15 Other than that, I really can't recall. 16 Q. You don't recall asking him a question trying to get him to 17 reconsider his support for the cease-fire? 18 A. I just don't recall. I'm sorry. 19 Q. Do you recall him saying that the jailed leaders who 20 supported the cease-fire should be given some additional time 21 and that he wasn't prepared to reconsider at that point? 22 A. I -- it sounds like something that he would say but I still 23 don't recall that specific, no. 24 Q. Do you recall him saying that nothing new should be done 25 without his -- without consulting with him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9812 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is not in March of 1999. If you are referring to 2 this. This was in September of 1999, a visit by Mr. Ramsey 3 Clark. This has nothing to do in the visit in March by 4 Ms. Lynne Stewart. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 6 Exhibit MY-550LT 4, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you please display page 2 of MY-550LT-4 9 and focus in on the next to last paragraph? 10 Mr. Yousry, let me direct your attention to the 11 fourth -- starting with the fourth sentence of the paragraph. 12 Please let me know if I'm reading this correctly. 13 On Sunday, August 3rd, 1997, the Sheikh was told the 14 requested by Mr. Clark to which the Sheikh sadly replied, they 15 stood for the sake of God and now they want to stop also for 16 the sake of God. On 3/2/99 the Sheikh was asked to reconsider 17 his position by leaders who oppose the initiative. He replied, 18 "let's wait and see what they would accomplish before 19 reconsidering our position." On the same day, he was asked by 20 Mr. Kamal Habil and Gamal Sultan about forming a Muslim party 21 and compete in the election. This made the Sheikh angry. He 22 kept asking God to give him patience and replied "no" citing 23 several reasons we were discuss in details when Sheikh and 24 democracy, correct? 25 A. These are also part of the rough notes that I never SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9813 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 submitted and there are two factual mistakes there. 2 It's in September of 1999, not in March of 1999, 3 according to my notebooks. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, you wrote that passage, correct? 5 A. I did, but it's factually wrong. 6 Q. You wrote that passage closer in time to the events at 7 issue than we are sitting here today, correct? 8 A. I wrote this passage in order to discuss with my advisor, 9 Professor Zachary Lockman, the extension of the end of the date 10 from 1995 to 1997 in order to include the cease-fire. This was 11 done in, like, probably a day or two, it was done from memory. 12 I made a mistake. 13 And currently, if you look up my notes September of 14 1999 it's the answers that I wrote down and I attributed that 15 to March. It was wrong, it is in September, and the notebooks 16 show that. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, my question was when you wrote that you were 18 closer in time -- 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. -- to when the events had occurred than we are today, 21 correct? 22 A. Absolutely, yes. 23 Q. And the part, at least you would agree with me about the 24 part that the political parties is, correct, that happened on 25 March 2nd, 1999? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9814 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is one fact. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. But it's your testimony that you claim that the other part 3 of it is inaccurate, the part of the cease-fire? 4 A. According to my notebooks, which is the accurate thing that 5 I depend on, it is wrong. The fact that we just read is wrong, 6 that's why they are only notes. 7 Q. Turning to a different topic -- and the exhibit can be 8 taken down, thank you. 9 Mr. Yousry, the term Abu, A-B-U, in Arabic literally 10 means father of, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. And in at least certain Arabic cultures it's common for a 13 man to be addressed or referred to not by his own given name, 14 his first name, but instead using the term Abu plus the name of 15 his oldest child, correct? 16 A. That is correct, yes. 17 Q. But isn't it true that a man may also be addressed or 18 referred to by an Abu name that is not derived from the name of 19 his oldest child? 20 A. Absolutely. Yasser Arafat is a perfect example. He used 21 to be called Abu Ahmar and he never had a son called Ahmar, so, 22 yes, you are right. 23 Q. And, in fact, you referred to Mr. Sattar as Abu Hmaid, 24 correct? 25 A. That's a nickname for people who are called Ahmed. There SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9815 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 are millions of Ahmeds in Egypt, so. 2 Q. But my question was that is how he referred to him, 3 correct? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And is it spelled H-M-A-I-D, correct? 6 A. Transliteration probably, yeah. H-E-M-A-I-D, yes. 7 Q. But, in fact, Mr. Sattar's oldest child is his son Omar, 8 correct? 9 A. That is correct, yes. 10 Q. So, it would also be appropriate to address or refer to 11 Mr. Sattar as Abu Omar, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And you have known that for a long time, correct? 14 A. I'm not sure what I -- you mean his oldest, the name of his 15 oldest child? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. Yes, I did. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, you have known Mr. Sattar since 1993 19 approximately? 20 A. No, 1995. March of 1995 was the first time I met 21 Mr. Sattar. I met him the same day that I met Ms. Stewart. 22 Q. And you have known that it would be appropriate to refer to 23 him as Abu Omar for almost as long as you have known him 24 probably, correct? 25 A. I don't address people using that Abu so-and-so except for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9816 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 nicknames, so I don't think I called him Abu Omar. 2 Q. My question was given though, not whether or not you called 3 him that, but whether or not you knew that he could properly be 4 addressed that way because that was his son's name? 5 A. Sure. Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to find an 7 exhibit? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, just to back up for a minute about the March 10 1999 prison visit. You did ask Sheikh Abdel Rahman during that 11 visit about the cease-fire, correct? 12 A. I believe the question was in March of 1999. According to 13 the notes that I was shown by the government I believe it's a 14 question from Al-Hayat newspaper and the question was There are 15 disagreements about the cease-fire. So, that's what I recall, 16 yes. 17 Q. So you're not claiming that the subject of the cease-fire 18 was not discussed at all, are you? 19 A. No. I'm just saying this is what I recall. There were two 20 questions I asked him after being approved by the lawyers, and 21 those couple of questions had a specific and immediate impact 22 on my writing. And at the same time they were ongoing 23 questions between the Sheikh and the lawyers here in the United 24 States -- Mr. Clark, Mr. Jabara and Ms. Stewart. That's all. 25 Q. I'm trying to figure out though, when I showed you that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9817 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 piece of your dissertation a few minutes ago, you indicated 2 that you now believe that some portion of it was inaccurate so 3 I'm trying to narrow down, specifically, which part you're 4 claiming is inaccurate. 5 You agree that you did ask the Sheikh his opinion 6 about forming a political party on March 9th of 1999, correct? 7 A. That was a question approved by the lawyers for the two 8 purposes, yes. 9 Q. And you asked him that on March 2nd, 1999, as it says in 10 the draft of your dissertation, correct? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And you also did ask him about the cease-fire on March 2nd 13 of 1999, correct? 14 A. I believe that was in reference to an article published in 15 Al-Hayat newspaper, yes. 16 Q. And so, your claim is that the fact that he was asked to 17 reconsider his position about the cease-fire was not asked 18 during the March 2nd, 1999 visit? 19 A. I don't remember. I just remember what I wrote down and it 20 says, there was an article in Al-Hayat newspaper and some 21 opinions are asking to ask the Egyptian government to fulfill 22 its part from that agreement. That's what I remember. 23 I remember that the specific question came up during 24 Mr. Ramsey Clark's visit in March of -- I'm sorry, in September 25 of 1999. Other than that, I don't recall. I'm sorry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9818 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may we display Government 2 Exhibit 2415-6T, in evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. Is that 16 or 6T? 4 MS. BAKER: The latter, 6 and then the letter T. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. Ms. Griffith, would you focus in on the top half of the 7 page, please? 8 And Mr. Yousry, if you would like to see your original 9 Arabic notes I would be happy to provide those to you, but this 10 is the translation of notes that you wrote during the visit on 11 March 2nd, 1999, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. It's one page of two pages document. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could you ask Mr. Yousry to 14 just sort of back away from the microphone and not speak so 15 quite directly into it? 16 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry, back away from the microphone 17 a bit but keep your voice up so that the voice projects through 18 the microphone. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, is it your testimony that there were originally 21 two pages of notes? 22 A. I believe so, yes; according to the FBI labeling of the 23 material that was seized from my house. Yes. 24 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9819 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you your original handwritten notes 2 which are in evidence as Government Exhibit 2415-6. 3 A. That is correct, yes. 4 Q. Is it your testimony that there is a second page of notes? 5 A. There is another page that was taken from my notebook by 6 the FBI on April 9th of 2002 that contains other answers and 7 questions with respect to the critical part, yes. And it's 8 dated January 15, 1999. 9 Q. I'm not sure I'm following your testimony. 10 I'm asking you about notes relating to the visit on 11 March 2nd, 1999; was there any other page of notes that you 12 wrote on March 2nd, 1999? 13 A. Yes. I had my own notes that I took on January 15 of 1999 14 and I asked the Sheikh about those answers and he dictated the 15 new answer. 16 So, there were two pages together and this is only one 17 part. 18 Q. Are you saying that when you were at the visit on March 19 2nd, 1999, you had with you notes that you had previously 20 written in January? 21 A. Yes. That's the same -- that's why it's two-part document, 22 yes. 23 Q. But that other page that you are now referring to was 24 written in January 1999, correct? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9820 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Is this 2415-6, this is the only page that you wrote on 2 March 2nd, 1999, correct? 3 A. With respect to these two questions, yes. But there were 4 several other notes taken, yes. 5 Q. Was this page originally part of your note book? Right now 6 it's a separate page? 7 A. No, I think it's a separate page. It has a three-hole 8 punch so I kept them in another folder in order to refer back 9 to if the lawyers asked a question or if they want to refer to 10 it for my dissertation, yes. 11 Q. And is it your testimony that the other page, the one that 12 you wrote in January 1999, was physically attached in your 13 notebook or was it different? 14 A. No, they were together. They were together in whatever 15 place they were taken from. 16 Q. Okay, so in other words, that page from January 1999 was 17 also a loose piece of paper not physically attached in the 18 notebook? 19 A. I believe so. I had a lot of paper that I filed. 20 Q. Now, directing your attention to the translation of your 21 notes which is on the screen right now which is in evidence as 22 Government Exhibit 2415-6T, and if you would like, please refer 23 to the Arabic original notes that you have in front of you; at 24 the top of the page it says in English, Lynne Stewart, and then 25 3/2/99, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9821 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. And then the next line is translated from the Arabic, 3 correct? 4 A. That is correct. 5 Q. The part that says, "a response to Al-Hayat (this could be 6 used in a doctorate dissertation). 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. That's in Arabic in your own notes, correct? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And then your notes say, in English, approved by Lynne 11 Stewart, correct? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. So, under the line where it says, a response to Al-Hayat, 14 it then has the two questions that were posed to Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman, correct? 16 A. Correct, yes. 17 Q. And following each question there is an answer, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. Now, the second question that was posed to Sheikh Abdel 20 Rahman which asks his opinion about forming a political party, 21 that was not based on an article in Al-Hayat, correct? That 22 was something that you claimed was based on a letter that you 23 said was from Muntasir Al-Zayat, correct? 24 A. It was published in Al-Hayat newspapers and that's why the 25 second page is important, because it says Al-Hayat, January 15, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9822 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 1999. And it stated what the article has said and stated also 2 that it was published in another magazine in Egypt that was 3 called Rozaluossef, R-O-Z-A-L-U-O-S-S-E-F. And that's why it 4 would make the picture clearer if we have the second page. 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, was there or was there not a letter from, which 6 you say was from Muntasir Al-Zayat? 7 A. In January of 1999, yes. 8 Q. And that letter -- let me -- withdrawn. Let me try again. 9 Are we agreed that part of the purpose of the letter 10 was to seek the Sheikh's opinion about forming a political 11 party? 12 A. Yes. They wanted to take advantage on the fact that 13 Mr. Clark was in Egypt, yes. 14 Q. It sought his opinion about forming a political party? 15 A. Yes, it did. 16 Q. And your testimony is it was from Mr. Al-Zayat? 17 A. I believe so, yes. 18 Q. Thank you. You can take down the exhibit. 19 Mr. Yousry, Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson for 20 Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in North America, correct? 21 MR. PAUL: Objection. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 23 MR. PAUL: Objection to the form of the question. 24 THE COURT: I will take it for the witness' 25 understanding. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9823 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 THE WITNESS: It was my understanding in 1995, 1996 2 that, according to all the news reports, that Mr. Sattar is the 3 spokesperson, but I found out later that I was wrong and I 4 never included that in drafts of my dissertation. 5 Q. Well, Mr. Yousry, you still believed that to be the case in 6 1998 or 1999, didn't you? 7 A. I might have that written down some place but I don't think 8 that Mr. Sattar is the spokesperson of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. 9 He didn't know much about it other than what was written in the 10 newspapers. 11 He knew a lot about the Sheikh's experience in the 12 United States and I believe I corrected my understanding by 13 saying that he was the chairperson of the committee to defend 14 Omar Abdel Rahman in New York. I think that was in the last 15 versions submitted to Professor Lockman. 16 Q. Mr. Yousry, in 1998 or 1999, in notes for your 17 dissertation, you wrote that Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson 18 for Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya in North America, did you not? 19 A. That could be right, yes. 20 Q. Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 23 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you the document marked for 24 identification as Government Exhibit 706A. If you would turn, 25 please, to the second page and look at the second sentence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9824 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes, I have that. 2 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you wrote in 1998 3 or 1999 that Mr. Sattar was the spokesperson for Al-Gama'a 4 al-Islamiyya in North America? 5 A. These are the same notes that -- you know, these are like 6 raw research notes and I did write that. And as I check my 7 notes and I researched further, several facts were found out to 8 be wrong here and this is one of them. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, you also believed, did you not, that Mr. Sattar 10 was Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's spokesperson? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, over the years that you've known Mr. Sattar he has, on 13 occasion, told you various things about his views about the 14 Islamic Group, correct? 15 A. Yes, he did. 16 Q. And he's also told you things about his views about Sheikh 17 Omar Abdel Rahman? 18 A. Yes, he did. 19 Q. So you were aware, were you not, that Mr. Sattar believes 20 in the politics that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman subscribes to, 21 correct? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you're aware, or you were aware that Mr. Sattar also 24 believes in the fatwas that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman issues? 25 A. In general he believes that Omar Abdel Rahman is a person SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9825 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 who also always speaks the truth, yes. So, I'm not really 2 sure. 3 Q. And Mr. Sattar also believed that Sheikh Abdel Rahman was 4 one of the leaders of the Islamic Group, correct? 5 A. Yes, that is correct. 6 Q. Now, Mr. Yousry, you participated in visiting Sheikh Abdel 7 Rahman in prison on May 19th and 20th of 2000, correct? 8 A. That is right, yes. 9 Q. Now, before you went on that visit you had become aware, 10 had you not, that in or about March of 2000 some individuals 11 claiming to be part of the Abu Sayyaf terrorist group had 12 committed a kidnapping in the Philippines? 13 A. We read articles about the Philippines, about Kashmir, Abu 14 Sayyafs groups, several other groups, yes. I read that, yes. 15 Q. And you knew from the articles that you had read that they 16 kidnapped approximately 29 hostages, correct? 17 A. That is -- that sounds right, yes. 18 Q. And you knew from the articles that you read that one of 19 their demands was that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman be released 20 from prison, correct? 21 MR. TIGAR: Object to the form of the question, your 22 Honor. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 MS. BAKER: May I have a minute, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9826 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, one of the things that you had read or heard 2 was that the Abu Sayyaf members were demanding the release of 3 Abdel Rahman from prison, correct? 4 A. Along with $20 million ransom, yes. I read that in Arabic 5 and English newspapers. Yes. 6 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, could we have an instruction 7 about these newspaper articles? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, I have previously instructed you 10 that the newspaper articles were not received for the truth of 11 any of the statements in the articles but rather for the effect 12 on the knowledge, intent or state of mind of someone, for 13 example, to the extent that they were read by Mr. Yousry for 14 the effect on Mr. Yousry's knowledge, intent or state of mind. 15 All right? 16 BY MS. BAKER:: 17 Q. And Mr. Yousry you understood, did you not, from what you 18 read or heard, that the demands that were made were what the 19 kidnappers were seeking in order to release their hostages, 20 correct? 21 A. There were several reports in the paper, they were 22 conflicting reports about what they want and what they said. 23 There were no actual word-for-word translations of something 24 they issued but they were conflicting reports in the paper. 25 Some papers said that $20 million was their demand. Others SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9827 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 said that independence for the small island of -- I forgot the 2 name of the island right now -- also others stated the fact 3 that they wanted to release all the Muslim prisoners including 4 Omar Abdel Rahman. 5 So, there were a lot of conflicting articles, yes. 6 Q. My question was, though, that the purpose of the demands, 7 as you understood it, was that whatever they were demanding, 8 that that's what they were seeking in order to release the 9 hostages that they were holding, correct? 10 A. One of the many demands in the conflicting newspapers was 11 such, yes. 12 Q. And from what you heard or read, you were aware that they 13 had threatened to behead the hostages if their demands were not 14 met, correct? 15 A. I actually saw that on CNN, yes. 16 Q. Now, turning your attention to the May 2000 prison visit, 17 Ms. Stewart was the lawyer at that visit, correct? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. 19 Q. And during that visit on May 19th of 2000, you read to 20 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman a letter from Muntasir Al-Zayat, 21 correct? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 Q. And also on May 19th of 2000 you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel 24 Rahman a letter from Nabil Elmasry, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9828 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And also you read to him a letter from Nasser Ahmed, 2 correct? 3 A. Yes. I believe so, yes. 4 Q. And you also read him a letter from Um Nagwa, correct? 5 A. Yes, I think so, yes. 6 Q. And Um Nagwa is Nasser Ahmed's wife, correct? 7 A. I believe so, yes. 8 Q. Now, you had translated these letters to Ms. Stewart in 9 advance, correct? 10 A. I believe Ms. Stewart either gave me those letters in the 11 plane or while we were waiting for a plane, yeah. I basically 12 translated that for Ms. Stewart and she approved them, yes. 13 Q. Now, also on May 19th of 2000 you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel 14 Rahman a letter from Ahmed Abdel Sattar, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And, as you testified on direct examination, you had 17 translated that letter to Ms. Stewart and she approved it, 18 correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar's letter referred to Abu Yasir, did it not? 21 A. It did, yes. 22 Q. And you knew at that time that Abu Yassir was Rifa'i Taha, 23 correct? 24 A. I did. 25 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that that was Rifa'i Taha? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9829 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 A. Ms. Stewart knew that this letter contains writings, 2 suggestions of political leaders of the Islamic movement in 3 Egypt regarding the situation in Egypt and the situation of 4 Omar Abdel Rahman himself. 5 So, that was the instruction, is this letter contains 6 this. Yes, it did. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was 8 Rifa'i Taha? 9 A. No, I did not. 10 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was a leader of the 11 Islamic Group? 12 A. Ms. Stewart knew that those names are leaders of the 13 movement in Egypt. There was no need for me to tell her 14 specifically. These were people who are residing in Europe, 15 political refugees in Europe and Iran and Denmark. Some of 16 them were living in Poland. 17 So, these were names that come up all the time in 18 articles in the newspapers. So, they were pretty much, as 19 Ms. Stewart told me, is this letter from Islamic leaders of 20 that movement concerning the Sheikh? And I said yes. 21 Q. Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yasir was opposed to the 22 Islamic Group's cease-fire? 23 A. There was no question in the letter regarding cease-fires. 24 It was the question specifically was escalate the rhetoric in 25 the media as long as the Egyptian government does not hold its SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9830 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 part of the agreement. 2 So, there was no reference to any cease-fire. 3 Q. Mr. Yousry, he wasn't asking you about the content of the 4 letter, I'm asking what you told Ms. Stewart. My question is, 5 did you tell her that Abu Yasir was opposed to the Islamic 6 Group's cease-fire? 7 A. I'm sure I did not tell her on that day, no. 8 Q. Now, the letter from Mr. Sattar that you read to Sheikh 9 Abdel Rahman on May 19th of 2000 is not contained in your 10 notebooks, correct? 11 A. It was on a separate piece of paper and I wrote down the 12 answer to that letter and to Muntasir Zayat also on separate 13 pieces of paper, yes. 14 Q. And as you just said, there came a time when Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman dictated an answer to Mr. Sattar's letter, correct? 16 A. I believe it was the next day, yes. 17 Q. That was May 20th of 2000, correct? 18 A. That is correct, yes. 19 Q. Now, after the visit you translated Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 20 response to Mr. Sattar to Ms. Stewart, correct? 21 A. That is correct. Not only the response to Mr. Sattar, the 22 response to other letters that he got. Yes. 23 Q. And Ms. Stewart approved that the letter that Sheikh Abdel 24 Rahman had dictated could be given to Mr. Sattar, correct? 25 A. I believe so. And I also know that usually we have a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9831 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 meeting a week or a few days after the visit with whatever 2 lawyer is present in charge to discuss how that stuff would be 3 handled. Mr. Sattar's role was to contact Egypt on behalf of 4 the lawyers here. 5 So I'm not sure if this took place or not but yes, 6 that was approved, yes. 7 Q. Just to go back to the question and make sure that we're 8 understanding each other; it was approved for you to give 9 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's response to Mr. Sattar, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And, as you testified a minute ago, that response that 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman had dictated, which you later gave to 13 Mr. Sattar, that was written by you on a separate piece of 14 paper, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. Meaning a piece of paper that was not physically attached 17 in one of your notebooks, correct? 18 A. The notebook was falling apart at the time and I had a 19 rubberband around it, so, yes. It was not in the notebook but 20 in a separate piece of paper with the letter that Ms. Stewart 21 gave me, yes. 22 Q. Now, on June 13th of 2000, as you later learned, 23 Ms. Stewart issued a statement on behalf of Sheikh Abdel 24 Rahman, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9832 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Now, you testified during your direct examination that you 2 did not meet with Ms. Stewart between May 20th of 2000 and June 3 13th of 2000. Is that your testimony? 4 A. Yes. I don't think we ever met, no. That was my 5 testimony, yes. 6 Q. But, it is true, is it not, that after you left the prison 7 on May 20th of 2000 and before June 13th of 2000, you had 8 translated to Ms. Stewart what Sheikh Abdel Rahman had said on 9 May 20th about the cease-fire and in response to Sattar's 10 letter, correct? 11 A. Yes, that is correct. Yes. 12 Q. And soon after you got back to New York, which also was 13 prior to June 13th of 2000, you had given Mr. Sattar Sheikh 14 Abdel Rahman's response to his letter, correct? 15 A. To his letter, to Nasser's letter, to Nabil's letter, to 16 Nasser's wife, to Mr. Al-Zayat, yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute to find an 20 exhibit? Actually, it might take me more than a minute, it 21 might take me two or three. So, if it would be a convenient 22 time for a recess I would request one. 23 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we will 24 take one. 25 Ladies and gentlemen, remember my continuing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9833 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 instructions. Please don't talk about the case at all. 2 Remember to keep an open mind, you have heard all the evidence, 3 I have instructed you on the law and you have returned to the 4 jury room to begin your deliberations. 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9834 4BT5SAT2 Yousry - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated. 6 There was a question about whether there should be a 7 limiting instruction for 707A? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I have now read 707A and 9 I withdraw any such concern. 10 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 11 Mr. Ruhnke? 12 MR. RUHNKE: I have no concern, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. And I don't have to tell the 14 jury anything that the exhibit has been admitted. All right. 15 (Recess) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9835 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. RUHNKE: Can Mr. Yousry resume the stand? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 5 Mr. Fletcher. 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you're 7 still under oath. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 9 THE COURT: Ms. Baker, you may proceed. 10 MS. BAKER: Thank you, your Honor. 11 BY MS. BAKER: 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, a couple of minutes before we took the break I 13 asked you the following question and you gave the following 14 answer: 15 "Q Did you tell Ms. Stewart that Abu Yassir was opposed to the 16 Islamic Group's ceasefire? 17 "A There was no question in the letter regarding the 18 ceasefire." 19 You were referring there to the letter to Mr. Sattar 20 that you read to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman on May 19 of 2000, 21 correct? 22 A. I believe so, yes. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 24 Government Exhibit 1707X in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9836 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, would I like to display the 2 portions starting on page 34. For the record, the page numbers 3 that I'm using are the page numbers of the dot PDF version of 4 the document which is the version that was displayed to the 5 jury earlier in the trial. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, I am going to read a portion of this to you and 8 I will ask you if I'm reading it correctly. This is when you 9 were reading to Sheikh Abdel Rahman from Mr. Sattar's letter on 10 May 19 of 2000. 11 Do you recognize this part of the transcript? 12 A. Yes, I do. 13 Q. Starting on line 3 of page 34, which is now showing on the 14 screen: Number ten: Abu Yassir called me the day before 15 yesterday. He still asks for your Honor's moral support to his 16 position, particularly at this time, after three years have 17 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 18 was issued. I had explained to you, sir, his viewpoint before. 19 Back then, you asked him to commit himself, and to give his 20 brothers a chance. Up till now, the man is committed, but I 21 don't think he will be able to remain quiet longer than that. 22 I sent to you, sir, the statement he issued on al-Azhar 23 University incidents, which exposed him to the criticism of 24 some brothers, particularly, because of its strong language. 25 Then you, brackets, hand motion to Stewart. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9837 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Did I read that correctly? 2 A. Yes, you did. 3 Q. Then there is some discussion between you and Stewart and 4 Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 5 A. That is correct. 6 Q. If we could continue down to the next page, page 35 of 7 government 1707X, starting at line 6. Do you see where it says 8 bracket, resumes reading? -- line 7, brackets, resumes reading? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. I would ask you to follow along as I continue. Which 11 exposed him to strong language, criticism of some brothers, 12 though he didn't say anything other than what is supposed to be 13 said. He therefore asks for your straightforward opinion, sir, 14 especially that you know that the man has his massive weight 15 among many brother and that if the regime worries about anyone, 16 it is Abu Yassir. I had told him and the other brothers about 17 your request, sir, concerning the evaluation of the initiative. 18 He had the same opinion. It is clear, though, that those who 19 push to go by the initiative are the brothers in Liman, even 20 though they are very few. Bracket, articulating as he corrects 21 himself, close brackets. No. The brothers in Liman and very 22 few others outside. Abu Yassir is of the opinion that the 23 group has to well utilize the initiative paper. The least to 24 do is to allow media escalation and to demonstrate disgust at 25 the way the situation ended up, especially that the most they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9838 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 allow now is some improvement in prisons, permission of visits, 2 and release of some prisoners. 3 Bear in mind, though, that those they released had 4 nothing to do with anything to start with, and that there are 5 so many others the government refuses to even discuss their 6 future, like those detained for more than ten years without any 7 charge, like Hasan Al-Gharbawi, phonetic; Dr. Ahmad Abdu Silim, 8 phonetic; or Dr. Mahmud Shu'aib. 9 Did I read that correctly? 10 A. Yes, you did. 11 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 12 May we have that back up again, please. If you would 13 continue scrolling down. 14 Q. Then starting at the bottom of page 35 Stewart interjects, 15 correct, and you and she speak with each other. Do you see 16 that there at the bottom of page 35? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. Please continue scrolling down. 19 Then you resume reading the letter on line 6 of page 20 36. Do you see that there? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. I am going to pick up there on line 6 of page 36 and please 23 follow along. Bracket, continues reading. Unintelligible, 24 like Hasan Al-Gharbawi, Dr. Ahmad Abdu Silim, Dr. Mahmud 25 Shu'aib, and many others. Even our brothers who served the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9839 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 sentences they had in Sadat's case, brackets, flips the page to 2 continue reading the bottom part of the letter, close brackets. 3 Then Abdel Rahman says: Um. Then you continue: More than 4 five years ago are still in jail. Since 1992, the brothers who 5 were pronounced innocent in any case are still under detention. 6 They were not released. Brother Abu Yassir and many other 7 brothers think that all these things need you to have a more 8 forceful portion. No objection to the formation of a team that 9 calls for cancellation of the initiative or makes threats or 10 escalates things. Please, your eminence, say your opinion 11 about this, dictate some points we can announce in a press 12 conference with Lynne. And if you don't want to announce them, 13 unintelligible, please let Lynne know that. 14 Did I read that correctly? 15 A. Yes, you did. 16 Q. That is what you said to Sheikh Omar Rahman on May 19 of 17 2000, correct? 18 A. Yes, that is correct. 19 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 20 Q. I was asking you a little while ago about the statement 21 that you had written referring to Mr. Sattar as the 22 spokesperson for al-Gama'a al-Islamyia in North America. In 23 your notes where you wrote that you did not refer to Mr. Sattar 24 by name, but rather you referred to him as Abu Omar, correct? 25 A. I believe I did, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9840 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. If you would look, please, at Government Exhibit 706A which 2 should still be there in front of you? 3 A. Which page? 4 Q. The second page, the top of the second page. The second 5 sentence on that page. Am I correct that you refer to him 6 there as Abu Omar? 7 A. Yes, I believe so. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, you have it in front of you. It refers -- 9 A. I'm trying to find the beginning and the end. 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you see the sentence that I'm talking about? 11 A. Sorry. I was on the wrong page. I'm sorry. Yes, I do. 12 Q. And yet elsewhere on the same page you identified 13 Mr. Sattar by his first and last name, correct? 14 A. Which page? I'm sorry. 15 Q. The second page of Government Exhibit 706A. Let me direct 16 your attention specifically to footnote 2 at the bottom of the 17 page. 18 A. Yes, I see that. 19 Q. There you referred to Mr. Sattar as Ahmed Sattar, correct? 20 A. Yes. It says person interview NYC, Ahmed Sattar. There is 21 no date, nothing. Yes. 22 Q. Just to be clear, that footnote, footnote 2, relates to a 23 different sentence of the main text, correct, not the sentence 24 that identifies Abu Omar as the spokesperson for al-Gama'a 25 al-Islamiya? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9841 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we request a limiting 2 instruction. 3 THE COURT: This is being offered with respect to 4 Mr. Yousry's understanding, state of mind. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I don't object to that 6 instruction. 7 THE COURT: It is offered with respect to Mr. Yousry's 8 understanding and state of mind. 9 Q. Am I correct that the footnote which identifies Mr. Sattar 10 by name is a footnote for a different sentence in the main 11 text, not the one that says that Abu Omar, is the spokesperson 12 for al-Gama'a al-Islamiya? 13 A. You're absolutely correct. There were notes and those 14 facts were wrong and I corrected that letter. 15 Q. To turn to a different subject, you visited Sheikh Omar 16 Abdel Rahman in prison again in July of 2001, correct? 17 A. With Ms. Stewart, yes. 18 Q. Now, before you went to that prison visit in July 2001, you 19 had heard or read stories in the media that reported that the 20 ship known as the U.S.S. Cole was bombed on October 12 of 2000, 21 correct? 22 A. That is correct, yes. It was read to the Sheikh, I 23 believe, from the New York Times, approved by Mr. Jabara and 24 some other articles were approved, yes. 25 Q. You read some of those articles to the Sheikh shortly after SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9842 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the incident occurred, correct? 2 A. Yes. They were in the newspapers, yes. 3 Q. You knew from the articles that you read from the Sheikh 4 that the bombing occurred in Aden Harbor in Yemen, correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. TIGAR: Object to the form. 7 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. Stricken. 8 Q. The articles that you read reported that the bombing had 9 occurred in Hayden Harbor? 10 A. In Yemen, yes. 11 Q. The articles also reported that the bombing was a result of 12 some terrorists who piloted a bomb-ladened boat over alongside 13 the U.S.S. Cole, correct? 14 A. The articles or maybe newscast programs, yes, but it was a 15 known fact at the time, yes. 16 Q. And the articles also reported that the bomb that they set 17 off ripped a large hole in the side of the U.S.S. Cole, 18 correct? 19 A. I believe the article stated that, according to Mr. Jabara, 20 who was reading that to the Sheikh, it says, as big as two 21 buses, something like that. I really can't recall the exact 22 article. But those articles were read to the Sheikh by 23 Mr. Jabara, and I believe Mr. Clark. 24 Q. And the articles also reported that as a result of the 25 bombing 17 crew members died, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9843 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. That is correct, yes. 2 Q. And the number of others were injured, correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes. 4 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 A. Thank you. 7 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you a copy of the exhibit in 8 evidence as MY-1403. That's a check that you received in 9 payment for your work as a translator on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 10 appeal, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. The check is for approximately $32,000, correct? 13 A. A little bit over 33,000, yes. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I retrieve that and 15 display it for the jury? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, you testified on direct examination that you 18 had billed for an amount larger than -- withdrawn. Let me back 19 up. The check actually is for an amount just over $33,000, 20 correct? 21 A. Little bit over 33, yes. 22 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you actually 23 billed for a larger amount than that, correct? 24 A. I believe the amount was 46 or 48,000. I can't recall. 25 Q. So you received a check that was approximately $15,000 less SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9844 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 than the amount you requested, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 Q. Now, this check is a check from the United States Treasury, 4 correct? 5 A. Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take the exhibit down. 7 Q. You were asked on direct examination about money that you 8 received from Ms. Stewart's trust account. Do you remember 9 being asked those questions? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And you testified -- and I'm quoting an answer on 12 transcript, page 9181 -- you testified: "I was paid $35,000 to 13 cover the difference in my original voucher that I didn't get 14 from the government, and Mr. Clark and Ms. Stewart were not 15 able to recover this money from me. On top of that, I had I 16 think it was $11,000 for the rest of my services. So a total 17 of 35, if I'm not mistaken. 18 Do you remember giving that answer? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. In that answer did you mean that the $35,000 that you 21 received from Ms. Stewart's trust account included what you 22 described as $11,000 for the rest of your services? 23 A. There were 11,000 plus 15,000, and there was some other 24 stuff that I was working on, so it was kind of an advanced 25 payment for $3,000, if I'm not mistaken. I can't recall the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9845 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 payout, but that sounds about right. 2 Q. I want to try to go through these numbers in some detail, 3 so I need to follow up on that. I'm focusing right now just on 4 the payment of $35,000 that you received. You received $35,000 5 in one lump sum on one date, correct? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. Out of that $35,000, was it your testimony or are you 8 claiming that $11,000 was to pay you for some services that you 9 had provided? