10116 4C85SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 8, 2004 8 9:40 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10117 4C85SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 (At side bar) 3 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Good morning, your Honor. 4 Mr. Tigar is just walking in the door. 5 THE COURT: Good morning, all. 6 MR. PAUL: Good morning, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: I just wanted to let you know that the 8 jurors are a bit late. They're filling out their menus so 9 we're a little late beginning. 10 When I arrived this morning the jurors were getting in 11 the elevator so I reversed direction and left and waited, which 12 is why I'm delayed in meeting with you this morning. But I 13 wanted to bring that to your attention. 14 I also just wanted to make sure that everyone is ready 15 to proceed this morning. 16 MR. BARKOW: We are, your Honor. Except that there is 17 one matter that we wanted to raise to the Court's attention. 18 Ms. Baker is sick today and she's not going to be 19 coming in, at least during the jury portion of the case, and 20 the government is ready to go forward nonetheless. 21 We were going to request, because of that, that we 22 delay the beginning of the charge conference because Ms. Baker 23 is the person primarily responsible for the government's 24 position on that. It happens to coincide with the request that 25 I spoke about with Mr. Ruhnke that I think the defense was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10118 4C85SAT1 1 going to make. And I will let him speak to that to which we 2 have no objection, actually. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, in talking with the 4 government and all defense counsel, it may come as a surprise 5 but there are relatively few objections to the charge that the 6 Court has proposed and kindly given to us in draft. And I mean 7 relatively few. 8 I know you have made a reference at some point about 9 commas and quotation marks and semicolons and I don't think 10 that there is any of that in the offing. 11 What we propose is this. That we provide to your 12 Honor, in writing, no later than Friday, what objections there 13 are to the draft charge, that your Honor either rule on them on 14 the papers or if you want to hear from us further, hear from us 15 further on the charge. We are prepared today to file a reply 16 memorandum on the issue of the special verdict sentencing 17 elements memo. 18 But both the government and the defense think that's 19 an efficient way to do it and obviously we are making this 20 proposal in good faith and are not going to file 500 pages of 21 objections. There really are relatively limited objections. 22 THE COURT: What does it mean, really, relatively few? 23 The joy of a charge conference is that when people 24 make objections I'm able to listen to them and think about them 25 and look at the cases and ask people questions about them like, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10119 4C85SAT1 1 you know, is there any Second Circuit case that requires that I 2 give such a charge or questions like that and answers like 3 that. Answers to questions like that are helpful to me. 4 Now, of course I rely on your good faith when you tell 5 me that there are going to be relatively few but I have spent a 6 considerable length of time drafting the charge in response to 7 the original request to charge, the objections to those 8 requests. I mean, I have gone over each of them with enormous 9 care. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I think that's why there are so few 11 objections to them. 12 THE COURT: Then I got supplemental requests to 13 charge, of course, and objections to the supplemental request 14 to charge but I've had charge conferences in criminal cases 15 which have lasted literally less than half an hour. I have had 16 others which have gone considerably longer. 17 Now, if you really tell me that these are going to be 18 relatively few and I really can deal with them on the papers 19 and that's going to be an efficient way, then I will -- 20 MR. RUHNKE: I think that's the case, your Honor. 21 I mean, I have talked to my colleagues and I believe 22 that's -- I honestly believe that's the case. And if, upon 23 receiving the papers, your Honor decides that a half hour 24 charge conference would be an appropriate thing to conduct, we 25 can do that as well. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10120 4C85SAT1 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 What's the government's position? 3 MR. BARKOW: We have no objection and we agree with 4 Mr. Ruhnke's. 5 THE COURT: What's the government's view with respect 6 to whether the government's objections are going to be 7 relatively few? 8 MR. BARKOW: I think that ours are also going to be 9 relatively few. I can speak for myself and I think for 10 Mr. Morvillo, based on our review of the charge, we did not see 11 many things that we would pose objections to. 12 Ms. Baker is sick, as I said, and we haven't spoken 13 with her and she had not finished doing her own review of it so 14 I can't say definitively. 15 But our initial review of the charge was that we did 16 not see many things that we would be bringing to the Court's 17 attention. 18 THE COURT: Okay. When were you going get me your 19 written submission? 20 MR. RUHNKE: On the special verdict form? 21 MR. PAUL: No, on the objections or exceptions. 22 MR. RUHNKE: We propose by Friday. 23 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart will have her by close of 24 business tomorrow, your Honor. Well, let us say by 6:00 p.m. 25 tomorrow or 7:00 p.m. tomorrow. But anyway, on Thursday, so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10121 4C85SAT1 1 your Honor will have it. 2 THE COURT: Was Mr. Ruhnke speaking for you also when 3 he said relatively few? 4 MR. TIGAR: Absolutely. Just looking at our own 5 schedule of work I wanted to let your Honor know that we would 6 have it. I joined in that. We had a conference 7 Ms. Shellow-Lavine, and client, and I have been over the last 8 several days working and, yes, we are absolutely in agreement 9 with the proposal and with Mr. Ruhnke's evaluation of the 10 situation. 11 THE COURT: Let me ask another question. I don't want 12 to preempt. Mr. Ruhnke, what are you going to tell me on the 13 issue of the special verdict form? 14 I am aware of the need to rule on any requests that 15 have been made and exceptions before the summations, but one 16 question I have is whether it is necessary for me to reach a 17 resolution with respect to the special verdict issue on 18 sentencing elements or enhancements or whatever the appropriate 19 term is, I assume. 20 MR. RUHNKE: I can answer that I don't think so. I 21 don't think it is necessary that you reach those immediately 22 and there is a couple of pragmatic considerations. The supreme 23 Court is issuing one opinion today, apparently in -- 24 MR. BARKOW: And the last order date is Monday of next 25 week. So, if they don't decide it by then, then we will know SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10122 4C85SAT1 1 that we won't know until January. 2 MR. RUHNKE: My proposal would be at least to wait to 3 see if the Court says something about Blakely, or the Booker 4 Fanfan decisions the next two orders dates, today and Monday. 5 MR. BARKOW: We agree with that. 6 THE COURT: That's at least -- I accept that. The 7 next question would be even if the Supreme Court doesn't say 8 something, when would the timing of any decision really have to 9 be made? 10 The current government proposal is that nothing 11 essentially be said to the jury on the issue before there is an 12 initial jury verdict. 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we are taking -- Ms. Stewart 14 will be taking the position that this issue must be decided 15 before the case is submitted to the jurors. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. TIGAR: Or should be decided, I would say. 18 THE COURT: One of the things is that the government 19 proposal really leaves up in the air what, if any procedures, 20 would be used. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Right. That's not an insignificant 22 issue. The government talks in their proposal about, well, 23 they wouldn't object to further argument to the jury and in 24 thinking that through there might be room for further evidence 25 on those issues as well. And, again, those are up in the air SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10123 4C85SAT1 1 questions. 2 So, I don't have an answer to that at this point. 3 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart will be taking the what if 4 position, your Honor, in the letter we will be filing today, 5 setting out our position with respect to the issue your Honor 6 now raises. 7 THE COURT: The what if being, if there were special 8 verdict what would the procedure be? 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 10 MR. RUHNKE: But then I'm wondering if we can hold off 11 until all of that at least until Monday so we can give the 12 Court a chance to rule if it is going to rule before the end of 13 December. 14 THE COURT: Okay, sure. Great. 15 Anything else? 16 MR. MORVILLO: It is extremely warm in here. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher said -- 18 MR. PAUL: I brought it to Mr. Fletcher's attention 19 first thing this morning. 20 THE COURT: To lower the temperature. 21 MR. BARKOW: If we have time we wanted to raise 22 another question and if Mr. Fletcher comes back we can pick 23 this up at a later time. 24 In terms of planning, I don't think either side, right 25 now, is confident in terms of when the direct will end or when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10124 4C85SAT1 1 the cross will end, but the question that we had for the Court 2 is we still anticipate that our rebuttal case will take less 3 than two days and probably will fit in a day. 4 We were considering various things that we might do 5 during the rebuttal case, some of which includes a witness or 6 witnesses who would have to travel to come. I guess what we 7 wanted to ask the Court is if it turns out, for example, that 8 Mr. Sattar's testimony ends both direct and cross and redirect 9 or whatever, if it ends, say on Wednesday of next week or 10 something like that, would the Court want the government to 11 have its witnesses here on Wednesday, on Thursday? 12 The reason we ask is really simply that if we have the 13 witnesses come on, expecting to testify, perhaps on Wednesday 14 and they don't because the case doesn't end, then they would 15 probably have to stay until Monday, from Thursday to Monday. 16 It is basically a holiday weekend. 17 And we thought that for -- it is getting close to the 18 holidays and people, we will tell them to do whatever the Court 19 wants but we didn't want to have them come and then have a 20 situation where they weren't going to go or have them come 21 back, what have you. 22 THE COURT: You should continue to talk to each other 23 and the witnesses should certainly be here to begin any 24 rebuttal case after the defendants rest. 25 MR. BARKOW: Maybe my question, I didn't phrase it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10125 4C85SAT1 1 artfully enough, on the same day, the next day or -- 2 THE COURT: Same day. I mean, I don't want to lose 3 any more time. 4 I mean, if the defendants end it at noon I don't want 5 to break at noon for the rest of the day. If they finish at 6 3:00 I would rather not lose an hour and a half. 7 I know I'm going to be getting applications with 8 respect to what happens depending upon the date that you end. 9 I mean, you have already signaled that to me, right? If not 10 you, others. Others have. And I want to -- I don't want to 11 lose any time. 12 MR. BARKOW: We were just asking for our planning 13 purposes, your Honor. 14 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, just to take up on what your 15 Honor has left off with. Our understanding, from a side bar 16 that we had with your Honor previously, is that your Honor is 17 in agreement that you will not feel it appropriate to begin 18 summations if it means it is going to break up the summations 19 and the charge and the beginning of deliberations. 20 Am I misspeaking, your Honor? Because we are trying 21 to figure out our own scheduling. And, quite frankly, at this 22 point it seems as if in order to squeeze in all the summations 23 and the charge and begin deliberation, just know where to do 24 that before we shut down on the 23rd. 25 THE COURT: Well, I think what I said was I would try SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10126 4C85SAT1 1 not to break up the summations. If I went further than that I 2 may have misspoken. I just have to see where things break. 3 I don't think it would be a very good result to have a 4 summation on the 23rd and two more on the 29th and 30th and 5 then another one on January 2nd or whatever it is. 6 MR. RUHNKE: 3rd. 7 THE COURT: But if all of the summations can be given 8 the week of December the 20th, that might be very nice. 9 MR. PAUL: Optimistically, yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we are not sitting the 11 23rd, it is the 22nd. 12 MR. BARKOW: Right. I think one of the jurors said 13 they couldn't sit on the 23rd, I think. 14 MR. PAUL: Well, do I take from your Honor's response 15 that you would consider if we can squeeze in however many, all 16 the summations in one block of time before the 23rd, that you 17 would then consider breaking from the 23rd to the 28th to bring 18 the jury back for the charge and beginning of deliberations? 19 THE COURT: It is possible. It is possible. 20 MR. PAUL: That's what we are trying to schedule. 21 So it depends on the block of time we have before we 22 begin summations as to whether we can get them all in, is what 23 we're really looking at. 24 THE COURT: That's my current view. 25 What do the parties think? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10127 4C85SAT1 1 MR. RUHNKE: Perhaps we should talk. 2 MR. PAUL: We will all talk, your Honor, because I 3 think we have all had these discussions before but we would 4 like to present it as an agreed upon position and leave it to 5 the Court to decide. 6 THE COURT: All right. Are they ready yet? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: No. 8 THE COURT: They're not ready yet, anything else? 9 I don't think there is anything that requires it be 10 under seal, it is just a question of scheduling. 11 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10128 4C85SAT1 1 (In open court) 2 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has stepped 3 out very briefly. 4 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, should Mr. Sattar take the 6 witness stand? 7 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 8 (Witness takes the stand) 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10129 4C85SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 6 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 9 are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 11 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 13 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, I would like to briefly turn back to a couple 17 of areas that you testified about yesterday. Do you recall 18 testifying yesterday about the, having in your possession 19 copies of the Sheikh's three wills? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And do you recall that, in particular, I asked you about a 22 passage yesterday in the third will which the government also 23 played during its case? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. And do you recall that was Exhibit 2057, in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10130 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Government Exhibit 2057, in evidence? 2 A. Yes, I do remember. 3 Q. Did you have, in your possession, a copy of the statement 4 we talked about yesterday on an audio tape? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And was that tape seized by the government during its 7 search of April 9th? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. And how did the, that portion of the will get on an audio 10 tape? 11 A. That audio tape had on it a press interview with the 12 Sheikh, was an Arabic magazine called Al-Majala. I'm not quite 13 sure which year was that interview but also included on that 14 tape was that will. 15 That interview, I believe, happened around 1996, 1997. 16 I'm not quite sure exactly the time frame. All I know about 17 that interview, is that it was done with that magazine with the 18 Sheikh in prison, and Nabil Elmasry was the person who attended 19 that interview with the reporter. 20 During Nasser Ahmed's case, Nasser Ahmed's case was 21 held on secret evidence he was, and then later on we learned, 22 as his lawyers learned, that he was accused of taking a message 23 out from the Sheikh and the government said, you know, that it 24 resulted in killing of tourists in Egypt and stuff like that. 25 So, it was part of our defense to bring every, for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10131 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Nasser Ahmed to bring everything. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Basis. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Relevance. And I think it's far beyond 5 the scope of the question. 6 THE COURT: No, overruled. 7 BY MR. FALLICK: 8 Q. You may continue. 9 A. So, it was part of our defense to show that other people 10 visited the Sheikh, other people had messages from the Sheikh 11 and things like that. 12 That tape I took from Mr. Elmasry and I gave to the 13 defense lawyers. It was never used in the case because after 14 that the government confirmed that, you know, they were wrong 15 and the accusation that Nasser -- 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Move to strike. 19 THE COURT: I will strike the last sentence. 20 BY MR. FALLICK: 21 Q. Just, how did you get that tape in your possession? 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Hold on. I will strike the 23 sentence beginning with "because," the end of the sentence from 24 "because" on. 25 Go ahead. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10132 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 BY MR. FALLICK: 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, just if you can, did you have a copy -- did you 3 have a copy of that tape? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And how did you get a copy? 6 A. I got it from Nabil Elmasry and I gave it to the lawyers 7 and then after the case, Nasser Ahmed case was over, I got the 8 whole file as what I told you and it was in my possession. 9 Q. Do you recall yesterday I asked you what your position was 10 after the peace initiative was announced in 1997? 11 A. Yes, I remember that. 12 Q. Did your position, or did your opinion about the peace 13 initiative change after the attack at Luxor? 14 A. Yes, it did. 15 Q. And what was your opinion after the attack at Luxor? 16 A. I was in support of that peace initiative right after 17 Luxor. 18 What happened after Luxor, there was, as what I told 19 you, it was backed, it was -- people in Egypt, intellectuals, 20 college professors -- 21 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Religious scholars came out in force in 24 taking the attack -- I mean in condemning the attack and asking 25 questions and pleading with the government to have what they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10133 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 were calling at the time a commission, like what happened in 2 South Africa, the truth and reconciliation commission. 3 So, everybody was in support of that. They were 4 saying let's sit down, let's talk, let's reconcile, let's save 5 Egypt of what it's going through. 6 I was one of the people that, you know, I was 7 supporting this idea very, very much. 8 THE COURT: To the extent that the last question 9 includes what other people said, it's admitted solely with 10 respect to the witness' knowledge, intent, state of mind. 11 Q. Was your position after the attack at Luxor different than 12 your position after the peace initiative was first announced in 13 1997? