10116 4C85SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 8, 2004 8 9:40 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10117 4C85SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; jury not present) 2 (At side bar) 3 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Good morning, your Honor. 4 Mr. Tigar is just walking in the door. 5 THE COURT: Good morning, all. 6 MR. PAUL: Good morning, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: I just wanted to let you know that the 8 jurors are a bit late. They're filling out their menus so 9 we're a little late beginning. 10 When I arrived this morning the jurors were getting in 11 the elevator so I reversed direction and left and waited, which 12 is why I'm delayed in meeting with you this morning. But I 13 wanted to bring that to your attention. 14 I also just wanted to make sure that everyone is ready 15 to proceed this morning. 16 MR. BARKOW: We are, your Honor. Except that there is 17 one matter that we wanted to raise to the Court's attention. 18 Ms. Baker is sick today and she's not going to be 19 coming in, at least during the jury portion of the case, and 20 the government is ready to go forward nonetheless. 21 We were going to request, because of that, that we 22 delay the beginning of the charge conference because Ms. Baker 23 is the person primarily responsible for the government's 24 position on that. It happens to coincide with the request that 25 I spoke about with Mr. Ruhnke that I think the defense was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10118 4C85SAT1 1 going to make. And I will let him speak to that to which we 2 have no objection, actually. 3 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, in talking with the 4 government and all defense counsel, it may come as a surprise 5 but there are relatively few objections to the charge that the 6 Court has proposed and kindly given to us in draft. And I mean 7 relatively few. 8 I know you have made a reference at some point about 9 commas and quotation marks and semicolons and I don't think 10 that there is any of that in the offing. 11 What we propose is this. That we provide to your 12 Honor, in writing, no later than Friday, what objections there 13 are to the draft charge, that your Honor either rule on them on 14 the papers or if you want to hear from us further, hear from us 15 further on the charge. We are prepared today to file a reply 16 memorandum on the issue of the special verdict sentencing 17 elements memo. 18 But both the government and the defense think that's 19 an efficient way to do it and obviously we are making this 20 proposal in good faith and are not going to file 500 pages of 21 objections. There really are relatively limited objections. 22 THE COURT: What does it mean, really, relatively few? 23 The joy of a charge conference is that when people 24 make objections I'm able to listen to them and think about them 25 and look at the cases and ask people questions about them like, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10119 4C85SAT1 1 you know, is there any Second Circuit case that requires that I 2 give such a charge or questions like that and answers like 3 that. Answers to questions like that are helpful to me. 4 Now, of course I rely on your good faith when you tell 5 me that there are going to be relatively few but I have spent a 6 considerable length of time drafting the charge in response to 7 the original request to charge, the objections to those 8 requests. I mean, I have gone over each of them with enormous 9 care. 10 MR. RUHNKE: I think that's why there are so few 11 objections to them. 12 THE COURT: Then I got supplemental requests to 13 charge, of course, and objections to the supplemental request 14 to charge but I've had charge conferences in criminal cases 15 which have lasted literally less than half an hour. I have had 16 others which have gone considerably longer. 17 Now, if you really tell me that these are going to be 18 relatively few and I really can deal with them on the papers 19 and that's going to be an efficient way, then I will -- 20 MR. RUHNKE: I think that's the case, your Honor. 21 I mean, I have talked to my colleagues and I believe 22 that's -- I honestly believe that's the case. And if, upon 23 receiving the papers, your Honor decides that a half hour 24 charge conference would be an appropriate thing to conduct, we 25 can do that as well. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10120 4C85SAT1 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 What's the government's position? 3 MR. BARKOW: We have no objection and we agree with 4 Mr. Ruhnke's. 5 THE COURT: What's the government's view with respect 6 to whether the government's objections are going to be 7 relatively few? 8 MR. BARKOW: I think that ours are also going to be 9 relatively few. I can speak for myself and I think for 10 Mr. Morvillo, based on our review of the charge, we did not see 11 many things that we would pose objections to. 12 Ms. Baker is sick, as I said, and we haven't spoken 13 with her and she had not finished doing her own review of it so 14 I can't say definitively. 15 But our initial review of the charge was that we did 16 not see many things that we would be bringing to the Court's 17 attention. 18 THE COURT: Okay. When were you going get me your 19 written submission? 20 MR. RUHNKE: On the special verdict form? 21 MR. PAUL: No, on the objections or exceptions. 22 MR. RUHNKE: We propose by Friday. 23 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart will have her by close of 24 business tomorrow, your Honor. Well, let us say by 6:00 p.m. 25 tomorrow or 7:00 p.m. tomorrow. But anyway, on Thursday, so SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10121 4C85SAT1 1 your Honor will have it. 2 THE COURT: Was Mr. Ruhnke speaking for you also when 3 he said relatively few? 4 MR. TIGAR: Absolutely. Just looking at our own 5 schedule of work I wanted to let your Honor know that we would 6 have it. I joined in that. We had a conference 7 Ms. Shellow-Lavine, and client, and I have been over the last 8 several days working and, yes, we are absolutely in agreement 9 with the proposal and with Mr. Ruhnke's evaluation of the 10 situation. 11 THE COURT: Let me ask another question. I don't want 12 to preempt. Mr. Ruhnke, what are you going to tell me on the 13 issue of the special verdict form? 14 I am aware of the need to rule on any requests that 15 have been made and exceptions before the summations, but one 16 question I have is whether it is necessary for me to reach a 17 resolution with respect to the special verdict issue on 18 sentencing elements or enhancements or whatever the appropriate 19 term is, I assume. 20 MR. RUHNKE: I can answer that I don't think so. I 21 don't think it is necessary that you reach those immediately 22 and there is a couple of pragmatic considerations. The supreme 23 Court is issuing one opinion today, apparently in -- 24 MR. BARKOW: And the last order date is Monday of next 25 week. So, if they don't decide it by then, then we will know SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10122 4C85SAT1 1 that we won't know until January. 2 MR. RUHNKE: My proposal would be at least to wait to 3 see if the Court says something about Blakely, or the Booker 4 Fanfan decisions the next two orders dates, today and Monday. 5 MR. BARKOW: We agree with that. 6 THE COURT: That's at least -- I accept that. The 7 next question would be even if the Supreme Court doesn't say 8 something, when would the timing of any decision really have to 9 be made? 10 The current government proposal is that nothing 11 essentially be said to the jury on the issue before there is an 12 initial jury verdict. 13 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we are taking -- Ms. Stewart 14 will be taking the position that this issue must be decided 15 before the case is submitted to the jurors. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. TIGAR: Or should be decided, I would say. 18 THE COURT: One of the things is that the government 19 proposal really leaves up in the air what, if any procedures, 20 would be used. 21 MR. RUHNKE: Right. That's not an insignificant 22 issue. The government talks in their proposal about, well, 23 they wouldn't object to further argument to the jury and in 24 thinking that through there might be room for further evidence 25 on those issues as well. And, again, those are up in the air SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10123 4C85SAT1 1 questions. 2 So, I don't have an answer to that at this point. 3 MR. TIGAR: Ms. Stewart will be taking the what if 4 position, your Honor, in the letter we will be filing today, 5 setting out our position with respect to the issue your Honor 6 now raises. 7 THE COURT: The what if being, if there were special 8 verdict what would the procedure be? 9 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. 10 MR. RUHNKE: But then I'm wondering if we can hold off 11 until all of that at least until Monday so we can give the 12 Court a chance to rule if it is going to rule before the end of 13 December. 14 THE COURT: Okay, sure. Great. 15 Anything else? 16 MR. MORVILLO: It is extremely warm in here. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Fletcher said -- 18 MR. PAUL: I brought it to Mr. Fletcher's attention 19 first thing this morning. 20 THE COURT: To lower the temperature. 21 MR. BARKOW: If we have time we wanted to raise 22 another question and if Mr. Fletcher comes back we can pick 23 this up at a later time. 24 In terms of planning, I don't think either side, right 25 now, is confident in terms of when the direct will end or when SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10124 4C85SAT1 1 the cross will end, but the question that we had for the Court 2 is we still anticipate that our rebuttal case will take less 3 than two days and probably will fit in a day. 4 We were considering various things that we might do 5 during the rebuttal case, some of which includes a witness or 6 witnesses who would have to travel to come. I guess what we 7 wanted to ask the Court is if it turns out, for example, that 8 Mr. Sattar's testimony ends both direct and cross and redirect 9 or whatever, if it ends, say on Wednesday of next week or 10 something like that, would the Court want the government to 11 have its witnesses here on Wednesday, on Thursday? 12 The reason we ask is really simply that if we have the 13 witnesses come on, expecting to testify, perhaps on Wednesday 14 and they don't because the case doesn't end, then they would 15 probably have to stay until Monday, from Thursday to Monday. 16 It is basically a holiday weekend. 17 And we thought that for -- it is getting close to the 18 holidays and people, we will tell them to do whatever the Court 19 wants but we didn't want to have them come and then have a 20 situation where they weren't going to go or have them come 21 back, what have you. 22 THE COURT: You should continue to talk to each other 23 and the witnesses should certainly be here to begin any 24 rebuttal case after the defendants rest. 25 MR. BARKOW: Maybe my question, I didn't phrase it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10125 4C85SAT1 1 artfully enough, on the same day, the next day or -- 2 THE COURT: Same day. I mean, I don't want to lose 3 any more time. 4 I mean, if the defendants end it at noon I don't want 5 to break at noon for the rest of the day. If they finish at 6 3:00 I would rather not lose an hour and a half. 7 I know I'm going to be getting applications with 8 respect to what happens depending upon the date that you end. 9 I mean, you have already signaled that to me, right? If not 10 you, others. Others have. And I want to -- I don't want to 11 lose any time. 12 MR. BARKOW: We were just asking for our planning 13 purposes, your Honor. 14 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, just to take up on what your 15 Honor has left off with. Our understanding, from a side bar 16 that we had with your Honor previously, is that your Honor is 17 in agreement that you will not feel it appropriate to begin 18 summations if it means it is going to break up the summations 19 and the charge and the beginning of deliberations. 