10263 4C9MSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 9, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Page 10264 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10265 4C9MSAT1 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 5 good to see you all as always. 6 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Fletcher. 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 9 still under oath. 10 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you, sir. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 12 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 13 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont'd) 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall testifying at the end of the day 17 yesterday that you were happy that Taha was able to explain his 18 points of view to Hani? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Why do you care whether Taha was able to explain his points 21 of view to Hani? 22 A. All my life I stood up for freedom of expression. I want 23 people to be free to express their thoughts, even though if -- 24 it doesn't matter whether I agree with it or I disagree with 25 it. I have been criticizing the Egyptian government -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10266 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, could you just limit your answer to why you 4 cared whether Taha expressed his point of view without 5 discussing the context of the Egyptian government and what was 6 happening in the Egyptian government? 7 A. Okay. I just want him to express his point of view whether 8 I agree with it or I disagree with it. I believe it is a 9 fundamental right for every human being to be able to express 10 his view. I think I'm so -- I am a product of two cultures, an 11 Islamic culture and an American culture. I've been living here 12 for 23 years. I adore freedom of expression and I will go to a 13 great length to guarantee that right to everyone that I know. 14 Q. Do you recall at the end of the day yesterday that the last 15 telephone call you testified about was Government Exhibit 1167X 16 in evidence, which took place on September 4, 2000? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. By September 4, 2000, did you have an understanding of what 19 Atia was attempting to do? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. What was that understanding? 22 A. Atia was just simply trying to get out of Egypt. 23 Q. Why was he trying to get out of Egypt? 24 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Basis? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10267 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 MR. MORVILLO: It is limited to his understanding. 2 THE COURT: Yes. Why don't you rephrase the question. 3 What was your understanding -- 4 Q. What was your understanding of why Atia wanted to leave 5 Egypt? 6 A. Atia wanted to leave Egypt because he was wanted by the 7 Egyptian government. He was hiding from the Egyptian 8 government. The Egyptian government was looking for him. He 9 was trying to escape to save his life. I understand that if, 10 you know -- if the Egyptian government found him -- 11 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 Q. In September 2000, what did you view as your role, if any, 14 in connection with Atia? 15 A. My role was just to help him get out of Egypt. 16 Q. You also recall that in Government Exhibit 1167X in 17 evidence that Taha was expressing to Hani his three points of 18 view? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Did Atia ever respond to Taha's point of view? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. How did he respond? 23 A. He responded through Hani. 24 Q. Was that in a telephone call? 25 A. It was a telephone conversation, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10268 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. In September 2000, did you have an understanding whether 2 Taha knew who Atia was? 3 A. I understood that Taha did not know who Atia was. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 5 Government Exhibit 1170X in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1170X in evidence is a 8 conversation on September 18, 2000 between yourself, Taha, and 9 Hani. Do you recall that conversation? 10 A. Yes, I do. 11 Q. Did you arrange for that conversation over your telephone 12 line? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 6. I am going to read 15 this page to you, Mr. Sattar, and ask you some questions. I am 16 going to read all the lines, in fact. Hani: At the time 17 being, we hope to make it possible to sit with the other party. 18 We hope that he will not know that we are getting in touch with 19 you. If you see that this is done for the best interest of the 20 work. Yes, it is for that, God willing. Notice. The Sujay 21 engineer. Em. His telephone is monitored all the time. This 22 is 100 percent true, it is known. Eh, eh. He was asking. 23 Sometimes we send this through that way. Em. Ah. Okay. Em. 24 Do you have the real name of the person who was responsible for 25 us? Taha replies: No. Hani: Okay. His name is Mr. Allah, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10269 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Alaa Abdul Razig. Taha responds um. Hani says Atia. And Taha 2 says: Is this his real name? And Hani says: Yes. 3 Was it your understanding that this was the first time 4 that Taha knew or heard the name Atia? 5 A. I believe so, yes. 6 Q. This was the first time that you knew or heard the name 7 Atia? 8 A. No, it was not the first time for me to hear his full name, 9 but I heard it before during his conversation with Yunis. But 10 the name did not click. I did not connect dots at this time or 11 around -- until September, actually, until I went and I 12 checked, you know, later on you want to see that, but, you 13 know, until this point the name was not -- it was not 14 connecting to anything. It was just a name. 15 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 13, line 2 through 6. 16 Taha says: The, the points to make it clear, number one, what 17 you have read to me is good, and God bless you, it made me 18 happy. Hani replies: Amen, thank God. Taha says: Yes. 19 Number two for the time being, our legitimate duty, which we 20 are obliged to do, is to set our Sheikhs free. 21 What is your understanding of what Taha was talking 22 about in that passage? 23 A. He is referring to the people in the Liman, the Egyptian 24 prison. 25 Q. Lines 8 through 10 Taha said: The other thing, I mean SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10270 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 regarding the legitimate duty, it is taking care of the 2 families, especially the women. It is our duty to take care of 3 them and to help them. 4 What was your understanding of what Taha was referring 5 to in that passage? 6 A. He is referring to the families of the prisoners that, you 7 know, it is a legitimate duty for him and Atia and other people 8 to take care of them and to help them out. 9 Q. Lines 12 to 13 Taha says: Eh, eh, number three. God 10 willing, the dispute will be kept under control by God's will 11 and handling all the points will be done through a circuit to 12 unite the people. 13 What is your understanding of what Taha was referring 14 to in that passage? 15 A. He is referring to the dispute between the two -- what I 16 told you before, the two factions in the group, the one who is 17 in support of the peace initiative and other faction that wants 18 to be more aggressive or wants, you know, faster results. And 19 he is assuring them that this dispute will be handled in a 20 peaceful way, if you want to say that, and it is also -- it is 21 going -- his aim is to unite the whole group, to just, you 22 know, bridge the gap between the two factions. 23 Q. After this conversation, did you and Taha -- did you know, 24 did Taha continue to speak with Hani? 25 A. After this conversation, I am not quite sure if this was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10271 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 the last conversation with Hani. I am not sure. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 3 Government Exhibit 1183X in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1183X in evidence is a 6 telephone conversation on October 5, 2000 between yourself, 7 Taha, and Hani on October 5, 2000. 8 Do you recall now that Taha continued to speak with 9 Hani? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 7, lines 4 through 8. 12 Taha says: Tell him that I have this kind of fear. Tell him 13 God willing, if he still insists to go out, there is a 14 possibility that I meet with him wherever he will be. But I 15 still advise, it is a loss for elements like those to go out in 16 this time no matter what the circumstances may be. Tell him 17 that I repeat this advice. 18 What is your understanding of what Taha means when he 19 says, if he still insists to go out? 20 A. He is referring to Atia here and he is saying if Atia 21 insists on leaving Egypt that he could meet him somewhere 22 outside Egypt, but he is still advising him not to leave. 23 Q. What is your understanding of why Taha wanted Atia to 24 remain in Egypt? 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I talk to Mr. Fallick SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10272 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 for a minute? 2 THE COURT: Sure. 3 Q. What was your understanding of why Taha wanted Atia to 4 remain in Egypt? 5 A. Taha wanted to have more people on his side. Taha wanted 6 to be able to say to Salah Hashim and Muntasir al-Zayyat and 7 the prisoners, the leadership in prison in Egypt, that, you 8 know, I have these people on my side. I got the support of 9 Atia or the people that are with Atia. He wants to strengthen 10 his position within the group. This is my understanding of why 11 he was pushing him to stay. You know, he is talking about, you 12 know, all this talk about, you know, it is no good to leave, it 13 is no good to do that, it is no good to do that. It is my 14 understanding that that's what he wanted to accomplish. 15 Q. Did you believe that Taha wants Atia to stay in Egypt to 16 commit violent acts? 17 A. From this conversation? 18 Q. From any conversations. 19 A. Later on, I did not believe that he was asking him to do 20 any violent acts in Egypt. 21 Q. Did you have an opinion in 2000 whether Taha -- whether 22 Atia should remain in Egypt or leave Egypt? 23 A. Did I have an opinion? 24 Q. Yes. 25 A. I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10273 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. What was your opinion? 2 A. My opinion, he should have left -- he should have just get 3 out. I told him that. I said, you know, don't listen -- 4 Q. You say you told him that? 5 A. I told Atia in a conversation between me and Atia, I told 6 him, do not listen to Taha, do not listen to Yunis. It is your 7 decision. It is -- you are the one, you know. Taha is outside 8 Egypt. Yunis is outside Egypt. You are the one who is living 9 in Egypt. You the one who makes the decision if you want to 10 stay or you want to leave. Don't listen to nobody. And I 11 also, I told Taha, after a conversation with Atia, I told Taha, 12 do not pressure him to stay in Egypt. 13 Q. Did there come a time that Taha asked you to tell Hani and 14 Atia about the fatwah? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And what fatwah was Taha referring to? 17 A. He was referring to the ghost-written fatwah. 18 Q. Is that the fatwah you testified about yesterday? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What was your understanding of why Taha wanted you to tell 21 Hani and Atia about the fatwah? 22 A. He just want to inform them. He knows that they are on the 23 run. They have no access to newspapers or media, and he wants 24 me to tell them. 25 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display for the jury SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10274 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Government Exhibit 1188X in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1188X in evidence is a 4 telephone conversation on October 9, 2000 between yourself and 5 Taha. And do you recall that? 6 A. Can you repeat this again, please? 7 Q. Do you recall that you had a conversation with Taha on that 8 day? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did he call you or did you call him? 11 A. He called me, as usual. 12 Q. Let me first refer you to the bottom of page 1, line 11 13 where you say: They arrested the man who lives upstairs. He 14 has nothing to do -- continues on page 2 -- with anything. He 15 is even a Christian. Taha replies: No power save from Allah. 16 And you say: They found nobody, eh, I have my brother there. 17 They didn't find him, so they took the only man who was there. 18 I was -- 19 What were you referring to in those passages? 20 A. I'm referring to a visit. I am not going to say a visit. 21 A raid to my home by the Egyptian security forces in Egypt. 22 Q. When you say they took a man who was a Christian, what were 23 you referring to? 24 A. I mean, thank God my mother, my 70-years-old mother, was 25 not home, my sister was not home, my brother was not home. So SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10275 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 they could not find anybody except my neighbor, that poor man. 2 And he was the only man in the house. He lives upstairs from 3 me and they grabbed him, even though that he is not even a 4 Muslim. He is a Christian man and they just grabbed him. It 5 was regular procedures for them. 6 Q. Line 8, 9, and 10: The man told him I haven't seen the man 7 for ages. Why are you bringing me here? I am a Christian. 8 Who are you referring to there? 9 A. I am referring to my neighbor. 10 Q. And Taha says laughing, how do we know? You could have 11 converted him to Islam? You said: Laughing, strange. I was 12 calling all day. You know my mother is an old lady. I wanted 13 to ease her -- 14 THE COURT: Ease it on her. 15 MR. FALLICK: Sorry, your Honor. 16 Q. Ease it on her. Taha says: Ah. And you said, I was 17 waiting here -- unintelligible. I was waiting here to make 18 sure the man -- incidentally, my brother called, he told me 19 about this. I kept calling till the man returned. 20 What were you referring to there? 21 A. I'm referring to my neighbor here. I just want to make 22 sure that he was all right, he was not harmed by the Egyptian 23 security forces. 24 Q. Did you ever inform Hani and/or Atia about the fatwah? 25 A. After this conversation with Taha, yes, I did inform Atia SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10276 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 about the fatwah. 2 Q. By October 2000, did you come to learn more about Atia? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when did you learn more about Atia? 5 A. I start -- you know, I had an article in an Egyptian 6 magazine that was written a long time about him, and I had this 7 magazine at home. And it just dawned on me when the name was 8 just mentioned too many times, I just -- I started to remember 9 that name. And one of the conversations between me and Taha I 10 told him. I said: That name, I read about him, I have an 11 article about him in a magazine. Because Taha at this time, he 12 was just, still don't know who he is. So I grabbed the 13 magazine, I read -- I found it, I read the magazine, and I 14 start to know who Atia is. 15 Q. Who did you learn Atia was? 16 A. According to the magazine, he is a fugitive. I know that 17 part. They said that he was appointed to be the military wing 18 leader of the Islamic Group. 