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Were those services different from your work translating 12 for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's appeal? 13 A. No, they were not. They were after the appeal was over, 14 there was a certain period of time that the government did not 15 take any further billing after that. Mr. Clark wasn't here 16 that often. So a couple of my vouchers were not signed on 17 time. No. One voucher, actually, because of the mistake in 18 the billing dates or whatever happened, it was cut. And I 19 think another voucher was not even billed because the date was 20 over. So there was some differences in the amount. That was 21 the first thing. 22 The second thing is, I did not stop providing services 23 after the appeal was over. I continued working twice a week, 24 phone calls, and I continued translating materials that the 25 lawyers gave me. So it included all that. That's my best SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9846 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 recollection of this. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, at one point in your direct you testified that 3 your voucher in connection with the work that you did on the 4 appeal was for $48,000. Do you believe that that number is 5 accurate? 6 A. I believe so. I think so, yes. 7 Q. Out of that $48,000, you received, as we just saw in the 8 check, MY-1403, you received approximately $33,000 through the 9 Federal Government, correct? 10 A. Yes, absolutely, yes. 11 Q. So that leaves a difference of approximately $15,000, 12 correct? 13 A. Absolutely, yes. 14 Q. Of the $35,000 that you received on one occasion from 15 Ms. Stewart's trust account, was any of that to make up for 16 that $15,000 difference? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was the whole 15,000 part of that 35,000? 19 A. Yes, it was supposed to be included, yes. 20 Q. So if we take 15,000 off of the top of the 35,000, that 21 leaves another 20,000, correct? 22 A. About, yes. 23 Q. Was that $20,000 for other translation services that you 24 were providing or interpretation services that you were 25 providing? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9847 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Yes. There was another voucher that was not billed, I 2 believe. After they argued the appeal, the judges asked the 3 government to submit another -- I think it was .5 or .4, if I'm 4 not mistaken. Another 100 or 200 pages that the government 5 submitted. And Mr. Clark was asked also to submit other stuff, 6 so I did that. And that services were not included in the 7 original billing. So there was another voucher, but Mr. Clark 8 was never around. He was traveling a lot. So one voucher was 9 not submitted at all. And I think the total of that was 10 11,000. 11 Q. I'm sorry. Was how much? 12 A. I think 11,000. 13 Q. I want to make sure I'm following your testimony. On top 14 of 48,000 in one or more vouchers, you're now saying that there 15 was another 11,000 in another voucher? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, the $35,000 that you received from Ms. Stewart's trust 18 account, you received that in November 1999, correct? 19 A. I believe so, yes. 20 Q. And then you received another $10,000 from Ms. Stewart's 21 trust account in April of 2000, correct? 22 A. Yes, I did. I think this was a reimbursement for the money 23 that I gave Mr. Sattar, yes. 24 Q. And you had testified on direct examination that you had 25 given Mr. Sattar $10,000 for him to invest in his baby formula SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9848 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 business. Was that your testimony? 2 A. It is the money that he requested, that I was told that it 3 was cleared by the lawyers, and I had the money. I gave it to 4 him and I was reimbursed, yes. 5 Q. Is it your testimony that that's what the $10,000 was that 6 you received from Ms. Stewart's trust account in April of 2000? 7 A. I think Ms. Stewart gave me two checks, one for 10, and I 8 think a later one for 10 or 9. I can't really recall. So, 9 yes. 10 Q. There was a third check from her trust account for $9,000 11 in June of 2000, correct? 12 A. Yes. That's the one I'm referring to, yes. 13 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that starting -- withdrawn. 14 Do you remember being asked the following question and 15 giving the following answer on your direct examination? And 16 this is at transcript, page 9180: 17 "Q In terms of your duties and working with the lawyers and 18 the representation of Sheikh Rahman, did the lawyers 19 occasionally ask you to do other things than simply be a 20 translator? 21 "A Yes. I coordinated between the lawyers. I coordinated 22 between the lawyers and the client things of this nature, yes." 23 You remember giving that testimony? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. Isn't it a fact that starting in about December of 2000 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9849 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 your duties also included sending money to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 2 for his commissary account in prison? 3 A. I actually did not send money. Mr. Jabara was the person 4 who always write the money order, gives it to me and I mail it. 5 On a couple of occasions, Mr. Sattar and Mr. Nabil Elmasry, 6 they gave money to the lawyers to give me money orders, and I 7 mail that, yes. That's what I did, yes. 8 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning back to the Islamic Group's ceasefire, 9 you believed, did you not, that the real reason behind the 10 ceasefire was that the Islamic Group did not currently have the 11 means to attack and so the ceasefire gave them time to regroup? 12 A. Absolutely. That was my belief. And now, actually, I read 13 articles from the newspaper. They actually issue three books 14 in the period between 2000 and now. And all three books, 15 actually, they started a new theology for the movement. And 16 they preach now nonviolent. So I might be wrong on that, even 17 though I believed it then and I still have some doubts now. 18 But they have issued three new books, and those books all 19 direct the "members" and sympathizers to give up arms and fight 20 peacefully for change in Egypt. 21 Q. Mr. Yousry, you testified on direct examination that you 22 were paid for your translation work not only on Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman's appeal, but also on his trial, correct? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And for the appeal you received a check for approximately SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9850 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 $33,000 that we just looked at a minute ago, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 Q. And then some additional amounts through Ms. Stewart, 4 correct? 5 A. Later on, yes. 6 Q. Now, that check that we looked at a minute ago, Exhibit 7 MY-1403, that's a Federal Government check, correct? 8 A. Yes, it is. 9 Q. And when you were paid for your translation work on Sheikh 10 Abdel Rahman's trial, that payment also came through the 11 Federal Government, correct? 12 A. Not to me directly, no. It came through the translation 13 agency that was in charge of providing the services for the 13 14 or 14 defendant. And then I get paid by that agency, yes. 15 Q. Just to make sure we are clear, the payment came through 16 the Federal Government to Hess Translation, correct? 17 A. Hess Translation or the agency in charge at that time, yes. 18 Q. You were paid for your time through Hess Translation? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, the reason why the payments were coming from the 21 Federal Government was because Sheikh Abdel Rahman couldn't 22 afford to pay for all of the translation services himself, or 23 the defendants couldn't afford to pay for the translation 24 services themselves, correct? 25 A. I believe so, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9851 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And so the court approved that the translation services 2 would be paid for with public funds, correct? 3 A. I think so, yes. 4 Q. But when you did your work on the appeal and when you 5 worked through Hess Translation on the trial, you were working 6 for the defense lawyers, not for the government, correct? 7 A. No, I was not working for the government at that time, no. 8 Q. In fact, at Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial the government 9 presented its own translations of exhibits that had been 10 prepared by FBI translators, correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 Q. And so when you were working on the trial and on the 13 appeal, you were taking directions directly or indirectly 14 through Hess Translation from the defense lawyers, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. You testified on direct examination that you began working 17 as an interpreter for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's meetings with his 18 attorneys in about 1995, correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. About March of 1995? 21 A. I believe so, yes. 22 Q. And the way that came about was that Ms. Stewart contacted 23 Hess Translations, correct? 24 A. I don't know if Ms. Stewart herself or one of her office 25 staff, but that's how it came about, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9852 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. Mr. Yousry, your taxes were audited in 1998, correct? 2 A. My taxes were audited several times. 3 Q. Including in 1998? 4 A. '98, '99, 2001. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. I've handed you a document marked for identification as 8 Government Exhibit 709A. Do you recognize that document as a 9 letter that you wrote to an auditor in February 1998? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 12 709A. 13 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 14 MR. TIGAR: Is there a limiting instruction on this, 15 your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Offered only against Mr. Yousry? 17 MS. BAKER: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 709A received in 19 evidence. 20 (Government's Exhibit 709A received in evidence) 21 THE COURT: This exhibit is received and may be 22 considered only against Mr. Yousry. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display it to the jury? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would focus in on the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9853 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 top portion first. 2 Q. Mr. Yousry, that's dated February 21 of 1998, correct? 3 A. I believe so, yes, that's right. 4 Q. And that's after you had worked on Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 5 trial and also done a significant amount of work on his appeal, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes. The appeal, I believe, was billed late, but that's 8 yes, correct. 9 Q. The letter is addressed to a person who is identified in it 10 as an associate tax auditor, correct? 11 A. She still calls for different other questions, yes. 12 Q. And she was involved in auditing your taxes at that time, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes, that is correct. 15 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would focus in on the 16 second paragraph, please. 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, you wrote in the second paragraph of this 18 letter: "I was"-- let me start at the beginning of the 19 sentence, the second sentence of the second paragraph: "During 20 the famous trial of the World Trade Center bombing, and its 21 subsequent conspiracy trial, I was selected by the Justice 22 Department to serve as legal interpreter." 23 Is that what you wrote there? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 Q. And in the last sentence of that paragraph you were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9854 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 referring to a business name that you were using, Yousry 2 Cultural Research, correct? 3 A. I still do use that, yes. 4 Q. You wrote in that sentence: "As a result, Yousry Cultural 5 Research, which was founded because of the Justice Department 6 appointment, has been inactive for more than three years." 7 Is that what you wrote? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MS. BAKER: That exhibit can be taken down. Thank 12 you. 13 A. Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you another document marked for 15 identification as Government Exhibit 712A. Do you recognize 16 Government Exhibit 712A as a résumé or CV that you prepared 17 about yourself? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. And it was on the hard drive of the computer that FBI 20 seized from your home, correct? 21 A. Yes. There were also several other copies that the FBI 22 seized, yes. 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I offer Government Exhibit 24 712A. 25 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9855 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 712A received in 2 evidence. 3 (Government's Exhibit 712A received in evidence) 4 MR. TIGAR: Is there an instruction on this, your 5 Honor? 6 MS. BAKER: It is offered only as to Mr. Yousry. 7 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 712A received in 8 evidence solely against with respect to Mr. Yousry. 9 MS. BAKER: May I approach the witness again? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 A. Thank you. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, I've handed you another document marked for 13 identification as Government Exhibit 713A. Do you recognize 14 Government Exhibit 713A as a résumé that you prepared for 15 yourself? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would offer Government 18 Exhibit 713A only as to Mr. Yousry. 19 MR. RUHNKE: No objection. 20 THE COURT: Government Exhibit 713A received in 21 evidence solely with respect to Mr. Yousry. 22 (Government's Exhibit 713A received in evidence) 23 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 24 Government Exhibit 712A now in evidence? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9856 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display the 2 portion on top of the first page under the heading education. 3 Your Honor, I would also like to display at the same 4 time, if I may, a portion of Government Exhibit 713A now in 5 evidence. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, did you display the 8 corresponding first page of Government Exhibit 713A? 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, in Government Exhibit 712A which is displayed 10 at top of the screen you indicate that your education 11 includes -- I'm focusing your attention on the third item. It 12 says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 to 1979. Graduate 13 school of Islamic and social studies. Obtained advanced degree 14 in early Muslim thoughts. 15 Do you see that? 16 A. Yes, I do. 17 Q. Directing your attention to Government Exhibit 713A, which 18 is displayed at the lower portion of the screen, in that résumé 19 you wrote Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 to '79. 20 Graduate school of arts and science. Obtained master degree in 21 counseling. 22 In fact, the only advanced work that you had done 23 beyond your bachelor's degree in Cairo was a 12-credit 24 certificate in economics, correct? 25 A. Absolutely, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9857 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And your undergraduate degree from Cairo was in military 2 science or military history, correct? 3 A. Absolutely, yes. 4 Q. Directing your attention back to Government Exhibit 713A, 5 which is displayed at the bottom of the screen, it describes 6 your bachelor's degree by saying, Cairo University, Cairo, 7 Egypt, 1974 to 78, school of arts and science, obtained 8 bachelor degree in history with minor in counseling, correct? 9 A. As I said before, there was a minor in history, yes. 10 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you leave Government 11 Exhibit 712A on the screen and also please display from page 3 12 of Government Exhibit 713A. 13 Q. Mr. Yousry, if you would look at the third page of Exhibit 14 713A. That's another resume of yours, correct? 15 A. Yes, it is. 16 Q. And displaying the corresponding portion of that page, 17 which appears under the heading education, in this résumé with 18 respect to your bachelor's degree, the bottom entry of the four 19 entries there says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1974 to 20 '78. School of arts and science, obtained bachelor degree in 21 history with minor in religion, correct? 22 A. That is correct, yes. 23 Q. Above that it says: Cairo University, Cairo, Egypt, 1978 24 to '79, graduate school of arts and science. Obtained advanced 25 certificate in religious studies, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9858 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take those exhibits 3 down. 4 Q. Mr. Yousry, as you testified on direct examination, there 5 came a time in late 2001 when you were interviewed by the 6 Federal Bureau of Investigation, correct? 7 A. That is correct, yes. 8 Q. And you were first interviewed by the FBI on September 13 9 of 2001, correct? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. On that date an agent and a detective who was assigned to 12 the FBI came to see you at your home, correct? 13 A. That is correct, yes. 14 Q. They identified themselves as being with the FBI, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. They asked to speak with you? 17 A. They did. 18 Q. And you agreed to speak with them, correct? 19 A. That is correct, yes. 20 Q. And you understood in the questions that they posed to you 21 that they were expecting you to provide truthful answers, 22 correct? 23 A. Everything that I know, everything that I remember, to the 24 best of my ability, yes. 25 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you did tell SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9859 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the FBI the truth when they interviewed you, correct? 2 A. I told them everything according to my ability, yes. 3 Q. And you testified on direct examination that you told them 4 the truth, right? 5 A. Yes, I did. 6 Q. Now, during your interview with the FBI on September 13 of 7 2001, you told the FBI that the last visit you had paid to 8 Sheikh Abdel Rahman was with Lynne Stewart, correct? 9 A. Correct. 10 Q. And you estimated on September 13 of 2001 that the visit 11 had occurred about three months before the date on which you 12 were being interviewed, correct? 13 A. Correct. 14 Q. And what you were referring to there was the July 2001 15 prison visit, correct? 16 A. That is what I was referring to, yes. 17 Q. Now, in the interview on September 13, 2001, you told the 18 FBI that the only messages for Sheikh Abdel Rahman during that 19 prison visit were letters from his family regarding a dispute 20 they were having over property that he owned, correct? 21 A. There was a letter about the house that they wanted to 22 sell, yes, correct. 23 Q. And when you spoke to the FBI on September 13 of 2001, you 24 told the FBI that the only message for the Sheikh during that 25 visit was a letter from his family regarding this dispute over SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9860 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 the property, correct? 2 A. That is correct, yes. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 4 Government Exhibit 1716X in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MS. BAKER: Again, I am going to be referring to the 7 page numbers of the dot PDF version of this document. 8 Ms. Griffith, if you would first display the top 9 portion of page 1 of Government Exhibit 1716X. 10 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as a transcript of a 11 portion of your visit to Sheikh Abdel Rahman on July 13 of 12 2001? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 Q. And that was a visit paid by you and Lynne Stewart, 15 correct? 16 A. Yes. 17 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would please show 18 page 61 of Government Exhibit 1716X. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, I'll direct your attention to the portion 20 beginning on line 19. At that point in the visit you began to 21 read a letter to Sheikh Abdel Rahman from Ahmed Abdel Sattar, 22 is that correct? 23 A. That is correct, yes. 24 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would scroll down, 25 please, to page 62. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9861 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. I'd like to focus your attention, Mr. Yousry, on line 13. 2 Do you see there? It says the number one. 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. I would like you to follow along. I'm going to ask you if 5 I'm reading correctly from the exhibit. 6 This is what you were reading to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 7 from Ahmed Abdel Sattar's letter, correct? 8 A. That is correct, yes. 9 Q. 1, Mohammed, your son, called me the day before yesterday. 10 He says hello to you, he missed you, he prays God to confirm 11 you. 12 Have I read it correctly so far? 13 A. Yes, you are. 14 Q. I am going to skip down a few lines where you resume 15 reading on line 20: Honorable Sheikh, please be informed that 16 we are the weak to the greatest extent and that we get the 17 power and might from God, his majesty and then, then from your 18 holding onto truth. Honorable Sheikh, please be informed that 19 anything you say, especially if we sense some weakness in it, 20 affects us all and weakens us, particularly among our brothers 21 with whom we stay. Maybe you know how proud and dignified we 22 felt when you announced your withdrawal of support to the 23 initiative. You are the weak and sick prisoner. You neither 24 withhold nor suppress a word of truth, even when you behind 25 bars. For this reason, we were greatly astonished when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9862 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Muntasir wrote in the newspapers that you urge to go forth with 2 the initiative. These words had a severe influence on us. 3 Please explain this to us, your eminence. 