20 Am I misspeaking, your Honor? Because we are trying 21 to figure out our own scheduling. And, quite frankly, at this 22 point it seems as if in order to squeeze in all the summations 23 and the charge and begin deliberation, just know where to do 24 that before we shut down on the 23rd. 25 THE COURT: Well, I think what I said was I would try SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10126 4C85SAT1 1 not to break up the summations. If I went further than that I 2 may have misspoken. I just have to see where things break. 3 I don't think it would be a very good result to have a 4 summation on the 23rd and two more on the 29th and 30th and 5 then another one on January 2nd or whatever it is. 6 MR. RUHNKE: 3rd. 7 THE COURT: But if all of the summations can be given 8 the week of December the 20th, that might be very nice. 9 MR. PAUL: Optimistically, yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, we are not sitting the 11 23rd, it is the 22nd. 12 MR. BARKOW: Right. I think one of the jurors said 13 they couldn't sit on the 23rd, I think. 14 MR. PAUL: Well, do I take from your Honor's response 15 that you would consider if we can squeeze in however many, all 16 the summations in one block of time before the 23rd, that you 17 would then consider breaking from the 23rd to the 28th to bring 18 the jury back for the charge and beginning of deliberations? 19 THE COURT: It is possible. It is possible. 20 MR. PAUL: That's what we are trying to schedule. 21 So it depends on the block of time we have before we 22 begin summations as to whether we can get them all in, is what 23 we're really looking at. 24 THE COURT: That's my current view. 25 What do the parties think? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10127 4C85SAT1 1 MR. RUHNKE: Perhaps we should talk. 2 MR. PAUL: We will all talk, your Honor, because I 3 think we have all had these discussions before but we would 4 like to present it as an agreed upon position and leave it to 5 the Court to decide. 6 THE COURT: All right. Are they ready yet? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: No. 8 THE COURT: They're not ready yet, anything else? 9 I don't think there is anything that requires it be 10 under seal, it is just a question of scheduling. 11 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Thank you, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10128 4C85SAT1 1 (In open court) 2 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has stepped 3 out very briefly. 4 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, should Mr. Sattar take the 6 witness stand? 7 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 8 (Witness takes the stand) 9 (Continued on next page) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10129 4C85SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 6 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 9 are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 11 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 13 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, I would like to briefly turn back to a couple 17 of areas that you testified about yesterday. Do you recall 18 testifying yesterday about the, having in your possession 19 copies of the Sheikh's three wills? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And do you recall that, in particular, I asked you about a 22 passage yesterday in the third will which the government also 23 played during its case? 24 A. Yes, I do. 25 Q. And do you recall that was Exhibit 2057, in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10130 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Government Exhibit 2057, in evidence? 2 A. Yes, I do remember. 3 Q. Did you have, in your possession, a copy of the statement 4 we talked about yesterday on an audio tape? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And was that tape seized by the government during its 7 search of April 9th? 8 A. Yes, it was. 9 Q. And how did the, that portion of the will get on an audio 10 tape? 11 A. That audio tape had on it a press interview with the 12 Sheikh, was an Arabic magazine called Al-Majala. I'm not quite 13 sure which year was that interview but also included on that 14 tape was that will. 15 That interview, I believe, happened around 1996, 1997. 16 I'm not quite sure exactly the time frame. All I know about 17 that interview, is that it was done with that magazine with the 18 Sheikh in prison, and Nabil Elmasry was the person who attended 19 that interview with the reporter. 20 During Nasser Ahmed's case, Nasser Ahmed's case was 21 held on secret evidence he was, and then later on we learned, 22 as his lawyers learned, that he was accused of taking a message 23 out from the Sheikh and the government said, you know, that it 24 resulted in killing of tourists in Egypt and stuff like that. 25 So, it was part of our defense to bring every, for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10131 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Nasser Ahmed to bring everything. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Basis. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Relevance. And I think it's far beyond 5 the scope of the question. 6 THE COURT: No, overruled. 7 BY MR. FALLICK: 8 Q. You may continue. 9 A. So, it was part of our defense to show that other people 10 visited the Sheikh, other people had messages from the Sheikh 11 and things like that. 12 That tape I took from Mr. Elmasry and I gave to the 13 defense lawyers. It was never used in the case because after 14 that the government confirmed that, you know, they were wrong 15 and the accusation that Nasser -- 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Move to strike. 19 THE COURT: I will strike the last sentence. 20 BY MR. FALLICK: 21 Q. Just, how did you get that tape in your possession? 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Hold on. I will strike the 23 sentence beginning with "because," the end of the sentence from 24 "because" on. 25 Go ahead. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10132 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 BY MR. FALLICK: 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, just if you can, did you have a copy -- did you 3 have a copy of that tape? 4 A. Yes, I did. 5 Q. And how did you get a copy? 6 A. I got it from Nabil Elmasry and I gave it to the lawyers 7 and then after the case, Nasser Ahmed case was over, I got the 8 whole file as what I told you and it was in my possession. 9 Q. Do you recall yesterday I asked you what your position was 10 after the peace initiative was announced in 1997? 11 A. Yes, I remember that. 12 Q. Did your position, or did your opinion about the peace 13 initiative change after the attack at Luxor? 14 A. Yes, it did. 15 Q. And what was your opinion after the attack at Luxor? 16 A. I was in support of that peace initiative right after 17 Luxor. 18 What happened after Luxor, there was, as what I told 19 you, it was backed, it was -- people in Egypt, intellectuals, 20 college professors -- 21 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 THE WITNESS: Religious scholars came out in force in 24 taking the attack -- I mean in condemning the attack and asking 25 questions and pleading with the government to have what they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10133 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 were calling at the time a commission, like what happened in 2 South Africa, the truth and reconciliation commission. 3 So, everybody was in support of that. They were 4 saying let's sit down, let's talk, let's reconcile, let's save 5 Egypt of what it's going through. 6 I was one of the people that, you know, I was 7 supporting this idea very, very much. 8 THE COURT: To the extent that the last question 9 includes what other people said, it's admitted solely with 10 respect to the witness' knowledge, intent, state of mind. 11 Q. Was your position after the attack at Luxor different than 12 your position after the peace initiative was first announced in 13 1997? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Yesterday I also asked you whether both Taha and Yunis 16 believed that you were able to visit and speak with the Sheikh. 17 Do you recall that? 18 A. Yes, I remember that. 19 Q. And did you tell them -- did you tell both of them that you 20 are able to speak and visit with the Sheikh? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Was that true? 23 A. No, it's not. 24 Q. Why did you tell them that? 25 A. Because simply I was told by the Sheikh, you know, to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10134 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 just -- 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Sustained, if offered for the truth. 4 Q. At the end of the day yesterday you were testifying about 5 the March 1999 visit. Do you recall that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And do you recall that you had sent a letter to the Sheikh? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And part of that letter concerned a request by Taha about 10 the Sheikh's position concerning continuation of the 11 cease-fire? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you receive a reply back from your letter, to your 14 letter? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. How did you receive the reply back? 17 A. In points. Mohammed Yousry told me that the Sheikh as, you 18 know, replied to your letter and this is what the lawyer 19 approved and he started dictating the point that the Sheikh 20 dictated to him and I copy it. 21 Q. And after you received the reply, what did you do with it? 22 A. I told Yunis about it. 23 Q. And did you tell anyone else about it? 24 A. I told Taha about it. And I told other people, you know, I 25 mean -- it was not just, you know, points -- I mean the letter SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10135 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 was not just for Taha and Yunis. Taha and Yunis were part of 2 the letter. There were other points for other people, some for 3 his family, some for some friends here. 4 So, I just, you know, like gave everybody what, his 5 portion of the letter. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 7 Government Exhibit 1007X, in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall this conversation between 10 yourself and Mr. Hamza on March 9th, 1999 at 15:40? Is that 11 over your telephone line? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. How did that telephone call come about? 14 A. Mustafa Hamza called me. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 3 of that transcript, 16 lines 7 through 9. 17 And you say: Of course he rejected it completely. I 18 have a... also regarding the... to be aware of what is going 19 on, all what it had been said in the last period, was conveyed 20 to him exactly the same. As it is. 21 What were you referring to when you said, "of course 22 he rejected it completely"? 23 A. I'm not quite sure. 24 Q. Do you know who the "he" is? 25 A. The Sheikh. I'm talking about the Sheikh here. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10136 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And if go down to lines 11 to 14 it says, eh, I mean, the 2 point of view that... of our brother, and the points of views 3 of the other brothers as it was uttered. Like, this person 4 said so and so, and the others said so and so. This was 5 conveyed to him and he responded.... 6 What were you referring to there? 7 A. I'm referring to when I say the point of view of that of 8 our brother, I'm talking about Rifa'i Taha here, the point of 9 view of Rifa'i Taha. 10 Q. His point of view concerning what? 11 A. Concerning the peace initiative and concerning the 12 complaints that he has about the peace initiative. 