19 Q. Did you learn from the article that he had been involved in 20 violence? 21 A. They said, yes, he was responsible for some act of 22 violence, but I don't believe that the article went into 23 details to what kind of -- to where or when. 24 Q. Did there come a time that you spoke directly to Atia? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10277 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Do you recall when that was? 2 A. That was in October 2000. 3 Q. Do you know where he was when you spoke with him? 4 A. Did I know where he was? Yes. I know he was in South 5 Egypt, all the way in Aswan. 6 Q. And was he in a place and location different from when Hani 7 first contacted you in the early part of 2000? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Was he moving north or south? 10 A. He was moving south. Aswan, it is the last -- if we want 11 to say, the last city on the Egyptian border between Egypt and 12 the Sudan. 13 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 14 Government Exhibit 1194X in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government 1194X in evidence is a conversation 17 between you, Taha, and unidentified child on October 11, 2000. 18 Do you recall having a conversation with Taha on that 19 day? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And do you recall whether this conversation took place 22 after you spoke to Atia directly? 23 A. I believe, yes. 24 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 2. Start on the top 25 of the page. You say: I swear to God, he had been waiting for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10278 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 two days. He has a problem. 2 Who were you referring to in that passage? 3 A. I am referring to Atia. 4 Q. Taha says ah. You say: Because, because he got out, you 5 know. Taha replies: He got out. And you say: He got out of 6 the water. 7 What were you referring to in that passage? 8 A. I am referring to Atia. I'm saying to Taha that he got out 9 of the water means, means he got out of his hiding place. It 10 is like fish getting out of the water. He is going to die. 11 Q. You then go on to say at line 8: I eh, I have a number for 12 him. I spoke to him twice already. 13 Who were you referring to when you said, I spoke to 14 him twice already? 15 A. I spoke to Atia. 16 Q. On line 12 to 13 you say: He wants to talk, he need 17 someone to help him. He needs -- I honestly don't know what to 18 do. 19 What were you referring to in that passage? 20 A. I'm referring to Atia, that he needs help. He wants to 21 talk to somebody. He is stranded in that city. 22 Q. Let me refer you to page 7, line 19 and 20: Of course -- 23 you say: Of course, he wanted to talk about other things, but 24 I explained to him that the line is not safe. 25 What were you referring to in that passage? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10279 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I am referring to Atia. He just, you know, he was anxious, 2 he was eager, he wants to talk. He wants to say things I was 3 not interested in, things that I am -- I should not know. I am 4 not supposed to know, things that, you know, it is between him 5 and Taha or Yunis or whatever. Just, you know, things that I 6 was not interested in. 7 Q. Do you recall that this conversation was the subject of 8 testimony at the beginning of this week by a translator that 9 Mr. Paul called? 10 A. I -- 11 Q. Did you recall that this transcript was the subject of 12 testimony at the beginning of this week that Mr. Paul called to 13 the witness stand? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you have listened to this conversation, have you not? 16 A. Yes, I did, many times. 17 Q. Let me show you government -- from this exhibit, 18 Government's page 15, lines 22 to 23. You say: But I had a 19 feeling that the other brother is eager for things. I mean, 20 his words show that he has the ability and the readiness. 21 Do you recall that in AS-18-T in evidence that 22 Mr. Muslih testified to a different interpretation? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Do you recall what his interpretation was of those words? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10280 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. What was his interpretation? 2 A. His interpretation that he used the word anxious and the 3 word predisposition. 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display pages 19 and 5 20 of Defendant's Exhibit AS-18-T in evidence? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Q. Mr. Sattar, you see the passage at the bottom last two 8 attributions to you where it says: The other brother is the 9 one who said all this talk. However, while talking to the 10 other brother, I sensed that he was -- I mean -- I mean, eh. 11 Abu Yasir says: I see. You say: Anxious about things. I 12 mean judging -- Abu Yasir says: I see. 13 On the top of page 20 you say: I mean, judging from 14 the way he spoke, that he had, I mean -- eh -- eh, he had the 15 predisposition and the readiness to the, to the, to the point 16 where I -- 17 Mr. Sattar, you have listened to this conversation? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. More than once? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You are obviously fluent in Arabic? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. What did you hear when you listened to the conversation? 24 A. It is not that I only listened to the conversation. I am 25 the one who spoke to Atia. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10281 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. What did you say to Atia? What was Atia saying to you? 2 A. Atia, Atia wants to talk, wants anybody to listen to him. 3 He just wanted to keep talking and talking and talking and 4 talking. That's what he wanted to do. And I was just, you 5 know, cutting him off. I said, I told him, my line is not 6 safe, my telephone is not safe. Don't talk. Wait until 7 somebody will talk to you. Saying things in that effect. I 8 didn't want to hear what he was going -- what he wanted to say. 9 Q. You say that you did not think -- when you say that you 10 told Atia the telephone line was not safe, what did you mean? 11 A. Well, it was a way just, you know, to keep him, you know, 12 from not talking. And it did work because right after that he 13 hang up with me after I told him that. 14 Q. When you say -- when you read the passage that he have the 15 predisposition and the readiness to the, to the, to the point, 16 what were you referring to when he used the first 17 predisposition and readiness? 18 A. He is predisposed, inclined to talk. It was nothing more 19 than talk. 20 Q. Let me refer you -- to go back to page 16 of the 21 Government's Exhibit 1194X in evidence. Lines 2 through 4 you 22 say: I interrupted him two or three times. I emphasized that 23 the way is not safe and asked to wait till we get another way. 24 I explained to him. 25 What were you referring to in that passage? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10282 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. I am referring to Atia, you know. I told you about cutting 2 him off by telling him my line is not safe, wait until you talk 3 to somebody, until I get you in another way. He just keeps 4 talking. If you go back to my conversation with him, which, 5 you know, I believe it is in evidence, you are going to see he 6 is just keep talking, keep talking. He keeps talking about 7 lawyers that, you know, working with the Egyptian government, 8 lawyers that they are stabbing others in the back, that he has 9 a way to connect with the leaders in the Egyptian prison, and 10 he just, you know, giving me details that really, you know, it 11 is not -- I don't want to hear it. 12 Q. You then go to say at line 6 through 13: That I have 13 nothing -- Sattar, line 6: That I have nothing to do with 14 details, and that I am like Hisham and the others. Taha 15 replies uh. That. Sattar says: Meaning, a link. Taha: Um. 16 Sattar: I told him that these things. Taha: Um, um, um. 17 Sattar, have to be discussed with our brother. 18 What did you mean when you said you have nothing to do 19 with details and that I am like Hisham and the others, meaning 20 a link? 21 A. I'm just an outsider. I'm not a member of your group. I'm 22 just a link. I have some sympathy, but I am not part of the 23 Islamic Group. I'm just a go in between. I'm just helping 24 you. 25 Q. Was Atia able to leave Egypt? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10283 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. Do you know what happened? 3 A. Yes, I do. 4 Q. And how did you learn what happened to Atia? 5 A. I got the phone call, somebody told me that something 6 happened to him, and then after that I read in the newspaper 7 what happened to him. 8 Q. What did you learn happen to him? 9 A. He was killed. 10 Q. And when was that? 11 A. The exact date I am not sure it was. I believe it was the 12 end of October. 13 Q. And did you have a conversation with anyone concerning 14 Atia's death? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And with whom? 17 A. I had a few conversations. I had a conversation with 18 Yassir Al-Sirri, I had a conversation with Rifa'i Taha. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 20 Government Exhibit 1205X in evidence? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1205X in evidence is a 23 conversation on October 23, 2000 between yourself and Yassir 24 Al-Sirri. Again, was this over your telephone line? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10284 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. At the bottom of page 2 Al-Sirri at line 20 says: Um, you 2 know, an accident took place. I went off the computer a -- top 3 of page 3 -- little while ago. I am disappointed and eh, 4 bracket, unintelligible. An accident took place in Aswan, 5 Egypt. 6 Do you know what Mr. Al-Sirri was referring to? 7 A. He was referring to -- to what happened to Atia. 8 Q. And what had happened? 9 A. There was the Egyptian police security force raided where 10 he was saying at that time in Aswan, and they killed him and 11 they killed the man who he was staying with, too. 12 Q. Bottom of page 13, bottom of the page, line 23 and 24 13 Al-Sirri says: Do you think Al-Asmar was negligent on the 14 issue? You write, they were all negligent. 15 What was your understanding of what Al-Sirri was 16 saying when he said, do you think Al-Asmar was negligent on the 17 issue? 18 A. Yes. He is referring to Al-Asmar means the dark-skinned 19 one in Arabic. And as we see in Rifa'i Taha, he is 20 dark-skinned. So he was referring to Rifa'i Taha by Al-Asmar. 21 Q. When you say they were all negligent -- 22 A. When I say they were all negligent, I was referring to 23 Rifa'i Taha and Yunis in dealing with what was Atia's matter. 24 Q. What did you mean when you said they were -- by use of the 25 word negligence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10285 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. From what -- from my understanding back then and my 2 understanding that they did not handle the situation right. 3 Yunis did not follow up on him until he get out of Egypt. He 4 left him stranded in the city, on the border between Egypt and 5 the Sudan. And Taha was -- all he wanted is for him to stay. 6 It was not helping him to get out. He wanted to convince him 7 to stay, and this is, you know, a man with any significance 8 like this should just, you know, leave because, you know, this 9 is what I was trying to do. I was trying to save the man from 10 being killed and the man just was killed. My worst fear came 11 true. 12 Q. Let me refer you to page 20 of the same transcript, lines 4 13 through 6 where you said: God damn him. The man only wanted 14 to get out of the hardship he has. This is what I understood. 15 Bracket, pause no might or power save from God. Hello. 16 What were you referring to when you said the man only 17 wanted to get out of the hardship he has, this is what I 18 understood? 19 A. First, I was -- I used the word God damn him against the 20 Egyptian information minister where he had a press conference 21 and he said that Atia was planning to do some acts in Egypt. 22 And I said, you know, no, that was not true. The man wanted 23 just to leave. All he wanted to do was just to get out of 24 Egypt. This is what Atia wanted. Atia did not want to stay in 25 Egypt. Atia just wanted to leave. He wants to escape. That's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10286 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 all Atia wanted to do. 2 Q. Referring you to page 21, same transcript, lines 24 to 25, 3 you say: I said he is right, my line isn't good. He asked me 4 if he should stay or -- I said I don't know what to advise. 5 What were you referring to in that passage? 6 A. My conversation of him when he was asking me if he should 7 stay, and I -- I don't know what to advise. I was just telling 8 him, you know, I think later on I told him I don't know what to 9 advise. If you want to stay, stay. If you don't want to stay, 10 don't stay. Do not listen to anybody. You are the one in the 11 lion's mouth, as we say. It is not Musa. It is not Yunis. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 13 time to just have a short break? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a break. Please 16 remember my continuing instructions. Don't talk about the case 17 at all. Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 18 heard all of the evidence and I've instructed you on the law. 19 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 20 jury room. 21 (Jury not present) 22 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 23 May I talk to the lawyers just for a moment. 24 (Pages 10287-10292 SEALED by order of the Court) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10293 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 (Jury present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 5 Mr. Fletcher. 6 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 7 are still under oath. 8 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you, Mr. Fletcher. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 10 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 11 BY MR. FALLICK: 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, right before we took our break you were 13 testifying about your conversation with Mr. Al-Sirri concerning 14 Atia's death. Do you recall that? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Did you also have a conversation with Taha concerning 17 Atia's death? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 20 Government Exhibit 1209X in evidence? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that on November 2, 2000 over 23 your telephone line you had a conversation with Mr. Taha 24 concerning Atia's death? 