4 If any of the brothers, like Muntasir, needs to be 5 sold some encouraging words to strengthen him, unintelligible, 6 not to have it published in newspapers. Words like these 7 weaken us, especially because you, your eminence, do not belong 8 to a certain group. All the people look up to you and at what 9 you issue and convey it to each other. He closed the brackets. 10 That was you talking about what was in Mr. Sattar's 11 letter, correct, that last sentence when you say, he closed the 12 brackets? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So the part that you were reading from Sattar's letter 15 ended with the phrase, convey it to each other, correct? 16 A. No. I think that's the part that Sattar was quoting that 17 the son said. 18 Q. I didn't mean to interrupt your answer. To be more clear, 19 the part that you were reading from, the item No. 1 in 20 Mr. Sattar's letter, ends with the words convey it to each 21 other, correct? 22 A. I believe that's where the quote end, yes. 23 Q. That was Mr. Sattar repeating what he had heard from Sheikh 24 Omar Abdel Rahman's son Mohammed, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9863 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 MS. BAKER: Thank you. You can take that down. 2 Q. Turning back to your interview with the FBI on September 3 13, 2001, the FBI asked you during that interview if you were 4 aware of any messages from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's son, 5 Mohammed and Ahmed, that were ever passed to Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman or presented to the attorneys for review. 7 Do you remember being asked that question? 8 A. I believe so, yes. 9 Q. At first when you answered that question on September 13, 10 2001, you stated that you were not aware of any messages from 11 Mohammed or Ahmed ever being passed to the Sheikh or being 12 presented to the attorneys for review. 13 Do you remember telling the FBI that? 14 A. I do, yes. Because -- 15 Q. I'm sorry? 16 A. That's all right. Go ahead. 17 Q. Then you recalled, as you told the FBI on September 13 of 18 2001, that there was one message from one of the two sons, but 19 you could not recall which one, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. And you told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that that one 22 message from one of the sons asked for Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 23 opinion on whether the son should get married, correct? 24 A. Yes. The message you're referring to was not approved by 25 the lawyer. The Sheikh didn't give any answer to. I think I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9864 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 was saying the truth as I remember it at the time, yes. 2 Q. During the interview with the FBI on September 13, 2001, 3 you were asked if you had ever relayed a message to or from 4 Taha or Mustafa Hamzah and Sheikh Abdel Rahman. Do you 5 remember being asked that question? 6 A. I do. 7 Q. And you answered that question no, correct? 8 A. Because everything comes through Muntasir Zayyat, yes. 9 Q. You were asked if you had ever relayed a message to or from 10 Taha, correct? 11 A. That is correct. 12 Q. And you answered no? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And yet, as we looked at earlier, on May 19 of 2000, you 15 read Ahmed Abdel Sattar's letter to Sheikh Abdel Rahman which 16 included a message from Taha, correct? 17 A. On a later date also I told them everything about Taha, 18 yes. 19 Q. Mr. Yousry, on September 13 of 2001, you were asked if you 20 had ever relayed a message from Taha and you said no, correct? 21 A. That is correct. 22 Q. Also, on September 13 of 2001 you told the FBI that in the 23 past Abdeen Jabara and Ramsey Clark had engaged in discussions 24 with Sheikh Abdel Rahman regarding the political situation in 25 Egypt and the Middle East, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9865 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Correct. 2 Q. And you told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that you were 3 certain that while you were present nothing was passed to or 4 from Sheikh Abdel Rahman and leaders of al-Gama'a al-Islamiya? 5 A. That is correct, yes. 6 Q. You also the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that the only 7 letters you had ever read to Sheikh Abdel Rahman were letters 8 from his family discussing family matters or greetings from 9 individuals like Mr. Sattar or Nabil Elmasry, correct? 10 A. That is correct. 11 Q. And you told the FBI on that same date that there had been 12 a lot of messages from those individuals, but that they were 13 only general greetings inquiring about the Sheikh's health and 14 matters of a personal nature, correct? 15 A. On that particular day, yes, that is correct. 16 Q. Now, on September 13 of 2001, you did have some discussion 17 with the FBI about the statement that was issued on behalf of 18 Abdel Rahman in June of 2000 regarding the Islamic Group's 19 ceasefire, correct? 20 A. I believe so, yes. 21 Q. You told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that there had 22 been a problem because Lynne Stewart had issued a statement 23 from the Sheikh stating that he withdrew his support for the 24 ceasefire, correct? 25 A. That is correct, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9866 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. And you told the FBI that that statement had come about 2 when Ms. Stewart asked Sheikh Abdel Rahman his opinion 3 regarding the ceasefire, correct? 4 A. She approved the letter, yes, correct. 5 Q. What you said to the FBI was that Ms. Stewart had asked the 6 Sheikh his opinion regarding the ceasefire? 7 A. That is correct. 8 Q. When you were interviewed by the FBI on September 13, 2001, 9 you were also asked if the attack on the U.S.S. Cole had ever 10 been a topic of discussion with Sheikh Abdel Rahman. 11 Do you remember being asked that question? 12 A. That is correct, yes. 13 Q. And in response to that question you stated that when the 14 attack on the Cole occurred, you read a newspaper account of it 15 to Sheikh Abdel Rahman and the newspaper account had been 16 selected by one of the attorneys, correct? 17 A. That is correct, yes. 18 Q. You also told the FBI on September 13, 2001 that there had 19 been no discussion of the Cole with Sheikh Abdel Rahman since 20 the time when you read him the news report, correct? 21 A. That is what I had remembered at that time, yes, correct. 22 Q. You stated in the interview on September 13 of 2001 that 23 you were certain that nothing regarding the Cole had been 24 mentioned during the last visit that you had paid to Sheikh 25 Abdel Rahman, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9867 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. Absolutely, yes, yes. 2 Q. When you were referring to the last visit, you were 3 referring to the visit in July of 2001? 4 A. Correct. 5 Q. You told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that you were sure 6 that you would remember something if the topic of the Cole had 7 been discussed with Sheikh Abdel Rahman during the visit, 8 correct? 9 A. That's what I said that particular day, yes. 10 Q. Now, you were interviewed by the FBI for a second time on 11 the next day? 12 A. Maybe, yes. 13 Q. Shortly thereafter? The second interview happened soon 14 after the first one? 15 A. I think it was three days or four days later. 16 Q. Is there anything that would refresh your recollection as 17 to the date of your second interview? 18 A. No. I know it happened just few days after the first one. 19 I don't know how many days. Maybe the 16th or 15th. I am not 20 sure. 21 Q. Now, in your second interview with the FBI, you still 22 understood that the FBI was expecting you to provide truthful 23 answers to their questions, correct? 24 A. To the best of my ability at that time, yes. 25 Q. In the second interview you told the FBI that several SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9868 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 months earlier you had been at a party and you had overheard 2 Ahmed Abdel Sattar tell Lynne Stewart that he had received a 3 call about a week or two before the night of the party. 4 Do you remember telling that to the FBI? 5 A. I believe I said that to them in the context of the U.S.S. 6 Cole, yes. 7 Q. And you told the FBI in your second interview that 8 Mr. Sattar had told Ms. Stewart on this prior occasion that 9 someone told Mr. Sattar that the attack on the U.S.S. Cole had 10 been done for Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 11 A. That is correct. And that's the same thing we told the 12 Sheikh on July 21 of 2002, yes. 13 Q. I'm focusing on your second interview with the FBI and what 14 you told them. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what you told them was that someone had told Mr. Sattar 17 that the attack on the Cole had been done for Sheikh Abdel 18 Rahman, correct? 19 A. That is correct. He was looking for Mr. Jabara, couldn't 20 find Mr. Jabara. I believe he found Ms. Stewart. He was 21 shaking, so nervous, and that's what I remember, yes. 22 MS. BAKER: I move to strike the later portion of the 23 answer as nonresponsive. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 Q. Turning back to what you told the FBI on September 14, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9869 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 2001, in your second interview with the FBI you again told the 2 FBI that the only time you had ever discussed the U.S.S. Cole 3 with the Sheikh was when you read him an article about the 4 attack during one of the legal calls shortly after the attack 5 occurred, is that correct? 6 A. That is correct, yes. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 8 Government Exhibit 1716X in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, would you please display 11 starting at page 74 of the PDF version. 12 Q. Mr. Yousry, this is a transcript of a portion of the visit 13 that you and Ms. Stewart paid to Sheikh Omar Rahman on July 13, 14 2001, is that correct? 15 A. That is correct. 16 Q. I'd like to direct your attention to the page 74 beginning 17 at line 9. You are speaking at that point and please follow 18 along. You said: We never told him about the, open brackets, 19 in lower voice, close bracket, Cole. Ms. Stewart asked: What? 20 And then you said: The Cole, huh, exploded, you show the ship, 21 the destroyer, Cole. We never told him about the call that 22 Ahmed got. You want to tell him while we are here? And 23 Ms. Stewart replied: Heh, huh, I guess so. I am not sure. 24 You said: You know what I am talking about? Ms. Stewart said: 25 No. Then you said: Remember when we went for the book signing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9870 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 and Ahmed told me that somebody called him and they said they 2 destroyed the ship because of the Cole, unintelligible. 3 Ms. Stewart said: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You said, we never 4 told him. And Ms. Stewart said on line 22: Yeah. We probably 5 ought to tell him. 6 Did I read that correctly? 7 A. Yes, you did. 8 Q. What Ms. Stewart went on to say was that you should talk 9 about something else first and then you would tell him about 10 the Cole later, is that correct? 11 A. That is correct, yes. 12 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I now display a portion of 13 Government Exhibit 1717X in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you recognize this as the transcript of the 16 next portion of the visit on July 13 of 2001? 17 A. Yes. 18 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if you would display, 19 please, page 11. 20 Q. Directing your attention starting at line 7 on that page, 21 please let me know if I read the following portion correctly. 22 You said: She says, sir, we have ten minutes to 3:00. And 23 then you say in English: You want to tell him about the Cole? 24 And Ms. Stewart says: Mm. Then you say: The Cole. And 25 Ms. Stewart says: Yes, yes, just tell him this. You say in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9871 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Arabic: There is a boat that was bombed in Yemen, sir. And 2 Abdel Rahman says: Mmm. And then you say: You remember that 3 boat? And Abdel Rahman says: Yeah. You say: Some people 4 spoke to Ahmed Abdel Sattar on the phone and said that they did 5 this for you, bracket, pointing at Abdel Rahman, close bracket, 6 meaning for you, sir. They asked Ahmed Abdel Sattar to do 7 negotiations with the American government. Ms. Stewart: Mmm, 8 hmm, mm, hmm. Then you, bracket, looks at Stewart. 9 Ms. Stewart: I'm just doing covering noises. You, brackets, 10 laughing. And tell them: If the American government does not 11 set you free, they will do other things. Ms. Stewart: 12 Bracket, drops the pen and with an empty bottle, she taps three 13 times followed by a double tap over the table. Abdel Rahman 14 says: Tell Ahmed not to interfere lest unintelligible. 15 Ms. Stewart says: Covering noises. You, bracket, laughs. 16 Ms. Stewart: Continue talking. Yousry: You see? I'll tell 17 her intelligible. Abdel Rahman said: Tell him it is okay to 18 go through a lawyer but unintelligible. 19 Did I read that correctly? 20 A. Yes you did. 21 Q. That was discussion that you had with Sheikh Abdel Rahman 22 and Ms. Stewart that's part of it? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. That's a portion of the discussion that you had with Sheikh 25 Abdel Rahman and Ms. Stewart on July 13 of 2001, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9872 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. A portion, correct. 2 MR. RUHNKE: I don't know if Ms. Baker is intending to 3 read the rest of that particular segment, but I will ask that 4 the rest be read at this time. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask permission not to. 7 THE COURT: All right. Take it up on redirect. 8 MS. BAKER: You can take the exhibit down, please. 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, turning back to your interview with the 10 February on September 13, 2001, now I'm going back to your 11 first interview. You told the FBI on that date that in your 12 view, Ahmed Abdel Sattar was sympathetic to al-Gama'a 13 al-Islamiya, correct? 14 A. Yes, correct. 15 Q. You also told the FBI on that date that Mr. Sattar was 16 involved in coordinating communications for some of the group's 17 members, correct? 18 A. With the lawyers, yes. 19 Q. Well, the way you phrased it in speaking to the FBI, you 20 said that he was involved in coordinating communications for 21 some of the group's members, correct? 22 A. That's -- yes. 23 Q. You also told the FBI on September 13 of 2001 that you did 24 not know specifically which al-Gama'a al-Islamyia members 25 Sattar was in contact with, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9873 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 A. No, I did not. 2 Q. Your testimony is, you did not say that to the FBI on 3 September 13, 2001? 4 A. No. I did. I did not know. Yes, I did. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I display a portion of 6 Government Exhibit 1707X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. And could you identify the date, 8 please, when you do that? 9 MS. BAKER: Government Exhibit 1707X is a portion of 10 the visit to Sheikh Abdel Rahman on May 19 of 2000. 11 Q. Is that correct, Mr. Yousry? 12 A. That is what it says, yes. 13 Q. Do you recognize that as a transcript of the portion of the 14 visit on May 19 of 2000? 15 A. I'm sorry? 16 Q. Do you recognize Government Exhibit 1707X as a portion -- 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. As a portion of the transcript of the visit on May 19 of 19 2000? 20 A. Yes, I do. 21 Q. Before I direct your attention specifically to a portion of 22 that document, let me ask you, you were interviewed by the FBI 23 again on September 17 of 2001, correct? 24 A. That sounds right, yes. 25 Q. You understood in that interview that the FBI was again SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9874 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 expecting you to provide truthful information, correct? 2 A. To the best of my ability, yes. 3 Q. Now, in the interview on September 17 of 2001, you told the 4 agents that you did not believe that Mr. Sattar was directly 5 associated with any of the leaders of al-Gama'a al-Islamiya, 6 correct? 7 A. That is still my belief, yes. 8 Q. Directing your attention to the exhibit on the screen, 9 Government Exhibit 1707X -- again, I'm referring to the page 10 numbers in the PDF version -- if we could show, first, page 27 11 of the exhibit. 12 Now, Mr. Yousry, page 27, starting at line 11, that's 13 where you take out the letter from Mr. Sattar in preparation 14 for starting to read it to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, correct? 15 A. That is correct, yes. 16 Q. And then on the pages that follow page 27 for quite a 17 number of pages, you read the letter sort of one portion at a 18 time, correct? 19 A. Yes, that's right. 20 MS. BAKER: Ms. Griffith, if we could show page 33 of 21 Government Exhibit 1707X. 22 Q. I'd like to focus your attention to the portion on page 33 23 that begins at line 30. That's when your partway through 24 reading Mr. Sattar's letter, correct? 25 A. Yes, that is correct. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9875 4BTMSAT3 Yousry - cross 1 Q. I am going to begin reading at that line and I would ask 2 you to follow along. Bracket, reading, my communications 3 increased during the past year. I have semiconstant contact 4 with Abu Yassir, Abu Hazim, Abu Musab, Abdul Harith, Abu Ithar, 5 Abu Khalid, Abu Mustafa, and many other brothers, thank God. 6 If there is anything, please notify. 7 No. 10: Abu Yassir called me the day before 8 yesterday. He still asks for your Honor's moral support to his 9 position, particularly at this time, after three years have 10 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 11 was issued. I am going to stop reading at that point because 12 we read this portion earlier. Did I read that part correctly? 13 A. You absolutely did, yes. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I think I'm just about 15 finished. If I could have a break of five minutes to review my 16 notes and organize, I think I am going to be finished before 17 lunch. 18 THE COURT: We will take a five-minute break, ladies 19 and gentlemen. 20 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk 21 about the case at all. Always remember to keep an open mind 22 until you have heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you 23 on the law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your 24 deliberations. 25 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9876 4BTMSAT3 1 jury room. 2 (Jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry can step down. Please be 4 seated, all. 5 I was trying to check on the Live Note. I wasn't sure 6 if I misheard in one of the questions what I thought was a 7 reference to a discussion in October 2000 and I thought that 8 1716 was introduced as October 2001. So the parties can just 9 check the Live Note if I misheard or if the transcript is 10 somehow incorrect. I pass that on to you. 11 See you shortly. 12 (Recess) 13 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. For your 14 information, I'm advised that the jurors lunches are here. 15 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I don't know if Ms. Baker has 16 concluded her examination or not. I had asked the government 17 to produce a particular notebook. They will endeavor to get it 18 over lunch. My request is that we resume whatever needs to be 19 resumed after lunch, if we can take our lunch break now. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would join in that request 21 because I was still discussing with my colleagues when your 22 Honor came back in. So I would join in the request that we 23 have lunch now. And then I would have just a very few minutes 24 more cross, if any, after lunch. And then we could go to 25 Mr. Ruhnke's redirect. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9877 4BTMSAT3 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we certainly consent to 2 Mr. Fletcher informing the jury -- 3 THE COURT: I think they are in transit. 4 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, we will request also to use the 5 lunch break to determine whether or not we ask to go for cross 6 before Mr. Ruhnke's redirect. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Fletcher advises 10 me that your lunches are here. Actually, if I had known that 11 sufficiently far in advance I could have had Mr. Fletcher just 12 tell you that you didn't have to come back at this point and we 13 could resume after lunch. But that's what we will do. Since 14 your lunches are here, we will break. It is about 12:30. We 15 will break until 1:45. And it is very important that you 16 follow all of my instructions. Please don't talk about this 17 case at all. Please always remember to keep an open mind until 18 you have heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on 19 the law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your 20 deliberations. Have a good lunch and I look forward to seeing 21 you this afternoon. 22 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 23 jury room. 24 (Jury not present) 25 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9878 4BTMSAT3 1 The other defendant should advise me whether they wish 2 to be called on after Ms. Baker finishes and before I call on 3 Mr. Ruhnke. 