10373 4CD5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 13, 2004 8 9:42 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10374 4CD5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, all. Please, be seated. 3 Good morning, all. I believe that Mr. Sattar is on the stand 4 and that we are, the next person to examine is Mr. Morvillo? 5 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. Your Honor, as far as 6 scheduling goes, Mr. Fallick and I spoke and he would request 7 that about every 45 to 50 minutes we take a break, so I will 8 try to stick to that schedule. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10375 4CD5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 3 THE JURY: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: It is good to see you all, as always. 5 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 6 Mr. Fletcher? 7 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 8 are still under oath. 9 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 10 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, continued. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may examine. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 13 CROSS EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, it's your understanding that Rifa'i Taha 16 considered the United States to be an enemy, right? 17 A. Do I consider Rifa'i Taha? 18 Q. Rifa'i Taha considered the United States of America to be 19 an enemy, correct? 20 A. I don't understand that he considered the United States to 21 be an enemy. I know he has, he has showed hostility toward the 22 United States. I know he -- or toward the United States 23 policies, but I really don't know if he considered the United 24 States to be an enemy. Maybe he said something, you know, in 25 that effect. Could be, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10376 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Didn't he sign Osama Bin Laden's fatwah in 1998 calling for 2 the murder of Americans everywhere? 3 A. Yes, he did. And this is, you know, he signed the fatwah 4 calling for the murder of Americans everywhere including me and 5 my kids and my wife too. 6 Of the fatwah we have, I read it, I heard about it, 7 and I did not agree with it. 8 Q. I was asking you about your understanding of Rifa'i Taha's 9 views. 10 A. Yes, he did. He did that. 11 Q. And so, it's fair to say that he considered the United 12 States of America to be his enemy? 13 A. I could say that, yes. 14 Q. And it's also your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman 15 considered the United States of America to be his enemy? 16 A. I really don't know that. 17 Q. You read his speeches? 18 A. I did read -- I did read, yes, some of his speeches during 19 the trial. I heard some of his speeches -- some of his 20 speeches in the mosques, yes. 21 Q. And didn't he repeatedly state in his speeches that the 22 United States is the enemy of Islam? 23 A. I don't know that. I know he criticized the United States 24 but, you know, I really don't recall that he stated that the 25 United States is an enemy of Islam. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10377 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Are you familiar with the speech by Abdel Rahman in which 2 he stated, there are two main enemies, the enemy who is at the 3 foremost of the work against Islam, are America and the allies? 4 MR. TIGAR: May we have a time? 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. TIGAR: When these things are read? 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. MORVILLO: I'm reading from Government Exhibit 9 200T, which is a speech given by Sheikh Abdel Rahman in 1992 10 and 1993. 11 THE WITNESS: Can you repeat that quotation again, 12 please? 13 Q. Certainly. There are two main enemies, the enemy who is at 14 the foremost of the work against Islam, are America and the 15 allies. 16 A. Yes. He is -- there is two more enemies You have to put 17 the -- as what I said about the Sheikh's speeches and you have 18 to put it in the context. 19 This, as what you said, this was in 1992, 1993. There 20 is, at this time, you have to look at the circumstances where 21 the Sheikh said those words. You know, I don't take it as he 22 is saying there is, you know, that the United States is an 23 enemy of Islam. He said there is two enemies working against 24 Muslims or Islam. 25 If I'm sitting there and listening to the whole speech SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10378 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 I will understand exactly. You are just taking, isolating one 2 quotation, isolating one thing from the Sheikh's speech and you 3 just saying it. 4 In my opinion, I don't think the Sheikh looked at the 5 United States as an enemy of Islam. He was living here when he 6 was saying that. Maybe he disagreed with some of the United 7 States' policies, yes, as many Muslims in the United States and 8 outside the United States would disagree with the United 9 States' foreign policy, especially in the middle east. 10 So when he is saying those things, you know, that's 11 probably what he meant. 