25 A. Yes, I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10294 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 8 of that 2 conversation, lines 17 to 20. You say: The brother called on 3 such and such a day. Taha says: Yeah. And you say: He 4 stayed, he stayed, he stayed, stayed nine days until eh -- he 5 kept in touch with me for nine days until one of you got in 6 touch with him. 7 First, what were you referring to when you said, the 8 brother called on such and such a day? 9 A. I'm referring to Atia. 10 Q. And what were you referring to in the passage on lines 19 11 to 20 concerning the nine days? 12 A. I'm referring to he stayed for a long period of time before 13 Yunis or Taha get in touch with him. 14 Q. Let me refer you to page 9 of the same transcript at lines 15 4 through 8. You say: It was nine days, Sheikh. I was 16 waiting for you. I was waiting for you Taha replies: It means 17 that I did not call you for nine days? Why? And you say: You 18 did not call me for one week. You called eh, me, eh, you 19 called me. When did you call me for the first time, if you 20 remember? Taha replies: I really don't remember, Sheikh. 21 What were you referring to when you made the statement 22 it was nine days I was waiting for you? 23 A. I was telling Taha that I was waiting for him or for Yunis 24 to call for nine days, and he was debating like, no, it was not 25 that long and I would say, no, it is that long. I was trying SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10295 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 to find out how many days, he was trying to find out how many 2 days. This is what we are referring to, from the time that 3 Atia called me until the time one of them called me or Taha 4 called me. 5 Q. Page 23 of the same transcript at lines 8 to 10 -- 8 to 9, 6 you said: Because the brother stayed nine days at that place 7 and nothing happened. 8 Who was the brother you were referring to? 9 A. I'm referring to Atia. 10 Q. And when you say he stayed nine days at that place and 11 nothing happened, what were you referring to? 12 A. I'm referring to the place in Aswan where he was, and 13 nothing happened to him. He was there for nine days, and 14 nothing happened to him. I was trying to tell him that it was 15 not here that the American government notified the Egyptian 16 government or anything like this. The man was there for nine 17 days, nothing happened to him. If it is on my line, they would 18 have done it a long time before, but nothing happened to him. 19 It is something that has to do with the Egyptian government. 20 This is what I was trying to say there. 21 Q. Page 25 of the same transcript, lines 14 to the bottom of 22 the page. You say: He told me, eh, eh. The brother spoke to 23 me and explained to me part of the circumstances. And he is, 24 eh, he is pressing for something. Okay? Waa, waa, "but I have 25 a different view." Okay? Taha says: Yeah. Sattar said: So SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10296 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 I spoke to him sincerely and frankly. Taha says yeah. And you 2 say: He told me. Brother, there are priorities -- 3 A. Mr. Fallick, I cannot see that part. 4 Q. What were you referring to in the passages that I just 5 read, lines 14 to 21? 6 A. He was -- you know, in one of my conversations with Atia, 7 that he was basically saying that Taha was pressing him to stay 8 in Egypt. He just kept, you know, pressing him to stay in 9 Egypt. So I was telling him, you know, he was also saying that 10 he has a different view. He doesn't want to stay. So it is 11 that line of conversation again that I spoke to him, you know 12 sincerely. I said: Brother, there are priorities. I told him 13 okay. I don't know -- after that. I need to see what I said 14 after that because I really don't understand that last line. I 15 don't recall it. 16 Q. Let me go back to page 10 of the transcript, of that same 17 transcript, at lines 8 to 9. Taha says: Instead of letting 18 the brothers try to disclose, now you've become the main 19 witness in this case. 20 What was your understanding of what Taha was referring 21 to? 22 A. Taha is telling me that I am the one who witnessed 23 everything. There was already some rumor that they want to 24 blame Atia's death on me and on Taha. So he was telling me, 25 you witnessed everything, you spoke to the brother, you had an SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10297 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 understanding of what was in his mind. So this is what he is 2 telling me. 3 Q. Who, in your opinion, was responsible for Atia's death? 4 A. Yunis and Taha. 5 Q. Why was it your opinion that they were responsible for 6 Atia's death? 7 A. Yunis left him there for a few days. The man who was 8 supposed to bring him, I believe, some money never showed up 9 for him. So he had no money in that place after he got out of 10 his hiding place. Taha spoke to him and knew about the 11 situation and did not extend a hand to help him. He wanted him 12 to stay in Egypt. So both -- I blame both of them for that, 13 for the death of Atia. 14 Q. Knowing what you learned about Atia and what you read about 15 Atia, what was your intent and purpose in arranging the 16 telephone calls between Hani and Taha and Yunis and Atia and 17 yourself? 18 A. At first, you know, as I told you, I did not know who Atia 19 was. And then you know when I found out that he is a fugitive 20 or he wants to just to get out of Egypt, I tried to help him to 21 get out of Egypt. All I wanted to do is to get him out. 22 Knowing what I knew about him, knowing that he was involved in 23 violent acts, I still wanted to get him out. Because if I know 24 that Atia was going to have his fair shake, a fair trial -- 25 MR. MORVILLO: Objection. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10298 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 Q. Was it your intent just to help Atia to get out of Egypt? 3 A. Yes, it was, that was my intent. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I would move to strike the 5 last sentence of the witness's prior answer. 6 THE COURT: No. It wasn't a full sentence. I'll 7 strike the half sentence beginning at because. 8 MR. MORVILLO: That would be my request, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. FALLICK: May I have one moment, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: Sure. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 13 AS-6-T in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me show you what is in evidence as AS-6-T 16 in evidence. This is a conversation between yourself and 17 Mr. Taha on November 12, 2000. Is that a conversation that 18 took place after Atia was killed? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. At the bottom of page 2 -- and I'll put an arrow -- you 21 say: Yesterday I talked to Ahmed. Abu Yasir said: Ahmed who? 22 And you say: The Sheikh's son. At bottom of the page, it 23 says: I told him about -- I told him that I was upset about 24 what happened, and so on and so forth. The three things that 25 are -- the brother came and -- continues on page 3 -- stayed. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10299 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 It was eight to nine days from the day -- from the day he 2 stayed until the other one called me -- until he wasn't -- on 3 the second and third day. They waited for the other one to 4 call again. Nothing. He asked me to call the other brother. 5 I sent to the other brother -- 6 What were you referring to when you were speaking to 7 Abu Yasir in that passage? 8 A. I was referring to Atia, that he called me and for three 9 days he asked first for Yunis, that he wanted to speak to 10 Yunis. So I sent Yunis an e-mail. Yunis never answered me, so 11 for three days he was sitting there until I spoke to him again 12 and he asked if I cannot find Yunis. So he asked if I can call 13 or send a message to Taha. And this is what I'm referring to 14 by saying he asked me to call the other brother, means Taha. 15 When he asked me to call the other brother, it means to call 16 Taha. 17 Q. Later on in the same passage, same transcript, you said: 18 They wanted to blame everything on this guy and they set their 19 minds to it. And there are mistakes, very big mistakes that 20 were made in that matter. Abu Yasir says yeah. And you said: 21 But none of them wants to admit that a mistake was made. The 22 easiest way is to blame someone who is not one of us. That 23 will put them at ease. If they want to fill, they want -- 24 What were you refer to in those passages? 25 A. I'm talking about myself in a third way. I'm referring SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10300 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 to -- when I say you wanted to blame everything on this guy 2 means me, and they set their minds to it. Because what I told 3 you before, they didn't want to bite each other. So it is 4 easier to bite me. It is easier to jump on me. I'm not one of 5 them. I'm saying here. But none of them wants to admit the 6 mistake that was made. I'm referring about the Islamic Group, 7 the leaders of the Islamic Group, Yunis, everybody else that 8 dealt with this situation. The easiest way is to blame someone 9 who is not one of us. Means I'm not one of them. So I'm just 10 referring in the third person to myself. 11 Q. Let me refer you to page 5 of the same transcript, starting 12 with the attribution where I put a red mark. Abu Yasir says: 13 So you can defend yourself with it. All through the letter he 14 says: "This guy, God forgive him, did this, and that guy, God 15 forgive him, did that." and bracket, unintelligible, the 16 matter. Which means that your role in this issue is to do a 17 certain task. You reply: Yes. And Abu Yasir says: It is 18 not. This one asks you to connect, so you connect. And he 19 asks you to connect him to this guy, and you go ahead and 20 connect him, but you're not an active party. You say: Yes. 21 Abu Yasir says: You don't have the internet opened as an 22 active source. You say: Yes. And Abu Yasir says: The 23 brother tells you, connect me to brother Haytham. You 24 connected. Connect me to brother Yunis." You connected. The 25 brother told you "connect me" and you connected. You reply, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10301 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 yes, Abu Yasir says -- 2 A. Mr. Fallick, I cannot see on my screen. 3 Q. You said: But you are not a party to this matter. You're 4 not giving your point of view because the people don't know you 5 personally. They only know you through the people that are 6 talking. You say: True, true. And Abu Yasir says: The best 7 thing for one is to stay removed from the accusation. 8 What is your understanding of what Abu Yasir said when 9 he said you are not a party in this matter? 10 A. I need to look at the transcript here. Would you give me 11 the exhibit number, please? 12 Q. AS-6-T. 13 A. Page number. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, page? 15 Q. Do you have that transcript before you, Mr. Sattar? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you see the passage that I've just read, page 5 and 6? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What was your understanding when -- when Abu Yasir said you 20 were not a party in this matter? 21 A. Abu Yasir telling me that I am not one or a member of the 22 Islamic Group. He is telling me that you are not a party of 23 this whole thing. He is telling me basically that you just a 24 link. You are just a guy who are doing a favor. People don't 25 know you except the people that they talk to you. He is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10302 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 telling me that you just a link, a go-between. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I also display to the 3 jury and Mr. Sattar AS-4-T? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, AS-4-T in evidence is a conversation that you 6 had with Mr. Al-Sirri on June 14, 2000, is that correct? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Let me refer you to page 18 of that transcript. And the 9 paragraph that begins -- I'll put a mark there -- my whole life 10 revolves, revolves, revolves around Islam. My loyalty is 11 focused on Islam. Praise be to God, I don't distinguish 12 between a Muslim, eh, eh, who is a member of Al-Ikhwan or a 13 Muslim who is a member of al-Gama'a, or a member of any group. 14 Any Muslim who is harmed or whose blood has spilled is my 15 brother. It doesn't matter whether he is predisposed in this 16 direction or that direction. It doesn't matter if we disagree. 17 I mean eh, eh, eh, disagreements will not be effective. Even 18 if there is no disagreements -- yes. He will still be my 19 brother. Even if there are disagreements, he will still be my 20 brother. 21 Does that passage, in your opinion, describe why you 22 helped Atia? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. At some point did you recall hearing about the bombing of 25 the U.S.S. Cole? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10303 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And do you recall when you heard about it? 3 A. It was some time in October 2000. 4 Q. And how did you learn of the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole? 5 A. It was all over the news. 6 Q. And what did you hear? 7 A. I'm sorry? 8 Q. What did you hear or see? 9 A. I heard at the beginning it was an explosion in Yemen and 10 an American navy ship was -- had some kind of explosion in it, 11 and there were -- 17 sailors were killed. 12 Q. Do you recall what your reaction was in October 2000 when 13 you learned of the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole? 14 A. I was -- I mean, at the beginning it was just a piece of 15 news to me. I mean, I wanted to know what happened. This was 16 my initial reaction to it. I just want to know what's going 17 on, just following the news. 18 Q. After you learned of the bombing did you have a 19 conversation with anyone about it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And who did you have a conversation with? 22 A. I think first I have a reporter calling me from New York 23 Newsday, and then I had a discussion with him about this. And 24 then I had a discussion with Yasir Al-Sirri about it, too. 25 Q. Did you also have a conversation with Taha about it? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10304 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes, I did. That was later on, about two weeks later. 2 Q. And did he call you or did you call him? 3 A. No. He called me. 4 Q. And, again, how long after you learned of the bombing of 5 the U.S.S. Cole did Taha call you? 6 A. It was, I believe, at least two weeks. 7 Q. And do you recall what Taha said to you? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what did he say to you? 10 A. At the time -- let me just go back. At the time when Taha 11 called it was already known what happened to the U.S.S. Cole 12 was a terrorist act. When Taha called me, he spoke about, he 13 wants to utilize this to negotiate with the American 14 government. He wants to -- he heard something on the news that 15 said that there was an Egyptian male involved in that act, and 16 he wants to utilize it, you know, to get -- to negotiate with 17 the American government. 