4 MR. TIGAR: May we do that at the end of the lunch 5 break, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: We will promptly do that. 8 THE COURT: The other item I wanted to take up is that 9 since it is possible that Mr. Yousry's testimony may be 10 finished today, that leaves the other two witnesses for 11 Mr. Yousry. I received a letter from the government. I didn't 12 get a response from Mr. Yousry. 13 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we faxed a response to 14 chambers on Wednesday, I believe. 15 THE COURT: My fax has not been working and 16 Mr. Fletcher was going to call all the parties to advise 17 them -- 18 MR. RUHNKE: He did. The message we got on Saturday 19 was the fax wasn't working. I didn't realize you had not 20 gotten it. I can hand a copy from my cocounsel up to your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 MR. RUHNKE: I had meant to asked you if you got it 24 earlier this morning, but it slipped my mind. 25 THE COURT: Am I correct that there are no other SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9879 4BTMSAT3 1 witnesses on behalf of Mr. Yousry? 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I didn't hear your question. 3 THE COURT: Am I correct that there are no other 4 witnesses on behalf of Mr. Yousry? 5 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: I have a reservation as to why the 7 testimony of those two witnesses together should take one hour. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I don't think they should take one hour, 9 your Honor. I don't think they should take more than 20 10 minutes. 11 THE COURT: Combined? 12 MR. RUHNKE: Combined. 13 THE COURT: The government objects to Mr. Yousry 14 calling Pastor Sweeney and Mr. Yousry's daughter to testify, 15 first, that Mr. Yousry was not a supporter of the militant 16 goals of Omar Abdel Rahman and, second, as character witnesses 17 to Mr. Yousry's honesty. The government argues that the 18 witnesses are cumulative to the testimony of other witnesses, 19 and the government notes that two other witnesses have 20 testified to the first issue, and that the testimony of 21 Mr. Clark was also relevant to that issue. 22 The government notes that there have been four 23 character witnesses thus far. The government also asserts that 24 Rule 403 should lead to exclusion because of the appeal to 25 sympathy. But the number of witnesses is not so great as to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9880 4BTMSAT3 1 cross the borderline of being too cumulative, particularly 2 since these witnesses give a more personal perspective than 3 professional associates who have testified thus far. 4 See Generally United States v. Zane, 495 F.2d 683, 698 5 (2d Cir. 1974). No abuse of discretion to limit character 6 witnesses to five. United States v. Diaz, 961 F.2d 1417, 1420, 7 noting that there have been 11 character witnesses. Nor is the 8 fact that the witnesses are a pastor and a family member, a 9 basis for exclusion. See, for example, Diaz, 961 F.2d at 10 1419-20, error, although harmless, to exclude character 11 evidence by Pastor. The jury is quite competent to assess 12 relevance of the testimony, to assess the interest of the 13 witnesses, and to give the testimony the proper weight. See 14 Generally United States v. Hahn, 230 F.3d 560, 564 (2d Cir. 15 2000). The objections are overruled. 16 Please make sure that the witnesses are available. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Yes, your Honor. 18 (Luncheon recess) 19 THE COURT: Did someone check the transcript to see? 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, so far I have not been able to 21 find anything, but I only looked for a minute. I am going to 22 check with the court reporter to see if there is a way that he 23 can assist me in searching. 24 THE COURT: I could have just misheard. 25 (Luncheon recess) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9881 4BT5SAT4 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 1:50 p.m. 3 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, if the government's 4 cross-examination were to end now Ms. Stewart's team would have 5 no questions of Mr. Yousry. 6 If more questions are asked and we desire to be heard, 7 I will take the initiative to stand up, if that's all right 8 with your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Sure. Thank you. 10 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, we do not foresee having any 11 questions for Mr. Yousry at this time. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 13 Ms. Baker, does the government -- 14 MS. BAKER: I have no further questions. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 16 MS. BAKER: I have no further questions. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Well, fine. You should -- we will 18 have Mr. Yousry on the stand and you can indicate that to the 19 jury and proceed to Mr. Ruhnke. 20 If Mr. Yousry would take the stand? 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9882 4BT5SAT4 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 4 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 5 Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher. 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 10 THE COURT: Ms. Baker. 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I have no further questions. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 Mr. Ruhnke, you may examine. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Thank you, your Honor. 15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 17 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you have in front of you the document that's 18 been marked Government Exhibit 706A? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. And do you recall being asked many, many questions from 21 document 706A? Government Exhibit 706A? 22 A. Yes, I do. 23 Q. What is that? What is Government Exhibit 706A? 24 A. This is raw, untested data that I took down sometime in 25 '97, '98. I really can't recall but it's raw, untested data. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9883 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Now, do you recall answering some of the questions on 2 cross-examination and making references to certain videotapes? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. And how did those videotapes relate to what is in 706A? 5 A. Well, I am quoting some of the people who were on those 6 videotapes in this document. 7 Q. And, do you remember the videotapes in particular? 8 A. I do remember that particular videotape, it's called 9 Islamic Revival. 10 Q. When did you first see that videotape or encounter that 11 videotape? What was happening? 12 A. In 1995 I believe when, during the trial of Sheikh Omar 13 Abdel Rahman and others, the FBI handed the defense 23 tapes 14 that they were seized from someplace in Denmark. The lawyers 15 asked me to write them a summary about those 23 tapes. 16 Q. And was this in your role at the Sheikh's trial? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And as a result of that request to write a summary of the 19 tapes, what did you do, if anything? 20 A. Well, there were 23 tapes, at least 23 hours, so the 21 lawyers, I believe, gave me until the next day, 8:00, 10:00 at 22 night to make up a summary. 23 I took the tapes home and started to work on them. I 24 took down notes of every specific tape. 25 MR. RUHNKE: If I may approach, your Honor? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9884 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. I am going to hand you a document -- 3 A. Thank you. 4 Q. -- that's marked MY-300 for identification. Do you see 5 that document? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And do you know where that document -- how that document 8 got here to Court? 9 A. Well, this document was seized from my house on April 9th, 10 2002. 11 Q. And are you able, looking at that document, to see some 12 indication of it being subject to a seizure by the FBI? 13 A. Yes. There is an orange red sticker on the lower right 14 corner of that notebook. It reads 2-29. 15 Q. And whose notebook is that? 16 A. This is my notebook. 17 Q. And on the front of the notebook is there a post-it? 18 A. Yes, there is a post-it note. 19 Q. And is there handwriting on the post-it? 20 A. This is my handwriting. 21 Q. And when did you place that post-it on the front of that 22 notebook? 23 A. Maybe 1995. '96. 24 Q. Was that post-it on it when the FBI seized it on April 9 -- 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9885 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. -- 2002? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Looking inside MY-300, without reading what's in there, 4 generally speaking, what is contained within MY-300? 5 First of all, what language is it in, primarily? 6 A. It's primarily in Arabic. 7 Q. What is contained within MY-300? 8 A. Notes that I took down from the various tapes that were 9 handed to the defense in 1995. 10 Q. Did you, yourself, create that document, that notebook? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to offer MY-300 13 into evidence. 14 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. Ruhnke? 15 THE COURT: Sure. 16 (Counsel conferring) 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, as a demonstrative exhibit. 18 Obviously it is in Arabic and won't mean much beyond what 19 Mr. Yousry describes it to be, so I offer MY-300 as a 20 demonstrative exhibit. 21 THE COURT: No objections. MY-300 received as a 22 demonstrative exhibit. 23 (Defendant's Exhibit MY-300 received in evidence) 24 MR. RUHNKE: May I approach the witness, your Honor? 25 THE COURT: Sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9886 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I'm going to place on the 2 screen, with the Court's permission, the cover of MY-300, if 3 that's all right. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Q. Mr. Yousry, looking at the document that's on the screen 6 right now, what is shown? 7 A. That is the front cover of the notebook with a post-it note 8 on it with my handwriting. It says "video summary." 9 Q. And what does that refer to? What does that reflect, that 10 video summary? 11 A. It refers to the 23 tapes that I summarized and the tape 12 that I basically used for this raw data. 13 Q. And, when you are referring to these, you are referring to 14 Government Exhibit 706A? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. And, I think you made reference earlier to a particular 17 video that worked its way into 706A, what was the name of that 18 video? 19 A. Islamic Revival. 20 Q. What was that about, as you recall the video? 21 A. I believe it was about an hour and 10 minutes video of the 22 leaders of the movement of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya, in Egypt, 23 after they were found not guilty in the case that was going on 24 in front of the Egyptian judicial system. 25 They sat down and they kind of were reminiscing about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9887 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 what happened and they spoke about the assassination attempt -- 2 assassination of President Sadat and the coup attempt that they 3 tried to achieve in a town called Asyout. I was asked about 4 that as well. 5 Also, the role of several of the leaders of that 6 particular movement at that particular time. 7 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I would ask for an instruction 8 that the content of the video is offered only for its effect, 9 if any, on Mr. Yousry. 10 MR. RUHNKE: No objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Yes. The testimony with respect to the 12 contents of the video are not offered for the truth of the 13 contents but for their effect on the witness' knowledge, intent 14 and state of mind. 15 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 16 Q. Did notes that you took from that video become part of 17 Government Exhibit 706A? 18 A. Yes, they did. 19 Q. Now, on cross-examination -- 20 THE COURT: And ladies and gentlemen, when I say 21 offer, I also mean received. Okay? 22 Go ahead. Sorry, Mr. Ruhnke. 23 Q. On cross-examination, do you remember being asked with 24 regard to 706A on several occasions, words to the effect of did 25 you write those words? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9888 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Do you remember questions like that? 2 A. Yes, do I remember that. 3 Q. And, in fact, did you write those words? 4 A. Did I write those words? Yes. 5 Q. What was the source of the words that you wrote? 6 A. Well, most of those words were taken out from that 7 particular video and other videos as well. 8 So, the sources were people on video saying things 9 that I wrote down as notes. 10 Q. And, later on, after writing down those notes as part of 11 your ongoing dissertation process, did you have occasion to 12 verify -- not verify -- determine whether the words were 13 accurate or not? 14 A. Yes, certainly. I tried to verify the facts mentioned in 15 that tape. I found out some of the facts just to be plainly 16 not true. Other facts I needed to do a lot of more check on. 17 Some of the facts that they did mention turned out to be 18 nothing more than propaganda campaign for their own good. 19 So, that's the process. 20 Q. Now, at the time you were taking notes and you created 21 Government Exhibit 706A, what was the potential scope of your 22 dissertation back when these notes were made? 23 A. At that time I was supposed to write about the movement and 24 its leader. The movement -- by the movement I mean Al-Gama'a 25 al-Islamiyya, and by the leader I mean Sheikh Omar Abdel SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9889 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Rahman. 2 Q. And, did there come a time when the scope or subject of 3 your dissertation changed somehow? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What changed? 6 A. The essence of the dissertation became Sheikh Omar Abdel 7 Rahman, the focus became Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. Instead of 8 focusing on the movement the focus became the leader. 9 Q. Do you recall who made that suggestion to you, if anyone? 10 A. Yes, I do. Professor Zachary Lockman. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point we would like 12 to read a brief excerpt of a conversation that's in evidence as 13 MY-1707X. I would ask Mr. Knepper to step forward and 14 Mr. Fanjul to step forward. 15 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I have a minute, please? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we will just do it once the 18 government -- we will do it on the Elmo, if that's okay for the 19 Court. 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, given that Exhibit MY-1707X 21 was read in its entirety on Mr. Yousry's direct testimony, we 22 object to a portion of it being reread. 23 MR. RUHNKE: We are only reading two or three pages 24 from it, your Honor, in response to an issue that was raised on 25 the cross. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9890 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Mr. Yousry, I'm going to ask you to look 3 at the screen when I get it up. First of all, for the record, 4 your Honor, this is a call dated March 28 of 2000 at 9:38 in 5 the evening. The participants are Mohammed Yousry and Ahmed 6 Abdel Sattar. It's recorded on Mr. Yousry's home telephone 7 number and it is an incoming call. 8 I'm going to ask Mr. Knepper to read the part of 9 Mr. Yousry and Mr. Fanjul to read the part of Mr. Sattar 10 starting about two thirds of the way down on the first page, 11 and we will see if we can get it isolated quickly. 12 If we can begin on the line that begins, "I called you 13 this afternoon." 14 (Whereupon, an excerpt of Defendant's Exhibit 1707X, 15 in evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 16 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, at this point I would cease 17 the reading of the transcript. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 20 Q. Mr. Yousry, do you remember that call taking place? 21 A. Yes, I do. 22 Q. And, what, generally speaking, were you reporting or 23 reflecting in your conversation with Mr. Sattar? 24 A. I was basically discussing with him the fact that I would 25 be focused only on the Sheikh, Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9891 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 instead of having a double focus in the project that I was 2 working on. 3 Q. And, whose suggestion was it that you cut down the project 4 or focused only on Sheikh Rahman? 5 MS. BAKER: Objection. Asked and answered. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 Q. As your thesis evolved, how did that conversation reflect 8 what actually happened with the Ph.D thesis? 9 A. Actually, I started to focus more on the life of Sheikh 10 Omar Abdel Rahman. I started to focus more on material and 11 data about him, tried to test it, tried to find out if the 12 facts are accurate or not. 13 So, basically, I put aside the movement and I started 14 to focus on the Sheikh. 15 Q. Now, you were asked questions on cross-examination with 16 respect to your knowledge of an individual named Rifa'i Taha. 17 Do you remember those questions? 18 A. Yes, I do. 19 Q. Did you ever have a conversation with Rifa'i Taha? 20 A. No. Never did. 21 Q. Did you ever correspond with him? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Who did you understand or -- let me back up a little bit. 24 What did you know about Rifa'i Taha and when did you 25 learn it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9892 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 A. Well, Rifa'i Taha was leader of Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. He 2 was not significant to my project. However, he became a very 3 significant figure in the newspapers after, I believe, 1998. 4 Things were written about him almost on a daily basis. 5 Articles were projecting his life speaking about him. 6 So, he became very prominent in 1998, 1999. 7 Q. What did you know about where Mr. Taha was residing when 8 you first heard about him? 9 A. That was also one of the facts that I checked and it turned 10 out to be untrue I had written in those notes. 11 I believe after the movement that he was associated 12 with in Afghanistan won the wore against the Soviets, they 13 tried to go back to their respective countries. 14 Q. What country was Mr. Taha from, based on your knowledge and 15 understanding? 16 A. I believe he was an Egyptian. 17 Q. Taking the period of the Afghani war against the Soviet 18 Union, did people from Egypt go to fight in that war? 19 A. Yes. Actually they were encouraged by the government to do 20 so. 21 Q. When that war ended and when the Soviet Union had been 22 defeated, kicked back out of Afghanistan, what measures did the 23 Egyptian government -- we will just focus on the Egyptian 24 government take -- with regard to the mujaheddin fought in 25 Afghanistan? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9893 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 A. They tried to stop them from coming back to the country. 2 They issued several laws, they issued some judicial decisions. 3 They passed sentence on several of them. 4 So, some of them ended up as political refugees in 5 Europe, others stayed in Afghanistan, other became political 6 refugees in other Arab countries. 7 Q. Do you know whether Mr. Taha was ever the subject, based on 8 your own knowledge and research, was ever the subject of any 9 kind of judicial decision in Egypt? 10 A. Yes. He was sentenced to death. 11 Q. To your knowledge and research, did he participate in his 12 trial? Was he even present? 13 A. No, he was not. He was sentenced to death in absentia. 14 Q. To your knowledge, did Mr. Taha ever return to Egypt? 15 A. I believe in November of 2001 he was handed over to the 16 Egyptian government by the Syrian government and nobody knows 17 what happened to him. Nobody heard about it since then, about 18 him since then. 19 Q. Do you have a view, based on your research, whether 20 Mr. Taha is alive or dead? 21 MS. BAKER: Objection. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. When you were interviewed by the FBI after September 11, 24 2001, do you remember whether they asked you about Mr. Taha and 25 what you knew about him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9894 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. Do you remember what you told the FBI? 3 A. Not really, no. I mean I don't remember exact details, no. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, may I approach for the 5 notebook, please? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 MS. BAKER: Sorry, your Honor. May I have another 9 minute to find my copies of the exhibit? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, Mr. Ruhnke, there are about 12 12 or 13 -- 13 MR. RUHNKE: First of all, let me ask you a 14 foundation, background question. 15 What are the exhibits contained in the 1300 series 16 that I have placed in front of you? 17 THE COURT: Could I stop you just for a moment? Could 18 both of you please keep your voice up? 19 MR. RUHNKE: Sure. Sorry, your Honor. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 21 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 22 Q. What are the exhibits that I have placed in front of you 23 that are marked Defendant's Exhibit MY-1300 through Defendant's 24 Exhibit MY-1312? Just describe, generally, what those are? 25 A. These are notes taken down by the FBI agents that he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9895 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 conducted the interview. 2 Q. Interviews with who? 3 A. With me. 4 Q. Focusing on those interviews for a moment, were you able to 5 observe any signs that the interviews were being tape recorded? 6 A. No, they were not tape recorded. No. 7 Q. And did you see the agents basically taking notes while you 8 spoke with them? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, referring you particularly to Defendant's Exhibit 11 MY-1307, can you find that for me, please? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. First of all, in the upper right-hand corner of these 14 exhibits, do you see a legend that reads: Yousry interview. 15 And then certain Bates numbers, sequential numbers for the 16 exhibit? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. And do you know who put those numbers on there? 19 A. The FBI. 20 Q. And were these disclosed as part of the discovery? 21 A. Yes, they were. 22 Q. Are these somewhat out of order chronologically? 23 A. Yes. Some of these, as I reviewed them, they were not in 24 order, yes. 25 Q. But, roughly speaking, 1300 through 1314 represent the FBI SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9896 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 summaries of their interviews with you post-9/11, is that 2 correct? 3 A. That is correct, yes. 4 Q. Now, I will ask you again. Do you remember what it is that 5 you told the FBI about Mr. Taha? 6 A. Not really. No, I don't. 7 Q. Would it help refresh your recollection if you looked at 8 their interview? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. I'm going to direct your attention, Mr. Yousry, to Exhibit 11 1307 at page 41, the number in the upper right-hand corner, and 12 to the final paragraph of that section. 13 Do you remember what it is that you told -- does it 14 help you refresh your recollection as to what you told the FBI 15 about the Al-Gama'a leadership and Mr. Taha and others, in 16 particular? 17 Does that help you remember? 18 A. Yes, it does. 19 Q. What did you tell the FBI -- first of all, let's back up a 20 little bit and get the date of this interview. 21 If you go to page 0036, which is the first page in 22 Defendant's Exhibit 1307, can you see the date that that 23 interview took place? It is at the bottom of the page? 24 A. Yes. It says 11/06. 25 Q. 11/06, what year? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9897 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 A. 2001. 2 Q. Does that refresh your recollection that there was an 3 interview that took place on or about November 6, 2001? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, directing your attention back to page 41, do you now 6 remember what it is you told the FBI about Al-Gama'a 7 al-Islamiyya leadership and Mr. Taha? 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I object to the scope of the 9 question. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I didn't hear the basis of the objection. 11 MS. BAKER: It's a hearsay objection based on the 12 scope of the question. It goes beyond the scope of questioning 13 on cross. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Prior consistent, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: The question was scope. There was a line 16 of questions with respect to Mr. Taha and then the question 17 went broader. 18 The objection was with respect to scope. 19 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 20 Q. Do you remember what you told the FBI about Mr. Taha and 21 your understanding of his role? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What did you tell them? 24 A. Well, I told them everything I know about him at the time; 25 that he was a leader in the movement, that he led a splinter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9898 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 after 1999, I believe, and that he was somewhere in Afghanistan 2 and that the Egyptian government, I believe, received him later 3 on from the Syrian government. 4 Q. Do you remember on April 9, 2002, following your arrest 5 again, whether or not you sat down with the FBI or spoke with 6 the FBI and answered questions following your arrest? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. And do you remember what you told the FBI on April 9, 2002, 9 about your knowledge of Mr. Taha? 10 A. I really don't recall if I -- 11 Q. I will refer you to defense Exhibit MY-1311 and direct your 12 attention particularly to page 77 of that exhibit. Would you 13 find that please, for me? 14 A. Yes, I found the page. 15 Q. Looking at the final paragraph on page 77 and going into 16 the top of page 78, do you remember what it is that you told 17 the FBI about Mr. Taha? 18 A. Yes. Yes. 19 Q. What did you tell him? 20 A. Well, I actually told him that I know most of the 21 information about Taha Musa, that's how they referred to him -- 22 was based on my research in my doctorate dissertation and I 23 knew that he was a leader in the Islamic movement and I knew 24 that he was a leader of a splinter movement and also that he 25 was handed over to the Egyptian government. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9899 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Did you have any discussion with the FBI whether or not you 2 were aware that Mr. Sattar was or was not in touch with Mr. -- 3 MS. BAKER: Objection, leading. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Having -- 6 THE COURT: Hold on. Please -- 7 MR. RUHNKE: Sorry, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Please, both Mr. Ruhnke and Mr. Yousry, 9 please keep your voice up. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. I'm sorry. 11 THE COURT: That's all right. Just, please, keep your 12 voice up. Thank you. 13 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 14 Q. Did you have any conversation as to your knowledge of 15 anyone else who may have actually been speaking with Mr. Taha? 16 MS. BAKER: Objection. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. What did you tell the FBI about that on April 9, 2002? 20 A. I told them that I was aware that Mr. Sattar was indirectly 21 in contact with Mr. Taha and I became aware of that on May 19 22 of 2000. 23 Q. Did you have your own view of Mr. Sattar's role or position 24 with regard to the Islamic Group or the way he represented 25 himself? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9900 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 A. Yes. In the beginning, actually as a part of this whole 2 collection of data, untested data, there were a lot of media 3 reports and Mr. Sattar himself, they all exaggerated his own 4 role within that particular movement. 5 And it turned out to be that that was not the case at 6 all. 7 Q. So, what view did you come to have with Mr. Sattar's 8 description of his own importance? 9 A. Exaggerated. It was very exaggerated. 10 Q. Staying with the FBI interviews, do you recall the day that 11 the FBI first came to speak with you? 12 A. I believe it was September 13 of 2001. 13 Q. September 13, 2001? 14 A. Yes, sir. 15 Q. And who was it that came to speak with you? 16 A. Detective Napoli, I believe, and Special Agent Kimberly 17 Whittle. 18 Q. Where did you speak with these two individuals? 19 A. They came to my house, unannounced. 20 Q. So, had you been expecting anyone from the FBI to be there? 21 A. No. No. 22 Q. Did they tell you why they were there? 23 A. They basically came to me saying that they just need to 24 talk to me for a while after what happened on September 11. 25 And I said, sure. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9901 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. How did you react to the agent showing up on that 2 particular day? What was your reaction? 3 MS. BAKER: Objection. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: I basically, in the beginning, did not 6 trust them as much. I was somehow very concerned about the 7 climate in the country at the time. 8 Q. Let me stop you there for a second. When you say you were 9 very concerned about the climate of the country at the time, 10 what do you mean? 11 A. Well, I'm an Arab American who works for lawyers that are 12 representing a major figure in the Islamic movement that was 13 just accused of blowing up the World Trade Center. So, it was 14 a time that I was extremely concerned, yes. 15 Q. How clear is your recollection of the first interview you 16 had with Agent Whittle and Detective Napoli? 17 A. Not clear. I have to read all the notes in order to 18 remember what happened that day. 19 Q. Was it your intent to be cooperative or was it your intent 20 to be deceptive? 21 A. No, my intent was to tell them everything that I remembered 22 at that day. 23 Q. And in retrospect, did you remember everything that they 24 asked about? 25 A. No. And I believe I called them back and I said I remember SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9902 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 a few other things and I updated them about what I remember, 2 yes. 3 Q. After -- you just referred to calling them back, do you 4 remember when it was that you called back the agents? 5 A. Two or three days later. I really didn't recall. 6 Q. Would it refresh your recollection to look at the 7 memorandum of that interview? 8 A. Yes, please. 9 Q. I'm going to direct your attention to Defendant's Exhibit 10 MY-1301 and ask you to see if that refreshes your recollection 11 first as to when the interview took place and what the nature 12 of the interview was, in person or on telephone, and what 13 occurred. 14 So, if you look at MY-1301 at Bates Number 0008? 15 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. First of all, when did that second call take place? 17 A. I believe it was the next day, September 14th. 18 Q. And what was the nature of the call? Do you remember -- 19 the nature of the contact, was it an interview, a telephone? 20 A. It was a telephone conversation, according to -- 21 Q. Do you remember one way or another whether you called them 22 or they called you? 23 A. I believe I called Agent Kimberly Whittle. I just wanted 24 to see if the numbers are right and I just tell her whatever I 25 wasn't able to remember that day. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9903 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Did you -- do you recall being asked about any discussions 2 regarding the U.S.S. Cole during your first interview on 3 September 13th? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. And had you recalled discussions of the U.S.S. Cole on 6 September 13? 7 A. No. I actually did not. 8 Q. After the interview on September 13, prior to calling them 9 the next day, September 14th, did you do something to refresh 10 your recollection? 11 A. Yes. I tried to think about it. I tried to go through my 12 notes, I tried to kind of, like, you know, figure out what 13 happened, when it happened. Because it's over a long period of 14 time, so. 15 Q. And, during the call back that you made on September 14th, 16 2001, did you provide additional information about what you 17 remembered regarding the U.S.S. Cole? 18 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase. 20 Q. Did you provide additional information on a topic the 21 agents had asked about the first day? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. What topic, among others, did you provide information on, 24 if any? 25 A. I provided them with an update about the topic of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9904 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 U.S.S. Cole. 2 Q. And what did you tell the agents on September 14 about what 3 you now remembered about the U.S.S. Cole, as it related to 4 Sheikh Rahman's case? 5 MS. BAKER: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence. 6 Q. Did you tell the agents something about the Cole on 7 September 14th? 8 A. Yes, I did. 9 Q. What did you tell the agents? 10 A. I told them what I remember, that I believe it was a book 11 signing party that was organized by Mr. Jabara and I just 12 recounted what happened to them during that particular, you 13 know, book signing party. 14 Q. And, what did you relate? Tell us what you related. 15 A. I told them that Mr. Jabara was holding this particular 16 book signing party for a friend of his and I was there and 17 Mr. Jabara was there, Ms. Lynne Stewart. Mr. Clark was 18 invited. I left before he came in. Mr. Sattar showed up, he 19 was shaken, he was so worried. And he was asking about 20 Mr. Jabara and he wanted to speak with him. And I'm not sure 21 if he spoke with Mr. Jabara or not but, you know, I wanted to 22 find out what was wrong with him. And he was so nervous and he 23 said that he got a call from some people claiming that they did 24 this for the Sheikh. 25 And I remember also that I told the FBI and I told him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9905 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 that this is crazy and he should change his number and things 2 of that nature. 3 And I told him what happened, so. 4 Q. You are relating to the FBI an event that occurred 5 approximately when? 6 A. I believe it was in October 2000. 7 Q. And the conversation with the FBI again that you are 8 relating took place on? 9 A. September 2001, so it was about a year before. 10 Q. This morning there was played a portion of the prison visit 11 that took place on July 13, 2001, regarding the U.S.S. Cole; do 12 you remember that? 13 A. Yes, I do. 14 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with the Court's permission, 15 we would like to read to the jury the complete excerpt from 16 that prison visit that concerns the U.S.S. Cole. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. First of all, by way of background, earlier in the prison 19 visit on July 13, was the topic of the Cole raised? 20 A. I believe I asked Ms. Stewart if now was a good time for me 21 to tell him that. 22 Q. As it turned out, did the conversation take place at that 23 moment? Or did it take place later on? 24 A. Oh, much later. I think it was about the last five or 10 25 minutes of the visit that day. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9906 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, with permission, I would like 2 to have read to the jury and we will display on the Elmo, the 3 two or three pages from 1717X. And I am trying to think who 4 was in this call. 5 I would ask Mr. Knepper to play Ms. Stewart during 6 this call -- I'm sorry, Mr. Knepper to play Mr. Yousry in this 7 call, Mr. Fanjul will play Ms. Stewart, and I will read the 8 part of Abdel Rahman. And, we will display these few pages on 9 the Elmo, if we may. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. RUHNKE: Starting at about page 12 -- sorry, line 12 12 on that document. I will have Mr. Fanjul start by reading 13 the part of Ms. Stewart at that point. 14 (Whereupon, an excerpt of Defendant's Exhibit 1717X, 15 in evidence, was displayed and read for the jury) 16 Q. That's the end of that particular segment. 17 Mr. Yousry, when the FBI asked you or the agents asked 18 you on September 13 whether you in fact remembered a discussion 19 of the Cole during the recent prison visit, did you remember 20 this particular piece of conversation? 21 A. No. 22 Q. The next day, did you attempt to supplement whatever 23 information you had? 24 A. Yes, I did. Whatever I remember I called him back and I 25 told him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9907 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Looking at the exhibits that are in front of you, would you 2 pick up again Defendant's Exhibit MY-1301, take a look at the 3 front cover, and tell us again what the date of that contact 4 was? 5 A. September 13, 2000. 6 Q. I'm looking at 1301 of the second exhibit, MY-1301? 7 A. Oh, page 8. I'm sorry. It's September 14th, 2000. 8 Q. And looking through this conversation, I mean this 9 memorandum, without looking at this memorandum, would you 10 remember everything that took place during that telephone call? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Would this memorandum help you refresh your recollection 13 about what took place -- 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. -- during that call? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Generally speaking, and not really word-for-word, what did 18 you talk about with the FBI on September 13 and September 14, 19 2001? 20 MS. BAKER: Objection. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Just topics, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 A. Topics like the calls of the Sheikh, the legal weekly 24 calls. Topics about updating him about what happened with the 25 U.S.S. Cole. Topics concerning the September 11 attacks. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9908 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Topics concerning the leadership of IG, Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya. 2 Those are the topics that I recall right now. 3 Q. Looking at the next exhibit in sequence, Defense Exhibit 4 MY-1302, do you have an independent memory as to when the next 5 contact with the agents was? 6 A. No. No. 7 Q. Would looking at the cover page of MY-1302, at Bates page 8 12, help refresh your recollection as to when that took place? 9 A. September 21st, 2000. 10 Q. And, was that over the telephone or in person? 11 A. No, I think this was a personal interview. 12 Q. And had an event taken place just before you met with the 13 agents? 14 A. I can't recall. 15 Q. Would you look in the first paragraph on Bates page 0012, 16 see if that refreshes your recollection as to whether this 17 interview followed a particular event. 18 A. Yes. It says that it was following the phone call that 19 took place between the Sheikh and his attorneys. 20 Q. And you know from your knowledge of this case -- sorry. I 21 will rephrase that. 22 Do you know from your knowledge of this case whether 23 there is a complete transcript of that phone call that's been 24 entered into evidence? 25 A. Yes. There is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9909 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. And what did you discuss during the call? 2 MS. BAKER: Objection. Hearsay. 3 MR. RUHNKE: General topics, your Honor. 4 MS. BAKER: Objection. Hearsay. Beyond the scope of 5 what was inquired into on direct. 6 THE COURT: I will allow it. The topics. 7 Q. What were the topics of this interview? 8 A. The topics varies from the newspaper right to the client 9 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman; questions asked by the client to the 10 attorneys regarding events that took place on September 11th; 11 update about political situation in the Middle East. 12 Q. And did you do your best -- what were you endeavoring to do 13 in that interview with the FBI? 14 A. It's very clear I was just trying to tell them everything I 15 remembered. 16 Q. Did you attempt to be truthful or attempt to be deceptive? 17 A. Truthful, yes. 18 Q. Directing your attention to Bates Number 0017, Defendant's 19 Exhibit MY-1303, does that refresh your recollection as to when 20 the next call, at least in sequence, took place? What's the 21 date of the next memorandum of interview? 22 A. September 17, 2000. 23 Q. Now, looking at Defendant's Exhibit 1302 and 1303, do those 24 appear to be in chronological sequence? 25 A. I'm sorry, I couldn't get the question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9910 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Do they appear to be in chronological sequence or are they 2 slightly out of order? 3 A. No, they're out of order, yes. 4 Q. During the interview with the FBI that took place in 5 September 17, 2001, what were you talking about? What were the 6 general top genetics? 7 MS. BAKER: Objection. Mr. Ruhnke's question gave a 8 different date than the witness' answer. 9 MR. RUHNKE: I thought I said September 17th, so. I 10 will rephrase it, your Honor. 11 Q. During the September 17 interview with the FBI what, 12 generally, did you talk about? 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the year in Mr. Ruhnke's 14 question did not match the year in the witness' answer. 15 THE COURT: All right, just rephrase. 16 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 17 Q. September 17, 2001? 18 A. It actually says September 17, 2000, so it's a typo. 19 Q. Are you looking at MY-1303? 20 A. I'm looking at Bates Number 0017, yes. 21 Q. During this particular conversation which took -- I'm 22 sorry. 23 Look at the first paragraph or the paragraph that 24 started with the word "details," do you see that? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9911 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Does that reflect the actual date that the interview took 2 place? 3 A. Yes, it does. 4 Q. That date is what? 5 A. September 17, 2001. 6 Q. Okay. During that conversation, what did you talk about? 7 A. The topics covered Mr. Sattar, the topics covered 8 Mr. Ramsey Clark, Mr. Jabara's involvement with the Sheikh, and 9 basically it's a general update about the call that took place. 10 Q. Continuing to MY-1304 which appears at 0020, again, did 11 these meetings revolve around particular events, as you recall 12 them? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And, generally speaking, was there a routine that began to 15 develop between you and the FBI as to when you would speak? 16 A. Yes. I started to trust them more and we usually spoke 17 after several phone calls took place, just update them that 18 there is nothing wrong taking place and just tell them about 19 the topics that were discussed and basically that's what 20 happened. 21 Q. And as you continued through these, through Exhibit 1305, 22 what is the date of 1305, the interview on 1305 which is at 23 0025, and you might have to look at the top of page 0026 to get 24 the date. 25 A. It says -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9912 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Look at 0026 to see if you can get the date. 2 A. It says October 14, 2001. 3 Q. During this period of time post-September 11, were you 4 working as an interpreter for anyone other than Sheikh Rahman? 5 A. Oh, yes. Sure. I was working actually, at the time, for 6 ABC. 7 Q. Did the FBI make inquiries into those areas? 8 MS. BAKER: Objection. Relevance. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 Q. What was your purpose in attempting to answer the FBI's 11 questions, to be truthful or to be deceptive? 12 A. Just to be truthful and tell them as much as I remember. 13 Q. Continuing through these documents, all the way through 14 Bates Number 79, did you continue to meet with the FBI on a 15 regular basis into the year 2002? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And, what was your purpose in meeting with the FBI? 18 A. Again, just to update them, generally, about what's taking 19 place to assure them that there is nothing out of the ordinary 20 happening and answer any questions they might have. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I would like to offer into 22 evidence the entire MY-1300 series reflecting all the 23 interviews, with one exception. There is one interview report 24 that's obviously a draft of a later report. If the government 25 wants it in, that's fine. But it is clearly a draft and not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9913 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 the final, later report. 2 I'm offering the 1300 series. 3 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, we object on hearsay grounds. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, can we be heard at the break 6 on that? 7 THE COURT: Sure. 8 BY MR. RUHNKE:: 9 Q. Mr. Yousry, on cross-examination you were asked about your 10 teaching job at York College; do you still teach at York 11 College? 12 A. No, I don't. I was fired as a result of this indictment. 13 Q. Would you like to go back to teaching at York College, if 14 you could? 15 A. There is a position for me at York College, yes. Professor 16 Coleman is keeping that for me. 17 Q. And, there were a lot of questions asked of you about the 18 importance of your Ph.D. Do you remember those questions? 19 A. Yes, I do. Yes. 20 Q. And, is your Ph.D or getting a good Ph.D thesis done 21 important enough to you to join a conspiracy to fraud the 22 United States government? 23 MS. BAKER: Objection. Leading. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 A. No, it's not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9914 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 Q. Is making a nice Ph.D thesis important enough to you so 2 that you would knowingly assist a terrorist organization in 3 kidnapping and murders? 4 A. No, it's not. 5 Q. Are you guilty of attempting resume padding? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Are you proud of that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Are you guilty of Counts One, Four and Five of this 10 indictment? 11 A. No, I'm not. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Nothing further on redirect, your Honor. 13 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, because it could affect 14 recross, I would ask that we address the issue of the exhibits 15 offered by Mr. Ruhnke. 16 THE COURT: All right. We will take a brief break, 17 ladies and gentlemen. 18 Please, remember my continuing instructions. Please, 19 don't talk about the case at all, always remember to keep an 20 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have 21 instructed you on the law, and you have gone to the jury room 22 to begin your deliberations. 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9915 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, I did offer the 1300 series, 5 which are the memorandum of interview prepared by the FBI with 6 regard to their interviews of Mr. Yousry. The government 7 picked one of those interviews, the first one on September 8 13th, 2001, and cross-examined him on those interviews as if he 9 were attempting to be deceptive with the FBI. 10 The interviews covering a period of time up into the 11 day of his arrest but prior to that the last interview prior to 12 the date of his arrest was February 2, 2002 approximately two 13 months before the actual arrest, constitute the FBI's running 14 summaries of what they believe Mr. Yousry told him. They're 15 certainly admissible against the government as a police report 16 exception to the hearsay rule. 17 THE COURT: Which is that, exactly? 18 MR. RUHNKE: 803.8c. 19 THE COURT: Go ahead. 20 MR. RUHNKE: 803.8C says that public records and 21 reports are generally not admissible against defendants but are 22 admissible against the government in criminal cases and that's 23 what we have here. I am offering these against the government 24 unless the circumstances were untrustworthy or something. I 25 don't believe the government maintains that these are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9916 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 untrustworthy since they were cross-examined on. 2 What they do is contain Mr. Yousry's truthful 3 recitations to the FBI over a many month period of time, a time 4 when he is not aware that the prison calls are being tape 5 recorded. And yet, if you match up these interviews against 6 what was in the prison calls, you find that they match, quite 7 accurately indeed. That undercuts the government's suggestion 8 that Mr. Yousry was attempting to be deliberately deceptive to 9 the FBI, which was the clear thrust of the cross-examination 10 this morning or early this afternoon before the government 11 concluded its cross-examination and we broke for lunch. 12 They also, even if not offered for their truth, 13 accurately reflect Mr. Yousry's state of mind in that he is 14 willing to be cooperative with the FBI, describe his activities 15 truthfully, describe the activities of others truthfully as it 16 bears on the idea that he has no consciousness that he is doing 17 anything wrong, no consciousness of guilt. Indeed, 18 consciousness of innocence is the nonhearsay purpose for which 19 these are offered. 20 But, I do believe the government made them relevant by 21 their cross-examination and that it is unfair to pick the one 22 initial report and claim that that's the universe of these 23 calls. 24 So, I offer the entire MY-1300 series, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9917 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the reports contain two levels 2 of hearsay. The first level of hearsay is that the report 3 itself is an out-of-court statement of the FBI agent or agents 4 who wrote it. Perhaps the hearsay exception that Mr. Ruhnke 5 cites might get past that first level of hearsay. I don't 6 know, I would need to look at it more closely, but that hearsay 7 exception does not get past the second level of hearsay in each 8 report which is that each report contains out-of-court 9 statements by Mr. Yousry and there is not a hearsay exception 10 that would support the admissibility of those out-of-court 11 statements by Mr. Yousry. 12 As to what was inquired into on cross-examination, it 13 was statements actually in three of the reports as to 14 particular subject matter, that is, some of the historical 15 events that Mr. Yousry was asked about by the FBI, namely what 16 had occurred during prison visits in the past. 17 There are a number of reports above and beyond three. 18 Nothing that happened on cross-examination makes relevant 19 anything in the reports other than the three that were 20 referenced on cross-examination. And as Mr. Ruhnke has 21 elicited from Mr. Yousry, much of what was discussed in all of 22 Mr. Yousry's communications with the FBI were the prison calls 23 that were ongoing at the time and nothing that I ask Mr. Yousry 24 on cross-examination about what he had told the FBI about past 25 events opens the door to what he was telling the FBI about what SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9918 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 were then, essentially, current events, that is, the prison 2 calls that were ongoing at the time. 3 And so, it's my understanding of the law that the 4 hearsay rule would forbid Mr. Yousry offering his own prior 5 statements unless they were to somehow come in to provide 6 necessary context for the parts that were inquired about on 7 cross-examination. 8 And because the discussions relating to the prison 9 calls that were ongoing at the time did not provide context for 10 what Mr. Yousry did or didn't tell the agents about the prison 11 visits in the past, there is not an exception to the hearsay 12 rule that would make those other portions and certainly the 13 other reports of the other dates of communications admissible. 14 When Mr. Yousry is offering them they are his own prior 15 statements and, therefore, hearsay. 16 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we join Mr. Ruhnke's 17 application. I don't think -- this doesn't get to the exchange 18 of correspondence that we have had because of the 803.8. 19 My understanding is that the bureau deliberately does 20 not make 302s into statements of the witness being interviewed 21 and that you will always have an uphill battle when you try to 22 say that a 302 is Jencks material. 23 And, in any case, we believe that for a nonhearsay 24 purpose, this lack of consciousness of guilt which is displayed 25 by the consistent course of Mr. Yousry's behavior, is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9919 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 exculpatory of Ms. Stewart. 2 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, just one. Rule 803.6 speaks 3 in matters pursuant concerning law. When the FBI conducts 4 interviews naturally the subject of the interviews are going to 5 be one level of hearsay. And I think this is classic of what 6 806.3C is talking about when it talks about hearsay, it makes a 7 hearsay exception. 8 The extent to which Mr. Yousry reports on other 9 people's statements can be cured with a limiting instruction 10 saying only to the extent that they bear on Mr. Yousry's own 11 intent and state of mind as reflected in these reports. 12 But I believe they're admissible for hearsay, pursuant 13 to a hearsay exception and I believe they're also admissible, 14 even if not offered for the truth, for nonhearsay purpose. 15 So we offer the 1300 series. 16 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if they're not offered for 17 their truth then they don't seem to have any relevance. 18 Mr. Ruhnke has already elicited from Mr. Yousry that 19 he spoke with the FBI on a number of occasions and that he 20 provided them with information about the prison calls that were 21 going on at the time. 22 If the exhibits are not being offered for their truth 23 then they don't add anything to that record which exists 24 already. And no one has taken issue with Mr. Yousry's 25 testimony that he was truthful with the FBI about what was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9920 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 going on in the prison calls at the time. 2 The only cross-examination, as I said earlier, was 3 about what he told them about the historic events. 4 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, whether Mr. Yousry was honest 5 with the FBI, right now depends on Mr. Yousry's credibility and 6 the government. It is easier for the government to say no one 7 takes issue with it but a member of the jury might since his 8 credibility was attacked on cross-examination and, therefore, 9 these stand as documentary evidence that is admissible for, as 10 I said -- it is admissible for the truth of the statements 11 pursuant to 803.6c but also admissible as, as I say -- did I 12 say 6? 803.8C, also admissible as to Mr. Yousry's state of 13 mind during a very relevant time period, during a period where 14 the indictment is covered by the indictment; the indictment 15 carries through it to the day of the indictment up to April of 16 2002. 17 So, I renew my offer of 1300 series. 18 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, now that I have looked at the 19 text of Rule 803.8c, it refers to factual findings as a result 20 of an investigation, which is not what these reports are. 21 These reports merely set forth what Mr. Yousry himself said to 22 the agents on the occasions when they spoke with him, so they 23 do not fall within the -- the reports do not fall within the 24 terms of 803.8c. 25 THE COURT: The parties are certainly welcome to brief SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9921 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 this further, but at this point I will sustain the objection. 2 As described to me, these are not 803.8c factual 3 findings resulting from an investigation by the government. In 4 any event, all of the statements by Mr. Yousry, when offered by 5 Mr. Yousry, begin with the exclusion for hearsay if offered for 6 the truth of what Mr. Yousry is saying. There are, of course, 7 exceptions both if not offered for the truth and exceptions as 8 to whether they would be hearsay. But, I allowed the 9 exploration with Mr. Yousry, and would allow further 10 exploration if the defendant wished, with respect to prior 11 consistent statements to answer an allegedly incomplete or 12 misleading statement; and I allowed the witness to testify also 13 about even other topics that went beyond the topics that were 14 opened up by the government, to answer first of all, any 15 contention that specific statements by Mr. Yousry were not 16 correct. 17 Mr. Yousry was entitled and can continue to say no. 18 He corrected any such statements at a subsequent interview, and 19 that he had a series of conferences in which he explored other 20 topics and was truthful even though that could arguably go 21 beyond prior consistent statements. But they are -- I allowed 22 the witness to testify about that and if the defense wants 23 further statements along the same line, I will listen to 24 further statements along the same line. That doesn't make all 25 of the documents themselves admissible either on first level of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9922 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 hearsay or the second level. 2 You can take some more time. I will take another five 3 minutes. 4 (Recess) 5 MR. RUHNKE: Should Mr. Yousry resume the stand? 6 We don't have any further application so we don't have 7 anything other than recross. 8 Your Honor, we are supposed to break at 4:00 today? 9 THE COURT: Yes. And I take it that none of the other 10 defendants have any -- none of the other defendants have 11 anything before recross? 12 MR. TIGAR: No, your Honor. 13 MR. PAUL: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: And Mr. Ruhnke, did you say before the 15 jury no further questions, correct? 16 MR. RUHNKE: I will. I don't know if I did. I don't 17 know that I but I will, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. All right, let's bring in the jury. 19 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, may I ask, I have lost track 20 of where exhibits are, does Mr. Yousry have 706A in front of 21 him? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 23 MS. BAKER: Thank you. 24 (Continued on next page) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9923 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - redirect 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Yousry is on the stand. 3 Mr. Fletcher? 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Yousry, you are reminded you 5 are still under oath. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Thank you. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Ruhnke. 8 MR. RUHNKE: I have no further questions on redirect, 9 your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 Ms. Baker? 12 RECROSS EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. BAKER:: 14 Q. Mr. Yousry, Mr. Ruhnke asked you a series of questions 15 about Government Exhibit 706A, do you have that document in 16 front of you? 17 A. Yes, I do. 18 Q. In response to Mr. Ruhnke's questions you testified a 19 little while ago that most of the words in Government Exhibit 20 706A were from videotapes. Was that your testimony? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Directing your attention to the second page of Government 23 Exhibit 706A to the second paragraph of that page, you wrote in 24 there, did you not, that in narrating the story of Al-Gama'a 25 al-Islamiyya, that you were depending on original sources SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9924 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - recross 1 collected over a period of six years from North America, 2 Europe, Asia and Africa, personal and phone interviews with the 3 top leadership of the movement in and outside of prison in 4 North America and Egypt, original materials collected in the 5 form of books, audio tapes, videotapes and flyers collected 6 from Afghanistan, Europe and the Middle East? 7 A. Yes. 8 MS. BAKER: No further questions. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. RUHNKE: No reredirect, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Yousry, you are excused. 12 You may step down. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 14 (Witness excused) 15 MR. STERN: We would like to call Pastor Vincent 16 Sawyer. 17 VINCENT SAWYER, 18 called as a witness by the Defendant Yousry, 19 having duly affirmed, testified as follows: 20 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Please state your full name and 21 state your last name, slowly, for the record. 22 THE WITNESS: Vincent Sawyer. S-A-W-Y-E-R. 23 THE COURT: Could you pull your chair in and speak 24 loudly and sort of into the microphone? Thank you. 25 All right, Mr. Stern. You may examine. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9925 4BT5SAT4 Yousry - recross 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. STERN: 3 Q. Pastor Sawyer, what kind of work do you do? 4 A. I'm a full-time pastor. 5 Q. Are you a full-time pastor at particular institution? 6 A. Yes. I'm senior pastor of Faith Baptist Church in Corona, 7 Queens. 8 Q. I take it that's a Baptist church? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What's your educational background? 11 A. Postgraduate, masters degree in theology. 12 Q. Where did you go to get that degree? 13 A. Cavalry Baptist theological seminary in Lansdale, 14 Pennsylvania. 15 Q. How long have you been a pastor? 16 A. For 16 and a half years. 17 Q. You know someone named Mohammed Yousry? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you see him in court here? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Tell me what he is wearing. 22 A. Well, I'm a little color-blind but I think he is wearing a 23 sweater with a shirt. 24 Q. Would it be fair to say he is the fifth one down from this 25 table? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9926 4BT5SAT4 Sawyer - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. How do you know Mr. Yousry? 3 A. I know him primarily through his wife, Sarah, who is a 4 member of our church for many years, and his daughter Lesley. 5 Q. And how often, about in your life, have you met and spoken 6 with Mr. Yousry? 7 A. Well, I have known him for 16 and a half years, the whole 8 time I have been a pastor here in Queens, and I have met with 9 him about every year, several occasions, visiting his home 10 and -- for dinner, things like that. 11 Q. And I take it, from what you have said, that his wife was a 12 member of your church, is that right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Have you performed any professional services for members of 15 Mr. Yousry's family? 16 A. Yes, I have. 17 This summer -- or actually May 22nd I conducted the 18 wedding of his daughter, Lesley. 19 Q. And, while his wife was a member of your church, about how 20 often did she attend church? 21 A. Twice a week. 22 Q. Now, in the times that you have met Mr. Yousry and spoke 23 with him about the wedding, has he ever done anything to make 24 you think that he looks down on Christian people? 25 A. No. In no way. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9927 4BT5SAT4 Sawyer - direct 1 Q. To your knowledge, has he ever interfered with his family's 2 ability to practice their faith? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Have you had conversations with him in your meetings with 5 him about Islam? 6 A. Yes. 7 (Continued next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9928 4BTMSAT5 Sawyer - direct 1 Q. Are you aware of what religion he was born? 2 A. I know he was born in Egypt, and so I assumed he was born 3 into the Muslim religion, but I know him to be a nonreligious 4 person. 5 Q. Has he ever said things to you to make you think that he 6 supports fundamentalist Islam in any way? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Have you had an opportunity to talk with people in the 9 community about Mr. Yousry's reputation for honesty and 10 truthfulness? 11 A. I have had the opportunity to talk among people of our 12 congregation who know him, about his integrity. 13 Q. Have you also formed your own opinion from your own 14 contacts with him about whether or not he is a truthful and 15 honest person? 16 A. Yes, I have. And I believe he is a truthful, humble, 17 personable, friendly individual. 18 MR. STERN: Thank you, Pastor Sawyer. 19 MR. BARKOW: We have no questions, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: No further questions. The witness is 21 excused. You may step down. 22 (Witness excused) 23 MR. STERN: We would like to call Leslie Yousry Davis. 24 LESLIE YOUSRY DAVIS, 25 called as a witness by Defendant Yousry, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9929 4BTMSAT5 Sawyer - direct 1 having been duly sworn, testified as follows: 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. STERN: 4 Q. Leslie, how old are you? 5 A. 22 years old. 6 Q. Where were you born? 7 A. Queens, New York. 8 Q. Who are your parents? 9 A. Mohammed and Sara Yousry. 10 Q. Where do you live now? 11 A. I live in Connecticut right now. 12 Q. With whom do you live? 13 A. With my husband. 14 Q. How long have you been married? 15 A. Six months and a couple of weeks. 16 Q. Who performed the wedding for you? 17 A. Pastor Vincent Sawyer. 18 Q. Before you lived with your husband in Connecticut, where 19 did you live? 20 A. I lived with my parents in Queens. 