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Yesterday I also asked you whether both Taha and Yunis 16 believed that you were able to visit and speak with the Sheikh. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A. Yes, I remember that. 19 Q. And did you tell them -- did you tell both of them that you 20 are able to speak and visit with the Sheikh? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Was that true? 23 A. No, it's not. 24 Q. Why did you tell them that? 25 A. Because simply I was told by the Sheikh, you know, to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10134 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 just -- 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Sustained, if offered for the truth. 4 Q. At the end of the day yesterday you were testifying about 5 the March 1999 visit. Do you recall that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you recall that you had sent a letter to the Sheikh? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And part of that letter concerned a request by Taha about 10 the Sheikh's position concerning continuation of the 11 cease-fire? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you receive a reply back from your letter, to your 14 letter? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. How did you receive the reply back? 17 A. In points. Mohammed Yousry told me that the Sheikh as, you 18 know, replied to your letter and this is what the lawyer 19 approved and he started dictating the point that the Sheikh 20 dictated to him and I copy it. 21 Q. And after you received the reply, what did you do with it? 22 A. I told Yunis about it. 23 Q. And did you tell anyone else about it? 24 A. I told Taha about it. And I told other people, you know, I 25 mean -- it was not just, you know, points -- I mean the letter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10135 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 was not just for Taha and Yunis. Taha and Yunis were part of 2 the letter. There were other points for other people, some for 3 his family, some for some friends here. 4 So, I just, you know, like gave everybody what, his 5 portion of the letter. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 7 Government Exhibit 1007X, in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall this conversation between 10 yourself and Mr. Hamza on March 9th, 1999 at 15:40? Is that 11 over your telephone line? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How did that telephone call come about? 14 A. Mustafa Hamza called me. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 3 of that transcript, 16 lines 7 through 9. 17 And you say: Of course he rejected it completely. I 18 have a... also regarding the... to be aware of what is going 19 on, all what it had been said in the last period, was conveyed 20 to him exactly the same. As it is. 21 What were you referring to when you said, "of course 22 he rejected it completely"? 23 A. I'm not quite sure. 24 Q. Do you know who the "he" is? 25 A. The Sheikh. I'm talking about the Sheikh here. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10136 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And if go down to lines 11 to 14 it says, eh, I mean, the 2 point of view that... of our brother, and the points of views 3 of the other brothers as it was uttered. Like, this person 4 said so and so, and the others said so and so. This was 5 conveyed to him and he responded.... 6 What were you referring to there? 7 A. I'm referring to when I say the point of view of that of 8 our brother, I'm talking about Rifa'i Taha here, the point of 9 view of Rifa'i Taha. 10 Q. His point of view concerning what? 11 A. Concerning the peace initiative and concerning the 12 complaints that he has about the peace initiative. 13 Q. On page 4 -- page 4 line 9, Hamza says: Can you send it by 14 fax. 15 What was your understanding of what Mr. Hamza was 16 asking for? 17 A. He is asking for the points that the Sheikh was sending to 18 Rifa'i Taha, if I can send it to him by fax. 19 Q. And at lines 20 to 21 Mr. Hamza says: Okay, can you read 20 it until you prepare the fax? Read it while you are preparing 21 the fax. 22 What is your understanding of what Mr. Hamza was 23 referring to? 24 A. He is referring to the points. He wants me to read it to 25 him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10137 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And at line 22 you say: Yes, it says, "with my respect to 2 your opinion, which is very good" -- and continues on page 5 -- 3 "but you have to give some time to the brothers who are in 4 prison. 5 What were you referring to there? 6 A. I am referring to Rifa'i Taha's opinion that, you know, it 7 was sent to the Sheikh. I'm referring to this is the Sheikh's 8 answer to Rifa'i Taha. This is not my -- 9 Q. What is -- 10 A. Huh? 11 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is saying? 12 A. The Sheikh is telling him, you know, that he likes what he 13 said but he has to give time -- he likes what he -- his opinion 14 is very good. Actually this is what he is saying to him. 15 Q. It goes on to say: There is no objection to have some 16 differences. They call for the halt of violence and you don't 17 agree. No objection on that. This conflict should be handled 18 in a soft and flexible manner. 19 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 20 saying there? 21 A. The Sheikh is saying to Rifa'i, you know, you are objecting 22 to the peace initiative. You are objecting to it but, you 23 know, there is no objection for you to object. 24 Q. You go on to say: It is possible that the brothers were 25 promised things by the government which we are not aware of. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10138 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding when the Sheikh uses the 2 word, the brothers, were promised things by the government? 3 A. The Sheikh is talking about people in prison in Egypt and 4 also Muntasir Zayat, the people who were involved with the 5 peace initiative that, the new administration that was taking 6 place in Egypt at the time that they might -- that probably 7 they were promised something by the Egyptian government. 8 Q. It then goes on to say, give them a chance and give the 9 right to, to inquire until something else is approved. Then we 10 can talk. 11 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 12 saying there? 13 A. The Sheikh is urging him or telling him to give those 14 brothers chance. Gives those people chance to complete, you 15 know, their work. And then, you know, later on inquire if, 16 unless something else is proved like, you know, the negotiation 17 is going no place further, so we will talk about it later. 18 Q. Then it says, no new charter, and nothing should happen or 19 be done without consulting me or informing me. 20 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 21 saying there? 22 A. One of Rifa'i Taha's complaints to the Sheikh is that the 23 Islamic Group leaders in prison were writing a new charter for 24 the group to replace the old charter that we wrote in the 19 -- 25 I'm not sure when, quite some time ago. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10139 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 So he was complaining about that and the Sheikh is 2 telling him that there should be no new charter without 3 consulting with him because the Sheikh, I believe took -- if 4 you look at the Islamic Group charter, it has the Sheikh's name 5 on it. It was done under his supervision, this is what the 6 charter said. 7 So the Sheikh is telling him there is no new charter 8 without his approval. 9 Q. On line 16 to 17 you say: Yes, the other... the other 10 thing, regarding the brothers of eh... which is [sighs] 11 concerning the two brothers of the party. 12 What were you referring to there? 13 A. I was referring to Gamal Soltan, S-O-L-T-A-N and Kamal 14 Habib, H-A-B-I-B. 15 Q. And who were they? 16 A. They were two people who, in Egypt, trying to form an 17 Islamic party. They send a letter to the Sheikh back in, I 18 believe it was in January 1999. And this letter was given to 19 Abdeen Jabara. 20 So, you know, to tell the Sheikh about it. And the 21 Sheikh gave an answer to the letter. 22 Q. On page 6 of the same transcript you say: Yes, yes. Eh... 23 [reading a letter] "to the consider at two brothers; peace and 24 mercy of God be on you. I do not agree for the following 25 reasons. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10140 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was saying 3 there? 4 A. This portion of the Sheikh's letter, it is addressed to 5 those two people and the Sheikh is addressing why he does not 6 agree about forming a political party, an Islamic political 7 party in Egypt. 8 Q. And is the remainder of that page the Sheikh's response 9 about the political party? 10 A. Yes. It's about 10 points, I believe. 11 Q. And what is your understanding of why the Sheikh did not 12 agree to the formation of political parties? 13 A. There is two opinions on political parties -- I mean two 14 Islamic opinions and political parties, one opinion that 15 support the existing of political party and the thinking of 16 multiple party system will be great for the people and there is 17 another opinion who rejected totally and they say that a 18 multiple party will corrupt society. 19 The Sheikh is supporting that letter opinion, or he 20 is, you know -- that's his opinion. He does not like a 21 political party system. 22 Q. Did you, yourself, have a position in 1999 about political 23 parties? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10141 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 the cover page of the Defendant Sattar's exhibits AS-19, in 2 evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize the cover page of this 5 document? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10142 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And what is this document? 2 A. It is a transcript that was taken of off my computer. 3 Q. The computer seized by the government? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This was on the hard drive of your computer? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Do you recall what this document -- this document is in 8 Arabic? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Do you recall what this document is about? 11 A. Yes. I downloaded this document from a website that, a 12 bulletin board that I used to write on, correspond with people, 13 you write an opinion and somebody else will answer you and then 14 you will answer him back. So I was doing that on this website. 15 And I downloaded this, and I saved it on my hard drive. 16 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display to the 17 jury Sattar Exhibit AS-19-T in evidence? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me just show you the cover page of AS-19-T 20 in evidence. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is that document? 23 A. It is a translation of the previous document that was -- 24 AS-19. 25 Q. And does this document contain your position concerning SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10143 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 political parties? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. What was your position? 4 A. My position, I was in support of multiple political party 5 system within an Islamic framework. 6 Q. Was your position different from the Sheikh's position? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did this document -- does this document touch on any other 9 subjects? 10 A. It does touch on -- I believe it does touch on democracy. 11 Q. When you say democracy, what do you mean by that? 12 A. Democracy in general, democracy as we know it here, 13 democracy as I believe it should be, and democracy within an 14 Islamic framework. One of the things that, you know, I was 15 trying to do is to say that democracy or the mechanism of 16 democracy can live in harmoney with Islam. This is what I was 17 trying to say in there. 18 Q. Was your position concerning democracy and Islam different 19 from that of the Sheikh's? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In what respect? 22 A. Well, the Sheikh -- the western democracy as it is, the 23 Sheikh will reject it completely. The mechanism of election 24 and choosing people, the Sheikh will reject this also. They 25 have, you know -- he will speak about the shura, to consult. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10144 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 But the consultation, it is a huge word which some people say 2 that consultation is an obligation. Others in Islam say it is 3 not. I am not quite sure what the Sheikh's position is on 4 this, but I know the word democracy does not, you know, click 5 very good with him. 6 Q. Did there come a time in September 1999 when another visit 7 was arranged with the Sheikh? 8 A. In September? 9 Q. September 1999. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, are we moving off of AS-19? 11 MR. FALLICK: Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if we could have an 13 instruction to the jury that statement of others in this 14 document are not offered for the truth of the matters, just for 15 the effect on Mr. Sattar. 16 MR. FALLICK: No objection. 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, any references in 18 the document to statements by others are not received for their 19 truth of any of the matters said, but only with respect to the 20 knowledge, intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 21 MR. FALLICK: May I proceed now, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 24 Q. Did there come a time that in September 1999 when another 25 prison visit was arranged with the Sheikh? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10145 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you know who went on that visit? 3 A. I believe it was Mr. Ramsey Clark and Mohammed Yousry. 4 Q. And the arrangements for the visit were the same as the 5 arrangements for all prior visit? The arrangements were the 6 same for all of the prior visits? 7 A. Same. Also, in September '99, there was another visit. 8 Q. Who made that visit? 9 A. That was, I believe, the Sheikh's wife, his brother, and 10 Mohammed Nabil Elmasry. 11 Q. Who made the arrangements for that visit? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And did you make the arrangements for the air fare and the 14 hotel and all the expenses? 15 A. In the family visit? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. The family visit, no. I made the arrangement for the air 18 fare from Egypt to Minnesota, but Nabil took care of the 19 arrangement for the hotel. 20 Q. For the attorney visit did you make the arrangements that 21 you had in the past to the other visits? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And for this visit were you asked by anyone to pass a 24 communication to the Sheikh? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10146 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And who asked you to pass that communication? 2 A. Taha was asking me to do that. 3 Q. And what was the communication that he asked to you pass to 4 the Sheikh? 5 A. Same, complaints -- the peace initiative, the results of 6 the peace initiative is not as good as it is expected. He is 7 complaining about people criticizing him for everything that he 8 say and whenever he writes an article people criticize him. 9 The usual complaint that we heard about. 10 Q. Did you prepare a letter for the Sheikh? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And do you recall what was in this letter in September 13 1999? 14 A. Yes. The usual greetings. People saying hello, other 15 people saying, you know, that they love him, news from the 16 mosques. And also included Taha's communication to him. 17 Q. What did you do with this letter? 18 A. I give it to either Mr. Yousry or Mr. Clark. I am not 19 quite sure. 20 Q. And did you receive a reply back to your letter? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. From whom did you receive a reply? 23 A. I got it from Mr. Yousry. 24 Q. And after you received the reply, what, if anything, did 25 you do with it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10147 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I did the usual. I called the people who the letter was 2 addressed to. And when Taha called me, I told him about his -- 3 his part of the letter. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 5 Government Exhibit 1029X in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall this conversation between you and 8 Mr. Taha on September 20, 1999 at 7:08? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did this conversation take place after the visit to the 11 Sheikh? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And did you call Mr. Taha or did he call you? 14 A. No. He called me. 15 Q. Let me refer you to page 2, lines 10 and 11. It says: We 16 were supposed to stay, bracket, coughing. We were supposed to 17 stay for two days there. 18 What were you referring to there? 19 A. I'm referring to myself as, you know, that I visit the 20 Sheikh, that I visited the Sheikh. 21 Q. On line 19 it says: A statement will be issued by the eh, 22 eh, by the lawyer today? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What were you referring to there? 25 A. I was told that Ramsey Clark is supposed to issue a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10148 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 statement about the Sheikh's dissatisfaction with the peace 2 initiative or the results of the peace initiative. 3 Q. Who told you that? 4 A. I was told by Mr. Yousry. 5 Q. Let me refer you to page 3, line 4 to 6: I mean about his 6 feelings of strong disappointment at the situation and the 7 necessity to review, bracket, stuttering, the situation in its 8 entirety, and that we, I mean the Islamic Group, is absolved of 9 anything. 10 What were you referring to in that statement? 11 A. I am referring to the Sheikh's points that were dictated to 12 me. 13 Q. What was your understanding of what the Sheikh was 14 referring to? 15 A. The Sheikh was referring to the peace initiative here. 16 Yes. I believe he was referring to the peace initiative. 17 Q. On line 8 to 10 it says: Uh. There is no uh -- I mean a 18 step has been taken for the general interest. And if the 19 general interest requires its cancellation, therefore it is to 20 be canceled. 21 That statement, is that your words or the Sheikh's 22 words? 23 A. This is the Sheikh's words. 24 Q. What is your understanding of what the Sheikh was referring 25 to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10149 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. The Sheikh was referring to the peace initiative. 2 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was 3 saying? 4 A. The Sheikh was saying, if the interest of the whole group 5 required to cancel the peace initiative, cancel the peace 6 initiative. If it requires to keep it, keep it. 7 Q. Which group are we talking about? 8 A. The Islamic Group. 9 Q. On page 5, lines 21 to 23. Mr. Taha first says: Okay. 10 The thing that will be issued, is it dictated by the man or you 11 will paraphrase it. 12 What is your understanding about what Mr. Taha is 13 saying? 14 A. Taha is asking about the statement in Arabic that's going 15 to be issued. Is it dictated word for word by the Sheikh, or 16 it is going to be paraphrased. 17 Q. And you reply: His words will supposedly be phrased. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What were you referring to there? 20 A. I'm referring to the Arabic statement of the Sheikh. 21 Q. When you say his words will supposedly be phrased, what are 22 you talking about in terms of phrasing? 23 A. The Sheikh is usually, if you know him, or you worked with 24 him, usually give you points, and tell you just put it in like 25 a frame. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10150 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. After you receive the Sheikh's responses in points, what do 2 you do with those points? 3 A. After I receive the Sheikh's responses in points, I read 4 it, and I wrote a statement in Arabic to -- I lost my train of 5 thought. I'm sorry. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I repeat the question to 7 Mr. Sattar? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. After you received responses back from the Sheikh in 10 points, what do you do with those points? 11 A. I phrase it in Arabic words. I put it in a statement. I 12 prepare it as a press release. 13 Q. Let me refer you to page 6, line 17 to 31: It only takes 14 one minute because we EH, bracket, continues reading. 15 What are you reading? 16 A. What -- 17 Q. Line 17 to 31. 18 A. This is the statement that I prepared. 19 Q. And you prepared that from what? 20 A. From the Sheikh's points. 21 Q. The Islamic Group has committed itself to the suspension of 22 military operations initiative which was launched two years ago 23 by the brothers from their jails, in spite of the Egyptian 24 government's continued killing of the innocent people and 25 conducting unjust military trials. This initiative was made to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10151 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 protect the Muslims and to unify all the lines to face the real 2 enemies of the nation. However, the initiative left some 3 people thinking that it was initiated out of weakness or an 4 abandonment of the fundamental principles of the group, which 5 is basically a Da'wa, Jihad group. 6 What is your understanding of the term Da'wa Jihad 7 group? 8 A. Da'wa is to teach. Jihad is a principle of Islam. There 9 is -- I have to explain the word Jihad. Jihad is a principle 10 of Islam. We say Islam is a foundation of everything in life 11 and Jihad is the highest point in Islam. Jihad could be by the 12 word, Jihad could be by hand, Jihad could be by intention, you 13 see something and you dislike. You hate it. And you just hate 14 it in your heart, that's a Jihad. Talking and expressing your 15 opinion against oppressor, that's a Jihad. Fighting in a 16 battlefield is Jihad also. 17 Q. The statement continues: The latest thing published in the 18 newspapers was about the Egyptian regime's killing of four 19 members of the group. This is -- this is enough proof that the 20 Egyptian regime does not have the intention to interact with 21 the peaceful initiative which aims at unification. I, 22 therefore, demand that my brothers, the sons of the Islamic 23 Group, do a comprehensive -- continues onto the next page -- 24 review of the initiative and its results. I also demand that 25 they consider themselves absolved from it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10152 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding of what the Sheikh was 2 saying there? 3 A. The Sheikh was just basically asking for them to reveal the 4 whole peace initiative. And, as I said before, or I told I 5 believe Taha before, if it is for the interest of the group, 6 keep it. If it is not for the interest of the group, just 7 cancel it. 8 Q. Was the Sheikh's message released to the media? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know why it wasn't? 11 A. Because at the same day I had a meeting with Mr. Ramsey 12 Clark that, as I told you, Mr. Yousry told me that Mr. Clark is 13 supposed to issue a press release. I went, I sat with 14 Mr. Clark and we spoke about it. Mr. Clark comes to the 15 conclusion that it is no good, the issue of press release. It 16 will hurt the Sheikh. It is going to isolate him more. The 17 government probably will come and cut him off from everybody. 18 So it is not in his best interest to release the statement to 19 the media. 20 Q. Even though the statement was not released to the media, 21 did you consider, in your opinion, the Sheikh's statement to be 22 a call for the Islamic Group to resume violence? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What, if anything, did you understand his statement to 25 mean? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10153 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I understand the statement to mean that the Sheikh wants a 2 review, the Sheikh wants everybody to have a dialogue and 3 see -- there was a huge bickering between two wings of the 4 group, one led by Rifa'i Taha and the other one led by the 5 people in prison and Muntasir Zayyat, and they are bickering 6 all the time on the results of the initiative. So he wants 7 this basically to end. 8 And it is also when the Sheikh is mentioning the 9 killing of the four people there, it was, in my opinion, when 10 this was going to be released to the media, it was going to 11 have an impact. It was going to show, you know -- to exert 12 pressure on the Egyptian government to respond positively to 13 the initiative. 14 Q. What was your understanding of the Sheikh's role within the 15 Islamic Group? 16 A. My understanding of the Sheikh's role is advisory role. He 17 just -- he advise and people sometimes listen and sometimes do 18 not listen. 19 Q. In your opinion or your knowledge, did he have any 20 decision-making capabilities within the Islamic Group? 21 A. I know from reading and from watching the videotapes that 22 Mr. Yousry spoke about during his testimony where the Islamic 23 Group's member or leadership sitting and telling about how they 24 take a decision and how they make a decision and stuff like 25 that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10154 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 I know that there is a shura council, which is a 2 consultation council that everything that they do, when they 3 come to a decision, everyone in this -- I am not quite sure how 4 many members there are of that council, but everyone has one 5 vote and they go with the majority. If the majority decide one 6 thing, that is what happened. And if they decide it is not 7 going to happen, it is going to stop. So I know that they go 8 with the majority rule. The Sheikh, I also know that he was 9 the head of the shura council, but he has only one vote like 10 anybody else. 11 Q. Did you yourself have any decision-making ability or 12 capacity within the Islamic Group? 13 A. No. I'm not even a member. 14 Q. How would you define your role in 1999 and 2000 in relation 15 to the Islamic Group? 16 A. I was going between them and the Sheikh. Sometimes between 17 them and the people inside and the people outside Egypt, also. 18 Q. Did that role ever change over time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why did you put yourself in that role? 21 A. Because I did care. I cared about my Muslim brothers. I 22 do have a bad habit -- I don't know if it is a good habit or 23 bad habit, but if I am able to help anybody who I think is in 24 need, I will step forward and I will do it. And I thought that 25 I could help people who were under bad circumstances, people SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10155 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 who have been in prison for so many years, people who have been 2 tortured. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. People who are yearning for their freedom. And I thought 6 that I could do that. 7 Q. Did there come a time in February 2000 when another legal 8 visit was arranged with the Sheikh? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, again, do you know who went on that visit? 11 A. It was Mr. Jabara and Mohammed Yousry. 12 Q. Who was Mr. Jabara? 13 A. Abdeen Jabara was one of the Sheikh's lawyer. 14 Q. Did you know Mr. Jabara? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Again, were the same arrangements made by you for this 17 trip? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Prior to this visit, did anyone ask you to relay a 20 communication to the Sheikh? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And who asked you? 23 A. The usual people, you know, they say hello, the news from 24 the mosque, Taha also included. 25 Q. What was Taha's request? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10156 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Taha requests that when the Sheikh issued or when the 2 Sheikh, on his previous message, when he asked for review, he 3 was reviewing the initiative. And also I believe Mustafa Hamza 4 at that time was reviewing the initiative. So there was a 5 review that was faxed to me through, you know -- what the 6 initiative resulted; and if the initiative is canceled, the 7 ramification of it; if the initiative is in place, what the 8 people will gain from it. I wrote a letter to the Sheikh and I 9 included that page or that review to it. 10 Q. Again, do you recall who you gave your letter to? 11 A. I am not sure. Either Yousry -- I believe Mohammed Yousry. 12 I am not quite sure. 13 Q. Do you recall if you received a reply back to your letter? 14 A. No. 15 Q. No, meaning what? 16 A. No reply. I received just words, you know -- 17 Q. You know why you did not receive a reply back to this 18 letter? 19 A. Because Abdeen Jabara refused to read the letter. 20 Q. Do you know why Mr. Jabara refused to read the letter? 21 A. I was never told why. He just -- 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we are about to begin 23 another visit. It is a good time for a break. 24 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take ten 25 minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10157 4C8MSAT2 1 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 2 don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an 3 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have 4 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 5 begin your deliberations. 6 See you soon. 7 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 8 jury room. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: The witness may step down. 11 One item. Have a seat just for a second. 12 I sustained an objection to a question which was: 13 What did the Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman say to Mr. Sattar? That 14 was in connection with the questions of why he told Mr. Taha 15 and Mr. Hamza that he had spoken with the Sheikh or was able to 16 speak with the Sheikh. And I sustained the objection and said: 17 If offered for the truth, what Sheikh Rahman said offered for 18 the truth is hearsay. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I am going to go back as to 20 Mr. Sattar's state of mind why he said that. It comes out 21 later. 22 THE COURT: I just wanted to point it out. I was 23 sustaining it offered for the truth, but not if there was a 24 nonhearsay purpose such as something is said and he does 25 something because of what is said to him. And I don't know if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10158 4C8MSAT2 1 what is said has such truthful content that you can't 2 distinguish the fact of what was said from the truth of what 3 was said so that there is a 403 objection. I just point that 4 out. 5 Did you want to make any proffer with respect to that? 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I may get back to that 7 later. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 See you shortly. 10 (Recess) 11 (Page 10159 SEALED by order of the Court) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10160 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Mr. Sattar is on 2 the stand and let's bring in the jury. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I may need a short break 4 before we break for the lunch hour today. 5 THE COURT: That's fine. 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 8 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 9 Mr. Fletcher? 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 11 you are still under oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 14 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Was there another visit arranged with the Sheikh for May 17 19th and May 20th? 18 A. May 19 and May 20th? 19 Q. Of 2000? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall who went on that visit? 22 A. Was Lynne Stewart and Mohammed Yousry. 23 Q. Were the same arrangements made for, as was with the prior 24 visits? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10161 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Prior to this visit, did anyone ask you to relay a 2 communication to the Sheikh? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who was that? 5 A. The usual people. 6 Q. Who are the usual people? 7 A. Taha, friends of the Sheikh's, some of his kids, his 8 family. 9 Q. And do you recall what Mr. Taha's message was? 10 A. The usual complaints about, you know, his -- complaint 11 about the criticism of the people in Egypt of him, you know, 12 when every time he issues a statement, especially, but this 13 time he was complaining more because he issued a statement and 14 they thought it was harsh criticizing the Egyptian government 15 about some kind of demonstrations in Egypt. He wants, you 16 know, the Sheikh to be more clear on his position, you know, 17 what he wanted to do. And he, you know, he's asking for -- 18 clearly he is asking for moral support. He is asking the 19 Sheikh just I want you on my side. 20 That's what he was trying to do. 21 Q. Like in the prior prison visits, did you prepare a letter? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was that letter in English or in Arabic? 24 A. It's in Arabic. 25 Q. Whom did you give that letter to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10162 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 A. I give it -- I'm not sure. Either Yousry or Ms. Stewart. 2 I'm not -- 3 Q. And, did you receive a reply back to your letter? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. And in what form did you receive a reply back? 6 A. Same thing. You know, it was dictated to me, I wrote it 7 down like the previous visits. 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 9 Government Exhibit 1707X? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that 1707X is the second 12 transcript to the videotape that was shown here concerning the 13 prison visit on May 19th? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 27. 16 Page 27, line 11 through 13. 17 And Mr. Yousry says, [pointing to the paper] we have 18 about half an hour left. [Holds the same paper up, flips it up 19 and puts it down] I want to read the letter to you because it's 20 about two pages. 21 Mr. Sattar, you were in the courtroom when the 22 government played the videotape? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you know what letter Mr. Yousry was referring to here? 25 A. I believe he was referring to my letter to the Sheikh. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10163 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me refer you to page 28, the same transcript, lines 12 2 through 17 and Mr. Yousry said, you asked about during the 3 former visit, I will try my best to get you the answer for 4 them. 5 As for the family in Egypt, they are all fine. As for 6 Mohammed and Ahmed, Mohammed had a baby, he named him Omar. We 7 pray God to bless him and grant that this name leads him to 8 follow -- 9 What is your understanding what Mr. Yousry is reading? 10 A. He is reading my letter to the Sheikh. 11 Q. And this passage concerns what? 12 A. This passage concerns the Sheikh's family. Mohammed is his 13 older son, Ahmed is his older son and the baby is the Sheikh's 14 grandson. 15 Q. Did all of your letters that you sent to the Sheikh contain 16 information about his family? 17 A. Yes. 18 90 percent or 85 percent -- at least 85 percent of my 19 letters to the Sheikh concerning his family, the mosque, the 20 Muslim community here, what we are doing, we are having some 21 study circles and we -- give him just, you know, regular -- 22 just regular news. 23 Q. Let me refer to you page 31, this will be lines 12 through 24 15, and it is Mr. Yousry saying -- 25 A. Just -- Mr. Fallick? I cannot see. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10164 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Line 12 through 15, and says: [Mr. Yousry continues 2 reading]: Attached to this letter is an article written by the 3 former consul of Egypt to New York, Abdullah sent it to me from 4 Egypt. [hand motion to Rahman] That is the one that I read to 5 you, sir. 6 What is your understanding about what Mr. Yousry is 7 referring to here? 8 A. He is referring to an article that was published -- not an 9 article actually, it was a letter from his son Abdullah, and he 10 was talking about -- about an Egyptian ambassador. He was 11 general counsel to the Egyptian consulate here in New York and 12 he was bad-mouthing the Sheikh in Egypt. 13 Q. And did you attach that article to your letter? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And Mr. Yousry is just reading what you attached to that 16 letter? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. I refer you to page 33 and let me go back to page 31. 19 Go to page 33, I'm sorry, and it is the bottom of the 20 page, the lines 30 to 32, it reads: Mr. Yousry again reading 21 in [reading] -- 22 And again, Mr. Sattar, is it your understanding 23 Mr. Yousry is reading your letter to the Sheikh? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. "My communications increased during the past year. I have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10165 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 semi-constant contact with Abu Yasir, Abu Hazim, Abu Mus'ab, 2 Abu Harith, Abu Ithak, Abu Khalid -- and on page 34, beginning 3 on top, Abu Mustafa and many other brothers, thank God. If 4 there is anything, please notify. 5 Mr. Sattar, who are these men who you have just 6 described, talked about? 7 I'm sorry, who are these men you have just written 8 about? 9 A. All of them or most of them beside Abu Nasser and Abu 10 Hazim, these are all people that they knew the Sheikh. Some of 11 them reside in Europe or let's say, you know, most of them 12 reside in Europe except for, I believe, Abu Yasir and Abu Hazim 13 which Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha and Abu Hazim is Mustafa Hamza. 14 Q. And when you say you have, when you wrote in your letter 15 that you had semi-constant contact with him, what were you 16 referring to? 17 A. I was referring to I have contact with those people. Some 18 of them I have direct contact and some of them I don't have 19 direct contact with. 20 But I know those people are, they know the Sheikh and 21 the Sheikh knows of them. 22 Q. Were they calling you or were you calling them? 23 A. I never called any one of them, actually. They always call 24 me. 25 Q. On lines 2 through 14, it just continues: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10166 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Number ten. Abu Yasir called me the day before 2 yesterday. He still asks for Your Honor's moral support to his 3 position, particularly at this time after three years have 4 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 5 was issued. I had explained to you, sir, his viewpoint before. 6 Back then, you asked him to commit himself, and to give his 7 brothers a chance. Up 'till now the man is committed but I 8 don't think he will be able to remain quiet longer than that. 9 I sent to you, sir, the statement he issued on Al-Azhar 10 University incidents, which exposed to him the criticism of 11 some brothers, eh, particularly, because of its strong language 12 [hand motion to Stewart]. 13 What were you referring to in your letter in that 14 part? 15 A. I am referring to what Rifa'i Taha told me to tell the 16 Sheikh and I am just putting a few other things, you know, that 17 they are to explain. You know, what the men want, what Rifa'i 18 Taha wants from the Sheikh. 19 Q. What was your understanding that Rifa'i Taha wanted from 20 the Sheikh? 21 A. It is so clear here that all I wanted -- all he wants is 22 his moral support and to stop the criticism. 23 Basically you know, they want to just to shut him up, 24 the other side, the other side wants to shut Rifa'i Taha up so 25 he is complaining about this and he is asking the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10167 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 moral support. 2 Q. Who is the other side? 3 A. The other side is the people in prison, Egypt, the Islamic 4 Group leaders in prison, Muntasir Al-Zayat. Now I know it is 5 Mustafa Hamza also. 6 Every one of them wanted Rifa'i to shut up. 7 Q. And what did they want him -- what was your understanding 8 of what they wanted him to keep quiet about? 