12 Q. Yes, and he also called for the murder of Americans 13 everywhere, correct? 14 A. Yes, he did. He did. He did say that in that statement 15 that we showed here, yes. And I explained to you and I said 16 this is, you know, an angry statement he -- I do not agree with 17 it. 18 Q. And he also stated that it is forbidden to join the United 19 States Army because this is helping the American Army, enemies 20 of God and enemies of Islam, and that was a speech he gave in 21 the early '90s as well. Are you familiar with that? 22 A. He said that? 23 Q. It is forbidden to join the American Army? 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. Because that's helping the American Army and that the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10379 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 American Army is an enemy of God and they're enemies of Islam. 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, is it your understanding that the United States 4 of America considered Rifa'i Taha to be a threat to national 5 security? 6 A. I don't think, you know, that I could, you know, back then 7 when I was speaking to Rifa'i Taha that Rifa'i Taha was a 8 threat to national security. I know that, you know, he had, he 9 was hostile to the -- he had some hostile views against the 10 United States and but, you know, a threat to national security 11 I don't -- I did not know that he was a threat to national 12 security. 13 Q. My question to you was, was it your understanding that the 14 United States government considered Rifa'i Taha to be a threat 15 to its national security? 16 A. I don't know. 17 Q. You are familiar with the fact that the United States 18 government designated him as a terrorist, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Is it your understanding that the United States -- 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have a limiting 22 instruction with respect to this, what the United States 23 government did? 24 THE COURT: All right. This is received for the 25 witness' state of mind -- knowledge, intent and state of mind. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10380 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Is that correct? 2 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. 3 MR. TIGAR: And not for the truth, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Not for the truth of the matters asserted 5 but for the witness' knowledge, intent and state of mind. 6 Correct? 7 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. The designation is in 8 evidence. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MORVILLO: I'm not sure if the witness answered 11 the last question so may I pose it again, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: The reporter can read back the last full 13 question and answer and then there was the beginning of another 14 question. 15 (Record read) 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, is it also your understanding that the United 19 States government considered Sheikh Abdel Rahman to be a threat 20 to its national security? 21 A. I know that the Sheikh was designated as a terrorist, you 22 know, if that's what you mean. 23 Q. And so then it would be your understanding that the reason 24 why the United States did that is because they considered him 25 to be a threat to its national security? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10381 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I don't know that, if the Sheikh was a threat to national 2 security. 3 Q. At the end of your testimony last week, Mr. Sattar, you 4 told us that you took an oath when you became a United States 5 citizen in 1989, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And as part of that oath you promised to support and defend 8 the constitution and laws of the United States of America 9 against all enemies, foreign and domestic, didn't you? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I approach? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, I've handed you what's been marked for 15 identification as Government Exhibit 800. 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Have you seen this document before? 18 A. Have I seen it before? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, did you have an opportunity to review it before your 22 testimony here? 23 A. Yes, I looked at it before. Yes. 24 Q. Does it fairly and accurately represent your knowledge with 25 respect to the individuals that you were talking to, their SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10382 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 aliases, and the places where they were located? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government would offer 4 Government Exhibit 800 as a demonstrative exhibit with respect 5 to Mr. Sattar. 