21 Q. What's your educational background? 22 A. I have a bachelor of science in psychology from Tennessee 23 Temple University. 24 Q. What kind of a school is Tennessee Temple University? 25 A. It is a Christian college. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9930 4BTMSAT5 Yousry - Davis - direct 1 Q. Who paid for you to go to school? 2 A. My dad. 3 Q. When you decided to go to a Christian college, did your 4 father interfere with that in any way? 5 A. Not at all. In fact, he was the one who took me down to 6 see all the different colleges I wanted to see. 7 Q. Now, what is your religion? 8 A. I am a born-again Christian. 9 Q. Who else in your family shares that religion? 10 A. My mother and my husband. 11 Q. How about your father, does he share that religion with 12 you? 13 A. No. My dad is not religious. 14 Q. When you say he is not religious, do you know what religion 15 he was born into? 16 A. He was born into the Muslim religion, but he is a 17 nonpracticing Muslim. 18 Q. Did you ever see him do anything? 19 A. No, never. 20 Q. Did you attend church during the time you were growing up? 21 A. Yes. Every Sunday. 22 Q. Do you still attend church now? 23 A. Yes, I do. 24 Q. Did your father ever try to interfere with either you or 25 your mother's attendance at church? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9931 4BTMSAT5 Yousry - Davis - direct 1 A. Never. 2 Q. Did your father ever try to convince you or your mother to 3 convert to Islam? 4 A. No, never. 5 Q. Did your father ever do anything that made you think that 6 he was in any way a supporter of fundamentalist Islam? 7 A. No. 8 MR. STERN: Thanks, Leslie. I have nothing else. 9 MR. BARKOW: We have no questions, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: No further questions, the witness is 11 excused. You may step down. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 13 (Witness excused) 14 MR. STERN: Your Honor, at this time Mr. Yousry rests. 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, that concludes the 16 portion of the trial in which I explained to you that 17 Mr. Yousry would be given an opportunity to present witnesses 18 and the other parties would be given an opportunity to 19 cross-examine. 20 And as I told you, no defendant is ever under any 21 obligation to present any witnesses or present any evidence to 22 you. At this point I am going to take a brief recess for about 23 five minutes. 24 Please, please, remember my continuing instructions. 25 Don't talk about this case at all. Always remember to keep an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9932 4BTMSAT5 1 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have 2 instructed you on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to 3 begin your deliberations. I will see you soon. 4 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 5 the jury room. 6 (Jury not present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated all. 8 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, since we are next up, in terms 9 of scheduling, can we have a side bar, please? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (At the side bar) 12 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, knowing full well that we are 13 breaking in about half an hour, we are prepared to proceed. We 14 would prefer to begin Monday. We will begin with reading of 15 transcripts and, quite frankly, the first transcript we have is 16 fairly lengthy in time, and I think will probably take at least 17 45 minutes to read. Our request is rather than start reading a 18 transcript and going forward, we would prefer to begin on 19 Monday. 20 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, what we have for our defense 21 case is we have about 100 pages of transcripts we want to read. 22 We have a witness we may have to call out of order who is a 23 translator and Mr. Sattar. Mr. Sattar will start testifying on 24 Monday and we expect his direct examination to be at least 25 three days. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9933 4BTMSAT5 1 MR. PAUL: The other thing -- the other issue with 2 regard to our witness who is a translator is I don't know where 3 we left it in terms of working Tuesday. I don't know if your 4 Honor has ruled if we are working on Tuesday or if Mr. Ruhnke's 5 request -- I know he requested not to -- that will have a 6 bearing on keeping our witnesses available because Tuesday and 7 Thursday, given his scheduling, is preferable for him to come 8 in and testify. We could proceed in either case. I just want 9 to bring that to the Court's attention as well. 10 THE COURT: I really think it is better not to lose 11 half an hour today, particularly since it is easily able -- a 12 transcript is easily able to be broken up. And so I'd like to 13 start. Then I'll talk to you about the schedule when I let the 14 jury go at four. 15 MR. FALLICK: We need about five minutes to get 16 notebooks and bring our readers up. 17 THE COURT: The other thing is, I also -- 18 MR. FALLICK: We need five minutes to start just too 19 get our readers and our exhibits up here. 20 MR. PAUL: One other thing, in terms of scheduling and 21 how we are proceeding, I want to request your Honor's 22 permission to allow all the parties to shift down where they 23 are presently seated. We would like to take up the first three 24 seats which would allow Mr. Fallick, myself, and Mr. Sattar to 25 sit. We have run this by the marshals. They are in agreement SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9934 4BTMSAT5 1 to do this. 2 THE COURT: That's fine. 3 (Recess) 4 THE COURT: I always ask after a defendant rests if 5 there are any applications. Any applications? 6 I would say the same sort of thing that I said before 7 Mr. Yousry began or Ms. Stewart began before Mr. Sattar begins. 8 Defendant is not required to call any witnesses, produce any 9 evidence. 10 MR. PAUL: We completely understand that, as does our 11 client. 12 THE COURT: You want me to say that for the jury? 13 MR. PAUL: Yes. 14 THE COURT: That's fine. 15 Let's call in the jury. 16 (Jury present) 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we turn now to the 18 portion of the trial in which Mr. Sattar is given the 19 opportunity to present witnesses and the other parties are 20 given the opportunity to cross-examine. 21 As I've explained to you before, none of the 22 defendants is ever required to call any witnesses or to present 23 any evidence because each of the defendants is presumed to be 24 innocent and the burden of proof is always on the government to 25 prove all of the counts of the indictment, all of the elements SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9935 4BTMSAT5 1 of the counts beyond a reasonable doubt. 2 The defendants are given the opportunity, if they 3 wish, to call any witnesses if they so desire. And so we turn 4 to the portion of the trial in which Mr. Sattar is given that 5 opportunity. 6 Mr. Fallick. 7 MR. FALLICK: May I proceed, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. FALLICK: May I read and display to the jury a 10 stipulation that has been marked as AS-1? 11 THE COURT: All right. And AS-1 is received in 12 evidence. 13 (Defendant's Exhibit AS-1 received in evidence) 14 MR. FALLICK: The parties hereby stipulate and agree 15 that: The audio CDs marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibits AS-17A and 16 17B are CDs containing true and accurate telephone 17 conversations intercepted by the FBI between Ahmed Sattar and 18 other persons pursuant to a court-authorized wiretap. 19 The transcripts marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibits 2T, 20 3T, 4T, 5T, 6T, 11T, 12T, and 14T are true and accurate 21 translations from Arabic to English of the corresponding 22 conversations contained in Sattar Exhibit 17. Sattar Exhibits 23 2T, 3T, 4T, 5T, 6T, 11T, 12T, and 14T were prepared by 24 qualified expert Arabic to English translators retained by the 25 defense from a private translation agency. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9936 4BTMSAT5 1 The tape marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 9 (AS-9) was 2 seized by the government during the search of Mr. Sattar's 3 residence on April 9, 2002. Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 10 (AS-10) is 4 the Arabic transcript of AS-9 and Ahmed Sattar 10T is the 5 English translation of AS-10. Sattar Exhibit 10T was prepared 6 by qualified expert Arabic to English translators retained by 7 the defense from a private translation agency. 8 The computer diskette marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 9 15 (AS-15) was derived from files on a computer seized by the 10 government during the search of Mr. Sattar's residence on April 11 9, 2002. Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 16 (AS-16) is one file in Arabic 12 that is contained on AS-15. Sattar Exhibit 16-T is the English 13 translation of AS-16. Sattar Exhibit 16T was prepared by 14 qualified expert Arabic to English translators retained by the 15 defense from a private translation agency. 16 Ahmed Sattar 19 (AS-19) is an Arabic translation of a 17 document contained in a disk (GX2205) made from the computer 18 seized by the government during the search of Mr. Sattar's 19 residence on April 9, 2002. Ahmed Sattar 19T is an English 20 translation of AS-19. AS-19T was prepared by qualified Arabic 21 to English translators retained by the defense from a private 22 translation agency. 23 All voice attributions on Sattar Exhibits 2T, 3T, 4T, 24 5T, 6T, 7T, 10T, 11T, 12T, and 14T, that is, all 25 identifications on the transcripts of who is speaking at a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9937 4BTMSAT5 1 particular time, truly and accurately identifies the speaker on 2 the corresponding tape. 3 Agreed to and stipulated by all of the parties, dated 4 November 22, 2004. 5 Your Honor at this point we offer into evidence Ahmed 6 Sattar Exhibits 2T, 3T, 4T, 5T, 6T, 7T, 8, 9, 10, 10T, 11T, 7 12T, 13, 14T, 15, 16, 16T, 17, 19, and 19T. 8 THE COURT: Those exhibits are received in evidence. 9 Are there any -- 10 MR. MORVILLO: They all get limiting instructions that 11 they are not for the truth. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, all of the exhibits are 13 being offered for Mr. Sattar's knowledge and state of mind and 14 intent. 15 (Defendant's Exhibits AS-2T, AS-3T, AS-4T, AS-5T, 16 AS-6T AS-7T received in evidence) 17 (Defendant's Exhibits AS-8, AS-9 AS-10, AS-10T, 18 AS-11T, AS-12T received in evidence) 19 (Defendant's Exhibits AS-13, AS-14T, AS-15, AS-16, 20 AS-16T, AS-17 received in evidence) 21 (Defendant's Exhibits AS-19, AS-19T received in 22 evidence) 23 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Fallick? 24 THE COURT: Sure. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I stand corrected. It is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9938 4BTMSAT5 1 only as to Mr. Sattar's state of mind, knowledge, and intent. 2 THE COURT: Right. That list of exhibits, those 3 exhibits are received in evidence not for the truth of the 4 statements in the exhibits, but solely with respect to 5 Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent, and state of mind. Are some of 6 the transcripts Arabic to English and are some English, or are 7 they all Arabic? 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, only one transcript, AS-7T, 9 is an English conversation. The rest are Arabic. 10 THE COURT: To the extent that one was in English, 11 that's being received as an aid for the jury? 12 MR. FALLICK: Yes, your Honor. 13 Your Honor, at this point we would request permission 14 to read and publish to the jury Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 2 in 15 evidence. This is a telephone call dated October 25, 1999 at 16 3:29 and it is over telephone line 718-442-3513. I ask 17 Ms. Tricia LaFache to read the attributions of Mr. Sattar and 18 Mr. Paul Knepper read the attributions to Mr. Mustafa Hamzah. 19 May Ms. LaFache take the witness stand since she will 20 read all the attributions of Mr. Sattar? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 You may proceed. 23 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit Ahmed Sattar 24 Exhibit 2 in evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, given the time, this would SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9939 4BTMSAT5 1 be a convenient time. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to break today. 4 I've committed to break at 4:00 today, which is why this is a 5 convenient time to break because it is just about 4:00. 6 Let me also just explain a scheduling issue. We will 7 resume next Monday at 9:30. We will not sit Tuesday, 8 Wednesday, Thursday of this week because of an important 9 personal emergency that one of the jurors has. And so I just 10 wanted to let you know that we would not be sitting the rest of 11 this week and to assure you, as I always do, that I attempt to 12 accommodate all of the necessary needs of all of you and 13 everyone else. We are not going to be sitting for the rest of 14 this week and we will resume Monday at 9:30. 15 Because this is a long break, I reiterate, as I've 16 said before, with all of the force my words can convey, please, 17 don't talk about this case at all. Don't talk about it among 18 yourselves, don't talk about it when you go home over this long 19 week. Don't look at or listen to anything to do with the case. 20 If you should see or hear something inadvertently, please 21 simply turn away. 22 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 23 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, 24 and you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 25 Fairness and justice to the parties requires that you do that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9940 4BTMSAT5 1 Have a very good week and I look forward to seeing you 2 Monday at 9:30. 3 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 4 the jury room. 5 (Jury not present) 6 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, I thank you. I didn't know 7 where would be a convenient time in the transcript. 8 The only outstanding issue that I had that was given 9 to me was the issue with respect to the videotape and the 10 transcripts relating to September 11. I've read the 11 correspondence and I'm prepared to rule. 12 Defendant Sattar seeks to admit a videotape of news 13 clips from NBC and three transcripts of calls in which 14 Mr. Sattar expresses disapproval of the 9/11 attack on the 15 World Trade Center. The government opposes admission on the 16 grounds that the exhibits are irrelevant and to the extent 17 relevant should be excluded under Federal Rule of Evidence 403. 18 The government also argues that the transcripts 19 relating to the 9/11 attacks are hearsay. With respect to the 20 videotape, the Court has reviewed the NBC videotape. It is 21 plain that whatever relevance the videotape has is 22 substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice and 23 confusion. 24 Defendant Sattar argues that Arial Sharon's visit to 25 the Alaksa mosque and the subsequent violence between SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9941 4BTMSAT5 1 Palestinians and Israelis and, in particular, the killing of 2 some Palestinians by Israelis, including a twelve-year-old boy, 3 provides the context for the October 2000 fatwah. The 4 indictment itself states that the fatwah was issued "in 5 response to recent events in the Middle East," S1 indictment, 6 paragraph 30W. The defendant should be afforded the 7 opportunity to explain to some degree what those events were 8 and what the intent of his alleged participation in the fatwah 9 was. 10 Indeed, the defendant proposes to offer a transcript 11 in which he discusses those events in the context of explaining 12 the fatwah. However, that does not make the NBC videotape 13 admissible. The defendant is able to explain his intent in the 14 alleged participation in the fatwah and point to the 15 contemporaneous transcript with respect to his state of mind. 16 The videotape itself has nothing to explain the defendant's 17 intent or understanding of the fatwah. 18 While the defendant repeatedly states that the 19 videotape is relevant to his state of mind, he does not explain 20 how that videotape is relevant to a relevant state of mind. 21 There is no contention that the existence of violence and 22 killing in the Middle East any more than the existence of 23 alleged civil rights abuses is any defense to any of the 24 charges in this case. The import of the videotape is an effort 25 to engender sympathy based on the graphic depiction and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9942 4BTMSAT5 1 description of violence in the Middle East, including the 2 killing of a 12-year-old boy in his father's arms and the 3 killing of a nine-year-old boy. Indeed the videotape describes 4 in graphic details how disturbing the killing of the 5 12-year-old boy was and the videotape includes graphic 6 depictions of violence. Whatever relevance this videotape may 7 have to explaining the context of the fatwah is substantially 8 outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice and confusion. 9 The objection is therefore sustained. 10 The defendant seeks to admit transcripts of three 11 conversations in which he disapproved of the attacks on 9/11. 12 The transcripts have some relevance because they could be used 13 to support a defense contention that the defendant did not 14 intend to support terrorist violence. They could also be used 15 in an effort to counter government evidence with respect to the 16 defendant's state of mind, which included defendant's 17 possession of the statements attributed to the Sheikh that 18 urged followers to take numerous violent actions against 19 various American interests. The relevance of the transcripts 20 relating to 9/11 is not outweighed by the danger of unfair 21 prejudice. It is not a source of unfair prejudice or sympathy 22 that a person allegedly did not support the 9/11 attacks. The 23 government argues that just as the government would not be 24 allowed to offer evidence that a defendant supported the 9/11 25 attacks, a defendant should not be allowed to show that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9943 4BTMSAT5 1 defendant did not support the attacks. 2 But the situations are not comparable. The danger of 3 unfair prejudice against a person who would arguably support 4 the killing of the civilians in the World Trade Center cannot 5 reasonably be compared with the possible sympathy for a person 6 who does not support such attacks. Indeed, the relevance of 7 the testimony is not great. 8 On the other hand, the evidence does have some 9 relevance for the reasons that the Court has already explained. 10 The defendant should also be aware that the Court has 11 repeatedly instructed the jury when asked on numerous occasions 12 that Osama Bin Laden is not a conspirator in this case and that 13 none of the defendants is accused of having participated in any 14 of the events of 9/11. 15 So the relevance of statements by a defendant that the 16 defendant was not a supporter of the attacks on 9/11, as I've 17 said, does not have great relevance and does open up the issue 18 that the Court has repeatedly instructed the jury is separate 19 from the defendants, but for the reasons that the Court has 20 already explained, the evidence could be viewed as having some 21 relevance and that relevance is not outweighed by the danger of 22 unfair prejudice or confusion. Therefore, the transcripts have 23 some relevance and, as I've said, the relevance is not 24 substantially outweighed by the danger of unfair prejudice or 25 confusion. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9944 4BTMSAT5 1 With respect to the hearsay objection, the statements 2 of the defendant's then existing state of mind would be 3 admissible as an exception to the hearsay rule under Federal 4 Rule of Evidence 803(3). The Court has reviewed the 5 transcripts. There was no effort in the government's papers to 6 point to any specific statements in the transcripts that could 7 be -- that were specifically objectionable. If there are 8 specific instances of significance where the statements are not 9 statements of then existing state of mind but rather statements 10 of memory or belief to prove the facts remembered or believed, 11 the parties should either seek redactions of those portions or 12 raise those portions specifically. In the absence of any 13 specific objection, the thrust of the reason that the 14 transcripts are being offered, namely, for the then existing 15 state of mind, would be an exception to the hearsay rule, so 16 the transcripts would not be excluded in violation of the 17 hearsay rule. 18 So ordered. 19 Let me talk to you at the side bar about scheduling. 20 (Pages 9945-9951 SEALED by order of the Court) 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 9952 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 MOHAMMED YOUSRY 4 Cross By Ms. Baker 9801 5 Redirect By Mr. Ruhnke: . . . . . . . . . . 9882 6 Recross By Ms. Baker: . . . . . . . . . . . 9923 7 VINCENT SAWYER 8 Direct By Mr. Stern . . . . . . . . . . . . 9925 9 LESLIE YOUSRY DAVIS 10 Direct By Mr. Stern . . . . . . . . . . . . 9929 11 GOVERNMENT EXHIBITS 12 Exhibit No. Received 13 707A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9803 14 709A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9852 15 712A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9855 16 713A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9855 17 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 18 Exhibit No. Received 19 MY-300 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9885 20 AS-1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9935 21 AS-2T, AS-3T, AS-4T, AS-5T, AS-6T AS-7T . 9937 22 AS-8, AS-9 AS-10, AS-10T, AS-11T, AS-12T 9937 23 AS-13, AS-14T, AS-15, AS-16, AS-16T, AS-17 9937 24 AS-19, AS-19T . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9937 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300