18 Q. Do you recall what your reaction was to this phone call 19 from Taha? 20 A. Afterward I was shaking, I was scared, and I didn't know 21 what to do. 22 Q. Why were you so shaken and scared? 23 A. Here is 17 American sailors killed, 17 people just died, 24 and there is somebody who wants to utilize this. I have 25 nothing to do with this. Yes, I might have sympathy for you or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10305 4C9MSAT1 Sattar - direct 1 for what's going on with you, but I am not going to utilize the 2 death of 17 people to do something that you want to do. It was 3 beyond my understanding. It was beyond me. I am not going to 4 do that. I can't do that. I'm afraid to do that. I'm scared 5 to do that. I will not go on that road for me. This is not 6 me. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10306 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 BY MR. FALLICK:: 2 Q. Following your conversation with Taha, did you discuss the 3 conversation, this conversation with anyone? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. With whom? 6 A. First, you know, there was, I discussed it with Lynne but I 7 was not actually going, you know, to see Lynne. 8 Q. Lynne, meaning Ms. Stewart? 9 A. Ms. Stewart, yes. 10 There was a book signing. We were invited to a book 11 signing by Mr. Jabara. It was Lynne, me, Yousry, some other 12 people that we know, and I get to -- I went to this book 13 signing and I was looking for Mr. Jabara. I just -- I wanted 14 to ask his, you know -- I want to ask his legal advice, to be 15 honest with you, about, you know, that conversation. I was -- 16 and I was terrified, so. 17 I couldn't find -- I could not find Mr. Jabara there. 18 I saw Lynne. And I went and I told her about that phone call 19 and I explained to her what happened and what was said. 20 Q. Did she respond to you? 21 A. Yes, she did. 22 Q. What did she say to you? 23 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, this just goes to 25 Mr. Sattar's state of mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10307 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 Ladies and gentlemen, the statements by Ms. Stewart 3 are not offered for the -- not received for the truth of what 4 is said but solely for their effect on the knowledge, intent 5 and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 6 All right. 7 BY MR. FALLICK:: 8 Q. What did Ms. Stewart say to you? 9 A. Ms. Stewart said, told me this is no good. She said 10 probably the person that who called you, she didn't know who 11 called me. She said probably the person who called you was 12 working for some kind of intelligence service and she said this 13 is no good. And she looked me in the eye like a mother and she 14 told me, Stay away from this. 15 Q. And did you stay away from it? 16 A. I did. 17 Q. And after speaking with Ms. Stewart, did you communicate 18 with anyone about Taha's suggestion? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Did you ever speak to Taha again about the U.S.S. Cole? 21 A. Never again. 22 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, before I begin a new 23 section, may we have a short break? 24 THE COURT: Sure. Ladies and gentlemen, we will take 25 a five minute break. Please, remember my continuing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10308 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 instructions not to talk about the case, keep an open mind. 2 All rise, please. 3 (Jury not present) 4 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Sattar can step down. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 6 (Witness steps down) 7 THE COURT: See you shortly. 8 Could I talk to the lawyers? 9 (PAGES 10309-10311 SEALED by order of the Court) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10312 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. 3 MR. PAUL: Are you ready for Mr. Sattar? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 (Witness resumes stand) 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher? 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 10 you are still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 13 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 14 BY MR. FALLICK: 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, did there come a time in 2001 that you had a 16 conversation with anyone concerning the Sheikh's treatment and 17 condition while he was incarcerated? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And do you recall when that conversation was? 20 A. That was in January. Sometime in January, 2001. 21 Q. With whom did you have that conversation? 22 A. I actually had two conversations, one with the Sheikh Omar 23 Abdel Rahman's wife, and one with his son, Abdullah. 24 Q. And who was Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's wife? 25 A. 'Aisha. A-I-S-H-A. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10313 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. How many wives did the Sheikh have? 2 A. He has two. 3 Q. And is Aisha the -- 4 A. She is the first wife. He married Aisha first. 5 Q. Is she the mother of the Sheikh's sons? 6 A. Yes. She is a mother of some of the Sheikh's sons, yes. 7 Q. Now, prior to January of 2001, had you spoken to Aisha 8 prior to 2001? 9 A. Oh, yes. For years I have been -- I was -- I spoke to her 10 for years. 11 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 12 Government Exhibit 1219X, in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that Government Exhibit 1219X, in 15 evidence, is a conversation on January 8, 2001 between 16 yourself, Aisha Abdel Rahman, and Abdullah Abdel Rahman? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And Abdullah Abdel Rahman is one of the Sheikh's sons? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. On page 2 at lines 3 through 8, Aisha says: That the 21 Sheikh is complaining that now he is -- 22 You say: Yes. 23 And 'Aisha says: Of course, he is not taking his 24 medication. 25 And you say: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10314 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 And Aisha says: They are telling me to talk to the 2 Sheikh about his medication. They told me that when they 3 called me, to talk to him. 4 What was your understanding of what she was referring 5 to? 6 A. She was referring to the Sheikh and his medication, that 7 the Sheikh is refusing to take his medication and the prison 8 guards or, you know, some prison official called her and spoke 9 to her to urge the Sheikh to take his medication. 10 Q. Do you know what medication the Sheikh was taking? 11 A. I believe his insulin. 12 Q. Let me refer you to page 5, lines 19 to 22 where Aisha 13 says: What was said is that the Sheikh has to inform Muntasir 14 Al-Zayat, his lawyer in Egypt, indicating that the American 15 government and the lawyers are conspiring against him. They 16 cut off his food and his medication. 17 And you reply: This is... this is not a good thing to 18 say. This is not a good thing to say. 19 What was your understanding of what Aisha was 20 referring to? 21 A. The Sheikh informed her to call Muntasir Al-Zayat, his 22 lawyer in Egypt, to speak to the press and say that the lawyers 23 in the United States and the American government are in cahoots 24 together or conspiring or ganging up on him. 25 And I was telling her this is no good. Or I was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10315 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 trying to explain to her this is not true. 2 Q. Did you have an understanding during this conversation of 3 why the Sheikh was criticizing his lawyers and paralegals? 4 A. Yes, I do. 5 Q. What was your understanding? 6 A. At this period of time the Sheikh was not allowed to call 7 his lawyers. He was not allowed to have any visits because I 8 think the lawyers -- the lawyers were refusing to sign the SAM 9 affidavit and he did not get a call for a long time and he did 10 not know at the time that he, that the lawyers were cut off. 11 So, he was under the assumption that, you know, that 12 something is going on between the lawyers and the American 13 government. 14 Q. Let me direct your attention to page 7 of the same 15 transcript lines 2 and 3. You say: I beg you. Don't say 16 anything of that talk to the newspapers. This will cause us a 17 lot of problems, especially... 18 Then Aisha says: Okay, fine. 19 Then you say: We have enough problems with Muntasir 20 Al-Zayat, may God help us. 21 At the bottom of the same page at lines 21 to 22, you 22 say: Eh, eh, eh... in the last period the man accused us of 23 all kind of accusations, in the newspapers. 24 What were you referring to during this conversation in 25 these passages? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10316 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. I was basically telling her -- telling her that if she 2 tells Muntasir Al-Zayat that the lawyers is conspiring with the 3 government against the Sheikh, he will go and use this to his 4 advantage to attack the lawyers to say, you see what I told you 5 before? 6 And in the last sentence here when I say "in the last 7 period the man accused us of all kind of accusations, in the 8 newspapers?" When Ms. Stewart had the Reuters interview after 9 the Sheikh withdrew his support of the cease -- of the peace 10 initiative, Muntasir Al-Zayat went out there and, you know, 11 threw a lot of accusations saying he does not know who Lynne 12 Stewart is. They are -- this is not true. 13 So, you know, he was -- the whole credibility of the 14 lawyers were diminished back then until the Sheikh came and 15 clarified his position. 16 So, I did not want Muntasir Al-Zayat to use this 17 again. 18 Q. We refer you to page 8, line 17 to 20. 19 You say: I don't know, as a matter of fact this will 20 be the last approach. If anything happens to the Sheikh, or 21 anything the Sheikh says here, if... if... the visits are 22 resumed, who is going to believe us? 23 Aisha says: Yeah. 24 And you say: If the Sheikh is saying that his lawyers 25 betrayed him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10317 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 What were you referring to there? 2 A. I am referring that, to that if the visits -- if the 3 lawyers visits resumed, if the lawyers signed the SAM and they 4 start going to visit the Sheikh or start to have telephone 5 conversations with the Sheikh, after this accusation that they 6 were conspiring with the government against him, if they came 7 out and they say anything on his behalf, nobody is going to 8 believe them. They will say, well, you know, the man himself 9 accused them of betraying him, of conspiring with the 10 government against him. 11 Q. At the bottom of the page, lines 23 to 24, Aisha says: The 12 Sheikh is telling me to inform brother Ahmed Abdel Sattar with 13 this statement. You see that the first thing he told" -- 14 continues on page 9 -- "me is to inform brother Ahmed. 15 You say: We... 16 And she says: He knows that you are the only 17 connection that we have. 18 And you say: Yes, but eh... the outsider people, the 19 Sheikh's loved ones and his followers, and the Sheikh's 20 children... I am regarded as one of the lawyer's team, not 21 something else. 22 And she says: Yes. 23 And you say: If this talking is raised... assailing 24 the lawyer does not mean that they attack the lawyers. The 25 person who attacks... the outsider who assaults, he does not SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10318 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 assault the lawyer, he assaults me. 2 What were you referring to in those passages? 3 A. I was telling her that people outside the United States, 4 they will, you know, or people don't know who I am, people 5 knows me as a paralegal for the Sheikh, before I was appointed 6 as a paralegal for the Sheikh nobody know who I am. 7 So, I get my credibility with working with the 8 lawyers. 9 Q. Let me refer you to page 11 of the transcript, lines 4 10 through 6. You say: If I talk... if I talk to the newspapers, 11 I will talk about the suffering he endures and how the lawyers 12 were prevented from visiting him. 13 What were you referring to in that passage? 14 A. I was saying that if I ever say anything to the media or 15 issue anything, I will talk about what he is really suffering 16 from. I'm not going to mention or I'm not going to say 17 something that, you know, the lawyers are conspiring against 18 him. I'm not going to say that at all. 19 I will say he is enduring such and such and such, or 20 he is suffering from such and such, but nothing with the 21 lawyer. And I am going to clear that the lawyer were 22 preventing -- I'm going to say it clear that the lawyer were 23 preventing from visiting him. 24 Q. During this same conversation with Aisha, were you, did you 25 speak with anyone else after you finished speaking with her? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10319 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. Yes. I spoke with Abdullah, the Sheikh's -- 2 Q. Who was Abdullah? 3 A. The Sheikh's son. 4 Q. Let me refer you to page 25 of the same transcript and I 5 refer you first to lines 4 to 5, where you say: He refuses to 6 take his medication. He does... the Sheikh has done this many 7 times -- has done this thing many times. 8 What were you referring to in that passage? 9 A. I am referring to what the Sheikh does, you know, what I 10 know, you know, about him. The Sheikh was, used to say always 11 that he is his own doctor when he fasts and he feels like, you 12 know, his sugar level is going up and down, he -- you know, he 13 thinks that he knows about his medical condition more than 14 anybody else, more than his doctor. And he will say, you know, 15 I'm not taking my insulin. And, you know, he has done that so 16 many times so I know this about him. 17 Q. And on the same page, beginning line 12, you say: We talk 18 to him about this, eh, about this matter many times, but 19 between him and us, he said that he knows when he needs the 20 insulin, and when he does not need it. 21 Abdel Rahman says: Yes. 22 And you say: But there is no... no objection to 23 escalate this issue... but this has to be between us. 24 Abdel Rahman says: Ah. 25 And you say: We can escalate the issue of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10320 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 medication and the other thing. 2 What were you referring to in those passages? 3 A. I was referring to that, you know, if he wants us to do 4 that because, you know, before that he, Abdullah was, you know, 5 I understood from him that the Sheikh wants to escalate this 6 issue to highlight the issue about, you know, they are denying 7 him medication and denying him food and you know, highlighting 8 his medical condition. 9 So, I am telling him here that, you know, I will not 10 object to that, I will -- I could do that. 11 Q. At this point did you believe that the Bureau of Prisons 12 was denying the Sheikh his medicine? 13 A. No. I did not. I believe that, you know, he is the one 14 who was not taking his medicine. 