13 Q. On page 4 -- page 4 line 9, Hamza says: Can you send it by 14 fax. 15 What was your understanding of what Mr. Hamza was 16 asking for? 17 A. He is asking for the points that the Sheikh was sending to 18 Rifa'i Taha, if I can send it to him by fax. 19 Q. And at lines 20 to 21 Mr. Hamza says: Okay, can you read 20 it until you prepare the fax? Read it while you are preparing 21 the fax. 22 What is your understanding of what Mr. Hamza was 23 referring to? 24 A. He is referring to the points. He wants me to read it to 25 him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10137 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And at line 22 you say: Yes, it says, "with my respect to 2 your opinion, which is very good" -- and continues on page 5 -- 3 "but you have to give some time to the brothers who are in 4 prison. 5 What were you referring to there? 6 A. I am referring to Rifa'i Taha's opinion that, you know, it 7 was sent to the Sheikh. I'm referring to this is the Sheikh's 8 answer to Rifa'i Taha. This is not my -- 9 Q. What is -- 10 A. Huh? 11 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is saying? 12 A. The Sheikh is telling him, you know, that he likes what he 13 said but he has to give time -- he likes what he -- his opinion 14 is very good. Actually this is what he is saying to him. 15 Q. It goes on to say: There is no objection to have some 16 differences. They call for the halt of violence and you don't 17 agree. No objection on that. This conflict should be handled 18 in a soft and flexible manner. 19 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 20 saying there? 21 A. The Sheikh is saying to Rifa'i, you know, you are objecting 22 to the peace initiative. You are objecting to it but, you 23 know, there is no objection for you to object. 24 Q. You go on to say: It is possible that the brothers were 25 promised things by the government which we are not aware of. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10138 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding when the Sheikh uses the 2 word, the brothers, were promised things by the government? 3 A. The Sheikh is talking about people in prison in Egypt and 4 also Muntasir Zayat, the people who were involved with the 5 peace initiative that, the new administration that was taking 6 place in Egypt at the time that they might -- that probably 7 they were promised something by the Egyptian government. 8 Q. It then goes on to say, give them a chance and give the 9 right to, to inquire until something else is approved. Then we 10 can talk. 11 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 12 saying there? 13 A. The Sheikh is urging him or telling him to give those 14 brothers chance. Gives those people chance to complete, you 15 know, their work. And then, you know, later on inquire if, 16 unless something else is proved like, you know, the negotiation 17 is going no place further, so we will talk about it later. 18 Q. Then it says, no new charter, and nothing should happen or 19 be done without consulting me or informing me. 20 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh is 21 saying there? 22 A. One of Rifa'i Taha's complaints to the Sheikh is that the 23 Islamic Group leaders in prison were writing a new charter for 24 the group to replace the old charter that we wrote in the 19 -- 25 I'm not sure when, quite some time ago. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10139 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 So he was complaining about that and the Sheikh is 2 telling him that there should be no new charter without 3 consulting with him because the Sheikh, I believe took -- if 4 you look at the Islamic Group charter, it has the Sheikh's name 5 on it. It was done under his supervision, this is what the 6 charter said. 7 So the Sheikh is telling him there is no new charter 8 without his approval. 9 Q. On line 16 to 17 you say: Yes, the other... the other 10 thing, regarding the brothers of eh... which is [sighs] 11 concerning the two brothers of the party. 12 What were you referring to there? 13 A. I was referring to Gamal Soltan, S-O-L-T-A-N and Kamal 14 Habib, H-A-B-I-B. 15 Q. And who were they? 16 A. They were two people who, in Egypt, trying to form an 17 Islamic party. They send a letter to the Sheikh back in, I 18 believe it was in January 1999. And this letter was given to 19 Abdeen Jabara. 20 So, you know, to tell the Sheikh about it. And the 21 Sheikh gave an answer to the letter. 22 Q. On page 6 of the same transcript you say: Yes, yes. Eh... 23 [reading a letter] "to the consider at two brothers; peace and 24 mercy of God be on you. I do not agree for the following 25 reasons. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10140 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was saying 3 there? 4 A. This portion of the Sheikh's letter, it is addressed to 5 those two people and the Sheikh is addressing why he does not 6 agree about forming a political party, an Islamic political 7 party in Egypt. 8 Q. And is the remainder of that page the Sheikh's response 9 about the political party? 10 A. Yes. It's about 10 points, I believe. 11 Q. And what is your understanding of why the Sheikh did not 12 agree to the formation of political parties? 13 A. There is two opinions on political parties -- I mean two 14 Islamic opinions and political parties, one opinion that 15 support the existing of political party and the thinking of 16 multiple party system will be great for the people and there is 17 another opinion who rejected totally and they say that a 18 multiple party will corrupt society. 19 The Sheikh is supporting that letter opinion, or he 20 is, you know -- that's his opinion. He does not like a 21 political party system. 22 Q. Did you, yourself, have a position in 1999 about political 23 parties? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10141 4C85SAT1 Sattar - direct 1 the cover page of the Defendant Sattar's exhibits AS-19, in 2 evidence? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize the cover page of this 5 document? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10142 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And what is this document? 2 A. It is a transcript that was taken of off my computer. 3 Q. The computer seized by the government? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This was on the hard drive of your computer? 6 A. Yes, it was. 7 Q. Do you recall what this document -- this document is in 8 Arabic? 9 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. Do you recall what this document is about? 11 A. Yes. I downloaded this document from a website that, a 12 bulletin board that I used to write on, correspond with people, 13 you write an opinion and somebody else will answer you and then 14 you will answer him back. So I was doing that on this website. 15 And I downloaded this, and I saved it on my hard drive. 16 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display to the 17 jury Sattar Exhibit AS-19-T in evidence? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me just show you the cover page of AS-19-T 20 in evidence. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is that document? 23 A. It is a translation of the previous document that was -- 24 AS-19. 25 Q. And does this document contain your position concerning SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10143 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 political parties? 2 A. Yes, it is. 3 Q. What was your position? 4 A. My position, I was in support of multiple political party 5 system within an Islamic framework. 6 Q. Was your position different from the Sheikh's position? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Did this document -- does this document touch on any other 9 subjects? 10 A. It does touch on -- I believe it does touch on democracy. 11 Q. When you say democracy, what do you mean by that? 12 A. Democracy in general, democracy as we know it here, 13 democracy as I believe it should be, and democracy within an 14 Islamic framework. One of the things that, you know, I was 15 trying to do is to say that democracy or the mechanism of 16 democracy can live in harmoney with Islam. This is what I was 17 trying to say in there. 18 Q. Was your position concerning democracy and Islam different 19 from that of the Sheikh's? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. In what respect? 22 A. Well, the Sheikh -- the western democracy as it is, the 23 Sheikh will reject it completely. The mechanism of election 24 and choosing people, the Sheikh will reject this also. They 25 have, you know -- he will speak about the shura, to consult. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10144 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 But the consultation, it is a huge word which some people say 2 that consultation is an obligation. Others in Islam say it is 3 not. I am not quite sure what the Sheikh's position is on 4 this, but I know the word democracy does not, you know, click 5 very good with him. 6 Q. Did there come a time in September 1999 when another visit 7 was arranged with the Sheikh? 8 A. In September? 9 Q. September 1999. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, are we moving off of AS-19? 11 MR. FALLICK: Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if we could have an 13 instruction to the jury that statement of others in this 14 document are not offered for the truth of the matters, just for 15 the effect on Mr. Sattar. 16 MR. FALLICK: No objection. 17 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, any references in 18 the document to statements by others are not received for their 19 truth of any of the matters said, but only with respect to the 20 knowledge, intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 21 MR. FALLICK: May I proceed now, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 24 Q. Did there come a time that in September 1999 when another 25 prison visit was arranged with the Sheikh? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10145 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you know who went on that visit? 3 A. I believe it was Mr. Ramsey Clark and Mohammed Yousry. 4 Q. And the arrangements for the visit were the same as the 5 arrangements for all prior visit? The arrangements were the 6 same for all of the prior visits? 7 A. Same. Also, in September '99, there was another visit. 8 Q. Who made that visit? 9 A. That was, I believe, the Sheikh's wife, his brother, and 10 Mohammed Nabil Elmasry. 11 Q. Who made the arrangements for that visit? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. And did you make the arrangements for the air fare and the 14 hotel and all the expenses? 15 A. In the family visit? 16 Q. Yes. 17 A. The family visit, no. I made the arrangement for the air 18 fare from Egypt to Minnesota, but Nabil took care of the 19 arrangement for the hotel. 20 Q. For the attorney visit did you make the arrangements that 21 you had in the past to the other visits? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And for this visit were you asked by anyone to pass a 24 communication to the Sheikh? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10146 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. And who asked you to pass that communication? 2 A. Taha was asking me to do that. 3 Q. And what was the communication that he asked to you pass to 4 the Sheikh? 5 A. Same, complaints -- the peace initiative, the results of 6 the peace initiative is not as good as it is expected. He is 7 complaining about people criticizing him for everything that he 8 say and whenever he writes an article people criticize him. 9 The usual complaint that we heard about. 10 Q. Did you prepare a letter for the Sheikh? 11 A. Yes, I did. 12 Q. And do you recall what was in this letter in September 13 1999? 14 A. Yes. The usual greetings. People saying hello, other 15 people saying, you know, that they love him, news from the 16 mosques. And also included Taha's communication to him. 17 Q. What did you do with this letter? 