9 A. My understanding, it was the deal between them or the 10 Egyptian government did not like the way that Rifa'i was 11 talking. You know, he is coming out, you know, and attacking 12 the government in harsh words, saying, you know, things that 13 the government does not like, and they just wanted him -- you 14 know, they felt that he was spoiling their, what they were 15 trying to do. 16 Q. Let me refer you to page 35 and this will be here on lines 17 6. Mr. Yousry says: 18 She says it is easy to say so, sir, but when we sit to 19 eat we eat a lot [laughs] all right, Sir, um... [resumes 20 reading]. 21 What is your understanding what Mr. Yousry is resuming 22 to read? 23 A. He is resuming reading my letter, my letter to the Sheikh. 24 Q. "Which exposed him to strong language, criticism of some 25 brothers, though he didn't say anything other than what is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10168 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 supposed to be said. He therefore asks for your 2 straightforward opinion." 3 "He" meaning who? 4 A. Rifa'i Taha. 5 Q. "Sir, especially that you know that the man has his massive 6 weight among many brothers; and that if the regime worries 7 about anyone, it is Abu Yasir." 8 Who is Abu Yasir? 9 A. Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha. 10 Q. When you wrote in your letter that the man has his massive 11 weight among many brothers and that if the regime worries about 12 anyone it is Abu Yasir, what were you referring to? 13 A. I am referring to Abu Yasir was a very well known leader of 14 the Islamic Group to the regime. If the regime worries, if the 15 regime is afraid of anybody they are afraid of Rifa'i Taha. 16 Q. Who is the regime? 17 A. The Egyptian regime. If the Egyptian regime is afraid of 18 anybody they are afraid of Rifa'i Taha. 19 Q. Why would they be afraid of Rifa'i Taha? 20 A. Because during the war period that I was talking about from 21 1990 until 1997, Rifa'i Taha is the one who was leading this, 22 he was the leader of the Islamic Group during this period of 23 time. 24 So he actually -- so the regime knew what he can do. 25 So they are afraid of him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10169 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 One more thing that I want to add to this. On the 2 previous segment that you showed me, when I was saying to the 3 Sheikh that Rifa'i Taha is committed, I meant that he is 4 committed to the peace initiative. He is not going to do 5 anything that's out of the line of the Islamic Group, but he is 6 not going to be committed for a long time. He will speak out. 7 What I meant by speaking out, that he will expose some 8 of the Islamic Group leaders in Egypt. He will speak against 9 them. 10 Q. You wrote in your letter that the Egyptian regime would be 11 worried about Abu Yasir? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you understand that when he was the leader of the 14 Islamic Group in the early '90s that he authorized and 15 committed acts of violence? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you know those acts of violence included murder? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you knew that at the time that you were writing this 20 letter? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you knew that at the time you were speaking with him? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Your letter goes on to say: 25 I had told him and the other brothers about your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10170 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 request, sir, concerning the evaluation of the initiative. He 2 had the same opinion. It is clear, though, that those who push 3 to go by the initiative are the brothers in Liman, even though 4 they are very few. 5 Who are the brothers in Liman? 6 A. The Liman -- 7 Q. Sorry. 8 A. -- it is a famous prison in Egypt. So, the brothers in 9 prison. 10 Q. "And the [articulating as he corrects himself] no, the 11 brothers in Liman and very few others outside. Abu Yasir is of 12 the opinion that the group has to well utilize the initiative 13 paper. 14 What did you mean when you wrote to the Sheikh that 15 Abu Yasir is of the opinion that the group has to well utilize 16 the initiative paper? 17 A. Abu Yasir was in the opinion of to use the initiative card 18 to exert pressure on the government to come to a political 19 solution. Use the thread that, you know, the initiative would 20 be cancelled. The initiative, you know, it is not working so 21 talking in the newspapers against the initiative and utilize 22 him. 23 Basically, he was a bad boy. He is a bad guy. Use -- 24 he said it so many times in so many conversations. Use me as 25 the bad boy. Use me as a foil, all right, so he can get some SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10171 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 results from the Egyptian government. 2 Q. The letter continues: 3 The least to do is to allow media escalation and to 4 demonstrate disgust at the way the situation ended up, 5 especially that the most they allow now is some improvement 6 in -- 7 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Fallick. I'm not following you. 8 Q. I'm sorry. I'm at line 20. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. And we will start again, "The least," do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. "The least to do is to allow media escalation and to 13 demonstrate disgust at the way the situation ended up, 14 especially that the most they allow now is some improvement in 15 prisons, permission of visits, and release of some prisoners. 16 What were you referring to in those lines? 17 A. I'm referring to what Rifa'i Taha is asking, is asking to 18 escalate in the media, is asking, you know, to continue what he 19 has been doing criticizing the government and expressing his 20 opinion, playing the role of a tough guy. 21 And especially, you know, in his opinion that, you 22 know, he said that the results of the initiative was not enough 23 and in his opinion or in, through the calls there is over 24 35,000 or 40,000 Egyptian prisoners that -- and in prison with 25 no charges. He was asking for, to release all of them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10172 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Or, when people initiated this initiative they were 2 under the impression that, you know, these prisoners will be 3 released. None of this having, a few, about 2500 prisoners at 4 the time were released and that's it. 5 Q. What was your understanding of Rifa'i Taha's desire to 6 escalate in the media? 7 A. To use threats that the, they're going to go back to the 8 pre-Luxor period to use, for instance, that the Egyptian 9 government is not responding in a positive way to the Islamic 10 Group initiative. 11 So, you know, utilizing the media, you know, to 12 communicate his point of view to the Egyptian government. 13 Q. Let me refer you now to page 36 of the transcript and we 14 will start on lines 12 -- lines 14 to 21. 15 Do you see that, Mr. Sattar? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It says: 18 Brother Abu Yasir and many other brothers think that 19 all of these things need you to have a more forceful position, 20 no objection to the formation of a team that calls for 21 cancellation of the initiative or makes threats or escalates 22 things. Please, your Eminence, say your opinion about this. 23 Dictate some points. We can announce it in a press conference 24 with Lynne. And if you don't want to announce them, please let 25 Lynne know that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10173 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 What were you referring to -- what was Mr. Taha 2 referring to when he said, "no objection to the formation of a 3 team that calls for cancellation of the initiative or makes 4 threats or escalates things"? 5 A. He is basically telling the Sheikh that he does not have 6 any objection to work with some other people, you know, other 7 people from the Islamic Group to form a team from both sides to 8 call to, for cancellation of the initiative or even threat to 9 go back to escalate things or to go back to the pre-1997 10 period. 11 Q. Was the initiative ever cancelled? 12 A. No. 13 Q. When you, in your letter when you write, dictate: Please, 14 your Eminence, say your opinion about this, dictate some 15 points. We can announce it in a press conference with Lynne 16 and if you don't want to announce them, please let Lynne know 17 that. 18 What were you referring to there? 19 A. I am asking the Sheikh to answer Rifa'i Taha. If he wants, 20 it's up to him, state your opinion. If your opinion is still 21 in support of this, of the initiative, I'm going to go out, I'm 22 going to basically, you know, relay the message and, you know, 23 you are in support. 24 If you want it, if you want to support Rifa'i's 25 position and use a tough tone, I will do, I will take it out. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10174 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 And, you know, if you don't want me to take it out we can, as 2 usual, you know, you could tell Lynne to have a press 3 conference like what Ramsey Clark did before and announce the 4 things. 5 Q. Did you care one way or the other whether there was a press 6 conference? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you care one way or the other what the Sheikh's 9 position was? 10 A. No. To me it doesn't matter what the Sheikh's position 11 was. 12 MR. FALLICK: May I have a moment, your Honor, to 13 speak with Mr. Paul? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (Counsel conferring) 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me show you lines 23, 24, and it just says: 17 Number Eleven: He wrote it at night. He says, sir, that he is 18 doing a business project, it is a good one and so, eh. 19 Again, do you know what Mr. Yousry is translating 20 about number eleven? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that part of your letter? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does that go back to some personal matters with the Sheikh? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10175 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Just one second, Mr. Fallick, before we go to number 2 eleven. I just want to also clarify one thing about the 3 Sheikh. Whatever the Sheikh was going to say whether I agree 4 with or I don't disagree with, I was going to send it out the 5 way it is. There is no -- I have no concern whatsoever of the 6 Islamic Group policy. 7 Q. Do you know if Ms. Stewart cared one way or another about 8 the Sheikh's response? 9 A. She doesn't -- 10 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. Foundation. Stricken. 12 Q. Prior to this prison visit, did you discuss this letter 13 with Ms. Stewart? 14 A. I told her I was sending a letter to the Sheikh. 15 Q. Did you discuss the details of the letter? 16 A. The details, no. Not in details. 17 Q. Do you know if she knew who Rifa'i Taha was? 18 A. I never spoke to her or mentioned the name Rifa'i Taha or 19 Abu Nasser or Mustafa Hamza or Yasir Al-Sirri or any name that, 20 you know, besides Muntasir Al-Zayat to her. Never mentioned. 21 Q. Now, I believe you testified you did receive a reply to 22 your letter from the Sheikh? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1710X? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10176 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is the cover page to the videotape of the 3 prison visit dated the second day, May 20, 2000. 4 Do you recall seeing that videotape played in the 5 courtroom? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. I refer you to page 48, lines 7 through 9, and it says 8 "Abdel Rahman, okay [dictating] Brother Muntasir [pause] what 9 use is the initiative [pause], where we declared the halt of 10 violence [pause] hah? 11 Who was the Sheikh dictating a letter to? 12 A. Muntasir Al-Zayat. 13 Q. Why was he dictating a letter to Muntasir Al-Zayat? 14 A. Muntasir has, through the '80s and the '90s become a very 15 well known figure in the Islamic movement. He has a 16 relationship, a friendly relationship with the Sheikh. He was 17 the Sheikh's lawyer also in Egypt taking care of his family 18 business and his legal problems in Egypt. 19 Q. Other than the Sheikh dictating a letter to Muntasir 20 Al-Zayat, do you recall whether he dictated a letter to anyone 21 else? 22 A. To Abu Yasir. Rifa'i Taha. 23 Q. Now, following your, following the may visit, you testified 24 you received a response back to your letter? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10177 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Who did you receive the response back from? 2 A. The usual. 3 Q. What does that mean, the usual? 4 A. I saw Yousry and he says this was approved and this is what 5 the Sheikh wants you to have; dictated the thing to me; I wrote 6 it down. 7 Q. After you wrote it down, what did you do with the Sheikh's 8 response? 9 A. I kept it for a while with me. I did not do anything with 10 it, you know, for a little period of time because I was -- I 11 was told, you know -- I mean that part of the letter to 12 Muntasir Al-Zayat and to Yasir, I did not tell anybody about it 13 right away. I just kept it with me for a few days because I 14 was told also that there is going to have a press conference 15 and she is going to release another, a statement by the Sheikh 16 that the Sheikh told her to announce a few points and she was 17 going to do that. 18 Q. What were you told that Ms. Stewart was going to announce? 19 What were you told that Ms. Stewart was going to announce to 20 the press? 21 A. That the Sheikh's dissatisfaction of the peace initiative 22 results and is he going to withdraw his support of the peace 23 initiative. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. Mr. Yousry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10178 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Now, after sitting on the response for a couple days, what, 2 if anything, did you do with it? 3 A. What did I? Well, I spoke to Muntasir Al-Zayat first and I 4 spoke to him about it for -- I'm not quite sure how many days 5 after, but I spoke to Muntasir about it. 6 Q. And did you speak to anyone else? 7 A. Yes, the same day that, after I finished with Muntasir a 8 few hours later I get a phone call from Yunis. 9 Q. Other than Yunis, did you speak to anyone else? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who? 12 A. After I told Yunis about it I read the Sheikh's response to 13 him. I told Rifa'i Taha, he called me, I think, you know, a 14 couple of days after that and I told him about it. 15 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 16 Government Exhibit 1094X, in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. FALLICK: I will wait one minute until 19 Mr. Morvillo finds his copy of it. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you. 21 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1094X, in evidence, is dated 22 May 29th, 2000, at 18:10, and this is a conversation between 23 you, Mr. Taha and Salah Hashim. 24 Do you recall this conversation? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10179 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Was this conversation after the May visit with the Sheikh? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And first, who was Salah Hashim? 4 A. Salah Hashim is, if there is somebody to be called the 5 founder of the Islamic Group it is Salah Hashim is the founder 6 of the Islamic Group. 7 He founded the Islamic Group. He lived in Egypt. He 8 was arrested for a little period of time and then, you know, 9 released and renounced politics and everything. 10 And he stayed home for a long period of time until he 11 actually initiated -- or he was -- him and Muntasir Al-Zayat 12 were the architects of the peace initiative. 13 Q. Let me refer to you page 2 of this transcript, the first 14 line, 9, and you say: Yesterday, I called Muntasir. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What are you referring to there? 17 A. I am referring to Muntasir Al-Zayat. 18 Q. On lines 15 to 16 you say: Next day in the morning, today, 19 in the morning, at dawn, your brother called me. 20 First, who are you speak to go? 21 A. I'm speaking to Rifa'i Taha. 22 Q. When you say you brother called me, who are you referring 23 to? 24 A. I'm referring to Yunis. 25 Q. Then, lines 18 it says he said what is going on. I told SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10180 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 him, by God, this is what we got. 2 What are you referring to there? 3 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's letter to Muntasir and Abu 4 Yasir. 5 Q. And the letter concerns what? 6 A. The peace initiative. 7 Q. And then at the bottom at line 22 to -- 20 to 22, you say: 8 He said how come, and these things should not be told to the 9 people outside and should not be told to the media. I told him 10 that I can't stop anyone from expressing his opinion. 11 Who were you referring to when you said "he said"? 12 A. I'm referring to Yunis. 13 Q. In your understanding, what is that? 14 A. Yunis did not want the letter to go outside to the media. 15 Q. And which letter is that? 16 A. The Sheikh's letter to Muntasir. 17 Q. On page 3 of the same transcript at line 7 through 9 it 18 says: But the lawyer we hold a... she is going to meet some 19 reporters from Arabic newspapers, and she will announce the 20 current point of view. The summary of the point of view... 21 What are you referring to there? 22 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's point of view. 23 Q. And who is the lawyer? 24 A. Ms. Stewart. 25 Q. On page 4 you say, at line 4: They are not allowed to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10181 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 subdue this point of view... 2 Taha replies: Eh. 3 What are you referring to there? 4 A. I'm not quite sure. 5 Q. It goes on in lines 6 and 7, you say: And the result of 6 the... the... that nothing good came out of this initiative and 7 it did not get any results. 8 What are you referring to? 9 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's point of view, what the 10 Sheikh said, you know, and to Ms. Stewart and, in that visit. 11 Q. Well, you are referring to the Sheikh's response to your 12 letter, is that correct? 13 A. The Sheikh's response. I'm not sure that I'm talking about 14 the letter exactly. I think I'm talking about, in general 15 term, about the Sheikh's understanding, the Sheikh's point of 16 view, the dissatisfaction of the whole situation. 17 Q. And this statement that you sent to Mr. Muntasir, do you 18 recall what was in that statement? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was in that statement? 21 A. The Sheikh's, the dissatisfaction with peace initiative, 22 the Sheikh's asking to escalate in the media, the Sheikh's 23 asking if the Islamic Group can still do some work. 24 Q. In your letter to Mr. Muntasir was your letter to 25 Mr. Muntasir different from what you were telling Yunis and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10182 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Taha? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did there come a time that you had a conversation with 4 anyone concerning releasing the Sheikh's opinion to the press? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And when was that? 7 A. That was -- I had so many conversations, actually, about 8 releasing the Sheikh's opinion to the press. I had 9 conversation with Mr. Yousry, I had conversation with Lynne. I 10 had -- I attended conversation with Mr. Clark. 11 We were all talking about, you know, if there is any 12 ramification, if this is going to hurt the Sheikh in any way. 13 If this is going to isolate the Sheikh more. If this is going 14 to cut all contacts with him. 15 And everybody agreed -- 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. Was there agreement that a statement should be released to 19 the press concerning the Sheikh's opinion? 20 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Leading. Same 21 objection as well. 22 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 23 Q. Were arrangements made to release a statement to the press? 