6 MR. FALLICK: No objection, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 800 8 received in evidence as a demonstrative aid. 9 (Government's Exhibit 800 received in evidence) 10 MR. MORVILLO: May I display it to the jury, your 11 Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 800, it is a map, 14 correct? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. There are indications on the map as to where various 17 individuals with whom you were speaking were located, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the map indicates with the telephone in the left-hand 20 corner New York City; and that's your name, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And if you go across, the United Kingdom, that's where 23 Yasir Al-Sirri was located? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And he lived in London, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10383 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. He lived in London, yes. 2 Q. And you're aware that he was a militant, too, right? 3 A. No, I am not aware that he was a militant. I am aware that 4 he was running an Islamic observation center or what he called 5 Islamic Observation Center. I'm aware that he were tried in 6 absentia in Egypt and he has a death penalty on, you know, was 7 issued against him like many others, Egyptians, who opposed the 8 Egyptian government. 9 Q. Does that sentence that was imposed upon him in Egypt, was 10 a result of an attempted assassination of Prime Minister Atif 11 Sidqi? 12 A. Yes, that was the allegation, yes. It was the charges 13 against him. 14 Q. And are you aware that he was also implicated in 15 kidnappings in Yemen? 16 A. No, I was not aware of that. 17 Q. Now, you testified that Mr. Al-Sirri runs the Islamic 18 Observation Center? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's a website that he ran out of London, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And incidentally, that's the website on which you arranged 23 for the kill the Jews fatwah to be published, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That's also, the Islamic Observation Center is also the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10384 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 organization that published Rifa'i Taha's book, correct? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Did you consider Mr. Al-Sirri to be a responsible man? 4 A. From my dealing with him, yes. I never met Mr. Al-Sirri. 5 I dealt with him over the telephone. I spoke with him on the 6 phone. I never met him, I never seen him. I cannot say I 7 never seen him, I saw him on TV, so if this is considered 8 seeing him. 9 But, you know, from dealing with him on -- on the 10 phone, you know, I will probably -- my limited dealing with him 11 on certain things, yes, he was responsible. 12 Q. And, in particular, with respect to information that he 13 published on his website, he was responsible? 14 A. Most of it, yes. 15 Q. In other words, he didn't make up, as far as you knew, 16 information that he published and disseminated? 17 A. He was -- he will, you know, if somebody give a piece of 18 information to Al-Sirri he will publish it. He will ask, you 19 know, if this is true or not true and, you know, he will just 20 publish it. 21 I have no idea, you know, I cannot, you know, be 22 sitting here today and telling you that he go and check 23 thorough every piece of information that -- I don't know what 24 his methods of doing that. But I can speak about my dealing 25 with him. If I give him something and I say, I tell him its SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10385 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 true, he will publish it. 2 Q. And so, as far as you knew, he would not make up 3 information and just publish it on his website? 4 A. I don't know that. 5 Q. You knew that he had many, many sources for information, 6 right? 7 A. Yes, I do. 8 Q. And you were one of his sources, right? 9 A. I was. 10 Q. And Rifa'i Taha was one of his sources too, correct? 11 A. I think, yes. 12 Q. They were in touch, you knew from talking to Mr. Al- -- 13 A. Can you please slow down a little bit because I can't, you 14 know, I cannot following you. My brain is racing, my heart is 15 racing. I can't just keep following you if you are going that 16 fast, so, please. 17 Q. You knew that Rifa'i Taha and Yasir Al-Sirri spoke on the 18 telephone? 19 A. Yes, I do. 20 Q. And you knew that based on conversations that you had with 21 both Rifa'i Taha and with Yasir Al-Sirri? 22 A. I knew what? 23 Q. You knew that Taha and Al-Sirri were speaking because of 24 conversations that you had with each of those individuals? 25 A. They were speaking before even I get to know Rifa'i Taha. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10386 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 They were speaking before I get to know Yasir Al-Sirri is -- I 2 can't say, you know, yes, they were speaking because of 3 conversations that I had with them. 4 Q. All I'm saying, all I'm asking you, sir, is that you knew 5 that they were talking to one another? 