15 Q. Let me refer you to page 26 of the same transcript, line 21 16 through 27. Let's start with lines 18 through 27. You say: 17 She told me that... she told me, the Sheikh is saying... the 18 Sheikh is saying... let Ahmed, eh... publish this talk. 19 Abdel Rahman says: Yeah. 20 You say: The point concerning the lawyers is 21 extremely dangerous. First of all... first... here, I am 22 regarded as one of the lawyers, yeah, yeah, Abdullah. I am 23 regarded as one of the lawyers, okay? 24 Abdel Rahman says: Em. 25 You say: Anything said about those people is deemed SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10321 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 to be an attack... and I had enough... I really had enough 2 attacks in this past period. 3 What were you referring to in these passages? 4 A. I am referring to that the Sheikh wants me to go out there 5 and say that the lawyers are conspiring against him and I said, 6 no, I cannot do that. People look at me, you know, when they 7 attack Lynne in the past period they attacked me too. I am 8 part of that team. If are you going to attack, how could I 9 just come out and say that they are conspiring against that 10 man? There is people out like, like Muntasir, for example, and 11 he will take this and he will just go have a feast with it. 12 And I just was explaining this to him right there. 13 Q. In your opinion, were the lawyers conspiring against the 14 Sheikh in January 2001? 15 A. Absolutely not. 16 Q. Let me refer you to page 28 of the same transcript, and I 17 am reading lines 2 through 11. You begin by saying: Does the 18 Sheikh have any direct contact with anyone except his lawyers, 19 and with his home? 20 And Abdel Rahman says: No. 21 And you say: And his contact home... if he talks a 22 little bit long, they cut off the home call. It happened 23 before. 24 Abdel Rahman says: Ah... 25 And you say: They cut off the personal calls for SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10322 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 months. 2 Abdel Rahman says: Yes. 3 You say: I don't want to reach the point of eh... I 4 want to keep an open window. 5 What were you referring to when you said that you 6 don't want to reach the point and you want to keep an open 7 window? 8 A. I want to keep an open window for the man. I want to keep 9 him not to be totally, one hundred percent isolated from the 10 outside world. 11 The only window for him, you know, was the phone calls 12 and that he gets -- the legal phone calls that he gets or a 13 visit that he gets. This is the only time that he could see 14 humans other than the prison guards or the prison official. 15 So, if this is -- if you are going to attack the 16 lawyers and say they are conspiring against him, so he will be 17 totally isolated, he will have nobody to visit him, he will 18 have nobody to talk to. And the personal calls to his home, 19 which he was supposed to have, I think, one call a month or two 20 calls a month and there were no guarantee on it. 21 So, he could stay for a month, if not years, not 22 talking to anybody and not seeing anybody. 23 Q. Let me refer you to page 42 of the same transcript, lines 24 13 through 16 where you say: Don't publish... I mean 25 everything eh... eh... through the media. You have connections SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10323 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 with the media. You get in touch with the media from there and 2 I will get in touch with them from here. 3 What were you referring to in that passage? 4 A. I'm referring to if he wants to talk to the media about his 5 father's condition, yes, he could through the Egyptian media, 6 and I will talk about it from here to other form of media here 7 in the United States or outside Egypt. 8 Q. Following your conversation with the Sheikh's wife and son, 9 did you discuss this conversation with anyone? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. With whom? 12 A. With Lynne Stewart -- Ms. Stewart. 13 Q. And do you recall what you said to her and what she said to 14 you? 15 A. Yes. 16 I told her about basically, you know, what was going 17 on and the Sheikh, what was going through the Sheikh's mind; 18 that he thinks that, you know, that there is a conspiracy 19 against him and what he wants to say about that the government 20 is denying him medication and, you know, I'm trying to protect 21 the Sheikh from the Sheikh. 22 You know, I don't want him to be totally isolated. 23 Once his lawyers or those phone calls stop, you know, he's not 24 going to have anybody on his side no more. 25 Q. Was a press release prepared concerning the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10324 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 conditions? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And who prepared the press release? 4 A. I'm not quite sure if I did prepare it myself or I prepared 5 it with Yasir Al-Sirri, but it was like, you know, I think 6 going back and forth between us, you know. 7 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 8 and Mr. Sattar Government Exhibit 1221X, in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1221X, in evidence, is a 11 transcript of a conversation on January 8, 2001 between 12 yourself and Yasir Al-Sirri and two other individuals, Soliman 13 and Ali. 14 Do you recall if this conversation took place after 15 your conversation with the Sheikh's wife and son? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Let me direct your attention first to page 5 of this 18 conversation, line -- I'm sorry, page 5, line 3 through 5. 19 Al-Sirri says: Okay, we... shall I write the introduction? 20 You say: Fine, do what you want. 21 Al-Sirri says: Shall I write, "To every free Muslim?" 22 What was your understanding of what Mr. Al-Sirri was 23 writing? 24 A. Now I remember. 25 I prepared a statement and I sent it to Yasir SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10325 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Al-Sirri. I'm not sure if it was a fax or an e-mail and, you 2 know, we were writing an introduction here to that -- to that 3 statement. 4 It was, you know, the events were -- I said what I 5 wanted to say but this was just an introduction to that 6 statement me and Al-Sirri are discussing here. 7 Q. At the bottom, line 18 to 19, you say: [in a low voice] to 8 the Muslims. We are addressing the Muslims. 9 Al-Sirri: [Typing] [pause] To the human rights 10 organization. 11 Who was this press release being issued to or sent to? 12 A. This press release was sent to human rights organizations, 13 were sent to the media and put on some website, on the Islamic 14 Observation Center website. 15 It was sent everywhere, actually. 16 Q. Do you recall what the contents of the press release were? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. What is your recollection of the contents of the press 19 release? 20 A. My recollection of the press release was I spoke about how 21 the Sheikh suffered in prison, that he is cut off from the 22 world, that he is not allowing any visits. Even his lawyers 23 were prevented from visiting him. He is not allowed phone 24 calls to his lawyers. 25 He is -- I say also something about, you know, that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10326 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 the government is denying him his medication. I stated the 2 conditions that the Sheikh was actually suffering from since 3 19 -- since he was put under the SAM in 1997. 4 Q. Let me refer you to page 11 of Government Exhibit 1221X, in 5 evidence, page 11, line 23; and you talk about the Sheikh's 6 defense committee. 7 What were you referring to in that passage? What was 8 the Sheikh's defense committee? 9 A. I was referring to a committee that was formed actually 10 before that. We, people who cared about the Sheikh were part 11 of it, some activists in the United States. Me, some people 12 the Sheikh, you know, asked me to call and, you know, to see if 13 they can join this defense committee. A committee that was 14 supposed to, you know, highlight what the Sheikh is going 15 through and to promote the Sheikh's case and ask to free the 16 Sheikh. 17 Q. Let me refer you to page 14 of the transcript, lines 1 18 through 5. The first sentence begins: This started in the 19 beginning of Ramadan. After that there was no contact with 20 him. He was denied the right to take his insulin [pause], 21 which a diabetic needs. The diabetic might go into a coma 22 because of -- unintelligible. He became unable"... is it 23 "became unable?" or... 24 Was the Sheikh being denied his right to take his 25 insulin? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10327 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 A. No. 2 Q. When you were preparing this press release with 3 Mr. Al-Sirri, what were you hoping to accomplish? 4 A. I was hoping to accomplish again, as what I said so many 5 times, to keep the Sheikh out there, to keep his case alive. 6 I also wanted to create some sympathy for him. Here 7 is a man who is in solitary confinement for so many years. He 8 cannot see, he is blind. He is diabetic, he is sick, he is old 9 and he is going through this kind of treatment. So, I was just 10 trying to use some exaggeration here to create sympathy for the 11 Sheikh and have some people talk about him, speak on his 12 behalf. 13 This is what I was trying to do. 14 Q. And why did you -- was the press release issued? 15 A. Yes, it was. 16 Q. And did it contain a statement that the Sheikh was being 17 denied his insulin? 18 A. Yes, it was. 19 Q. Why did you include that in the statement? 20 A. Just to create sympathy. Nothing more, nothing less. 21 Q. Let me refer you back to the same transcript at page 16, 22 lines 8 through 10 first. 23 Al-Sirri says, and in quotations: "And we, through 24 the Sheikh's defense committee, urge the candid Muslims at the 25 human organizations to protest the American government's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10328 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 treatment." Right? 2 You say: Yes, the treatment... 3 Al-Sirri says: The bad treatment... 4 You say: For the bad treatment... 5 Al-Sirri says: [Typing] "the way they tried him"... 6 the treatment which he receives... 7 Sattar says: The treatment which the Sheikh receives. 8 And Al-Sirri says, in quotation: "Sheikh Omar Abdel 9 Rahman... and ask for his release, considering his health, 10 religious and psychological conditions, which are granted by 11 the agreements and treaties." Unintelligible. God is the best 12 resort. 13 Was it your intention that the press release that was 14 issued was urging anyone to commit a violent act on behalf of 15 the Sheikh? 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. Leading. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Rephrase. Sustained, rephrase. 19 Q. What was your intention in issuing the press release? 20 A. My intention was to create sympathy for the Sheikh. My 21 intention was, as the statement itself stated, for people to 22 protest. For people to write. 23 I did this before. I issued a statement on his behalf 24 back then. Mr. Clark issued a statement complaining about the 25 conditions that he was to the newspapers. Mr. Jabara had SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10329 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 interviews with newspapers. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 Q. When you issued this press release, did you know that other 5 press releases in the past had been issued concerning the 6 Sheikh's medical -- concerning the Sheikh's conditions? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you know who issued those press releases? 9 A. Yes, I do. 10 Q. Who? 11 A. Abdeen Jabara issued some statements, Mr. Ramsey Clark 12 issued some statements. I did issue some statements myself. 13 MR. FALLICK: May I have one moment, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 Q. After the Sheikh was convicted and sentenced, did you 16 become aware of different individuals and groups calling for 17 the release of the Sheikh? 18 A. Through the years, yes. 19 Q. Who, if you know, called for the release of the Sheikh? 20 A. There were groups, they were individuals. I know of the 21 Abu Sayyef group. I know Taha also, the videotape with Taha, 22 Bin Laden, Al-Zawahiri. 23 I know about -- we heard about, you know, we heard 24 about Louis Farrakhan. There was Layth Shubaylat, S-H-A -- I 25 mean S-H-O-B-I-L-A-T. Phonetic. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10330 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 There were so many individuals, you know, through the 2 years, you know, that were asking for his release. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a moment with 4 Mr. Fallick? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Counsel conferring) 7 BY MR. FALLICK: 8 Q. Did there come a time that you learned that a group called 9 Abu Sayyaf asked for the Sheikh's release? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And how did you learn of their request or demand? 12 A. It was published in the newspapers here. 13 Q. And did you read the articles? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. And did you know who Abu Sayyaf was? 16 A. I know who Abu Sayyaf was, yes. I mean the group. 17 Q. And who is the group Abu Sayyaf? 18 A. It is a local Filipino group that fighting -- I cannot say 19 fighting the -- the Filipino government. 20 In my opinion, the Abu Sayyaf group, it is nothing 21 more than a gang. 22 Q. When you first learned of their demand, what was your 23 reaction to it? 24 A. When I first heard, learned of their demands I, my reaction 25 to it, you know, I spoke about it and I said, you know, I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10331 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 could, you know, use this as, you know, that people are asking 2 for the Sheikh's release. People are demanding the Sheikh to 3 be released. 4 I don't -- like I said, I don't agree with what they 5 are doing but I'm not going to say that. I'm going to just, 6 you know, I asked one of the reporters to mention this but I'm 7 not going to say that I agree or disagree with it. 8 But, actually, I disagreed with him. I stated my 9 opinion clearly to the reporter on the phone. I said I don't 10 support that. I disagree with that but I'm not going to say it 11 in public. 12 Q. Do you believe that the kidnapping of Americans or anyone 13 else or even threatening such kidnappings would secure the 14 Sheikh's release? 15 A. No. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Objection. Leading, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 Q. Do you recall if, after the Sheikh was convicted and 19 sentenced, whether the Islamic Group itself made demands for 20 his release? 21 A. Oh yeah, all the time. They were issuing statements all 22 the time. Not even -- even before his conviction, since the 23 day he was arrested they were threatening and issuing 24 statements asking for his release. On every occasion they were 25 saying those things demanding his release. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10332 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. What was your reaction, if any, to those statements made by 2 the Islamic Group? 3 A. It was just -- my reaction or my -- my reaction to this? 4 It was just, you know, another piece of paper that issued that 5 I know that they were from -- knowing, you know, the Islamic 6 Group and what they are, the conflict that's going between the 7 leaders and, you know, the peace initiative and all this, I 8 know this was just empty talk. It was just a propaganda thing 9 to say, you know, we are here, we are still alive and kicking. 