24 A. The arrangement was made to call some reporter and just 25 tell him, you know, what the Sheikh wants to say, this is the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10183 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Sheikh's opinion on this. And that's it. 2 Q. And who made those arrangements? 3 A. Call the reporter, I did call the reporter. 4 Q. And who was the reporter? 5 A. It was Esmat Salaheddin. 6 Q. Why did you call him? 7 A. He was -- Esmat Salaheddin was a Cairo-based reporter for 8 Reuters. Reuters, is, in my opinion, a reputable news 9 organization. I didn't want the Sheikh's opinion to go to an 10 Arabic newspaper first and then they will add their things to 11 it. 12 So I wanted just, you know, some news agency that you 13 can trust to be sent to. 14 Q. And was the call made to him? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And how did that come about? 17 A. I went to Ms. Stewart's office, I sat with her there. I 18 called -- I used my phone card to call Mr. Salaheddin. I spoke 19 to him for about a minute introducing him to Ms. Stewart and 20 she took the call from there. 21 Q. Do you recall what Ms. Stewart said to Mr. Salaheddin? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What does she say? 24 A. I believe she told him about, that the Sheikh is, was 25 withdrawing his support of the peace initiative and that he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10184 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 dissatisfied with everything that's going on there, or what the 2 Egyptian government is doing to the people there in Egypt. 3 Q. And do you know if Mr. Salaheddin wrote an article 4 concerning the Sheikh's opinion? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 7 Government Exhibit -- a part of Government Exhibit, in 8 evidence, 2657? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 BY MR. BARKOW: 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what Government Exhibit 2657, in 12 evidence, is? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What is it? 15 A. It is the Reuters report on what Ms. Stewart said. 16 Q. Did the report say that the article said -- 17 A. I cannot hear you, Mr. Fallick. 18 Q. The article, right, that the Sheikh is withdrawing his 19 support for the cease-fire? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10185 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. After Ms. Stewart's phone call to Mr. Salaheddin, did you 2 talk to him also? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And what did you say to him? 5 A. I thanked him for his time and I hang up with him. 6 Q. Following this call and following publication of the 7 article in Reuters, did you give the statement to anyone? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who did you give it to? 10 A. I spoke to the Arabic press. 11 Q. What did you say to the Arabic press? 12 A. I told them basically what Ms. Stewart said in her 13 interview with Reuters. 14 Q. And were articles published? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did the articles attribute the statement to 17 Ms. Stewart? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And was that true? 20 A. No, it was not. 21 Q. Who are the articles attributed to? Who should the 22 articles have been attributed to? 23 A. Me. 24 Q. Did you support the Sheikh's statement? 25 A. Did I support the Sheikh's statement? I have no opinion on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10186 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 the Sheikh's statement. 2 Q. What was the reaction, if any, to the Sheikh's statement 3 after it was announced to the press? 4 A. It was huge. 5 Q. What do you mean by huge? 6 A. It was a huge reaction. I mean, I never expected to be 7 that big. It was people saying, no, he did not say that. 8 Other people saying, yes, he did. People saying, no. We don't 9 believe that he was withdraw his support. People attacking me 10 personally, accusing me of being a CIA agent, attacking my 11 credibility and my integrity, attacking everything that I ever 12 worked for, getting phone calls from everywhere. It was big. 13 I never seen anything like that during my years of dealing with 14 the Sheikh. 15 Q. Why, in your opinion, were people attacking you? 16 A. Well, as what I said or what I know, there is -- there was 17 a conflict within the Islamic Group between two groups, two 18 factions. There was the Sheikh right there. He is the 19 spiritual leader of the Islamic Group. Everybody wants to pull 20 this man to his side. If they cannot succeed in doing that, 21 they will attack the other faction, but in a way directly 22 attack each other. So it is easy for them to attack somebody 23 who is not a member of the group or who is not -- does not 24 belong to their group. 25 So the attack was toward me, saying that I am such and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10187 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 such. I am a CIA agent, I am a spy, I am dishonest person. 2 And instead of saying, you know, attack a person like Rifa'i 3 Taha or attacking a person like the Sheikh, it is easier for 4 them to say those things about me. 5 Q. After learning of the reaction to the statement that was 6 released to the media, what, if anything, was done? 7 A. I spoke to Mr. Yousry. I was in a very bad shape. And you 8 know, I asked if the Sheikh can clear his position on this. I 9 also received phone calls from the Sheikh's son, you know, 10 asking for clarification, too, or asking the Sheikh to stay 11 away from that conflict. 12 Q. Did the Sheikh ever issue a clarification? 13 A. Yes, he did. 14 Q. And when did he do that? 15 A. I am not quite sure of the date, but it was some time after 16 the June 13th -- 17 Q. How did you become aware of the Sheikh's clarification? 18 A. I was at the office when the Sheikh made this phone call. 19 Q. When you say, at the office, whose office? 20 A. I was at Ms. Stewart's office sitting outside in the 21 reception area because I'm not allowed to be sitting where the 22 phone is, where she is taking the call. It was Mr. Yousry. 23 Q. And after this phone call, were you told -- what were you 24 told about the Sheikh's clarification? 25 A. The Sheikh clarified his statement. The Sheikh said that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10188 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 it was not a call for violence. He gave a few points. I took 2 a few points from Mohammed and I wrote them down. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 4 Government Exhibit 2663 in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what Government 2663 in evidence 7 is? 8 A. It is a press release. 9 Q. And the press release concerning what? 10 A. Concerning the Sheikh's clarification. 11 Q. And who was the press release issued to? 12 A. It was issued to the media. 13 Q. Let me show you paragraph 4. Do you have that before you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And let me read that: Even though the Egyptian government 16 is still killing the innocents and not releasing the detainees 17 from arbitrary imprisonment, and even though they are 18 terrifying people in their homes and other criminal acts 19 continue, I did not cancel the ceasefire. I do withdraw my 20 support to the initiative. I expressed my opinion and left the 21 matter to my brothers to examine it and study it because they 22 are the ones who live there and they know the circumstances 23 where they live better than I. I also ask them not to repress 24 any other opinion within the Gama'a, even if that is a minority 25 opinion. This is the way we have been since we founded this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10189 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Gama'a, and we should continue to be open to all opinions. 2 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was 3 saying there? By the way, was this the Sheikh's statement? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is your understanding? 6 A. My understanding is that the Sheikh is saying that even 7 though that he withdraw his support for the ceasefire or the 8 peace initiative, but this is just his opinion. He does not 9 have -- he is not a policy maker for the Gama'a. If the Gama'a 10 al-Islamiya wants to -- everything is in the Gama'a's leader's 11 hand. 12 Q. When the Sheikh said, I also asked them not to repress any 13 other opinion with the Gama'a, even if that is a minority 14 opinion, what was your understanding about what he was 15 referring to? 16 A. He was referring to the Rifa'i Taha opinion. He was asking 17 the Gama'a to let the other opinion express itself. If 18 somebody wants to express a different opinion, even if it is a 19 minority opinion, let it be. 20 Q. Let me refer you to paragraph 2 where it says: I declare 21 that Ahmed Sattar is a Muslim brother who has worked with me 22 all these years and even on my case as a paralegal. I trust 23 him with everything I have; to the degree that he holds my 24 power of attorney to act on my behalf and he is the executor of 25 my will, I trust him to give advice to my children in my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10190 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 absence, transfer my body when I die and to pay off my debts. 2 I testify that he does not speak anything but the truth. To 3 those who accuse him of being an agent, I tell them to fear 4 Allah and do not say anything that they are not certain of and 5 to watch their tongues. 6 In your opinion, why did the Sheikh have to make that 7 statement? 8 A. He was replying to the reports that were accusing me of 9 being a CIA agent and not trustworthy. 10 Q. Do you believe that either of the Sheikh's statement, his 11 first statement after the May prison visit and his 12 clarification statement concerning his withdrawal of support 13 for the ceasefire, called for any violent activity on behalf of 14 the Islamic Group? 15 A. No. 16 Q. In your opinion, what did it call for? 17 A. It called for a dialogue, it called for -- it was like 18 throwing a rock in a still water just to create a wave, to 19 create some kind of movement. The situation in Egypt was at a 20 standstill. This is what the Sheikh's statement did. 21 Q. Did there come a time when you yourself were asked about 22 your opinion of the Sheikh's statement concerning withdrawal of 23 support for the ceasefire? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when was that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10191 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. I am not sure of the date exactly, but I know it was in 2 June. 3 Q. By whom were you asked? 4 A. I was asked by Al-Jazeera. 5 Q. What is Al-Jazeera? 6 A. Al-Jazeera is a TV satellite channel. It is a news 7 channel. It is based in Qatar and it is broadcast worldwide. 8 Q. Why did they ask you -- why, if you know, did they ask you 9 for your comment? 10 A. They did not ask me directly. They called Yassir Al-Sirri 11 first and I received a call from Yassir Al-Sirri asking me if I 12 wanted to speak with them. So I understood that it was either 13 me to speak to them or Muntasir Zayyat will speak to them. And 14 at this time Muntasir was at the other end attacking my 15 credibility and attacking me. So I preferred to speak to them. 16 I said yes, I will speak to them. 17 Q. Did you speak with them? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know if your conversation with Al-Jazeera was 20 recorded? 21 A. Back then, no. 22 Q. Do you know now that it was recorded? 23 A. Yes, I know now. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I approach Mr. Sattar? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10192 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as AS-15 in evidence. 2 Do you know what that is, Mr. Sattar? 3 A. This is one of my floppy disks that was taken from my home. 4 Q. Was that seized by the government? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. Do you know if your interview with Al-Jazeera is on this 7 floppy disk? 8 A. I don't. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I also display to 10 Mr. Sattar and the jury AS-11-T in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what AS-11-T in evidence is? 13 A. It is my interview -- transcript of my interview, English 14 transcript of my interview with Al-Jazeera. 15 Q. And this is dated June 23, 2000 at 8:35? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would ask that Mr. Sattar 18 read his portion of the transcript, and I'll read the portion 19 of the transcript of the reporter. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Hold on just one second. All right. 22 MR. FALLICK: May we proceed, your Honor? 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, why don't you start reading the attributions to 24 yourself. 25 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-11-T in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10193 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display the 3 continuation, AS-12-T in evidence? 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit AS-12-T in 6 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, when you used the word we in this interview, 8 who were you referring to by we? 9 A. You know, if you listen to my phone conversations or my -- 10 you read it, I have a very bad habit of using the word we, you 11 know, in Arabic. You know, it is either used, the word I in 12 Arabic or we in Arabic, and it is very common. It depends on 13 which part of Egypt that you came from. When I say we, I mean 14 I. 15 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone commit any violent acts as a 16 result of the Sheikh's withdrawal statements? 17 A. No. 18 Q. To your knowledge, is the peace initiative still in effect 19 today? 20 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 21 A. It is. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I'm about to start a new 24 area. Would this be a good time to break? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10194 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for lunch. 2 Please, please, remember my continuing instructions. Please 3 don't talk about this case at all. Please don't talk about the 4 case. And always remember to keep an open mind until you have 5 heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, 6 you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 7 We will resume at 2:00. Have a very good lunch. I 8 look forward to seeing you this afternoon. 9 All rise, please. Follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury 10 room. 11 (Jury not present) 12 THE COURT: Please be back at quarter of two. See you 13 this afternoon. 14 (Luncheon recess) 15 (Pages 10195-10197 SEALED by order of the Court) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10198 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. We can bring 3 the jury in. 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It 6 is good to see you all. 7 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher. 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 10 still under oath. 11 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 13 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 14 BY MR. FALLICK: 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, at the end of September 2000, did you become 16 aware of an incident in the Middle East? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How do you recall becoming aware of an incident in the 19 Middle East? 20 A. It was all over the news. 21 Q. And what do you recall? 22 A. I recall after -- at the end of September 2000 that Prime 23 Minister Sharon, which he was at the time the opposition leader 24 in Israel, visiting as Al-Aqsa Mosque in Israel. This mosque 25 is the third holiest place in Islam. He did not just go there SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10199 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 by himself. He was -- he went there and it was a very 2 high-profile visit. Many people opposes the visit. And he 3 went there, there was almost 2,000 Israeli soldiers. It was 4 like an invasion. It was broadcast all over the world. It was 5 broadcast here on all of the Arab channels here and this has 6 created a lot of anger in the Muslim world and in the Arab 7 world. It was a violation of that holy place. 8 There were demonstrations everywhere in Egypt and even 9 in Saudi Arabia, where demonstrations are forbidden. In the 10 occupied territory, territories in the West Bank, Gaza, there 11 were huge reaction to that visit. Many people were killed. 12 Many Palestinians were killed. 72 Palestinians were killed in 13 two days. When I say 72 Palestinians, to make it clear here, 14 72 out of 33 million Palestinians. When you kill 72 people in 15 two days, it is like killing 7200 here in America. 16 Q. Do you recall how you felt when you saw what happened at 17 this time? 18 A. I was upset. I was angry. I was glued to the TV. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 20 AS-5-T in evidence? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me show you just the cover page of 23 Defendant's Exhibit AS-5-T in evidence, and this is a 24 conversation on October 6, 2000 at 21:50 and the participants 25 are yourself, Nasser Ahmed, and your wife. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10200 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Do you recall that conversation? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 2 of that telephone 4 call. And you see where I have put the red line, the arrow 5 there? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Can you read that, please? 8 A. Of course, of course. The entire Arab world is furious. 9 I've been -- I've been watching the news coming from 10 everywhere, from Egypt, from Jordan, and from the Emirates. 11 There are demonstrations in Saudi Arabia. 12 Q. And what were you referring to in this conversation? 13 A. I was referring to the reaction in the Arab world of the 14 people to the Sharon visit to the Al-Aqsa Mosque. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government would 16 request a limiting instruction with respect to this area of 17 testimony. 18 MR. FALLICK: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: The testimony is being received for -- not 20 for the truth of the matters asserted, but for the effect on 21 the witness's knowledge, intent, and state of mind. 22 MR. FALLICK: May I continue, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Q. And later on in that conversation, again where I put a 25 marking, Mr. Ahmed says: Looking at the child while he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10201 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 dying is something impossible, I mean. 2 What is your understanding about what Mr. Ahmed was 3 talking about? 4 A. Nasser Ahmed was referring to an incident that took place a 5 few days before that where a Palestinian child about 10 or 12 6 years old was gunned down by Israeli soldiers in the arms of 7 his father. 8 Q. Later on, again where I've put a red marking, can you read 9 what you say? 10 A. You want me to read it? 11 Q. Yes. 12 A. Abu Ahmed it not the only child, but they saw him live on 13 television. They saw him dying. You haven't seen it? You 14 don't know about it? Was it shown on American television? I 15 am watching Al-Jazeera. 16 Q. What are you referring to? 17 A. I am referring to the child that was killed by the 18 Israelis. 19 Q. And the last attribution on that page, would you read that, 20 to your left? Would you read that also? 21 A. They put pictures. They put pictures of the boy when he 22 was alive, alive, and his father was telling them, was telling 23 them, enough, enough. Aside to Lisa? What? No, no. I'm 24 watching the news. He was telling them -- back to 25 Al-Hummusani. He was telling them, enough, enough. We are -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10202 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 he was waving his hands like that. After that, he had told 2 them the boy had died. The boy had died. I mean, the boy was, 3 the boy was talking to his father. He was crying. Later, a 4 stream of, a stream of bullets shot with a rifle, and you know 5 what? The father was silent and the boy was silent. 6 Q. Again, what are you referring to there? 