18 A. I give it to either Mr. Yousry or Mr. Clark. I am not 19 quite sure. 20 Q. And did you receive a reply back to your letter? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. From whom did you receive a reply? 23 A. I got it from Mr. Yousry. 24 Q. And after you received the reply, what, if anything, did 25 you do with it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10147 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I did the usual. I called the people who the letter was 2 addressed to. And when Taha called me, I told him about his -- 3 his part of the letter. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 5 Government Exhibit 1029X in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall this conversation between you and 8 Mr. Taha on September 20, 1999 at 7:08? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did this conversation take place after the visit to the 11 Sheikh? 12 A. I believe so, yes. 13 Q. And did you call Mr. Taha or did he call you? 14 A. No. He called me. 15 Q. Let me refer you to page 2, lines 10 and 11. It says: We 16 were supposed to stay, bracket, coughing. We were supposed to 17 stay for two days there. 18 What were you referring to there? 19 A. I'm referring to myself as, you know, that I visit the 20 Sheikh, that I visited the Sheikh. 21 Q. On line 19 it says: A statement will be issued by the eh, 22 eh, by the lawyer today? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. What were you referring to there? 25 A. I was told that Ramsey Clark is supposed to issue a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10148 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 statement about the Sheikh's dissatisfaction with the peace 2 initiative or the results of the peace initiative. 3 Q. Who told you that? 4 A. I was told by Mr. Yousry. 5 Q. Let me refer you to page 3, line 4 to 6: I mean about his 6 feelings of strong disappointment at the situation and the 7 necessity to review, bracket, stuttering, the situation in its 8 entirety, and that we, I mean the Islamic Group, is absolved of 9 anything. 10 What were you referring to in that statement? 11 A. I am referring to the Sheikh's points that were dictated to 12 me. 13 Q. What was your understanding of what the Sheikh was 14 referring to? 15 A. The Sheikh was referring to the peace initiative here. 16 Yes. I believe he was referring to the peace initiative. 17 Q. On line 8 to 10 it says: Uh. There is no uh -- I mean a 18 step has been taken for the general interest. And if the 19 general interest requires its cancellation, therefore it is to 20 be canceled. 21 That statement, is that your words or the Sheikh's 22 words? 23 A. This is the Sheikh's words. 24 Q. What is your understanding of what the Sheikh was referring 25 to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10149 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. The Sheikh was referring to the peace initiative. 2 Q. What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was 3 saying? 4 A. The Sheikh was saying, if the interest of the whole group 5 required to cancel the peace initiative, cancel the peace 6 initiative. If it requires to keep it, keep it. 7 Q. Which group are we talking about? 8 A. The Islamic Group. 9 Q. On page 5, lines 21 to 23. Mr. Taha first says: Okay. 10 The thing that will be issued, is it dictated by the man or you 11 will paraphrase it. 12 What is your understanding about what Mr. Taha is 13 saying? 14 A. Taha is asking about the statement in Arabic that's going 15 to be issued. Is it dictated word for word by the Sheikh, or 16 it is going to be paraphrased. 17 Q. And you reply: His words will supposedly be phrased. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What were you referring to there? 20 A. I'm referring to the Arabic statement of the Sheikh. 21 Q. When you say his words will supposedly be phrased, what are 22 you talking about in terms of phrasing? 23 A. The Sheikh is usually, if you know him, or you worked with 24 him, usually give you points, and tell you just put it in like 25 a frame. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10150 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. After you receive the Sheikh's responses in points, what do 2 you do with those points? 3 A. After I receive the Sheikh's responses in points, I read 4 it, and I wrote a statement in Arabic to -- I lost my train of 5 thought. I'm sorry. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I repeat the question to 7 Mr. Sattar? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Q. After you received responses back from the Sheikh in 10 points, what do you do with those points? 11 A. I phrase it in Arabic words. I put it in a statement. I 12 prepare it as a press release. 13 Q. Let me refer you to page 6, line 17 to 31: It only takes 14 one minute because we EH, bracket, continues reading. 15 What are you reading? 16 A. What -- 17 Q. Line 17 to 31. 18 A. This is the statement that I prepared. 19 Q. And you prepared that from what? 20 A. From the Sheikh's points. 21 Q. The Islamic Group has committed itself to the suspension of 22 military operations initiative which was launched two years ago 23 by the brothers from their jails, in spite of the Egyptian 24 government's continued killing of the innocent people and 25 conducting unjust military trials. This initiative was made to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10151 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 protect the Muslims and to unify all the lines to face the real 2 enemies of the nation. However, the initiative left some 3 people thinking that it was initiated out of weakness or an 4 abandonment of the fundamental principles of the group, which 5 is basically a Da'wa, Jihad group. 6 What is your understanding of the term Da'wa Jihad 7 group? 8 A. Da'wa is to teach. Jihad is a principle of Islam. There 9 is -- I have to explain the word Jihad. Jihad is a principle 10 of Islam. We say Islam is a foundation of everything in life 11 and Jihad is the highest point in Islam. Jihad could be by the 12 word, Jihad could be by hand, Jihad could be by intention, you 13 see something and you dislike. You hate it. And you just hate 14 it in your heart, that's a Jihad. Talking and expressing your 15 opinion against oppressor, that's a Jihad. Fighting in a 16 battlefield is Jihad also. 17 Q. The statement continues: The latest thing published in the 18 newspapers was about the Egyptian regime's killing of four 19 members of the group. This is -- this is enough proof that the 20 Egyptian regime does not have the intention to interact with 21 the peaceful initiative which aims at unification. I, 22 therefore, demand that my brothers, the sons of the Islamic 23 Group, do a comprehensive -- continues onto the next page -- 24 review of the initiative and its results. I also demand that 25 they consider themselves absolved from it. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10152 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 What is your understanding of what the Sheikh was 2 saying there? 3 A. The Sheikh was just basically asking for them to reveal the 4 whole peace initiative. And, as I said before, or I told I 5 believe Taha before, if it is for the interest of the group, 6 keep it. If it is not for the interest of the group, just 7 cancel it. 8 Q. Was the Sheikh's message released to the media? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you know why it wasn't? 11 A. Because at the same day I had a meeting with Mr. Ramsey 12 Clark that, as I told you, Mr. Yousry told me that Mr. Clark is 13 supposed to issue a press release. I went, I sat with 14 Mr. Clark and we spoke about it. Mr. Clark comes to the 15 conclusion that it is no good, the issue of press release. It 16 will hurt the Sheikh. It is going to isolate him more. The 17 government probably will come and cut him off from everybody. 18 So it is not in his best interest to release the statement to 19 the media. 20 Q. Even though the statement was not released to the media, 21 did you consider, in your opinion, the Sheikh's statement to be 22 a call for the Islamic Group to resume violence? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What, if anything, did you understand his statement to 25 mean? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10153 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I understand the statement to mean that the Sheikh wants a 2 review, the Sheikh wants everybody to have a dialogue and 3 see -- there was a huge bickering between two wings of the 4 group, one led by Rifa'i Taha and the other one led by the 5 people in prison and Muntasir Zayyat, and they are bickering 6 all the time on the results of the initiative. So he wants 7 this basically to end. 8 And it is also when the Sheikh is mentioning the 9 killing of the four people there, it was, in my opinion, when 10 this was going to be released to the media, it was going to 11 have an impact. It was going to show, you know -- to exert 12 pressure on the Egyptian government to respond positively to 13 the initiative. 14 Q. What was your understanding of the Sheikh's role within the 15 Islamic Group? 16 A. My understanding of the Sheikh's role is advisory role. He 17 just -- he advise and people sometimes listen and sometimes do 18 not listen. 19 Q. In your opinion or your knowledge, did he have any 20 decision-making capabilities within the Islamic Group? 21 A. I know from reading and from watching the videotapes that 22 Mr. Yousry spoke about during his testimony where the Islamic 23 Group's member or leadership sitting and telling about how they 24 take a decision and how they make a decision and stuff like 25 that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10154 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 I know that there is a shura council, which is a 2 consultation council that everything that they do, when they 3 come to a decision, everyone in this -- I am not quite sure how 4 many members there are of that council, but everyone has one 5 vote and they go with the majority. If the majority decide one 6 thing, that is what happened. And if they decide it is not 7 going to happen, it is going to stop. So I know that they go 8 with the majority rule. The Sheikh, I also know that he was 9 the head of the shura council, but he has only one vote like 10 anybody else. 11 Q. Did you yourself have any decision-making ability or 12 capacity within the Islamic Group? 13 A. No. I'm not even a member. 14 Q. How would you define your role in 1999 and 2000 in relation 15 to the Islamic Group? 16 A. I was going between them and the Sheikh. Sometimes between 17 them and the people inside and the people outside Egypt, also. 18 Q. Did that role ever change over time? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Why did you put yourself in that role? 21 A. Because I did care. I cared about my Muslim brothers. I 22 do have a bad habit -- I don't know if it is a good habit or 23 bad habit, but if I am able to help anybody who I think is in 24 need, I will step forward and I will do it. And I thought that 25 I could help people who were under bad circumstances, people SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10155 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 who have been in prison for so many years, people who have been 2 tortured. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A. People who are yearning for their freedom. And I thought 6 that I could do that. 7 Q. Did there come a time in February 2000 when another legal 8 visit was arranged with the Sheikh? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And, again, do you know who went on that visit? 11 A. It was Mr. Jabara and Mohammed Yousry. 12 Q. Who was Mr. Jabara? 13 A. Abdeen Jabara was one of the Sheikh's lawyer. 14 Q. Did you know Mr. Jabara? 15 A. Yes, I did. 16 Q. Again, were the same arrangements made by you for this 17 trip? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Prior to this visit, did anyone ask you to relay a 20 communication to the Sheikh? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And who asked you? 23 A. The usual people, you know, they say hello, the news from 24 the mosque, Taha also included. 25 Q. What was Taha's request? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10156 4C8MSAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Taha requests that when the Sheikh issued or when the 2 Sheikh, on his previous message, when he asked for review, he 3 was reviewing the initiative. And also I believe Mustafa Hamza 4 at that time was reviewing the initiative. So there was a 5 review that was faxed to me through, you know -- what the 6 initiative resulted; and if the initiative is canceled, the 7 ramification of it; if the initiative is in place, what the 8 people will gain from it. I wrote a letter to the Sheikh and I 9 included that page or that review to it. 10 Q. Again, do you recall who you gave your letter to? 11 A. I am not sure. Either Yousry -- I believe Mohammed Yousry. 12 I am not quite sure. 13 Q. Do you recall if you received a reply back to your letter? 14 A. No. 15 Q. No, meaning what? 16 A. No reply. I received just words, you know -- 17 Q. You know why you did not receive a reply back to this 18 letter? 19 A. Because Abdeen Jabara refused to read the letter. 20 Q. Do you know why Mr. Jabara refused to read the letter? 21 A. I was never told why. He just -- 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, we are about to begin 23 another visit. It is a good time for a break. 24 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will take ten 25 minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10157 4C8MSAT2 1 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 2 don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to keep an 3 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I have 4 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 5 begin your deliberations. 6 See you soon. 7 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 8 jury room. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: The witness may step down. 11 One item. Have a seat just for a second. 12 I sustained an objection to a question which was: 13 What did the Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman say to Mr. Sattar? That 14 was in connection with the questions of why he told Mr. Taha 15 and Mr. Hamza that he had spoken with the Sheikh or was able to 16 speak with the Sheikh. And I sustained the objection and said: 17 If offered for the truth, what Sheikh Rahman said offered for 18 the truth is hearsay. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I am going to go back as to 20 Mr. Sattar's state of mind why he said that. It comes out 21 later. 22 THE COURT: I just wanted to point it out. I was 23 sustaining it offered for the truth, but not if there was a 24 nonhearsay purpose such as something is said and he does 25 something because of what is said to him. And I don't know if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10158 4C8MSAT2 1 what is said has such truthful content that you can't 2 distinguish the fact of what was said from the truth of what 3 was said so that there is a 403 objection. I just point that 4 out. 5 Did you want to make any proffer with respect to that? 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I may get back to that 7 later. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 See you shortly. 10 (Recess) 11 (Page 10159 SEALED by order of the Court) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10160 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Mr. Sattar is on 2 the stand and let's bring in the jury. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I may need a short break 4 before we break for the lunch hour today. 5 THE COURT: That's fine. 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 8 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 9 Mr. Fletcher? 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 11 you are still under oath. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 14 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Was there another visit arranged with the Sheikh for May 17 19th and May 20th? 18 A. May 19 and May 20th? 19 Q. Of 2000? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you recall who went on that visit? 22 A. Was Lynne Stewart and Mohammed Yousry. 23 Q. Were the same arrangements made for, as was with the prior 24 visits? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10161 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Prior to this visit, did anyone ask you to relay a 2 communication to the Sheikh? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Who was that? 5 A. The usual people. 6 Q. Who are the usual people? 7 A. Taha, friends of the Sheikh's, some of his kids, his 8 family. 9 Q. And do you recall what Mr. Taha's message was? 10 A. The usual complaints about, you know, his -- complaint 11 about the criticism of the people in Egypt of him, you know, 12 when every time he issues a statement, especially, but this 13 time he was complaining more because he issued a statement and 14 they thought it was harsh criticizing the Egyptian government 15 about some kind of demonstrations in Egypt. He wants, you 16 know, the Sheikh to be more clear on his position, you know, 17 what he wanted to do. And he, you know, he's asking for -- 18 clearly he is asking for moral support. He is asking the 19 Sheikh just I want you on my side. 20 That's what he was trying to do. 21 Q. Like in the prior prison visits, did you prepare a letter? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Was that letter in English or in Arabic? 24 A. It's in Arabic. 25 Q. Whom did you give that letter to? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10162 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 A. I give it -- I'm not sure. Either Yousry or Ms. Stewart. 2 I'm not -- 3 Q. And, did you receive a reply back to your letter? 4 A. I did. 5 Q. And in what form did you receive a reply back? 6 A. Same thing. You know, it was dictated to me, I wrote it 7 down like the previous visits. 8 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 9 Government Exhibit 1707X? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that 1707X is the second 12 transcript to the videotape that was shown here concerning the 13 prison visit on May 19th? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 27. 16 Page 27, line 11 through 13. 17 And Mr. Yousry says, [pointing to the paper] we have 18 about half an hour left. [Holds the same paper up, flips it up 19 and puts it down] I want to read the letter to you because it's 20 about two pages. 21 Mr. Sattar, you were in the courtroom when the 22 government played the videotape? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did you know what letter Mr. Yousry was referring to here? 25 A. I believe he was referring to my letter to the Sheikh. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10163 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me refer you to page 28, the same transcript, lines 12 2 through 17 and Mr. Yousry said, you asked about during the 3 former visit, I will try my best to get you the answer for 4 them. 5 As for the family in Egypt, they are all fine. As for 6 Mohammed and Ahmed, Mohammed had a baby, he named him Omar. We 7 pray God to bless him and grant that this name leads him to 8 follow -- 9 What is your understanding what Mr. Yousry is reading? 10 A. He is reading my letter to the Sheikh. 11 Q. And this passage concerns what? 12 A. This passage concerns the Sheikh's family. Mohammed is his 13 older son, Ahmed is his older son and the baby is the Sheikh's 14 grandson. 15 Q. Did all of your letters that you sent to the Sheikh contain 16 information about his family? 17 A. Yes. 18 90 percent or 85 percent -- at least 85 percent of my 19 letters to the Sheikh concerning his family, the mosque, the 20 Muslim community here, what we are doing, we are having some 21 study circles and we -- give him just, you know, regular -- 22 just regular news. 23 Q. Let me refer to you page 31, this will be lines 12 through 24 15, and it is Mr. Yousry saying -- 25 A. Just -- Mr. Fallick? I cannot see. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10164 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Line 12 through 15, and says: [Mr. Yousry continues 2 reading]: Attached to this letter is an article written by the 3 former consul of Egypt to New York, Abdullah sent it to me from 4 Egypt. [hand motion to Rahman] That is the one that I read to 5 you, sir. 6 What is your understanding about what Mr. Yousry is 7 referring to here? 8 A. He is referring to an article that was published -- not an 9 article actually, it was a letter from his son Abdullah, and he 10 was talking about -- about an Egyptian ambassador. He was 11 general counsel to the Egyptian consulate here in New York and 12 he was bad-mouthing the Sheikh in Egypt. 13 Q. And did you attach that article to your letter? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And Mr. Yousry is just reading what you attached to that 16 letter? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. I refer you to page 33 and let me go back to page 31. 19 Go to page 33, I'm sorry, and it is the bottom of the 20 page, the lines 30 to 32, it reads: Mr. Yousry again reading 21 in [reading] -- 22 And again, Mr. Sattar, is it your understanding 23 Mr. Yousry is reading your letter to the Sheikh? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. "My communications increased during the past year. I have SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10165 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 semi-constant contact with Abu Yasir, Abu Hazim, Abu Mus'ab, 2 Abu Harith, Abu Ithak, Abu Khalid -- and on page 34, beginning 3 on top, Abu Mustafa and many other brothers, thank God. If 4 there is anything, please notify. 5 Mr. Sattar, who are these men who you have just 6 described, talked about? 7 I'm sorry, who are these men you have just written 8 about? 9 A. All of them or most of them beside Abu Nasser and Abu 10 Hazim, these are all people that they knew the Sheikh. Some of 11 them reside in Europe or let's say, you know, most of them 12 reside in Europe except for, I believe, Abu Yasir and Abu Hazim 13 which Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha and Abu Hazim is Mustafa Hamza. 14 Q. And when you say you have, when you wrote in your letter 15 that you had semi-constant contact with him, what were you 16 referring to? 17 A. I was referring to I have contact with those people. Some 18 of them I have direct contact and some of them I don't have 19 direct contact with. 20 But I know those people are, they know the Sheikh and 21 the Sheikh knows of them. 22 Q. Were they calling you or were you calling them? 23 A. I never called any one of them, actually. They always call 24 me. 25 Q. On lines 2 through 14, it just continues: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10166 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Number ten. Abu Yasir called me the day before 2 yesterday. He still asks for Your Honor's moral support to his 3 position, particularly at this time after three years have 4 passed since the initiative that did not produce big results 5 was issued. I had explained to you, sir, his viewpoint before. 6 Back then, you asked him to commit himself, and to give his 7 brothers a chance. Up 'till now the man is committed but I 8 don't think he will be able to remain quiet longer than that. 9 I sent to you, sir, the statement he issued on Al-Azhar 10 University incidents, which exposed to him the criticism of 11 some brothers, eh, particularly, because of its strong language 12 [hand motion to Stewart]. 13 What were you referring to in your letter in that 14 part? 15 A. I am referring to what Rifa'i Taha told me to tell the 16 Sheikh and I am just putting a few other things, you know, that 17 they are to explain. You know, what the men want, what Rifa'i 18 Taha wants from the Sheikh. 