6 A. Yes, I do. 7 Q. And, in fact, it was Yasir Al-Sirri who put you in touch 8 with Rifa'i Taha? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And over the years, after you got to know Mr. Al-Sirri, he 11 often gave you advice about using the media in connection with 12 the work that you were doing? 13 A. Yes, he did. Sometimes. 14 Q. And Yasir Al-Sirri, as indicated on the chart, you referred 15 to as Abu Ammar, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And "Abu" means "father of"? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. But "Abu" can also be a code name, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, in fact, there is a call that you put into evidence in 22 which you refer to the fact that Abu is our code names. Are 23 you familiar with that call? 24 A. I'm sorry? 25 Q. Are you familiar with the call that you put into evidence, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10387 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Ahmed Sattar Exhibit 3T, in which you stated that an Abu name 2 is a code name? 3 A. I'm not familiar with that. If I can see it, please? 4 Q. Sure. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Ahmed Sattar 6 Exhibit AS-3T, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there was a conversation that you had with 9 Mr. El-Shafey, is that correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And directing your attention to this attribution right 12 here? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You say: Plus Abu... they simply mentioned his code name? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That's you saying that they only use the Abu name for that 17 particular individual and that that was a code name? 18 A. That was a code name for this particular individual? 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Abu Ammar is you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And Ammar is your eldest son, so? 24 A. Yes, so I am Abu Ammar because I have a son named Ammar. 25 Yasir Al-Sirri does not have a son named Ammar, but. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10388 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Right. 2 A. But, in the Arabic culture also there are certain names. 3 If you see Yasir Al-Sirri and if you also look at Yassir 4 Arafat, both of them have the same name. Yasir and Yasir and 5 both of them they're, if you want to say, you know, the people 6 call them as Abu Ammar. Abu Ammar, it goes all the way back 7 1400 years ago during wars, Yasir was a companion of the 8 Prophet and his name was Yasir Abu Ammar. So, from that point 9 there are certain names, when you have that name, people 10 automatically call you such. 11 So, like for an example, a name like Abdel Manem, 12 M-A-N-E-M, if your name is Abdel Manem, automatically you will 13 be called Abu Ismail. 14 So, there are certain names that like you don't have 15 to be a son. 16 So to be called Abu such or Abu such, you know, if you 17 have this name, people will automatically call you that with 18 that name. 19 So, it's not -- it doesn't have to be a code name. 20 Q. But it can be a code name? 21 A. Yes, it could be, yes. 22 Q. Now, you testified that Mr. Al-Sirri introduced you to 23 Rifa'i Taha, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that was sometime in 1998? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10389 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I believe, yes, it was in 1998. Late '98. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 3 Exhibit 800 again, in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 Q. And it was your understanding that Rifa'i Taha was in 6 Afghanistan, right? 7 A. At the time I was not quite sure where when I was 8 introduced to him where he was, exactly. 9 Q. Well -- 10 A. But I came to know later on, yes, that he was in 11 Afghanistan, yes. 12 Q. You certainly suspected it, right? 13 A. Yes, I did. I did suspected it. 14 Q. And, in fact, you read many articles about Rifa'i Taha and 15 many of those articles refer to him as being in Afghanistan? 16 A. Yes. And many articles too, they were referring to him 17 that he's been in Switzerland, he is in Iran. 18 You know, I had -- they were not definite where he was 19 but I did suspect, yes, I can say that I did suspect that he 20 was in Afghanistan. 21 Q. And, in fact, in Government Exhibit 1002X, in evidence, the 22 fact that he was in Afghanistan was discussed, wasn't it? 23 A. Could be. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1002X, in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10390 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Ms. Griffith, if you can please go to page 22. 3 Mr. Sattar, do you see on the screen Government 4 Exhibit 1002X? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And this is a conversation that you connected between 7 Rifa'i Taha and Muntasir Al-Zayat? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And so the way this conversation was set up, just so we are 10 clear was that, as usual, Taha would call you in New York and 11 then you would use your conference calling technology on your 12 telephone and call Egypt, which is where Mr. Al-Zayat was, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And during this call, do you see where on lines -- starting 16 on line 11 -- actually, starting on line 8, Mr. Al-Zayat says 17 that they are worried that the atmosphere in which you live -- 18 when he says they he is referring to the prisoners? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Could have influenced your behavior or the way you think 21 eh, eh, the people around you, eh, the people of Taliban, of 22 Bin Laden of Al-Zawahiri. And so, I mean, they are worried 23 that the atmosphere in which you live has a negative influence 24 on the way you make decisions or the way you think. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10391 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. That was pretty clear to you that he was in Afghanistan? 2 A. Yes. That is what I said. I mean I don't know the date of 3 this conversation but, you know, I said I came to know when I 4 first -- when I first, you know, spoke to Rifa'i Taha I did not 5 know where he was but I came to know later on that he was in 6 Afghanistan through the many calls that I connected him or, you 7 know, I got. 8 Q. And in fact you knew that the Taliban was the ruling party 9 in Afghanistan, right? 10 A. Yes. Who doesn't? I mean. 11 Q. And that Bin Laden was in Afghanistan and Al-Zawahiri was 12 in Afghanistan, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. The people of Bin Laden, that would be Al-Qaeda? 15 A. No, the people of -- there is nothing about the people of 16 Bin Laden. It says the people of Taliban. I don't know the 17 people of Bin Laden. 18 Q. It says the people of Taliban, of Bin laden of Al-Zawahiri, 19 right? 20 A. No, he is talking about the Taliban right here. I don't 21 know anything about Al-Qaeda. I don't know if the people of 22 Bin Laden are Al-Qaeda so I cannot say. 23 Q. You know that Bin laden is the head of the terrorist 24 organization Al-Qaeda, right? 25 A. Now I do. I mean after September 11th, of course I do. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10392 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you knew at the time this call happened, too, didn't 2 you? 3 A. I mean? I'm sorry? 4 Q. You knew at the time that this call happened, didn't you? 5 A. When the time of that call happened, yes, there were some 6 reports and -- about him, as a leader of Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda, I 7 mean, I got to know this like late on just through my readings 8 and through some information that I get, not first-hand 9 information. It is just, you know, reading, mainly. 10 So, you know, to sit here and say that I know that, 11 you know, he is referring here to the people of Taliban, of Bin 12 Laden, it's like that he is referring to Al-Qaeda, I really 13 don't know. 14 Q. But it was your understanding that Bin laden was the head 15 of Al-Qaeda at this time? 16 A. At this time I know that Bin Laden has an organization 17 named Al-Qaeda, yes. 18 Q. And you had read the indictment at this time naming Bin 19 laden as a defendant in connection with the embassy bombings 20 case, right? 21 A. Yes. This is what I meant by reading through readings. I 22 read the indictment, I read the newspapers. I know that he 23 was, he had an organization called Al-Qaeda and this is all I 24 know about it. 25 Q. And incidentally, Al-Qaeda means the base? That's the way SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10393 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you translate it? 2 A. It is, means -- yes, the base. Military base. 3 Q. Military base. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the first page of this 6 transcript? 7 Just so we are clear, Mr. Sattar, this call occurred 8 on December 12th of 1998? 9 A. Okay. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display again for the 11 jury Government Exhibit 800? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. As you can see from the chart, Mr. Sattar, you knew Rifa'i 14 Taha as Abu Yasir, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. That was one of his aliases? 17 A. I didn't know him with any other name except, you know, a 18 description of him, you know, that his name was Abu Yasir. 19 This is the only name that I know. 20 Q. And you also knew him as Abu Ahmed? 21 A. Abu Ahmed. 22 Q. Abu Ahmed. 23 A. That was just, you know, a name given to him, you know, in 24 that period of time that when he was connecting -- when I was 25 connecting him to Atia. He says we are going to refer to him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10394 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 as Abu Ahmed but that was not a name that, you know, I used or 2 anybody else used except for that occasion. 3 Q. Right. And on that occasion that was really a true code 4 name, right? 5 A. Yes, it was. It was a code name, yes. 6 Q. And, in fact, Abu Yasir was a code name too, right? 