7 A. I'm referring to the ten-years-old boy and what happened to 8 him. 9 Q. Later on, again where I put a marking, can you read that 10 attribution, your attribution? 11 A. Yes, now they have Hosni Mubarek. They are showing the 12 demonstrations that took place at Al-Azhar. Too many 13 demonstrators backed out from Al-Azhar. However, they only 14 allowed them, they only allowed them to report certain things. 15 They showed Hosni Mubarek as he was visiting, as he was 16 visiting wounded Palestinians. 17 Q. What are you referring to in that attribution? 18 A. I'm referring to the president of Egypt visiting one of the 19 Palestinians that were transferred from the occupied 20 territories to Egypt for medical treatment because they did not 21 have enough beds to treat them in the occupied territories. 22 Q. After seeing on the news what occurred at the Al-Aqsa 23 mosque, did you have a conversation with anyone about these 24 events? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10203 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Who did you have a conversation with? 2 A. I had a conversation with Rifa'i Taha. 3 Q. Did he call you or did you call him? 4 A. He called me. 5 Q. Do you remember when that conversation took place? 6 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it was around early 7 October. 8 Q. In 2000? 9 A. 2000, yes. 10 Q. What did you and Taha discuss? 11 A. We discussed the situation in the Middle East, and I 12 discussed with him if he could write something. 13 Q. And when you say you discussed with him, meaning Taha to 14 write something, what were you talking about? 15 A. I was talking to him if he could write a statement in the 16 Sheikh's name. 17 Q. Do you recall if Taha wrote anything in the Sheikh's name? 18 A. Yes, he did. 19 Q. Do you recall when he wrote it? 20 A. I'm sorry? 21 Q. Do you recall when he wrote it? 22 A. I think a day later or a couple of days later. 23 Q. Do you recall what he wrote? 24 A. Did I recall what he wrote, yes. 25 Q. What did he write? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10204 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. He wrote the statement or the fatwah that was read here in 2 court about kill the Jews. 3 Q. And what is a fatwah? 4 A. A fatwah is, it is a legal, an Islam legal opinion, not 5 binding opinion. 6 Q. What role, if any, did you have in the writing of the 7 fatwah? 8 A. I did not have a role in writing the fatwah. I just -- I 9 looked at it, I read it, I seen a few words that I change a few 10 words in it. And I just send it -- 11 Q. What words did you change? 12 A. I changed two words. It was the title of the fatwah was to 13 kill the Jews everywhere. I change it to Israelis. I think it 14 is Israelis or Zionists. There was another part in it that 15 were referring to Americans or the United States, and I took 16 this out. 17 Q. Even though you changed the title of the fatwah, did the 18 body of the fatwah continue to contain statements saying, kill 19 Jews everywhere they may be found? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall telling Taha that you spoke to the Sheikh 22 about writing something in connection with what happened in the 23 Middle East? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And had you talked to the Sheikh about the fatwah? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10205 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. No, I wasn't talking to the Sheikh -- 2 Q. Why did you tell Taha that you had spoken to the Sheikh 3 about the statement? 4 A. Just tell him just to push him to write something. 5 Q. What was your intention in having the fatwah issued under 6 the Sheikh's name? 7 A. It was two things. My intention was to keep the Sheikh's 8 name in public, in the media, that he is reacting to current 9 events, that he is aware of what's gone on, and he is reacting 10 to what's going on in the Middle East. 11 The other thing is to have somebody speak against 12 what's taken place in Palestine at the time, especially with 13 the official Arab silence. There was no official Arab 14 condemnation or reaction to what was going on in Palestine at 15 the time. The killings going on, innocent people have been 16 killed. The officials are not saying anything. 17 Q. After the fatwah was written, was it disseminated? 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. By whom? 20 A. I send it to Yassir Al-Sirri in London. He put it on his 21 website. It was taken from his website by -- I took it from 22 his website after that. I put it on another website. And 23 people took it from there and printed. You know, even here in 24 New York it was disseminated -- there was a public protest here 25 and it was given out to the people. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10206 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And after the fatwah was disseminated, did you have 2 conversations with anyone concerning reactions to it? 3 A. I did. 4 Q. And with whom? 5 A. I did have conversation with, I believe Yousef Odeh. 6 Q. Who is Mr. Odeh? 7 A. He is my friend and I worked with him delivering baby 8 formula for him. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 10 Government Exhibit 1185X in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall this conversation with Mr. Odeh 13 on October 6, 2000 at 17:02? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And is this the conversation you had with him concerning 16 the fatwah that was issued? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may Mr. Sattar and I read 19 the first page of this exhibit? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Sattar, please read the attributions to yourself first. 22 (At this point the first page of Government Exhibit 23 1185X in evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, during the part you just read you obviously 25 cursed, is that correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10207 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. 2 Q. And was that something you ordinarily did? 3 A. No, I don't do that. 4 Q. And do you recall -- 5 A. I don't do that very often unless it is just -- I mean, 6 there are thousands of conversations, telephone conversations, 7 and you will rarely hear me curse. 8 Q. Do you recall why during this conversation you did curse? 9 A. As what I told you, I was upset, I was angry at -- the 10 whole situation was just driving me crazy, if you want to say 11 that. 12 Q. Let me refer you to, during the same conversation, page 3, 13 lines 14 through 16. Can you read those, please? 14 A. What's the line? 15 Q. 14 to 16. 16 A. With the Zionists. What does the oath have to do with 17 those who kill our children? Huh? If then anyone transgresses 18 the prohibition against you, transgress, ye, likewise against 19 him. 20 Q. That part of that attribution which is in italics, what is 21 that? 22 A. It is Quranic verse from a series of verses telling Muslims 23 how to react in case of somebody transgress against them. And 24 I'm using this, you know, to show to Yousef that this is -- it 25 has nothing to do with killing or killing people like -- it is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10208 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 just -- it is to express -- to keep in context with the Islamic 2 meaning of this series of verses. 3 Q. Were you trying to put the fatwah in the context -- 4 A. I was trying to do that, yes. 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 6 AS-13 in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, is this the series of Quranic verses that you 10 were talking about? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Is this a series that you were trying to put a fatwah in 13 context with? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Can you please read the first one, 190? 16 A. Fight in the cause of Allah, those who fight you, but do 17 not transgress limits; for Allah loveth, not transgressors. 18 Q. What does that mean to you? 19 A. Those who fight you but do not transgress against just 20 anybody because Allah does not love those who just go and 21 attack you for no reason or for -- 22 Q. Can you please read 191? 23 A. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out 24 from where they have turned you out, for persecution is worse 25 than slaughter; but fight them not at the sacred mosque, unless SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10209 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 they first fight you there. But if they fight you, slay them. 2 Such is the reward for those who reject faith. 3 Q. Again, what is your understanding of this passage? 4 A. It is same thing, do not fight, do not just, you know, 5 create a fight because you want to create a fight. Fight those 6 who fight you and fight those who pushed you out of your homes 7 and make you refugees. Fight those who because persecution is 8 worse than slaughter. 9 Q. Can you read 192, please. 10 A. But if they cease, Allah is oft for giving, most merciful. 11 Q. What does that mean to you? 12 A. If they stop fighting you, you must stop fighting them, 13 too. Allah is going to forgive them. If he is going to 14 forgive them, you must forgive, too. 15 Q. Can you please read 193? 16 A. And fight them on until there is no more persecution and 17 the religion becomes Allah's. But if they cease, let there be 18 no hostility except to those who practice oppression. 19 Q. Again, what does this passage mean? 20 A. It is saying do not. Just fight those, only those who 21 fight you. And until persecution, stop, until the unjustice is 22 lifted. And those people who do unjustice to you, cease doing 23 that. You must stop yourself, too. Except for this hope is 24 still continue the oppression. 25 Q. Can you finally read 194? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10210 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. The prohibited month for the prohibited month -- and so for 2 all things prohibited -- there is the law of equality. If then 3 anyone transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress you 4 likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is 5 with those who restrain themselves. 6 Q. That is the passage that's quoted in this transcript? 7 A. Yes, this is the passage that I quoted in that transcript. 8 Q. In your view, did you believe these passages applied to the 9 fatwah that was written here by Mr. Taha and yourself? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. And why did you believe that? 12 A. I believe that, first of all -- I mean, remember when you 13 ask me about does any speech or any -- if you are an Arabic 14 speaking or a Muslim will understand things differently than 15 you, and I told you yes. 16 I have to put this also in that context. The fatwah, 17 we have to put it in the context of the Arab/Israeli conflict. 18 This is unfortunately a way that the Arabs and Israelis 19 communicate. It has been going like this for so many years. 20 Arabs will stand up and say: Kill the Jews. Jews will stand 21 up and say: Kill the Arabs or kill the Muslims. We receive 22 hate mail here, here in the United States. I receive in my 23 mosque threats that, you know, some Jewish organization will 24 kill us. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10211 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. Stricken. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you. 3 Q. Were you aware of any reaction to the fatwah in the Middle 4 East? 5 A. Beside demonstrations? 6 Q. Was there any reaction to your fatwah in the Middle East? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And did you ever learn that a statement was released in the 9 name of the Islamic Group saying it promised to carry out the 10 Sheikh's fatwah? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. How did you learn that? 13 A. I read it in the newspaper, I believe. 14 Q. And did you believe that because of this fatwah the Islamic 15 Group would engage in any acts of violence? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Why not? 18 A. Because the Islamic Group, they have absolutely no power 19 whatsoever to do anything and the Islamic Group did not engage 20 in any act of violence since 1997, and they were not going to 21 do anything. It was just, you know, propaganda, if you want to 22 say that. 23 Q. To your knowledge, did the Islamic Group or anyone else 24 engage in any violence towards you, towards Israelis as a 25 result of this fatwah? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10212 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did you have any intent to have the fatwah increase the 3 risk of violence toward Jews or Israelis? 4 A. No. 5 Q. What was your intent? 6 A. My intent -- my intent was just to scream loud, to cry. 7 This was my intent. In my opinion, the Palestinians were the 8 victims. The Palestinians, they had been slaughtered. They 9 had been killed. When the victim scream and say, I am going to 10 kill you, he is still the victim. He is not going to do 11 anything. He is just crying and screaming. When I saw that 12 boy being shot, when I saw 72 Palestinians being killed in two 13 days, hundreds being wounded when I seen that, I screamed, I 14 cried, and I said: I will kill you. I did not mean to kill 15 anybody. I didn't want to kill anybody. I was just crying. 16 That's what I was doing. 17 Q. Was it your intent to encourage anyone to commit an act of 18 violence? 19 A. No. 20 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I'm finished with this area 21 and I would ask for a five-minute break. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for about five 24 minutes. Please remember my continuing instructions not to 25 talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an open SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10213 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 mind. 2 All rise, please, and -- I'm looking for Mr. Fletcher. 3 I'm sorry to keep you waiting. 4 Thank you. 5 (Jury not present) 6 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. There was one 7 point that I thought I heard an objection, but I didn't see 8 either an objection or a sustaining of the objection and so it 9 passed. 10 (Recess) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10214 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 2 (Witness resumes the stand) 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. FALLICK: I probably will ask for a break about 6 3:45. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 (Continued on next page) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10215 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 4 Mr. Fletcher? 5 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 6 you are still under oath. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 8 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 9 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 10 BY MR. FALLICK:: 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, did there come a time when you began to speak 12 to a man named Hani? 13 A. Hani? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When was that? 17 A. That was in early 2000. 18 Q. Did he call you or did you call him? 19 A. He called me. 20 Q. Do you know how he got your telephone number? 21 A. At the beginning, no. But I -- 22 Q. Later on? 23 A. Later on I learned that he got it from Salah Hashim. 24 Q. And again, who is Salah Hashim? 25 A. Salah Hashim is the architect of the peace initiative and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10216 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 he used to speak with Rifa'i Taha all the time. 2 Q. And was Salah Hashim known by any other name? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. How is he referred to? 5 A. The Engineer. 6 Salah Hashim is a real engineer and as what I told you 7 before, we refer to people you know in the Arab, in our Arabic 8 culture by -- we can address them by names like this Engineer, 9 Doctor, Professor, it's -- 10 Q. When Hani first called you, do you know where he was? 11 A. I know he was in Egypt. 12 Q. Did you know who Hani was? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You did you later come to know him by any other name? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What name was that? 17 A. Fawzi. 18 Q. F-A-W-Z-I? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Why did he initially call you? 21 A. He initially, he called me and asked to speak to Abu Hazim. 22 He wants to speak to Abu Hazim. 23 Q. Who is Abu Hazim? 24 A. Abu Hazim is Mustafa Hamza, so I told him I will -- I don't 25 have a means of contacting Abu Hazim directly so I told him I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10217 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 will try to send a message to him. 2 Q. Did he tell you why he wanted to speak to Hamza? 3 A. He said that his father wants to speak to him. 4 Q. Did he identify, in the beginning, in the first 5 conversation, who his father was? 6 A. Yes. He said his father's name was Hamab, H-A-M-A-B, 7 Badarway, B-A-D-A-R-W-A-Y. 8 Q. And did you know who that was? Did you know who that 9 person was? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, after this first phone call with Hani, did you relay 12 his request to Yunis? 13 A. Yes. I sent an e-mail to Yunis. 14 Q. And did he reply back to you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what was his reply? 17 A. He said he doesn't know who is Hani or who is Hammam 18 Badarway. 19 Q. And did you relay Yunis' answer back to Hani? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When was that? 22 A. That was -- I'm not quite sure, a week later or two weeks 23 later, you know, he called me back and ask what's -- if I 24 relayed his message. And I told him, yes; and he doesn't know 25 who you are. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10218 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And what did he say? I mean, he, meaning Hani? 2 A. Hani told me that his father's name was 'Alaa, A-L-A-A, 3 Abdel, R-A-Z-E-K. 4 Q. Did you know who that was? 5 A. At that time, no. 6 Q. Now, did you relay, again, Hani's response back to Yunis? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And, how did you do that? 9 A. I sent another e-mail. 10 Q. And did you receive a reply back? 11 A. I'm not quite sure if I received a reply back or he called 12 me. 13 Q. And what did he say? 14 A. He still didn't know who he is and he ask asking me what 15 they want and I don't know what they want. 16 Q. Did you again speak to Hani? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And did he call you or did you call him? 19 A. Hani called me. 20 Q. And did you relay Yunis' message back again to him? 21 A. Yes. 22 At this time, you know, Hani was kind of like begging, 23 telling me, you know, you don't know how much we -- how much 24 these calls are costing us and he doesn't want to talk to us. 25 Please, tell him we need to talk to him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10219 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Hani asked to speak to anyone else? 2 A. He asked -- yes. He says, you know, if Yunis doesn't 3 want -- if Abu Hazim doesn't want to talk to us can either one, 4 can Taha, his last name is Musa also, can Taha speak to us? 5 And I said, I will tell Taha that. 6 Q. Do you know if Abu Hazim ever spoke with Hani? 7 A. Abu Hazim? 8 Q. Yes. 9 A. I don't. 10 Q. Do you know if he ever spoke with Hani? 11 A. I don't know if Abu Hazim ever spoke with Hani. I know 12 Yunis did. 13 Q. Did Yunis ever speak with Hani? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. How do you know that? 16 A. I know because in April, four months later, I got another 17 call from Hani and Hani was, again begging, he wants, you know, 18 somebody to speak to him. 19 So, I told Yunis again and he said, All right, do you 20 have a number for him? And I said, Yes, I do. He said, All 21 right. Connect me with him or arrange for a call. 22 Q. Did you do that? 23 A. And I did. 24 Q. And did you listen to that call? 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10220 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And, again, why did you arrange the call between Yunis and 2 Hani? 3 A. It was just, you know, I didn't know what those people want 4 for him. They were begging, they were saying, you know, Hani 5 saying that they are in dire situation, they are in need, you 6 know, they have no money whatsoever. So, I assumed that 7 something is wrong there. Somebody needs help. 