19 Q. What was your understanding that Rifa'i Taha wanted from 20 the Sheikh? 21 A. It is so clear here that all I wanted -- all he wants is 22 his moral support and to stop the criticism. 23 Basically you know, they want to just to shut him up, 24 the other side, the other side wants to shut Rifa'i Taha up so 25 he is complaining about this and he is asking the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10167 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 moral support. 2 Q. Who is the other side? 3 A. The other side is the people in prison, Egypt, the Islamic 4 Group leaders in prison, Muntasir Al-Zayat. Now I know it is 5 Mustafa Hamza also. 6 Every one of them wanted Rifa'i to shut up. 7 Q. And what did they want him -- what was your understanding 8 of what they wanted him to keep quiet about? 9 A. My understanding, it was the deal between them or the 10 Egyptian government did not like the way that Rifa'i was 11 talking. You know, he is coming out, you know, and attacking 12 the government in harsh words, saying, you know, things that 13 the government does not like, and they just wanted him -- you 14 know, they felt that he was spoiling their, what they were 15 trying to do. 16 Q. Let me refer you to page 35 and this will be here on lines 17 6. Mr. Yousry says: 18 She says it is easy to say so, sir, but when we sit to 19 eat we eat a lot [laughs] all right, Sir, um... [resumes 20 reading]. 21 What is your understanding what Mr. Yousry is resuming 22 to read? 23 A. He is resuming reading my letter, my letter to the Sheikh. 24 Q. "Which exposed him to strong language, criticism of some 25 brothers, though he didn't say anything other than what is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10168 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 supposed to be said. He therefore asks for your 2 straightforward opinion." 3 "He" meaning who? 4 A. Rifa'i Taha. 5 Q. "Sir, especially that you know that the man has his massive 6 weight among many brothers; and that if the regime worries 7 about anyone, it is Abu Yasir." 8 Who is Abu Yasir? 9 A. Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha. 10 Q. When you wrote in your letter that the man has his massive 11 weight among many brothers and that if the regime worries about 12 anyone it is Abu Yasir, what were you referring to? 13 A. I am referring to Abu Yasir was a very well known leader of 14 the Islamic Group to the regime. If the regime worries, if the 15 regime is afraid of anybody they are afraid of Rifa'i Taha. 16 Q. Who is the regime? 17 A. The Egyptian regime. If the Egyptian regime is afraid of 18 anybody they are afraid of Rifa'i Taha. 19 Q. Why would they be afraid of Rifa'i Taha? 20 A. Because during the war period that I was talking about from 21 1990 until 1997, Rifa'i Taha is the one who was leading this, 22 he was the leader of the Islamic Group during this period of 23 time. 24 So he actually -- so the regime knew what he can do. 25 So they are afraid of him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10169 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 One more thing that I want to add to this. On the 2 previous segment that you showed me, when I was saying to the 3 Sheikh that Rifa'i Taha is committed, I meant that he is 4 committed to the peace initiative. He is not going to do 5 anything that's out of the line of the Islamic Group, but he is 6 not going to be committed for a long time. He will speak out. 7 What I meant by speaking out, that he will expose some 8 of the Islamic Group leaders in Egypt. He will speak against 9 them. 10 Q. You wrote in your letter that the Egyptian regime would be 11 worried about Abu Yasir? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Did you understand that when he was the leader of the 14 Islamic Group in the early '90s that he authorized and 15 committed acts of violence? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you know those acts of violence included murder? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you knew that at the time that you were writing this 20 letter? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you knew that at the time you were speaking with him? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Your letter goes on to say: 25 I had told him and the other brothers about your SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10170 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 request, sir, concerning the evaluation of the initiative. He 2 had the same opinion. It is clear, though, that those who push 3 to go by the initiative are the brothers in Liman, even though 4 they are very few. 5 Who are the brothers in Liman? 6 A. The Liman -- 7 Q. Sorry. 8 A. -- it is a famous prison in Egypt. So, the brothers in 9 prison. 10 Q. "And the [articulating as he corrects himself] no, the 11 brothers in Liman and very few others outside. Abu Yasir is of 12 the opinion that the group has to well utilize the initiative 13 paper. 14 What did you mean when you wrote to the Sheikh that 15 Abu Yasir is of the opinion that the group has to well utilize 16 the initiative paper? 17 A. Abu Yasir was in the opinion of to use the initiative card 18 to exert pressure on the government to come to a political 19 solution. Use the thread that, you know, the initiative would 20 be cancelled. The initiative, you know, it is not working so 21 talking in the newspapers against the initiative and utilize 22 him. 23 Basically, he was a bad boy. He is a bad guy. Use -- 24 he said it so many times in so many conversations. Use me as 25 the bad boy. Use me as a foil, all right, so he can get some SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10171 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 results from the Egyptian government. 2 Q. The letter continues: 3 The least to do is to allow media escalation and to 4 demonstrate disgust at the way the situation ended up, 5 especially that the most they allow now is some improvement 6 in -- 7 A. I'm sorry, Mr. Fallick. I'm not following you. 8 Q. I'm sorry. I'm at line 20. 9 A. Okay. 10 Q. And we will start again, "The least," do you see that? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. "The least to do is to allow media escalation and to 13 demonstrate disgust at the way the situation ended up, 14 especially that the most they allow now is some improvement in 15 prisons, permission of visits, and release of some prisoners. 16 What were you referring to in those lines? 17 A. I'm referring to what Rifa'i Taha is asking, is asking to 18 escalate in the media, is asking, you know, to continue what he 19 has been doing criticizing the government and expressing his 20 opinion, playing the role of a tough guy. 21 And especially, you know, in his opinion that, you 22 know, he said that the results of the initiative was not enough 23 and in his opinion or in, through the calls there is over 24 35,000 or 40,000 Egyptian prisoners that -- and in prison with 25 no charges. He was asking for, to release all of them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10172 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Or, when people initiated this initiative they were 2 under the impression that, you know, these prisoners will be 3 released. None of this having, a few, about 2500 prisoners at 4 the time were released and that's it. 5 Q. What was your understanding of Rifa'i Taha's desire to 6 escalate in the media? 7 A. To use threats that the, they're going to go back to the 8 pre-Luxor period to use, for instance, that the Egyptian 9 government is not responding in a positive way to the Islamic 10 Group initiative. 11 So, you know, utilizing the media, you know, to 12 communicate his point of view to the Egyptian government. 13 Q. Let me refer you now to page 36 of the transcript and we 14 will start on lines 12 -- lines 14 to 21. 15 Do you see that, Mr. Sattar? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. It says: 18 Brother Abu Yasir and many other brothers think that 19 all of these things need you to have a more forceful position, 20 no objection to the formation of a team that calls for 21 cancellation of the initiative or makes threats or escalates 22 things. Please, your Eminence, say your opinion about this. 23 Dictate some points. We can announce it in a press conference 24 with Lynne. And if you don't want to announce them, please let 25 Lynne know that. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10173 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 What were you referring to -- what was Mr. Taha 2 referring to when he said, "no objection to the formation of a 3 team that calls for cancellation of the initiative or makes 4 threats or escalates things"? 5 A. He is basically telling the Sheikh that he does not have 6 any objection to work with some other people, you know, other 7 people from the Islamic Group to form a team from both sides to 8 call to, for cancellation of the initiative or even threat to 9 go back to escalate things or to go back to the pre-1997 10 period. 11 Q. Was the initiative ever cancelled? 12 A. No. 13 Q. When you, in your letter when you write, dictate: Please, 14 your Eminence, say your opinion about this, dictate some 15 points. We can announce it in a press conference with Lynne 16 and if you don't want to announce them, please let Lynne know 17 that. 18 What were you referring to there? 19 A. I am asking the Sheikh to answer Rifa'i Taha. If he wants, 20 it's up to him, state your opinion. If your opinion is still 21 in support of this, of the initiative, I'm going to go out, I'm 22 going to basically, you know, relay the message and, you know, 23 you are in support. 24 If you want it, if you want to support Rifa'i's 25 position and use a tough tone, I will do, I will take it out. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10174 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 And, you know, if you don't want me to take it out we can, as 2 usual, you know, you could tell Lynne to have a press 3 conference like what Ramsey Clark did before and announce the 4 things. 5 Q. Did you care one way or the other whether there was a press 6 conference? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Did you care one way or the other what the Sheikh's 9 position was? 10 A. No. To me it doesn't matter what the Sheikh's position 11 was. 12 MR. FALLICK: May I have a moment, your Honor, to 13 speak with Mr. Paul? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (Counsel conferring) 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me show you lines 23, 24, and it just says: 17 Number Eleven: He wrote it at night. He says, sir, that he is 18 doing a business project, it is a good one and so, eh. 19 Again, do you know what Mr. Yousry is translating 20 about number eleven? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Is that part of your letter? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Does that go back to some personal matters with the Sheikh? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10175 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Just one second, Mr. Fallick, before we go to number 2 eleven. I just want to also clarify one thing about the 3 Sheikh. Whatever the Sheikh was going to say whether I agree 4 with or I don't disagree with, I was going to send it out the 5 way it is. There is no -- I have no concern whatsoever of the 6 Islamic Group policy. 7 Q. Do you know if Ms. Stewart cared one way or another about 8 the Sheikh's response? 9 A. She doesn't -- 10 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. Foundation. Stricken. 12 Q. Prior to this prison visit, did you discuss this letter 13 with Ms. Stewart? 14 A. I told her I was sending a letter to the Sheikh. 15 Q. Did you discuss the details of the letter? 16 A. The details, no. Not in details. 17 Q. Do you know if she knew who Rifa'i Taha was? 18 A. I never spoke to her or mentioned the name Rifa'i Taha or 19 Abu Nasser or Mustafa Hamza or Yasir Al-Sirri or any name that, 20 you know, besides Muntasir Al-Zayat to her. Never mentioned. 