7 A. I really don't know. 8 Q. Well, you knew that Rifa'i Taha didn't have any children 9 named Yasir, right? 10 A. I, I did not know that. I thought he had a child named 11 Yasir. I was under the impression that's why they called him 12 Abu Yasir. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 14 Government Exhibit 1040X, in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone call over your telephone 17 number on November 14th of 1999? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Between a call that you connected Rifa'i Taha to Sa'ad 20 Hasaballah? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And incidentally, Sa'ad Hasaballah is an attorney in Egypt, 23 right? 24 A. Yes, he is. 25 Q. And during this call, Ms. Griffith, if you could go to. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10395 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 2? 2 Mr. Hasaballah and Rifa'i Taha are talking about their 3 children and Rifa'i Taha says, he names his children and he 4 says they are Ammar, Safya, and Rofayda, Taha and Ahmed, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. No Yasir, right? 7 A. I don't see any Yasir but, you know, it doesn't mean, I 8 mean -- I really don't know. I was, as I told you, I was 9 always under the impression that he has a child named Yasir. 10 Q. But, he talked about his five children and didn't name one 11 Yasir? 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, you cannot just isolate something here and 13 say that you know, a call that happened in 1999, five years 14 ago, six years ago and say you know but you knew. I'm sitting 15 here, I'm telling you what I know. There was, there is a 16 conversation here as what I said. I listened to some of it. 17 Some of it I did not listen to and I really don't know that if 18 he has a child named Yasir or not. I was under the impression 19 that he had a child named Yasir. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 21 Exhibit 800 again? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, let's talk about Mustafa Hamza. 24 You testified on direct that you did not know that 25 Yunis was Mustafa Hamza, correct? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10396 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I did not know for sure that he was Mustafa Hamza, no. 2 Q. But you certainly suspected it, right? 3 A. I certainly -- I did not know exactly who he was. I did 4 not know that Yunis was Mustafa Hamza. I knew that he was 5 somebody, you know, in the Islamic Group but who he exactly, 6 who is the person exactly is I really did not -- didn't know. 7 Q. Well, in your direct testimony you said that he could have 8 been a Joe Schmoe as far as you knew, right? 9 A. Yes. Yes. 10 Q. But you knew, didn't you, that he was emir of the Islamic 11 Group? 12 A. I knew that he could have been a Joe Schmoe from the 13 Islamic Group, or I did not say Joe Schmoe from the street or 14 any Joe Schmoe. He is Joe Schmoe from the Islamic Group, 15 that's what I meant. 16 Q. And you knew that he was one of the high-ranking leaders of 17 the group, right? 18 A. Yes. Probably, yes. 19 Q. And you knew that another name that he went by was Abu 20 Hazim? 21 A. I know some, yes. 22 Q. In fact, in the letter that you sent to Sheikh Abdel Rahman 23 in May of 2000 you said to him that you have been in 24 semi-constant contact with, among others, Abu Yasir and Abu 25 Hazim, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10397 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And when you said Abu Hazim, you were referring to Yunis? 3 A. Yes. And I was -- that's why I said in semi contact. I 4 did not believe that I was in direct contact. If you remember, 5 you know, some of the calls that were played, I -- when I 6 sent -- when first I sent to Rifa'i -- to Yunis asking to get 7 in touch with Abu Hazim I did not know that Yunis was Abu 8 Hazim. I send to him asking him if he can get in touch with 9 Abu Hazim during the Atia thing. 10 And he came, in his conversation he is talking about 11 Abu Hazim in the third-person. So, I was, you know, I did not 12 know that Abu Hazim was Yunis. And until this minute I'm just 13 sitting here, I really, you know, this whole thing is just 14 confusing to me. You know, I mean, you come and, you know, to 15 say that Abu Hazim, that Yunis is Mustafa Hamza, I will say 16 yes, okay. Because whether is he Mustafa Hamza or not doesn't 17 make a difference here now sitting here. But back then I 18 didn't know who Mustafa Hamza was or if Yunis was Mustafa Hamza 19 or not. 20 Q. And you certainly suspected it as you were having all these 21 calls with a high-ranking member of the Islamic Group called 22 Yunis, right? 23 A. Yes, I suspected that he was a high-ranking member. 24 Q. You suspected that it was Mustafa Hamza, didn't you? 25 A. Does I suspect he was Mustafa Hamza, I could just, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10398 4CD5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 know, thought maybe he was Mustafa Hamza but I was not sure 2 that Rifa'i Taha -- I mean, Yunis is Mustafa Hamza. I'm not 3 sure Yunis was Mustafa Hamza is what I told you and I still 4 believe until today. 