10 This is what was my understanding of their things that 11 they were releasing. 12 Q. When you were talking about the Abu Sayyaf group, why did 13 you refer to them as a gang? 14 A. Well, Abu Sayyaf group is a group that, using kidnap for 15 ransom. They did it so many times. 16 As a matter of fact, when -- when they kidnapped those 17 people and they were, they asked for the release of the Sheikh, 18 it was right -- not far from that point, there was some 19 intervention by the Libyan government. And the Libyan 20 government paid $6 million to the Abu Sayyaf group and the Abu 21 Sayyaf group released all of those hostages. 22 So, in my opinion, it was nothing for the Sheikh. 23 They were just using the name of certain individuals just to 24 get money and to do, you know, to -- in my opinion, the Abu 25 Sayyaf group is not fighting for any cause, they are just, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10333 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 know, fighting -- it is like any gang. They want to make some 2 money, they want to just kidnap people, ransom, asking for 3 ransom. 4 They have nothing to do with, with any problems in the 5 Philippines. They're just using it as a tool for publicity. 6 That's it. 7 MR. FALLICK: May I have one moment, your Honor? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 BY MR. FALLICK: 10 Q. What did you believe, if anything, would secure the 11 Sheikh's release? 12 A. Public pressure, changing. The political situation in 13 Egypt. This probably will help the Sheikh's release. 14 Once the United States government realize that the 15 Sheikh has, you know, there is so many people out there asking 16 for his release and the public is, this is a public demand not 17 just you know, one person demand or two people's demand. This 18 is, will add. 19 And I am urging for, or I am still asking, even today, 20 for the release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 Q. Were you finished with your answer other than what you were 24 doing today? 25 A. I will say that only public pressure will help the Sheikh's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10334 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 release. 2 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I am about to move on to 3 another area. I am wondering if this would be a good time to 4 break. 5 THE COURT: Hold on. 6 MR. FALLICK: I can go on to another area, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Thank you. Thank you. 8 BY MR. FALLICK: 9 Q. Do you recall that, during the prison visit in July 2001, 10 there was a discussion about the Sheikh's money? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what was your understanding of that discussion about 13 the Sheikh's money? 14 A. In 2001 I was having some -- no, actually starting in 2000 15 I was having some problems as what I explained to you before; 16 that the Sheikh's expenses, you know, money was sent to his 17 family, his lawyers' visits. It was done through donations 18 from people who liked the Sheikh or who loved the Sheikh. 19 Through the years this kind of, the money was getting 20 less and less and less and the expenses were getting more and 21 more. The Sheikh's family, they needed more money. They want, 22 demanding, you know, more money, and I was trying to come up 23 with this money and I couldn't. 24 So, I talked -- I know the Sheikh had some money 25 that -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10335 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 Q. How did you know the Sheikh had some money? 2 A. I did, you know, through my, the Sheikh's authorization, 3 his power of attorney, I know he had some kind of business 4 dealing with some individuals in New Jersey. 5 I get this money from them -- I mean a check from 6 them, and this check was put in an escrow account for the 7 Sheikh. And so, I knew that he had some money so I asked if I 8 can take some of this money. I had a friend of mine who was 9 establishing a business, a baby formula business, so I asked if 10 I can take some of this money and invest it with him so I can 11 create an income for him. 12 Q. How much money did you receive? 13 A. $10,000. 14 Q. What did you do with the money? 15 A. I gave it to the person, who owned that business. 16 Q. Who was the person who owned the business? 17 A. Yousef Odeh. 18 Q. What was the business? 19 A. It was baby formula business. It was buying baby formula 20 wholesale and distributing it to retail -- retail stores. 21 Q. And were you part of that business? 22 A. I was -- I worked for Yousef Odeh, yes, and I was getting 23 paid for what I did. 24 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I only have two more -- may 25 I have one moment? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10336 4C95SAT2 Sattar - direct 1 THE COURT: Sure. 2 BY MR. FALLICK: 3 Q. When you say that you got the money to invest in Mr. Odeh's 4 business? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you said it was to create income for him, who was the 7 him? 8 A. The Sheikh. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I only have -- 10 THE COURT: All right. We can break for lunch at this 11 point. 12 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 13 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 14 lunch until 2:00. Please, please remember my instructions. 15 Please, don't talk about the case at all. Always remember to 16 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I 17 have instructed you on the law, you have gone to the jury room 18 to begin your deliberations. Have a good lunch. 19 All rise, please. 20 (Jury not present) 21 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 23 (Witness steps down) 24 THE COURT: Could I talk to the lawyers just briefly? 25 (Pages 10337-10340 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10341 4C9MSAT3 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 5 (Jury present) 6 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It 7 is good to see you. 8 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 9 Mr. Fletcher. 10 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 11 are still under oath. 12 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you, sir. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may proceed. 14 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 15 BY MR. FALLICK: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, in 2001, did you continue to connect Yunis with 17 other people? 18 A. No. 19 Q. In 2001, did you continue to connect Taha with other 20 people? 21 A. I don't think I did, no. 22 Q. Why not? 23 A. After Atia's death and the bad press during the peace 24 initiative, stuff that they said about me, that I'm a spy. 25 Those people are blaming everything on me. I did not speak to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10342 4C9MSAT3 1 Yunis. If I did, it probably -- maybe he called once or 2 something, but I tried to just, you know, stay away from him. 3 And with Taha I spoke to him a few times maybe in January or up 4 until February 2001, and after that I have not spoken to him at 5 all after that. He just, you know, vanished. 6 Q. In 2001, did you engage in any activities on behalf of the 7 Sheikh? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. What were those activities? 10 A. I was writing statements in the name of the Sheikh Omar 11 Abdel Rahman defense committee. I was still speaking on his 12 behalf any chance that I can. 13 Q. In 2001, did you have a conversation with anyone about 14 making an effort to achieve a political solution in Egypt? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And do you recall when you had that conversation? 17 A. That was probably in January or February 2001. 18 Q. With whom did you have that conversation? 19 A. I had that conversation -- many conversations actually with 20 a man named Nagi Motosh. 21 Q. Who was Nagi Motosh? 22 A. Nagi Motosh is a friend of mine that I know for many years 23 from -- from Brooklyn, you know. I know him from Brooklyn when 24 I -- we attend the mosque together in Brooklyn. 25 Q. Do you know if he had some relationship to the Egyptian SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10343 4C9MSAT3 1 government? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. And do you know what that relationship was? 4 A. Well, Nagi's uncle had a relationship with Egyptian 5 national advisor, counsel to President Mubarak. 6 Q. Following your conversations with Nagi Motosh, did you 7 discuss the contents of them with anyone? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Who? 10 A. I discussed with Rifa'i Taha and with Yasir Al-Sirri. 11 Q. Why did you discuss it with Mr. Taha? 12 A. I discussed it with Rifa'i Taha because he was -- he is 13 actually what we -- me and Nagi was trying to do was to bring a 14 political solution to what's going on in Egypt, and Rifa'i Taha 15 was a part of that. 16 Q. As a result of your conversations with Taha, was any 17 document prepared? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Who prepared the document? 20 A. Taha sent me some points. I wrote these points on my 21 computer in the form of a letter, and addressed it to Nagi 22 Motosh, and I give it to Nagi. 23 Q. Were the documents seized on your computer? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Was the document on your computer? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10344 4C9MSAT3 1 A. It was on my computer, yes. 2 Q. Was your computer seized by the government? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. After your computer was seized were you able to retrieve 5 this document? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 8 AS-16 in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you have that before you, AS-16? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, what is AS-16? 13 A. AS-16 is the letter that I wrote to Nagi, including the 14 nine points that I received from Taha. 15 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I now display to the 16 jury AS-16-T in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you have that before you? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. And what is AS-16-T? 21 A. It is a translation of AS-16. 22 Q. Are these the nine points that Mr. Taha sent to you 23 concerning Nagi Motosh's request about trying to find a 24 political solution in Egypt? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10345 4C9MSAT3 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I read this to the jury 2 now? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit AS-16-T in 5 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 6 Q. After receiving these nine points, what did you do with 7 them? 8 A. I wrote that letter, the introduction and the end of it, 9 and I give it to Nagi Motosh to deliver to the representative 10 of the Egyptian government. 11 Q. Following your giving of the nine points to Nagi Motosh, 12 did you have a conversation with -- 13 A. With him? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Yes. 16 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 17 and publish to the jury Defendant's Exhibit AS-14-T in 18 evidence? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize what SA-14-T is? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. What is it? 23 A. It is a conversation between me and Nagi Motosh. 24 Q. This was on February 19, 2001? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10346 4C9MSAT3 1 Q. Is this following your sending him Taha's nine points? 2 A. It is -- I am not sure if it is following the nine points 3 or we were talking about giving him the nine points. I mean -- 4 Q. I would like you to read -- 5 A. It was around that time. 6 Q. I would like to you to read your attributions and I will 7 read those of Nagi Motosh. 8 (At this point, Defendant's Exhibit AS-14-T in 9 evidence, displayed and read to the jury) 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, let me interrupt here. What was your 11 understanding of who the relative was that he went to see in 12 Washington? 13 A. This is his uncle, the one who was supposed to give that 14 letter to the Egyptian national security advisor. 15 Read from two attributions from the bottom for 16 yourself. 17 (Reading continued) 18 Q. What was your understanding of the people who Nagi Motosh 19 spoke with? 20 A. I was referring to Rifa'i Taha. 21 (Reading continued) 22 Q. Who are you referring to in that passage? 23 A. Rifa'i Taha. 24 Q. What was your understanding of what he was saying? 25 A. He says, do not give this nine points to them unless they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10347 4C9MSAT3 1 really, you know, talking seriously about negotiating, or do 2 you want to have a solution or a political solution. 3 (Reading continued) 4 Q. What does ustaz mean? 5 A. It is not an Arabic word. It is a Turkish word. It means 6 professor. We use it in Arabic as a form of respect. 7 (Reading continued) 8 Q. What did you mean by readiness? 9 A. That the people in Egypt or the representative of the 10 government of Egypt, they are to talk. They have the readiness 11 to talk. 12 (Reading continued) 13 Q. Mr. Sattar, what was your understanding of who the other 14 party was? 15 A. The Egyptian government. 16 (Reading continued) 17 Q. Mr. Sattar, what was your understanding when Mr. Motosh 18 said I submitted what you told me about regarding the other 19 party? 20 A. Okay. Here it is a little vague here, if I may explain. 21 The first offer, it was -- it came as a personal offer from 22 Nagi to intervene on my behalf so I can go visit Egypt and see 23 my mother. So I told him that, you know, for me it is not a 24 personal thing. There is thousands of others like me who have 25 this problem. If you can intervene, if you have this line of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10348 4C9MSAT3 1 communication with people in high places in the Egyptian 2 government, why can't you and I try to do something to solve 3 this problem? And then he was convinced with my point of view, 4 and he -- that's what he is talking about now and he says that 5 he was convinced that he went to the other party and this is 6 that part of the conversation here. 7 Q. Continue reading, please. 8 (Reading continued) 9 Q. What were you referring to in that passage? 10 A. I'm referring to that uncle. 11 (Reading continued) 12 Q. What was your understanding about? 13 A. I'm asking him if his uncle agreed to what I told him about 14 involving al-Gama'a al-Islamiya or Rifa'i Taha, and he 15 submitted that suggestion to the Egyptian government. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, what was your understanding of why Nagi Motosh 17 reached out to you? 18 A. Well, Nagi knows me for great number of years, and he 19 really did care about me. We have been friends for so many 20 years. You know, he knows that I am an outspoken person. I 21 cannot -- because of my speeches against the Egyptian 22 government that I cannot go back to Egypt anymore. I cannot 23 visit anymore. So he tried to help me out to solve this 24 problem between me and the Egyptian government so I can go and 25 see my family. And it turned out to what we just saw in this SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10349 4C9MSAT3 1 conversation. I tried to make -- it is an overall solution to 2 the problems facing many other Egyptians outside and inside 3 Egypt. 