21 Q. Now, I believe you testified you did receive a reply to 22 your letter from the Sheikh? 23 A. Yes, I did. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1710X? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10176 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is the cover page to the videotape of the 3 prison visit dated the second day, May 20, 2000. 4 Do you recall seeing that videotape played in the 5 courtroom? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. I refer you to page 48, lines 7 through 9, and it says 8 "Abdel Rahman, okay [dictating] Brother Muntasir [pause] what 9 use is the initiative [pause], where we declared the halt of 10 violence [pause] hah? 11 Who was the Sheikh dictating a letter to? 12 A. Muntasir Al-Zayat. 13 Q. Why was he dictating a letter to Muntasir Al-Zayat? 14 A. Muntasir has, through the '80s and the '90s become a very 15 well known figure in the Islamic movement. He has a 16 relationship, a friendly relationship with the Sheikh. He was 17 the Sheikh's lawyer also in Egypt taking care of his family 18 business and his legal problems in Egypt. 19 Q. Other than the Sheikh dictating a letter to Muntasir 20 Al-Zayat, do you recall whether he dictated a letter to anyone 21 else? 22 A. To Abu Yasir. Rifa'i Taha. 23 Q. Now, following your, following the may visit, you testified 24 you received a response back to your letter? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10177 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Who did you receive the response back from? 2 A. The usual. 3 Q. What does that mean, the usual? 4 A. I saw Yousry and he says this was approved and this is what 5 the Sheikh wants you to have; dictated the thing to me; I wrote 6 it down. 7 Q. After you wrote it down, what did you do with the Sheikh's 8 response? 9 A. I kept it for a while with me. I did not do anything with 10 it, you know, for a little period of time because I was -- I 11 was told, you know -- I mean that part of the letter to 12 Muntasir Al-Zayat and to Yasir, I did not tell anybody about it 13 right away. I just kept it with me for a few days because I 14 was told also that there is going to have a press conference 15 and she is going to release another, a statement by the Sheikh 16 that the Sheikh told her to announce a few points and she was 17 going to do that. 18 Q. What were you told that Ms. Stewart was going to announce? 19 What were you told that Ms. Stewart was going to announce to 20 the press? 21 A. That the Sheikh's dissatisfaction of the peace initiative 22 results and is he going to withdraw his support of the peace 23 initiative. 24 Q. Who told you that? 25 A. Mr. Yousry. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10178 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Now, after sitting on the response for a couple days, what, 2 if anything, did you do with it? 3 A. What did I? Well, I spoke to Muntasir Al-Zayat first and I 4 spoke to him about it for -- I'm not quite sure how many days 5 after, but I spoke to Muntasir about it. 6 Q. And did you speak to anyone else? 7 A. Yes, the same day that, after I finished with Muntasir a 8 few hours later I get a phone call from Yunis. 9 Q. Other than Yunis, did you speak to anyone else? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Who? 12 A. After I told Yunis about it I read the Sheikh's response to 13 him. I told Rifa'i Taha, he called me, I think, you know, a 14 couple of days after that and I told him about it. 15 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 16 Government Exhibit 1094X, in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. FALLICK: I will wait one minute until 19 Mr. Morvillo finds his copy of it. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you. 21 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1094X, in evidence, is dated 22 May 29th, 2000, at 18:10, and this is a conversation between 23 you, Mr. Taha and Salah Hashim. 24 Do you recall this conversation? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10179 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Was this conversation after the May visit with the Sheikh? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And first, who was Salah Hashim? 4 A. Salah Hashim is, if there is somebody to be called the 5 founder of the Islamic Group it is Salah Hashim is the founder 6 of the Islamic Group. 7 He founded the Islamic Group. He lived in Egypt. He 8 was arrested for a little period of time and then, you know, 9 released and renounced politics and everything. 10 And he stayed home for a long period of time until he 11 actually initiated -- or he was -- him and Muntasir Al-Zayat 12 were the architects of the peace initiative. 13 Q. Let me refer to you page 2 of this transcript, the first 14 line, 9, and you say: Yesterday, I called Muntasir. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What are you referring to there? 17 A. I am referring to Muntasir Al-Zayat. 18 Q. On lines 15 to 16 you say: Next day in the morning, today, 19 in the morning, at dawn, your brother called me. 20 First, who are you speak to go? 21 A. I'm speaking to Rifa'i Taha. 22 Q. When you say you brother called me, who are you referring 23 to? 24 A. I'm referring to Yunis. 25 Q. Then, lines 18 it says he said what is going on. I told SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10180 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 him, by God, this is what we got. 2 What are you referring to there? 3 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's letter to Muntasir and Abu 4 Yasir. 5 Q. And the letter concerns what? 6 A. The peace initiative. 7 Q. And then at the bottom at line 22 to -- 20 to 22, you say: 8 He said how come, and these things should not be told to the 9 people outside and should not be told to the media. I told him 10 that I can't stop anyone from expressing his opinion. 11 Who were you referring to when you said "he said"? 12 A. I'm referring to Yunis. 13 Q. In your understanding, what is that? 14 A. Yunis did not want the letter to go outside to the media. 15 Q. And which letter is that? 16 A. The Sheikh's letter to Muntasir. 17 Q. On page 3 of the same transcript at line 7 through 9 it 18 says: But the lawyer we hold a... she is going to meet some 19 reporters from Arabic newspapers, and she will announce the 20 current point of view. The summary of the point of view... 21 What are you referring to there? 22 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's point of view. 23 Q. And who is the lawyer? 24 A. Ms. Stewart. 25 Q. On page 4 you say, at line 4: They are not allowed to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10181 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 subdue this point of view... 2 Taha replies: Eh. 3 What are you referring to there? 4 A. I'm not quite sure. 5 Q. It goes on in lines 6 and 7, you say: And the result of 6 the... the... that nothing good came out of this initiative and 7 it did not get any results. 8 What are you referring to? 9 A. I'm referring to the Sheikh's point of view, what the 10 Sheikh said, you know, and to Ms. Stewart and, in that visit. 11 Q. Well, you are referring to the Sheikh's response to your 12 letter, is that correct? 13 A. The Sheikh's response. I'm not sure that I'm talking about 14 the letter exactly. I think I'm talking about, in general 15 term, about the Sheikh's understanding, the Sheikh's point of 16 view, the dissatisfaction of the whole situation. 17 Q. And this statement that you sent to Mr. Muntasir, do you 18 recall what was in that statement? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was in that statement? 21 A. The Sheikh's, the dissatisfaction with peace initiative, 22 the Sheikh's asking to escalate in the media, the Sheikh's 23 asking if the Islamic Group can still do some work. 24 Q. In your letter to Mr. Muntasir was your letter to 25 Mr. Muntasir different from what you were telling Yunis and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10182 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Taha? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did there come a time that you had a conversation with 4 anyone concerning releasing the Sheikh's opinion to the press? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And when was that? 7 A. That was -- I had so many conversations, actually, about 8 releasing the Sheikh's opinion to the press. I had 9 conversation with Mr. Yousry, I had conversation with Lynne. I 10 had -- I attended conversation with Mr. Clark. 11 We were all talking about, you know, if there is any 12 ramification, if this is going to hurt the Sheikh in any way. 13 If this is going to isolate the Sheikh more. If this is going 14 to cut all contacts with him. 15 And everybody agreed -- 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. Was there agreement that a statement should be released to 19 the press concerning the Sheikh's opinion? 20 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Leading. Same 21 objection as well. 22 THE COURT: Sustained as to form. 23 Q. Were arrangements made to release a statement to the press? 24 A. The arrangement was made to call some reporter and just 25 tell him, you know, what the Sheikh wants to say, this is the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10183 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 Sheikh's opinion on this. And that's it. 2 Q. And who made those arrangements? 3 A. Call the reporter, I did call the reporter. 4 Q. And who was the reporter? 5 A. It was Esmat Salaheddin. 6 Q. Why did you call him? 7 A. He was -- Esmat Salaheddin was a Cairo-based reporter for 8 Reuters. Reuters, is, in my opinion, a reputable news 9 organization. I didn't want the Sheikh's opinion to go to an 10 Arabic newspaper first and then they will add their things to 11 it. 12 So I wanted just, you know, some news agency that you 13 can trust to be sent to. 14 Q. And was the call made to him? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And how did that come about? 17 A. I went to Ms. Stewart's office, I sat with her there. I 18 called -- I used my phone card to call Mr. Salaheddin. I spoke 19 to him for about a minute introducing him to Ms. Stewart and 20 she took the call from there. 21 Q. Do you recall what Ms. Stewart said to Mr. Salaheddin? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. What does she say? 24 A. I believe she told him about, that the Sheikh is, was 25 withdrawing his support of the peace initiative and that he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10184 4C85SAT3 Sattar - direct 1 dissatisfied with everything that's going on there, or what the 2 Egyptian government is doing to the people there in Egypt. 3 Q. And do you know if Mr. Salaheddin wrote an article 4 concerning the Sheikh's opinion? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 7 Government Exhibit -- a part of Government Exhibit, in 8 evidence, 2657? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 BY MR. BARKOW: 11 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what Government Exhibit 2657, in 12 evidence, is? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. What is it? 15 A. It is the Reuters report on what Ms. Stewart said. 16 Q. Did the report say that the article said -- 17 A. I cannot hear you, Mr. Fallick. 18 Q. The article, right, that the Sheikh is withdrawing his 19 support for the cease-fire? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Continued on next page) 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10185 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. After Ms. Stewart's phone call to Mr. Salaheddin, did you 2 talk to him also? 3 A. Yes, I did. 4 Q. And what did you say to him? 5 A. I thanked him for his time and I hang up with him. 6 Q. Following this call and following publication of the 7 article in Reuters, did you give the statement to anyone? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who did you give it to? 10 A. I spoke to the Arabic press. 11 Q. What did you say to the Arabic press? 