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 9 Government Exhibit 1068X, in evidence? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, is Government Exhibit 1068X, in evidence, a 12 transcript of the call between Mustafa Hamza and Hani on April 13 1st, 2000? 14 A. I'm sorry? 15 Q. Is Government Exhibit 1068X a transcript of the call 16 between Mustafa Hamza and Hani on April 1st, 2000? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Was that call placed on the line 718-442-3513? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Whose phone number was that? 21 A. That's my telephone number. 22 Q. I display to you page 2 of this transcript and go down to 23 line 16 and 17. Hani says: He sent me to you and told me to 24 return your call. Anyway, I am Hani, and I am the one who 25 contacted Mr. Ahmed, and I used the name Fawzi. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10221 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding about what Hani is speaking 2 about here? 3 A. HanI is telling Yunis that he contacted me and he used the 4 name Fawzi. 5 Q. And at line 19: And I am the one who got the phone number 6 from the Engineer. 7 What phone number is Hani referring to? 8 A. Referring to my telephone number, that he got it from Salah 9 Hashim. 10 Q. And on page 3, line 8, Hani says Mr. 'Alaa was trying for a 11 long time to contact Abu Yassir or Abu Hazim. 12 Were you listening to this conversation? 13 A. Yes, I was. 14 Q. And did you know who Mr. 'Alaa was? 15 A. 'Alaa, my understanding was he is Hani's father. 16 Q. Now, after this telephone call, did you continue to connect 17 Yunis with Hani? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. How would you reach Hani? 20 A. He gave me a few telephone numbers that I could reach him 21 in Egypt. 22 Q. Whose tell phone numbers did he give you? 23 A. He was -- I remember one guy, his name was Ahmed Al-Sharif, 24 he was a teacher. Another person, his name was -- they refer 25 to him as Dr. Ismail, and he was, I believe he was a professor SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10222 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 at Al-Azhar University. 2 I think there was another telephone number but I'm not 3 quite sure, you know, for who. I mean the name of the person 4 that -- 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display Government 6 Exhibit 1070X, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. This is Government Exhibit 1070X, in evidence. It is a 9 transcript of a telephone call on April 11th, 2000. The 10 participants are yourself, Hani, Mustafa Hamza, Ismail and 11 unknown male. 12 Did you arrange for this telephone call? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. I am going to refer you to page 8, lines 17 to, through 20. 15 And it reads, Hani is saying: He is saying that he 16 has only one hundred pounds on him, and he is in desperate need 17 for money. He can't do anything because the land is currently 18 arid, no plants. It is a must that he gets money because he 19 has to have enough during this period, hmm? 20 What is your understanding of who Hani is talking 21 about when he says "he"? 22 A. Hani is referring to 'Alaa. 23 Q. At this point do you know who 'Alaa is? 24 A. No, I don't know, but I start to understand that 'Alaa is a 25 fugitive. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10223 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. When Hani says, he is saying that he has only one hundred 2 pounds on him and he is in desperate need for money, who he is 3 referring to? 4 A. He is referring to the same person, 'Alaa. 5 Q. When he says the land is currently arid, no plants, what is 6 your understanding of that phrase? 7 A. My understanding that, first of all I know that the number 8 was in -- the number that they give me, Dr. Ismail's number was 9 in upper Egypt. Upper Egypt is so famous for producing or 10 cultivating sugar canes. So, when he is talking about the land 11 is arid, there is no sugar cane fields any more there so he 12 cannot hide. He needs a place to hide. 13 Fugitives in upper Egypt, they hide in the sugar cane 14 fields. 15 Q. Do you know who is hiding? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Who? 18 A. 'Alaa. 19 Q. Let me refer to you page 13 of this transcript, lines 16 20 through 18. 21 Let me go back to line 13 through 18. Hamza says: In 22 principle, the money problem can be partially solved. For 23 example, if you give us a name -- 24 Hani says: Mm. 25 Hamza: -- of a trustworthy person, it will partially SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10224 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 solve the problem to some extent, because we don't know with 2 whom we are dealing, how, and we are still -- 3 What is your understanding of what Hamza is referring 4 to? 5 A. Hamza is telling him the money problem is no problem, that 6 he can solve this problem with, you know, send him some money. 7 Q. And when he says we don't know with whom we are dealing, 8 how, and we are still -- 9 What is your understanding of what Hamza is referring 10 to? 11 A. That he has no idea who these people are, who he is dealing 12 with. 13 Q. The next attribution to Hani says: Okay. Okay fine. You 14 can send it to this doctor I told you about, who was introduced 15 to them. He will now give you his exact name, you can send it 16 to him from any country, okay? 17 What is your understanding of what Hani is referring 18 to? 19 A. Hani is referring to Dr. Ismail, you know, the one that, 20 where I called. 21 Q. When Hani says you can send it, what is your understanding? 22 A. Send the money. 23 Q. Page 14, line 7 and 8, Hamza says: [Stuttering] Yeah, he 24 is to exit, if he travels abroad he will be solving a problem 25 for us. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10225 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 First, what is your understanding of who Hamza is 2 referring to? 3 A. He is referring to 'Alaa. 4 Q. And when he says, "if he travels abroad he will be solving 5 a problem for us," what is your understanding of that? 6 A. Well, he understands now that this person is a fugitive and 7 being a fugitive he has been hunted by the Egyptian government, 8 so it will be for the best of everybody, you know, if he can 9 just, you know, leave Egypt -- completely leave Egypt otherwise 10 he will be killed or, you know, it's not going to be good. 11 12 Q. On lines 14 and 15 Hamza says: Okay, but as I told you -- 13 Hani says, I'm sorry, okay, but as I told you, he is 14 very careful with his movement. It is very difficult. 15 What is your understanding of who Hani is referring 16 to? 17 A. He is referring to, again, 'Alaa, and he is saying that his 18 movement is, you know, he cannot move easy. It is, you know, 19 wherever he goes, you know there is -- they are looking for him 20 that he cannot just be moving like anybody else. 21 Q. Did there come a time that you learned who 'Alaa was? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And who was 'Alaa? 24 A. 'Alaa was, his name was 'Alaa Abdel Atia. He was a 25 militant, an Islamic Group militant. He was involved in acts SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10226 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 of violence against the Egyptian government and he was wanted 2 by the Egyptian government. 3 Q. How do you know all of this about Atia? 4 A. I know this -- I read about him in a magazine article that 5 it actually said that in the article, the article said that he 6 was actually appointed to be the military wing leader of the 7 Islamic Group. 8 And then after he was killed, you know, there was 9 other articles written about him and I learned, you know, a 10 great deal about him from that. 11 Q. Did there come a time that Yunis spoke directly to Atia? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And do you recall when that was? 14 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it was a few weeks 15 probably after the last call. 16 Q. And how was that phone call arranged? 17 A. Through me. 18 Q. Did you listen to that phone call? 19 A. Yes. 20 But, you know, I have a problem when he was asking me 21 if I listen to those phone calls. Those phone calls -- most of 22 those phone calls, I did not sit holding the receiver or, you 23 know, and listening to all of them. 24 What I was, just used to do, connect the people, 25 sometimes I sit for about five minutes. I go, I smoke a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10227 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 cigarette, I have a cup of coffee, I do something and then I 2 come back to the phone call. 3 So, I was not just sitting there listening to every 4 word that they are saying. I missed a few words, I listened to 5 a few words, but I get the -- 6 Q. You got the general impression what they were talking 7 about? 8 A. The view of the conversation, yes. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I publish to the jury 10 Government Exhibit 1075X, in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1075X, in evidence, is a 13 transcript of a telephone call on April 24, 2000. The 14 participant are Mustafa Hamza, Hani, Dr. Ismail, and 'Alaa 15 Abdul Raziq Atia. And this phone call is placed over line 16 718-442-3513. Is that your telephone number? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Let me refer you to page 2 line 13, Hamza says: Well, that 19 is good. We've sent what we agreed upon to the bank. 20 And Ismail says: That is good. Thanks be to God. 21 And Hamza says: We sent two thousand. 22 What is your understanding of what Hamza is referring 23 to? 24 A. I understand that Hamza sent the money that Atia was asking 25 for. He sent him $2,000. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10228 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me refer you to page 11 and starting on line 10, Hamza 2 says: I would like to understand, this point is important to 3 me, and I want to understand it. I would like to know in which 4 direction you're going and in which direction he is going. We 5 want to organize the matter in order to have everyone on the 6 same wavelength, huh? 7 Atia replies: Well, he is in disagreement with Abu 8 Yasir. He is in conflict with Abu Yasir. 9 What is your understanding of what Hamza and Atia are 10 talking about? 11 A. Hamza wants to make sure that everybody is following the 12 general policy at the time, or the general policy of the 13 Islamic Group, which is, you know, adhering to the peace 14 initiative. And he wants to -- to -- to make sure that Atia is 15 adhering to it. He is not going to deviate or go in another 16 direction. 17 And Atia is saying that he understands that Abu -- he 18 doesn't know that Abu Hazim is in disagreement with Abu Yasir, 19 that Rifa'i Taha -- Mustafa Hamza is in disagreement with 20 Rifa'i Taha about the peace initiative. 21 Q. On line 18 Hamza says: Now, what? What is your position 22 in the situation? 23 A. No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I think I made a mistake here 24 on the first line. I think he is referring to Salah Hashim not 25 Mustafa Hamza, that he is in disagreement with Abu Yasir. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10229 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Line 18 Hamza says: Now, what? What is your position in 2 the situation? 3 Atia says: Eh, we don't have one. 4 Then Hamza says: But supposedly, isn't... the 5 original agreement was to commit to the general people's 6 opinion, huh? 7 Atia says: We are committed. 8 What is your understanding of what Hamza and Atia are 9 referring to? 10 A. Hamza clearly asked him about what is his position of the 11 peace initiative and Atia is saying we don't have a position. 12 He doesn't have a position, he is just, you know, follow what 13 they tell him. 14 And Hamza again, saying, you know, that he is supposed 15 to follow the general line of, or the general agreement with 16 what the Shura council agreed to and at the time the whole 17 Shura council or majority of the Shura council agreed to the 18 peace initiative. So, he is asking him that he must follow the 19 peace initiative and, you know, the policy of the Islamic group 20 at this time. 21 Q. Page 22, line 18, Hamza says: We now want to protect you. 22 We want to protect you. No harm nor deviation from anything 23 that might affect people. 24 What was your understanding what Hamza was referring 25 to here? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10230 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 A. Hamza is telling him that he wants to shield him or to 2 shield those people from any disagreements. You know, that 3 they should not involve themselves, you know, with any 4 disagreements with this person or this person. It is also, it 5 is telling him, you know, that you shouldn't, you just, you 6 know, follow the general policy and that's it and this is, 7 would be good for you. 8 Q. On page 23, line 1 through 9, Atia says: The big matter -- 9 Hamza: Yes. 10 Atia: -- understand the big matter -- 11 Hamza: Yes. 12 Atia: -- was a reason for what happened. 13 Hamza: Yes. 14 Atia: From the beginning of course... you must have 15 known by now, that we did the big matter on our own. We had no 16 link to anybody and nobody told us anything. 17 A. And no? 18 Q. And nobody told us anything? 19 A. Atia here is referring to the Luxor massacre. 20 Q. What is he saying? 21 A. He is saying that the big matter was the reason for what 22 happened. The big matter was the reason for everybody coming 23 on board and supporting the peace initiative after Luxor as 24 what I told you, that everybody was, you know, says no more. 25 That's it. Violence is supposed to be over. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10231 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 So, Atia is referring here to that and he is telling 2 him from the beginning, of course, you must have known by now 3 that we did the big matter on our own. 4 Q. When he says that we did the big matter on our own, what 5 was your understanding of what Atia was talking about? 6 A. My understanding, he is talking about Luxor and he says 7 that, you know, whoever did it or, you know, including him, it 8 was done with no, on their own. They did not take orders from 9 nobody. Nobody knew anything about it and he had -- and he is 10 saying we had no link to anybody and nobody told us anything. 11 That he had no link that had he no connection at the 12 time with anybody and that's it. You know, they did that on 13 their own. 14 Q. And was it your understanding that Atia was saying he was 15 part of a group that did the massacre at Luxor? 16 A. Either he is -- I'm not quite sure if he was saying that he 17 was a part of it because, you know, in my knowledge, that 18 nobody survived, that attack. The people who were executed at 19 that time, nobody survived. They were all killed. 20 But I know -- I understand from what he is saying here 21 that, you know, he had a great knowledge about it so, you know, 22 he is, probably was one of the people who planned that attack, 23 yes. 24 Q. Did there come a time that you told Taha that Yunis was 25 speaking with Atia and Hani? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10232 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Do you recall when that was? 3 A. I believe that was a month later in May. 4 Q. And why did you tell Taha that Yunis was speaking with 5 Atia? 6 A. Because they asked -- originally Hani asked to speak to 7 either Yunis -- I mean either Abu Hazim or Taha. So, he was 8 already speaking to Yunis and I, in the meantime, I send e-mail 9 to Taha also, you know, asking him. 10 So, I believe he was traveling at the time he 11 disappeared for a few months and then when he came back in May, 12 I told him about this. I said, These people contacted me and 13 they wanted to speak to you. 14 Q. What did Taha say to you? 15 A. What did he say to me? 16 Q. What did Taha say to you, if anything, when you told him 17 that Yunis was speaking with Atia and Hani? 18 A. Well, I explained to him the conversation and I gave him, 19 you know, what I understood, you know, that who those people 20 are. 21 And he says, you know that he needs those people on 22 his side. I mean, that he wants these people on his side now. 23 You know. Something to that effect. I'm not quite sure of the 24 exact words. 25 Q. After you told Taha about these conversations between Yunis SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10233 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 and Atia, was he able to speak with either Hani or Atia? 2 A. Later on, yes. 3 Q. When you say later on, what do you mean later on? 4 A. I believe it was in September or October 2000. Five, six 5 months later. 6 Q. Between May and September, what was your understanding of 7 why Taha could not speak with Atia or Hani? 8 A. It was -- there was no -- the line of communication at the 9 time, Hamza was already speaking to them on his own and, you 10 know, I tried to make a few phone calls and you know, nobody 11 would answer me back and it took them a long time to get back 12 to me. 13 So, it was, you know -- it seems like they did not 14 want to talk to me or to Taha. 15 Q. And did there eventually come a time when Taha spoke to 16 Hani? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And do you recall when that was? 19 A. That was in September 2000. 20 Q. And did you arrange the call? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. And did you listen to the call? 23 A. Yes. As usual, you know, I mean on and off. 24 Q. Now, prior to placing the call, did you tell Taha how the 25 phone call would be arranged? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10234 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 3 Government Exhibit 1165X, in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 1165X, in evidence. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1165X, in evidence, is a 6 conversation between yourself and Taha on September 4th, 2000. 7 Was this phone call placed over your telephone line? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Now, let me refer you down to line 10. Taha says: I asked 10 how they are doing and so, hah? Will this be the brother 11 himself or who? 12 And you replied: No, this will be Hani, he is a 13 middleman. 14 When Taha says, "Will this be the brother himself or 15 who?" What is your understanding of who Taha was referring to? 16 A. Atia. 17 Q. And when you say, "No, it will be Hani, he is a middleman." 18 What are you referring to? 19 A. I am referring to the young man who was calling me that he 20 is the connection between Atia and the outside world. 21 Q. Did you then connect Taha to Hani? 22 A. Yes, I did. 23 Q. Did you then connect Taha to Hani? 24 A. Yes, I did. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10235 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 Government Exhibit 1167X, in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 1167X, in evidence, 4 the English transcript of a conversation between Taha and Hani? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Is that the conversation that you arranged? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. On page 2 of the transcript at lines 12 to 14, do you see 9 that, Mr. Sattar, where I put the red dot? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Taha says: Hhm. So you have an idea, you are aware of 12 what's going on and what the situation is like, the existing 13 differences of opinion and all these stories? 14 First, who was Taha speaking to? 15 A. Taha is speaking to Hani. 16 Q. And, what is your understanding of what Taha is saying to 17 Hani? 18 A. He is telling him about the conflict that's going on 19 between the two groups in the Islamic Group. 20 Q. And one of those two sides? 21 A. The two sides, the one who is supporting the peace 22 initiative and the one who is, the side that is disappointed 23 with the results of the peace initiative. 24 Q. And who was supporting the peace initiative? 25 A. It was the prisoners in Egypt and Muntasir Al-Zayat and the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10236 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 majority. 