4 Q. Was there any response to the nine points? 5 A. I get a response, yes. 6 Q. What was the response? 7 A. Unfortunately, it was no. 8 Q. When did that response come? 9 A. That was a few weeks after this conversation. 10 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I read and publish to 11 the jury a stipulation that has been marked as AS-20 in 12 evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. Has AS-20 been admitted in evidence? 14 MR. FALLICK: I'm sorry, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Was AS-20 admitted in evidence. 16 MR. FALLICK: I offer it into evidence, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: No objection. AS-20 received in evidence. 18 (Defendant's Exhibit AS-20 received in evidence) 19 MR. FALLICK: The parties hereby stipulate and agree 20 that the audio CD marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibit AS-17A is a CD 21 containing a true and accurate telephone conversation 22 intercepted by the FBI between Ahmed Sattar and another person 23 on September 18, 2001 pursuant to a court-authorized wiretap. 24 The transcripts marked as Ahmed Sattar Exhibits 21T 25 and 22T are true and accurate translations of the corresponding SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10350 4C9MSAT3 1 conversations contained in Sattar Exhibit 17A. 2 All voice attributions on Sattar Exhibit 17A, that is, 3 all identifications -- it should say all voice attributions on 4 Sattar Exhibits 21T and 22T, that is, all identifications on 5 the transcripts of who is speaking at a particular time, truly 6 and accurately identifies the speaker on the corresponding CD. 7 Agreed to and stipulated by all of the parties. 8 Your Honor, at this time AS-17A is in evidence. And 9 we offer as aids to the jury AS-21-T and 22-T because the 10 conversation that we are going to ask to play is a English 11 conversation. 12 THE COURT: AS-21-T and AS-22-T received as aids to 13 the jury's listening to the recordings. 14 (Defendant's Exhibits AS-21-T and AS-22-T received in 15 evidence) 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it is my understanding that 17 Mr. Fallick is offering the corresponding audio files. 18 MR. FALLICK: That's correct, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Is that 17A? 20 MR. MORVILLO: There are many audio files contained on 21 17A. To the extent they are in evidence, they correspond to 22 transcripts that have been offered. 23 THE COURT: The corresponding audio files that 24 correspond to the transcripts 21-T and 22-T are received in 25 evidence. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10351 4C9MSAT3 1 (Defendant's Exhibit AS-17A received in evidence) 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, my understanding is, they 3 are received in evidence subject to a limiting instruction. 4 MR. FALLICK: That's correct. 5 THE COURT: Those audio files, ladies and gentlemen, 6 are admitted not for the truth of any of the matters asserted 7 in those recordings, but solely with respect to the knowledge, 8 intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I just have a moment 10 with Mr. Fallick? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I think we need to take a 13 break before we can play the audiotapes. 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 Ladies and gentlemen, we will take a 10-minute break. 16 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please don't talk 17 about this case at all. Always remember to keep an open mind 18 until you have heard all of the evidence, I've instructed you 19 on the law, and you've gone to the jury room to begin your 20 deliberations. 21 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 22 the jury room. 23 (Jury not present) 24 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. Please be 25 seated for a moment. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10352 4C9MSAT3 1 Was the limiting instruction satisfactory? Because 2 when it was introduced I was just told it was subject to a 3 limiting instruction. From the description of what was going 4 on, I deduced that these were the transcripts that I had 5 already passed on in terms of a motion in limine, and they were 6 being introduced. To the extent that it required a limiting 7 instruction, they were introduced to the extent that they were 8 statements by Mr. Sattar, statements of his, knowledge, intent 9 and state of mind, which is why I gave the instruction in the 10 way in which I did. 11 MR. FALLICK: That is correct, your Honor. When you 12 passed on the in limine motion, there were three transcripts we 13 submitted to the Court, three separate phone calls. We are 14 only going to use one of those phone calls. 15 THE COURT: I just wanted to make sure that the 16 parties were satisfied with the instruction. 17 MR. TIGAR: The limiting instruction is solely as to 18 the knowledge, intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar, is that 19 correct, your Honor? 20 THE COURT: Yes. But I'll be happy to say that. 21 MR. TIGAR: That's what I read on the screen, your 22 Honor, but I wanted to make double sure so I don't interrupt. 23 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, that's what the transcript 24 says. 25 (Recess) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10353 4C9MSAT3 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 2 The limiting instruction was satisfactory to the 3 parties, but it really should say: It is the audio files are 4 admitted solely with respect to the knowledge, intent, and 5 state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 6 MR. FALLICK: That's clearly correct, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Right? 8 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 9 MR. PAUL: May I approach for a second, your Honor? I 10 don't believe Mr. Sattar has one. 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Jury present) 13 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 14 Mr. Fletcher. 15 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 16 you are still under oath. 17 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, the limiting 19 instruction with respect to the audio files that I just 20 admitted into evidence and the transcripts that are an aid to 21 your listening to the audio files should be that: These 22 recordings, these audio files are admitted solely with respect 23 to the knowledge, intent, and state of mind of Mr. Sattar. 24 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 25 BY MR. FALLICK: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10354 4C9MSAT3 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, after September 11, 2001, did you talk to 2 anyone about what had occurred? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. To whom did you talk? 5 A. I spoke to my coworker, Joanne. 6 Q. Where was she a coworker? 7 A. She worked with me at the post office for the past 14 8 years. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, at this time we ask 10 permission to play the audio file, which is an English 11 conversation that corresponds to AS-21-T and AS-22-T in 12 evidence as aids to the jury. 13 THE COURT: The jurors should put on their headsets, 14 dot facing forward, turn them on. 15 MR. PAUL: Excuse me, Judge. A juror needs a headset. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. You can start from the top. 17 (At this point Defendant's Exhibit AS-17A in evidence, 18 displayed and played to the jury) 19 (Continued on next page) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10355 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, this conversation continues. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FALLICK: That ends the phone call, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Ladies and gentlemen, you can take the headsets off, 6 turn them off. 7 MR. FALLICK: May I proceed? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 BY MR. FALLICK:: 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall that during the course of this 11 trial, the government has played and offered into evidence 12 approximately 220 transcripts of telephone calls? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And do you recall that many, in fact virtually all of these 15 calls, had some relation to you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Do you recall that either you are a participant in these 18 calls or that you connected others to -- other persons to other 19 persons during these calls? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. How would you describe what you were doing in connection 22 with all these phone calls? 23 A. Just being me. Trying to help somebody. Trying to help. 24 Q. Were you present, obviously you were, during the course of 25 the trial, when Mr. Barkow read to the jury excerpts from SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10356 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Taha's book? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And did you have a copy of this book? 4 A. Yes, I did have a copy on my computer. Yes. 5 Q. And how did you get the copy? 6 A. It was e-mailed to me by Taha. 7 Q. And why did he send it to you? 8 A. He sent it to me for one purpose, for Sheikh Omar Abdel 9 Rahman to take a look at it and see if his religious quotations 10 and theory and what he is saying it is correct from an Islamic 11 view. 12 THE COURT: Please, keep your voice up. 13 Q. Did you send it to the Sheikh? 14 A. I tried to. 15 Q. Do you know if he received it? 16 A. No, he did not receive it, that -- 17 Q. Did you read the book? 18 A. I went through it. I read a big chunk of it, yes. 19 Q. What was your opinion of what Taha was trying to convey in 20 his book? 21 A. Basically Taha was trying to justify all the violence that 22 took place in Egypt from 1990 until 1997 and to just make a 23 justification for those things. 24 Q. Did you agree with what he wrote in his book? 25 A. No, I did not. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10357 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 Q. Did you agree with his interpretation of the Quran and 2 Islamic jurisprudence that was contained in the book? 3 A. No, I did not agree with his interpretation of the Quran or 4 the Islamic jurisprudence in his book. 5 Q. Do you support the killing of Jews or Israelis? 6 A. No, I condemn the killing of Jews and Israelis as much as I 7 condemn the killing of @Palestinians. 8 Q. Do you support the killing of Christians? 9 A. No. I was married to one at one point before she converted 10 to Islam. My father-in-law is still Christian, my 11 mother-in-law is still Christian. My brother-in-law and 12 sister-in-law are still Christian. 13 Q. Did Taha advocate using hostile strategy against the United 14 States? 15 A. Taha, yes, he advocated using hostile strategy against the 16 United States. 17 Q. What was your understanding of what he meant by the term 18 "hostile strategy?" 19 A. He used the threats of using violence against the United 20 States. 21 Q. Did you agree with his viewpoint? 22 A. No. 23 My dealing with Taha was mainly about Egypt. You 24 know, we always, you know -- 99 percent of the time we're 25 talking about Egypt, about what's going on in Egypt. What I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10358 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 was -- what I was concerned about is, you know, I mean, with 2 Taha, is Egypt. We talked about the Sheikh also but, you know, 3 it was mainly Egypt. 4 Q. Did Taha advocate using violence against Egypt? 5 A. Taha advocate using violence against the Egyptian 6 government, yes. 7 Q. Did you agree with that viewpoint? 8 A. No, I did not. 9 Q. Did you know or come to know that Taha had committed 10 violent acts, before you ever spoke with him in 1999? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Did you consider Taha a militant? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Why, then, did you speak with him from 1999 to 2001? 15 A. Concerning Egypt, I felt that Taha could be useful. Taha, 16 his militancy could be used as a pressure card to bring the 17 Egyptian government to negotiate in good faith. I felt like 18 Taha could be used as what I said before, as a foil to bring 19 the Egyptian government to the negotiation table. 20 Q. Did you consider Atia to be a militant? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did you consider the Sheikh to be a militant? 23 A. Yes and no. 24 Q. What do you mean by yes and no? 25 A. If you see the Sheikh's -- if you hear the Sheikh's sermons SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10359 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 and speeches he will come across as militant. But if you put 2 it in the context of the text or the understanding of Islam, it 3 will -- you know, you will have a different point, a different 4 view on him. 5 So I cannot just, you know, sit here today and say, 6 you know, he is a militant or he is not a militant. It is 7 just, you know, this is -- you have to really understand what 8 the man was saying and, you know, you have to look hard into 9 his speeches, his sermons, his lessons and put them in 10 historic -- you know, just look at the full picture, don't take 11 just one sermon or two sermons out of the context. 12 Q. Did you ever advocate the use of violence against anyone? 13 A. No, I did not advocate the use of violence against anyone. 14 Esspecially -- I mean, except if it is in self-defense, yes, I 15 advocate self-defense. I do not advocate aggression. 16 Q. Do you believe America is an enemy of Islam? 17 A. I don't believe that America is an enemy of Islam but I do 18 believe that the United States government hostile to Muslims 19 and hostile to Islam. 20 Q. Did you conspire with any other person to defraud the 21 United States by violating the Special Administrative Measures 22 imposed upon Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 23 A. I did not conspire with anybody to defraud the United 24 States government. All I did is I asked for a letter to be 25 delivered to the Sheikh and it was delivered. I never SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10360 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 conspired with anybody. 2 Q. Did you conspire with any other person to kill, or kidnap 3 any person in a foreign country? 4 A. I never conspired in my life with anybody to kill or to 5 kidnap any person anywhere in the world. 6 Q. Did you solicit any other person to commit a violent crime? 7 A. I did not solicit any person to commit violence anywhere. 8 Q. Did there come a time that you became an American citizen? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. When was that? 11 A. That was in 1989. 12 Q. Did you have to take an oath to become a citizen? 13 A. Yes, I did. 14 Q. What was that oath? 15 A. The oath was to protect the American -- the United States 16 Constitution. 17 Q. Have you honored that oath since 1989? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 MR. FALLICK: I have no further questions, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 21 the day and we will resume Monday at 9:30. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, it's the weekend and let me 23 emphasize again, with all of the force my words can convey, 24 please, please, don't talk about this case at all among 25 yourselves or with anyone else when you go home over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10361 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 weekend. 2 Please don't look at or listen to anything to do with 3 the case. If you should see or hear something inadvertently, 4 please, simply turn away. As I have told you before, you are 5 in the best position to see and hear everything that is 6 relevant to your decision in this case. So, please, don't look 7 at or listen to anything to do with the case. Don't talk to 8 anyone about the case. 9 Always remember to keep an open mind until you have 10 heard all of the evidence, I have instructed you on the law, 11 and have you gone to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 12 Fairness and justice to the parties requires that you do that. 13 With that, have a very good weekend and I look 14 forward, very much, to seeing you on Monday morning at 9:30. 15 All rise, please. 16 (Continued on next page) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10362 4C95SAT4 Sattar - direct 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Witness steps down) 5 THE COURT: Please, be seated. 6 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I just retrieve these? 7 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Tigar? 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if Mr. Tigar wants to be heard 9 on the access motion, I just would request a five minute recess 10 before that. 11 THE COURT: Sure. We will take five minutes. 12 (Recess) 13 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 14 MR. TIGAR: May I stand at the lectern, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. TIGAR: Thank you. 17 Your Honor, we have filed our letter of December the 18 7th relating to Mr. Taha, Mr. Hamza, and to, it a lesser 19 extent, to Sheikh Abdel Rahman's two sons. We did that within 20 hours after receiving the internet newspaper reports that we 21 attached. And although the letter asks for information about 22 Messrs. Taha and Hamza, and about their whereabouts, it is also 23 our request that the United States obtain whatever statements 24 may have already been taken from them if they are in Egyptian 25 custody, and make them available to us so that we can interview SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10363 4C95SAT4 1 them and obtain their testimony for purposes of this case. 2 The government responds that our request is 3 insufficiently detailed and that it is untimely, and also in a 4 footnote, discusses the potential classified status of 5 information concerning these two people. 6 With respect to the timeliness, it is true that 7 Ms. Stewart has rested but the evidence is still open and we 8 notified the Court as soon as we got this information. We 9 could not have provided any information or request earlier 10 because our investigations in Egypt, which we conducted with 11 the aid of CJA funds, revealed that all those in a position to 12 know believed that Mr. Taha was very probably dead and, at the 13 very least, was not in Egypt. 14 And we did conduct those investigations diligently. 15 We sent people to Egypt. We interviewed those who were in a 16 position to know. 17 With respect to Mr. Taha, the matter is not concluded, 18 we suggest, by this Court's analysis with respect to the 19 Sheikh's sons. Mr. Taha's words and deeds have been central to 20 the government's case. 21 The newspaper report is that he has been interrogated 22 and has refused to renounce violence. Mr. Taha is in a 23 position to provide first-hand information with respect to many 24 issues that have been litigated in this case. His voice 25 appears on many of the tape recordings introduced in evidence SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10364 4C95SAT4 1 by the government and on documents introduced by the government 2 and read to the jury, as well as the television broadcast. 3 His words and conduct were the subject of Mr. Sattar's 4 defense presentation and his existence and views were the 5 subject of many, many questions put to Mr. Yousry during his 6 cross-examination, it having been the government's position 7 that Mr. Yousry was insufficiently forthcoming about Mr. Taha. 8 So, it cannot be said that Mr. Taha is irrelevant to 9 the case -- indeed, he is central. 10 The same could be said of Mr. Hamza. His name is all 11 over this case, as is his involvement with the activities of 12 the Islamic Group. 13 Therefore, the importance of this information, we 14 don't think, can be doubted. 15 So, the question becomes, Well, what can this Court 16 direct the United States to do? And even if this Court cannot 17 direct the United States to do something and the United States 18 declines to do something, which it so far does, can be, will we 19 be entitled, at some point down the road, to a missing witness 20 instruction or to something else? 21 And the short answer is that this Court can direct the 22 United States and that there are two avenues by which the 23 United States executive branch has access to the information 24 that we seek, and we request that the United States explore 25 both of them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10365 4C95SAT4 1 The first is what I might call the irregular channel. 2 It has already been reported extensively that Secretary Powell 3 has been in consultation directly with the Egyptian ministry of 4 security and has been urging the Egyptian government to go 5 easier with respect to its treatment of dissidents. 6 In addition to that, we filed a motion with the Court 7 with respect to the United States irregularly transferring 8 prisoners to Egypt. That was in connection with a selective 9 prosecution motion. 10 But, we have reason to believe that that information 11 is true, that is, the United States is in regular cooperation 12 with Egyptian security forces. Indeed, the London Times now 13 reports that the irregular transfer about which we already 14 informed the Court was accomplished by means of a Gulfstream V 15 aircraft, tail number November-379-Papa that is leased by the 16 United States through a Massachusetts company; and that other 17 prisoner transfers to Egypt have taken place in a Boeing 737 18 leased from the same provider, tail number November-313-Papa. 19 The Swedish government and the United States have been 20 in discussions because the two prisoners taken reported that 21 they had been tortured. That's the irregular channel. 22 Now, that might be classified, it's true, but we have 23 now found out and our research has just revealed that on, that 24 the State Department has reported that it intends to use and 25 relies on the mutual legal assistance treaty between the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10366 4C95SAT4 1 States and Egypt signed May 3, 1998, in Cairo, and finally 2 ratified by the United States Senate on October 18th, 2000. 3 The State Department issued a press report about this 4 treaty on November 29th, 2001 and I have a copy here. 5 The EMLAT between the United States and Egypt 6 identifies the Attorney General of the United States as the 7 central authority for the United States. That is to say, the 8 boss of these prosecutors. It provides -- that's in Article 9 II. 10 Article IV of the treaty provides that requests under 11 the treaty can be made orally as well as under the formal 12 written procedures required by the treaty, that those requests 13 can include requests for testimony, documents, and even for the 14 transfer to the United States of Mr. Taha and Mr. Hamza for 15 purposes of giving testimony in this country if the treaty 16 conditions are met. 17 There would be a question, your Honor, does the treaty 18 confer rights on individuals? That is to say, we would not be 19 able to issue a subpoena to non-United States citizens, indeed 20 to anyone, for service outside the United States. However, 21 given that the treaty is available and that the United States 22 has something like compulsory process available to it, the 23 question would be whether this Court could order, in the 24 service of Ms. Stewart's Sixth Amendment right of compulsory 25 process, the United States to take steps under the treaty to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10367 4C95SAT4 1 acquire this evidence. 2 We believe, your Honor, that it is government's 3 obligation, having opened the door to the relevance of Mr. Taha 4 and Mr. Hamza's involvement, has the obligation, enforceable by 5 an order of this Court, to take steps available to it under 6 this treaty, under this EMLAT to obtain this information or, at 7 the very least, to make inquiry as to whether the information 8 is available. Because the discovery obligation that the United 9 States extends not only to material in its custody and control 10 but to things that could be in its custody or control. As I 11 say, it having opened the door. 12 It must be recalled in this connection that the entire 13 chain of events that brings us here began with this Mr. Salem 14 who was working simultaneously with the United States and the 15 Egyptian government in recording Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 16 conversations. 17 So, we are not writing on a clean slate here. The 18 government cannot make a deal with the Egyptians for one 19 purpose and then decline to carry through its logical 20 conclusion when it appears that information helpful to the 21 defense could be obtained. 22 That, your Honor, is our submission. What the 23 government characterizes as our vague reference to events since 24 the Court's prior ruling, we submit, is not vague at all. That 25 is, the Supreme Court's decision in Hamdi and the ongoing SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10368 4C95SAT4 1 litigation in front of Judge Joyce Hens Green in the District 2 of Columbia is what we were referring to there. That is, the 3 protestation that national security is a kind of iron curtain 4 between detainees and the truth, or detainees and access to due 5 process. That proposition has gone away. 6 And, indeed, the United States, under Hamdi and its 7 progeny, has begun offering these hearings. And whether the 8 hearings are good or bad or lawful or unlawful, the fact is 9 that the conditions about which the United States informed the 10 Court at that time no longer exist. 11 As I say, that's quite independent of the particular 12 relationship of the United States and Egypt that relates to the 13 Hamza and Taha situations. 14 I have here a copy of the treaty. The treaty itself 15 is at 1998 WL 1788081. I have a copy of the State Department 16 press release if the Court would like it, although I think it 17 simply describes the existence of the treaty. 18 The ratification instrument is aavailable at a 19 website, HTTP//thomas.loc.government/CGI-bin/ntquery. 20 The treaty was ratified with some reservations, none 21 of which is relevant here. There were reservations concerning 22 political offenses which don't relate to this matter because 23 the Egyptian government was pointing out that it doesn't 24 recognize the concept so that wouldn't be a limitation. And 25 the only other reservation of significance is that you can't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10369 4C95SAT4 1 use the treaty to get information for the international 2 criminal court until the United States ratifies the Rome 3 treaty, which it has not done. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Ms. Baker? 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, the bottom line is that 7 Ms. Stewart's application is premised upon the notion that she 8 has some sort of compulsory process right to the relief that 9 she seeks here. And Mr. Tigar's presentation did not address 10 the issue that the government set forth in its letter, which is 11 that this Court has already found that there is a particular 12 standard that has to be satisfied for a defendant to seek this 13 Court's assistance with compulsory process. 14 And the Supreme Court and Second Circuit case law that 15 the government has previously cited to the Court makes clear 16 that it's not sufficient for the defendant to allege that the 17 people to whom she seeks access were co-conspirators, or even 18 central co-conspirators in the activity at issue in the case. 19 That does not meet the standard that this Court has recognized 20 is required by the Second Circuit and the Supreme Court. 21 Therefore, the application should be denied. 22 MR. TIGAR: I believe, your Honor, that Mr. Taha, if 23 called as a witness in this case, would testify that he has 24 never spoken to Lynne Stewart, that he did not join a 25 conspiracy with Lynne Stewart to do anything. That, in fact, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10370 4C95SAT4 1 he was pursuing -- that he was fired from the Shura, the 2 consultative counsel, that he remained outside of Egypt until 3 he was rendered back to Egypt; that his activity consisted of 4 his own effort to "get something going" with respect to 5 violence in Egypt, that he recognized that the Islamic Group, 6 by the calendar year 1998, had become a shadow of whatever he 7 had hoped it would be, that he was not capable of carrying out 8 any violent activities, that so far as he was aware it didn't 9 have the capacity to do so, that therefore there was the risk 10 of any harm coming as a result of his activity was in fact 11 minimal. 12 He would be able to testify about the fact that the, a 13 statement of opinion issued with respect to withdrawal from the 14 cease-fire would not in fact be capable of causing violence 15 because of the settled opinion of those who were prisoners in 16 the Liman and that, in fact, although he had a hope that Sheikh 17 Abdel Rahman would cancel the cease-fire, that Sheikh Abdel 18 Rahman didn't in fact do that. And that Sheikh Abdel Rahman, 19 in fact, by the specific language -- specific language that he 20 used in the response to the query raised -- reinforced the 21 authority of the Islamic Group members who were inside Egypt -- 22 inside being a word the Sheikh used advisedly -- that although 23 he hoped for a direct response he never got one and that, 24 therefore, the conspiracy, which is charged in Count Two of 25 this indictment, is an invention of the United States. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10371 4C95SAT4 1 THE COURT: All right. Anything further? 2 MR. TIGAR: Excuse me, I'm sorry. And that Mr. Hamza 3 would testify to similar effect, based on his knowledge of 4 events in Egypt. 5 THE COURT: All right, anything further? 6 Okay, I will take the application under advisement. 7 Thank you. 8 Anything else? I will see you Monday at 9:00. 9 Do the parties have anything else to tell me about 10 timing? No. All right. 11 (Adjourned to 9:00 a.m., Monday, December 13, 2004) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10372 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Direct By Mr. Fallick . . . . . . . . . . . 10265 5 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS 6 Exhibit No. Received 7 AS-20 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10349 8 AS-21-T and AS-22-T . . . . . . . . . . . 10350 9 AS-17A . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10351 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300