12 A. I told them basically what Ms. Stewart said in her 13 interview with Reuters. 14 Q. And were articles published? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And did the articles attribute the statement to 17 Ms. Stewart? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And was that true? 20 A. No, it was not. 21 Q. Who are the articles attributed to? Who should the 22 articles have been attributed to? 23 A. Me. 24 Q. Did you support the Sheikh's statement? 25 A. Did I support the Sheikh's statement? I have no opinion on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10186 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 the Sheikh's statement. 2 Q. What was the reaction, if any, to the Sheikh's statement 3 after it was announced to the press? 4 A. It was huge. 5 Q. What do you mean by huge? 6 A. It was a huge reaction. I mean, I never expected to be 7 that big. It was people saying, no, he did not say that. 8 Other people saying, yes, he did. People saying, no. We don't 9 believe that he was withdraw his support. People attacking me 10 personally, accusing me of being a CIA agent, attacking my 11 credibility and my integrity, attacking everything that I ever 12 worked for, getting phone calls from everywhere. It was big. 13 I never seen anything like that during my years of dealing with 14 the Sheikh. 15 Q. Why, in your opinion, were people attacking you? 16 A. Well, as what I said or what I know, there is -- there was 17 a conflict within the Islamic Group between two groups, two 18 factions. There was the Sheikh right there. He is the 19 spiritual leader of the Islamic Group. Everybody wants to pull 20 this man to his side. If they cannot succeed in doing that, 21 they will attack the other faction, but in a way directly 22 attack each other. So it is easy for them to attack somebody 23 who is not a member of the group or who is not -- does not 24 belong to their group. 25 So the attack was toward me, saying that I am such and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10187 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 such. I am a CIA agent, I am a spy, I am dishonest person. 2 And instead of saying, you know, attack a person like Rifa'i 3 Taha or attacking a person like the Sheikh, it is easier for 4 them to say those things about me. 5 Q. After learning of the reaction to the statement that was 6 released to the media, what, if anything, was done? 7 A. I spoke to Mr. Yousry. I was in a very bad shape. And you 8 know, I asked if the Sheikh can clear his position on this. I 9 also received phone calls from the Sheikh's son, you know, 10 asking for clarification, too, or asking the Sheikh to stay 11 away from that conflict. 12 Q. Did the Sheikh ever issue a clarification? 13 A. Yes, he did. 14 Q. And when did he do that? 15 A. I am not quite sure of the date, but it was some time after 16 the June 13th -- 17 Q. How did you become aware of the Sheikh's clarification? 18 A. I was at the office when the Sheikh made this phone call. 19 Q. When you say, at the office, whose office? 20 A. I was at Ms. Stewart's office sitting outside in the 21 reception area because I'm not allowed to be sitting where the 22 phone is, where she is taking the call. It was Mr. Yousry. 23 Q. And after this phone call, were you told -- what were you 24 told about the Sheikh's clarification? 25 A. The Sheikh clarified his statement. The Sheikh said that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10188 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 it was not a call for violence. He gave a few points. I took 2 a few points from Mohammed and I wrote them down. 3 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 4 Government Exhibit 2663 in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what Government 2663 in evidence 7 is? 8 A. It is a press release. 9 Q. And the press release concerning what? 10 A. Concerning the Sheikh's clarification. 11 Q. And who was the press release issued to? 12 A. It was issued to the media. 13 Q. Let me show you paragraph 4. Do you have that before you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And let me read that: Even though the Egyptian government 16 is still killing the innocents and not releasing the detainees 17 from arbitrary imprisonment, and even though they are 18 terrifying people in their homes and other criminal acts 19 continue, I did not cancel the ceasefire. I do withdraw my 20 support to the initiative. I expressed my opinion and left the 21 matter to my brothers to examine it and study it because they 22 are the ones who live there and they know the circumstances 23 where they live better than I. I also ask them not to repress 24 any other opinion within the Gama'a, even if that is a minority 25 opinion. This is the way we have been since we founded this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10189 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Gama'a, and we should continue to be open to all opinions. 2 What is your understanding about what the Sheikh was 3 saying there? By the way, was this the Sheikh's statement? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What is your understanding? 6 A. My understanding is that the Sheikh is saying that even 7 though that he withdraw his support for the ceasefire or the 8 peace initiative, but this is just his opinion. He does not 9 have -- he is not a policy maker for the Gama'a. If the Gama'a 10 al-Islamiya wants to -- everything is in the Gama'a's leader's 11 hand. 12 Q. When the Sheikh said, I also asked them not to repress any 13 other opinion with the Gama'a, even if that is a minority 14 opinion, what was your understanding about what he was 15 referring to? 16 A. He was referring to the Rifa'i Taha opinion. He was asking 17 the Gama'a to let the other opinion express itself. If 18 somebody wants to express a different opinion, even if it is a 19 minority opinion, let it be. 20 Q. Let me refer you to paragraph 2 where it says: I declare 21 that Ahmed Sattar is a Muslim brother who has worked with me 22 all these years and even on my case as a paralegal. I trust 23 him with everything I have; to the degree that he holds my 24 power of attorney to act on my behalf and he is the executor of 25 my will, I trust him to give advice to my children in my SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10190 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 absence, transfer my body when I die and to pay off my debts. 2 I testify that he does not speak anything but the truth. To 3 those who accuse him of being an agent, I tell them to fear 4 Allah and do not say anything that they are not certain of and 5 to watch their tongues. 6 In your opinion, why did the Sheikh have to make that 7 statement? 8 A. He was replying to the reports that were accusing me of 9 being a CIA agent and not trustworthy. 10 Q. Do you believe that either of the Sheikh's statement, his 11 first statement after the May prison visit and his 12 clarification statement concerning his withdrawal of support 13 for the ceasefire, called for any violent activity on behalf of 14 the Islamic Group? 15 A. No. 16 Q. In your opinion, what did it call for? 17 A. It called for a dialogue, it called for -- it was like 18 throwing a rock in a still water just to create a wave, to 19 create some kind of movement. The situation in Egypt was at a 20 standstill. This is what the Sheikh's statement did. 21 Q. Did there come a time when you yourself were asked about 22 your opinion of the Sheikh's statement concerning withdrawal of 23 support for the ceasefire? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when was that? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10191 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 A. I am not sure of the date exactly, but I know it was in 2 June. 3 Q. By whom were you asked? 4 A. I was asked by Al-Jazeera. 5 Q. What is Al-Jazeera? 6 A. Al-Jazeera is a TV satellite channel. It is a news 7 channel. It is based in Qatar and it is broadcast worldwide. 8 Q. Why did they ask you -- why, if you know, did they ask you 9 for your comment? 10 A. They did not ask me directly. They called Yassir Al-Sirri 11 first and I received a call from Yassir Al-Sirri asking me if I 12 wanted to speak with them. So I understood that it was either 13 me to speak to them or Muntasir Zayyat will speak to them. And 14 at this time Muntasir was at the other end attacking my 15 credibility and attacking me. So I preferred to speak to them. 16 I said yes, I will speak to them. 17 Q. Did you speak with them? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you know if your conversation with Al-Jazeera was 20 recorded? 21 A. Back then, no. 22 Q. Do you know now that it was recorded? 23 A. Yes, I know now. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I approach Mr. Sattar? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10192 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me show you what has been marked as AS-15 in evidence. 2 Do you know what that is, Mr. Sattar? 3 A. This is one of my floppy disks that was taken from my home. 4 Q. Was that seized by the government? 5 A. Yes, it was. 6 Q. Do you know if your interview with Al-Jazeera is on this 7 floppy disk? 8 A. I don't. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I also display to 10 Mr. Sattar and the jury AS-11-T in evidence? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you know what AS-11-T in evidence is? 13 A. It is my interview -- transcript of my interview, English 14 transcript of my interview with Al-Jazeera. 15 Q. And this is dated June 23, 2000 at 8:35? 16 A. Yes. 17 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would ask that Mr. Sattar 18 read his portion of the transcript, and I'll read the portion 19 of the transcript of the reporter. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 Hold on just one second. All right. 22 MR. FALLICK: May we proceed, your Honor? 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, why don't you start reading the attributions to 24 yourself. 25 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-11-T in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10193 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display the 3 continuation, AS-12-T in evidence? 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit AS-12-T in 6 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, when you used the word we in this interview, 8 who were you referring to by we? 9 A. You know, if you listen to my phone conversations or my -- 10 you read it, I have a very bad habit of using the word we, you 11 know, in Arabic. You know, it is either used, the word I in 12 Arabic or we in Arabic, and it is very common. It depends on 13 which part of Egypt that you came from. When I say we, I mean 14 I. 15 Q. To your knowledge, did anyone commit any violent acts as a 16 result of the Sheikh's withdrawal statements? 17 A. No. 18 Q. To your knowledge, is the peace initiative still in effect 19 today? 20 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 21 A. It is. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I'm about to start a new 24 area. Would this be a good time to break? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10194 4C8MSAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for lunch. 2 Please, please, remember my continuing instructions. Please 3 don't talk about this case at all. Please don't talk about the 4 case. And always remember to keep an open mind until you have 5 heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you on the law, 6 you've gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 7 We will resume at 2:00. Have a very good lunch. I 8 look forward to seeing you this afternoon. 9 All rise, please. Follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury 10 room. 11 (Jury not present) 12 THE COURT: Please be back at quarter of two. See you 13 this afternoon. 14 (Luncheon recess) 15 (Pages 10195-10197 SEALED by order of the Court) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C.