2 Q. And who was on the other side? 3 A. Rifa'i Taha and other people outside the country, Egypt. 4 Q. On page 3, line 20 to 24, Hani says, he says: As you know, 5 we had no contact with anybody for a long period of time, and 6 nobody contacted us. We therefore spoke to the Engineer, we 7 pleaded hard with him and he finally gave us the number of the 8 man we contacted. He told us to ask for Abu Hazim. 9 What is your understanding of what Hani is referring 10 to in this passage? 11 A. Hani is referring to Atia and the people around him, that 12 they were not in contact with anybody in Egypt or outside 13 Egypt. They were cut off from everybody for a long period of 14 time. 15 Q. Let me refer you to page 8, lines 5 to 6. Hani says: It 16 is a bit difficult to talk to Mr. Hammam. What is the main 17 thing you would like to convey to him now? 18 What is your understanding of who Hani is referring to 19 when he says "Mr. Hammam"? 20 A. Hani is using the first name that he give me at, in January 21 2000. The name that he referred to Atia was as Hammam. 22 Q. By now you know that Mr. Hammam is Atia? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Line 7 Taha says: The main thing is, no change whatsoever 25 in our thought. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10237 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding of what Taha is referring 2 to here? 3 A. Taha is telling him there is, you know, I mean there is no 4 change in the Islamic Group thought. Whatever, you know, they 5 stated in their writings in their charter and their books, you 6 know, their main thoughts and their ideology, let's put it this 7 way. 8 Q. In the lines 9 through 13 Taha says: Number two, the 9 media, word should probably continue to be said -- 10 A. I'm sorry, line 9. 11 Q. You see line 9 through 13? 12 A. Yes. Thank you. 13 Q. Taha says: Number two, the media. Word should powerfully 14 continue to be said by the outside people. We can't ask much 15 from the inside people, only God knows their status. 16 Presently, there are attempts to reduce the word of the Group 17 or to even abolish it. You probably don't hear a word from the 18 group on anything. 19 Again, what is your understanding what Taha is 20 referring to? 21 A. Taha, again, is complaining about, you know, that there is 22 the word of the Group in the media, that nobody hears anything 23 about them and he is telling him that the Group should continue 24 speaking out, you know, even though that there is no military 25 actions or operations no more. It should, he should -- they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10238 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 should continue criticizing and speaking against the 2 government. 3 He says -- he is also saying that he cannot ask much 4 from the inside people means that the people inside Egypt, the 5 people inside Egypt cannot speak out. They cannot say 6 anything. So, the people outside Egypt should because they are 7 able to speak out and they have access to the media. They 8 should keep speaking out and saying, you know, what they are 9 supposed to be saying. 10 And he is telling him that, you know, under the 11 current circumstances that the group voice is, does not exist 12 no more. 13 Q. What is your understanding of why Taha is telling all of 14 this to Hani? 15 A. Taha is trying to convey his point of view to Hani and to 16 the people -- not to Hani per se, to the people that Hani is in 17 contact with. He is trying to bring those people on his side. 18 That's what he is trying to do. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may we have a short break at 20 this time? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 We will have a short break for about five minutes. 23 And ladies and gentlemen, if -- I have told you this 24 before but if at any time any of you need a break, just raise 25 your hand. We all try to accommodate you. And we may not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10239 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 always appreciate your need for a break. So, if that happens 2 please, just raise your hand. 3 All right, we will take five minutes. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, please -- please -- remember my 5 continuing instructions. Don't talk about the case. Always 6 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 7 evidence. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 (Witness steps down) 13 THE COURT: Let me talk to the lawyers briefly? 14 (Pages 10240-10242 SEALED by order of the Court) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10243 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick? 3 MR. FALLICK: We are ready. Sorry. 4 THE COURT: If Mr. Sattar could take the stand. 5 (Continued next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10244 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 48CMSAT6 Sattar - direct 2 (Jury present) 3 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher. 4 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 5 are still under oath. 6 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, with permission of the 9 Court, I would like to return again to Government Exhibit 1075X 10 in evidence. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that this is the first 13 conversation between Hamza and Atia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On page 23, do you recall testifying about -- that the big 16 matter that Atia was referring to was Luxor? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall testifying that what Atia was referring to 19 was Luxor? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. When did it become apparent to you that Atia was talking 22 about Luxor? 23 A. When I was sitting in this courtroom when the government 24 played this conversation. 25 Q. And when you first heard this conversation, what was the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10245 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 first time you heard all this conversation? 2 A. Some of them I heard just for the first time here. Some of 3 them I heard -- I heard when the government, you know, turned 4 the discovery material to us. And some of them I heard, you 5 know, at home, you know, or parts that I heard at home when I 6 was connecting the people. In its entirety I never heard the 7 whole conversation until I was sitting in this courtroom. 8 Q. Now, it is your testimony that this refers to the massacre 9 at Luxor? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And Atia was in some way responsible for the massacre at 12 Luxor? 13 A. Yes. I never knew that, that he was responsible for it, 14 until actually I heard that conversation here. And it is also 15 when I spoke to Taha in the May 2000 conversation, I never 16 mentioned this to him because I did not even remember that this 17 was said back then. 18 Q. Now, when this conversation took place on April 24, 2000, 19 did you know at this time that Atia was a fugitive? 20 A. April 24, yes, I knew he was a fugitive. 21 Q. You knew he was hiding from the Egyptian government? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Did you know why he was hiding from the Egyptian 24 government? 25 A. I did not know exactly why, but if he is hiding, you know, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10246 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 you didn't really need a good reason to hide from the Egyptian 2 government. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 MR. FALLICK: May I have one moment, your Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Prior to the break we were talking -- you were testifying 8 about Taha's first conversation with Hani? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And do you recall that Taha was trying to convey to Hani 11 his points, what he wanted to be conveyed to Atia? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Let me go back to page 8. Do you recall that Taha was -- 14 let me go back before that to -- 15 MR. FALLICK: May I have one moment, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 Q. Now, we will stay on page 8. I'm sorry. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I confer with Mr. 19 Fallick for a second? 20 THE COURT: Sure. 21 Q. At lines 19 through 23 Taha is saying to Hani: These 22 people, we don't consider these people trustworthy, you see? 23 We want you to -- the line of the group has to continue as 24 strong as it used to be. It is not subject to change, 25 reduction, or be given up, God willing. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10247 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 What was your understanding at the time what Taha was 2 referring to? 3 A. At the time or -- 4 Q. At the time. 5 A. From reading this, my understanding of the timing, I don't 6 remember, you know, anything. But from reading this now I 7 could tell you -- and this is with all the conversation 8 that's -- 9 Q. What is your understanding now? 10 A. My understanding now -- 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I object to that. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. Do you recall what your understanding was when you heard 14 this part of the conversation back in 2000? 15 A. Let me read the part of the conversation first. 16 Q. Fine. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What was your understanding when the conversation took 19 place of what Taha was referring to? 20 A. Taha was referring to the people who wanted to change the 21 charter, the people who calling for every voice to stop, not to 22 talk, not to criticize the government, who in his opinion were 23 taking the Islamic Group in a direction that he does not agree 24 with. 25 Q. Taha then says: Third, to do or not to do is subject to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10248 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 capability. Hani says: Yeah. And Taha says: It is not 2 governed by any other factor. It is not subject to brothers. 3 It continues on on page 9. So and so say we don't do; it is 4 not subject to a so-called initiative. It is not subject to 5 change of our relation with the regime, no. It is only subject 6 to our capability to work. If we can work, we work. If we 7 can't, we prepare until our brothers get released from jails. 8 Our main cause was to get the people, especially the big 9 leaders, behind bars, released. 10 What was your understanding, if any, back when this 11 conversation took place of what Taha was referring to? 12 A. Taha was referring to the whole concept of working through 13 the Islamic Group, what the Islamic Group used to say. What I 14 want to mention here, the Islamic Group was also not just a 15 militant group. It was also a social group. It has clinics, 16 it has mosques, it has schools. And it has charity work 17 that -- throughout Egypt. So he is, you know -- there was a 18 voice within the group calling to stop everything, preaching 19 mosques. The clinics were closed. The schools, almost all of 20 it were closed. 21 And Taha here is saying, you know, any kind where it 22 is not subject of who say, do this or don't do that or it is 23 the subject if we have or if he has or the group has the 24 capability to work. If they have the capability to work, they 25 will work. If they have the capability to say something, they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10249 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 will say it. If they have the capability to do something, they 2 will do it. It doesn't mean because there is some kind of a 3 deal with the government or somebody cut a deal with the 4 government that the group will stop everything like they don't 5 exist no more. That's what he is saying right there. 6 Q. On page 12 of the same transcript, at lines 10 and 11 Hani 7 says: Well, this period we were certainly very short of money, 8 but they sent us some money and we were waiting. 9 What was your understanding of this conversation that 10 took place of what Hani was referring to? 11 A. He is talking about the money that Yunis sent to him. 12 Q. At lines 21 to 22 Taha says: But I heard that some people 13 suggested to go out or so, or the brother himself suggested to 14 go out. 15 What was your understanding of what Taha was referring 16 to when he made that statement? 17 A. Taha is referring to Atia. Is he the one who suggested to 18 leave Egypt, that he wants to leave Egypt or somebody else 19 suggested for him to leave. 20 Q. On page 13, Hani said: Yeah. And Taha says: And your 21 brother said that he can go out or that he can manage help him 22 go out or so. Hani: Yeah. Mr. Hammam, he Mr. Hammam, yeah, 23 he told me. I heard he, unintelligible. Hani says: He may go 24 out in the near future. Mr. is arranging for him to go to the 25 south. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10250 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 What was your understanding, if any, of what Hani and 2 Taha were referring to when they had this discussion? 3 A. They are referring to Atia, if Atia is going to go out. If 4 somebody is arranging for him to go out and Hani is telling 5 him, he may go out in the near future, that he is going to 6 leave Egypt in the near future. Mr. is arranging for him to go 7 to the south. He is talking about Yunis. Yunis arranging for 8 him to go to south, south of Egypt, it means the Sudan. It 9 means he is going to leave and go to the Sudan. 10 Q. Taha says on lines 10 and 11: God willing, I will 11 certainly meet with him as soon as he goes out. But I will see 12 him in your area before he goes out. 13 What was your understanding when Taha made that 14 statement? 15 A. Taha is here. He is clearly saying I will certainly meet 16 him -- meet with him as soon as he get -- as he goes out. When 17 he gets out of Egypt he is going to meet with him. But he 18 change his mind all of a sudden here. I will see him in your 19 area before he goes out. It means that, you know, but I will 20 meet him in Egypt before he leaves Egypt. 21 Q. To your knowledge, did Taha ever meet with Atia? 22 A. No. 23 Q. On page 14, at lines 14 to 16 Taha said: God bless you. I 24 swear to God, we feel it. God bless you, Sheikh. I think that 25 nobody should go out because going out is death. Nobody, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10251 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 junior or senior, went out before it was the end of him. All 2 the problem we have are caused by the people who went out. 3 What was your understanding when Taha made that 4 statement of what he meant? 5 A. I was telling him that the people who leave Egypt, that it 6 is no good for them. Outside Egypt it is no good for them. 7 They all have problems. Whether he is a small person or a big 8 person, a senior or a junior, they all have problems outside 9 Egypt. 10 Q. On line 28 Taha says: So, preferably God knows better. It 11 is better for you to say. It continues on page 15, line 1: In 12 your country as long as possible. 13 What was your understanding of what Taha was referring 14 to? 15 A. Taha referring to for anybody that, you know, want to 16 leave, you know, it is no good for him. It is better off to 17 stay in Egypt. 18 Q. Was it your understanding that he was referring to Atia, 19 that he should stay in Egypt? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On lines 4 to 20 Taha says: Yes, I know that. Back up the 22 line to 2 and 3. Hani says: Mr. told me that he will get back 23 to me after 15 days concerning this issue. 24 What was your understanding of any of what Hani was 25 referring to, lines 2 and 3? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10252 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 A. I am not quite sure. 2 Q. On lines 4 through 20, Taha said: Yes, I know that. This 3 is what I think. The brother has the choice, you too have the 4 choice. 5 What was your understanding of who the brother was 6 that Taha was referring to? 7 A. Taha was referring to Atia here. 8 Q. I'm just telling you about what I saw abroad the past ten 9 years. All our brothers abroad turned 180 degrees from the way 10 they were inside in terms of adhering to Da'wa, feeling of 11 anticipation of God's help, feeling insecure, all these things 12 make man close to God and, unintelligible. With God's help, we 13 taught the whole world the meaning of Jihad and Da'wa to God 14 and how to combine Da'wa in mosques, ordering righteousness and 15 Jihad for God's sake, how to pronounce the unjust, unjust, how 16 to silence someone at a point and where to stop someone. 17 Despite our young age in the seventies, the eighties 18 and till today, with God's help, the group presents a vision, a 19 symbol and a program to many Islamic movements. The people, 20 unintelligible, now, I mean people miss these concepts one way 21 or the other. The people inside, particularly those under the 22 same circumstances like you, unlike those in the world under 23 pressure, have families and women have a better sense of these 24 concepts. 25 What is your understanding of what Taha was referring SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10253 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 to during this passage? 2 A. He is telling him that, you know, Atia has a choice. He is 3 not telling him to stay inside Egypt or not. If he wants to 4 leave, he can leave. If he wants to stay, he can stay. But, 5 you know, he is telling him that this advantage of leaving 6 Egypt, things -- people who leave Egypt, they change. They are 7 not the same as people who were inside Egypt. In preaching 8 Islam, in speaking out and doing everything that Islamic faith 9 tell them to do, they had changed totally. And he said he 10 don't know that there is tremendous pressure outside Egypt to 11 speak. You have to understand that most of these people that 12 were outside Egypt, they are also fugitives. They are wanted 13 by the Egyptian government. They were insecure in their places 14 that they live in. 15 Q. Page 17 of the transcript. The call has been completed 16 and -- 17 A. What line, Mr. Fallick? 18 Q. Page 17, lines 18 and 19. Taha says to you: What do you 19 think of what was said? And you say: Good, thank God, good, 20 good. 21 What were you referring to when you said: Good, thank 22 God, good, good? 23 A. I was referring to the conversation that he had with Hani. 24 Q. Why do you think it was good? 25 A. What did I think it was good? It was just -- I felt like SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10254 4C85SAT5 Sattar - direct 1 talking to these people and expressing his point of view to 2 them and the other point of view. It was good. A good thing 3 for them to know. 4 Q. And on page 18, line 4 you say: Thank God, this gives them 5 the other point of view. 6 Who were you referring to when you say them? 7 A. Hani and his people. 8 Q. And when you said the other point of view, what were you 9 referring to? 10 A. It means Taha and the people who support him. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I am finished with this 12 transcript. Would this be a good time to break? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 16 the day. 17 It is very important that you follow all of my 18 instructions very carefully. Please, please don't talk about 19 the case at all among yourselves or with anyone when you go 20 home. Please remember not to look at or listen to anything to 21 do with the case. If you should see or hear something 22 inadvertently, please simply turn away. 23 Finally, always remember to keep an open mind until 24 you have heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the 25 law, you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10255 48CMSAT6 1 Fairness and justice to the parties requires that you do that. 2 With that, have a good evening and I look forward to 3 seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. 4 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 5 the jury room. 6 (Jury not present) 7 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, you may step down. 8 (Pages 10256-10261 SEALED by order of the Court) 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10262 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Direct By Mr. Fallick . . . . . . . . . . . 10129 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300