5 Q. You never asked him, right? 6 A. I don't think I ever asked him if he was Mustafa Hamza. 7 Q. And you never asked Rifa'i Taha, right? You never asked 8 Rifa'i Taha if Yunis was Mustafa Hamza? 9 A. I don't think I did. 10 Q. You didn't really care one way or another, right? 11 A. No, I didn't care one way or another who he is. 12 Q. Now, incidentally it is Rifa'i Taha who put you in touch 13 with Mustafa Hamza, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10399 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You suspected that Yunis also was in Afghanistan, right? 2 A. I did, yes. 3 Q. Now, going down the list of the people in Afghanistan with 4 whom you spoke, Mohammad Abdel Rahman is another person whom 5 you spoke with right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That is Sheikh Abdel Rahman's son? 8 A. Yes, he is. 9 Q. And he goes by the name of Hasaballah? 10 A. Yes, he is known by the name of Hasabalah. 11 Q. And sometimes you refer to him as Sa'ad? 12 A. Sa'ad, yes. 13 Q. Now, it is not on the list here on the exhibit, Government 14 Exhibit 800, but Sheikh Abdel Rahman had another son Ahmed? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. He was with Mohammad in Afghanistan? 17 A. I am not sure if he was with him, but I know he was in 18 Afghanistan. 19 Q. His other name was Sayfalah? 20 A. Yes, Sayfalah. Sayfalah means line of Allah, and Sayfalah 21 means the sword of Allah, and he picked these names during the 22 fight in Afghanistan. 23 Q. Just for the record, Sayfalah is spelled S A Y F A L A H? 24 A. It could be S A Y F or S A F Y. 25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, do you know how his son spells SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10400 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 his last name? 2 A. I know he left Egypt, went there sometimes during the fight 3 against the Soviet Union. I don't know how or the exact 4 circumstances, I don't. 5 Q. Now, directing your attention back to Government Exhibit 6 800 and looking at Egypt and the individuals with whom you 7 spoke who were located in Egypt, the top of the list is Salah 8 Hashim? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he was also known as the engineer, right? 11 A. Yes, because he is a real engineer. 12 Q. And sometimes the engineer in Suhaj? 13 A. So imagine that means, you know, the engineer from Suhaj. 14 Suhaj is a city in South Egypt about 300, 400 miles 15 from Cairo. 16 Q. You also knew Salah Hashim as Abu Nadhara? 17 A. Yes, they referred to him as am mean, his people referred 18 to him as Abu Zarzur, and from what I understand, he wears 19 glasses, so sometimes when somebody wears glasses, Abu Nadhara 20 means the one who wears the glasses. 21 Q. Incidentally, he was one of the founders of the Islamic 22 Group, right? 23 A. Yes, from what I read and what I seen, what I have seen, 24 yes. 25 Q. You knew that at the time you were speaking to him over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10401 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 telephone, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Montasser al-Zayyat was also in Egypt, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. He was sometimes referred to during these calls as Zarzur? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That means a little bird? 8 A. Means a little bird, yeah. Al-Zayyat, I have seen his 9 picture. He is big. 10 Q. You have met him, haven't you? 11 A. I am not quite sure if I met him. I know he was here in 12 1990, but I am not quite sure if I met him or I did not meet 13 him. I am not quite sure, but I seen him here in 1990. But 14 meeting him personally, I am not sure. 15 Q. You saw him here? 16 A. Yes, I saw him in 1990 in the mosque here. 17 Q. And you also saw him and the Taha trial? 18 A. Yes. I am not quite sure if I met him, I went there and 19 introduced myself to him but I saw him, yes. 20 Q. When you said Atia, you are referring to Raziq, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Now, the third name on the list is Alaa Abdul Raziq Atia? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he was also referred to during these telephone calls as 25 Mr. Hamab? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10402 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, and also as Hamab Badarway? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Those were aliases, right? 4 A. Yes, I believe so. 5 Q. And the people who you dealt with in connection with Atia 6 were Hani? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And he referred to himself as Fawzi? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. The first time or first few times you spoke with him, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. He didn't use his real name? 14 A. I still don't know if Hani is his real name or Fawzi is the 15 real name. I really don't know. 16 Q. And also Hamab Ahmad Sharif? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Dr. Ismail? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. These are people with whom you dealt when you were taking 21 calls with Atia and Taha, right? 22 A. This is the people that had the telephone that I used to 23 call. In Egypt it is not like in the United States, you know, 24 not everybody has a phone so, you know, it could be one in a 25 hundred. So these people had the phones where I was calling. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10403 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You dealt with other people as well that are not on the 2 list in connection with Atia. There was a person named 3 Montasser? 4 A. Yes, I spoke to him. 5 Q. Just a few times, right? 6 A. Once or two times. 7 Q. He is the one, in fact, who told you he had been shot? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. In fact, he told you that Atia was in the hospital, right? 10 A. He says yes, he could be, he could be in the hospital, yes. 11 Q. You understood what he was saying was that he was in jail, 12 right? 13 A. I understood that he was either arrested or he could be in 14 the hospital or he was something bigger happened so he could be 15 arrested or killed. 16 Q. You understood that the word "hospital" meant "jail"? 17 A. Yes, this is what -- you know, if you listen to the calls, 18 all right, those people here, Atia and his people were making 19 their own words and tell me about it. 20 We see things, they were making their own words, 21 trying to protect themselves in Egypt, I believe, or I was 22 under the impression they were trying to do that. He made 23 those words, and I understood, yes, the hospital means jail. 24 Q. There was also another individual name Hisham you spoke 25 with? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10404 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, that is what Atia was staying at. 2 Q. Now, you made hundreds of telephone calls during the 1998 3 to 2002 period overseas, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Those calls were extremely expensive, weren't they? 6 A. Yes, they were expensive, but not every -- most of those 7 calls that I did, like when Taha calls me, I am not billed for 8 that or Yunis called, I am not billed for that. My bills were 9 just when I call Egypt. 10 Q. Very frequently when Taha or Yunis would call you, you 11 would conference in someone in Egypt? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you would get charged for the part of the call that was 14 the conference call, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. It is fair to say that you spent thousands of dollars a 17 year on telephone calls? 18 A. I did. 19 Q. You paid those bills, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 (Pause) 22 A. Since we're talking about the bills, I did struggle with 23 the bills, yes. 24 Q. I am sorry? 25 A. I did struggle paying the bills. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10405 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. But you spent thousands of dollars a year? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. To facilitate these calls? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that Sheikh Abdel 6 Rahman came to the United States in 1990? 7 A. Yes, I didn't believe. 8 Q. And you knew at the time he came here, he was regarded as 9 the emir of the Islamic Group, right? 10 A. No, I did not know was recorded as the emir of the Islam 11 group. I know per se -- I did not know the Islamic Group. I 12 knew he was regarded as as far as a high, respected ranking of 13 that Islamic movement in Egypt. 14 Which group exactly I did not know at the time. 15 Q. At the time you in 1990? 16 A. In 1990 when he was here, no, I did not know that he was 17 associated with the Islamic Group. As what I told you, I know 18 there were Islamic groups, in a plural term. 19 Q. Right, but you came to know that he was, in fact, the emir 20 of the Islamic Group? 21 A. Yes, I did. 22 Q. Would you agree with me that the Islamic Group is a 23 terrorist organization? 24 A. I do agree with you it is a terrorist organization, yes. 25 Q. That is not my question. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10406 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 My question is, in your opinion, is the Islamic Group 2 a terrorist organization? 3 A. In my opinion, the Islamic Group committed violence. In my 4 opinion, the Islamic Group did very bad acts in Egypt. In my 5 opinion, the Islamic Group committed atrocities, yes, in Egypt 6 but I am an Egyptian. I came from Egypt. I have seen bad 7 things happening in Egypt not just by the Islamic Group but by 8 the Egyptian government also. 9 MR. MORVILLO: Objection and move to strike. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. It is stricken. The last 11 sentence is stricken. 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, I put things in context. I cannot -- the 13 things that are happening to people in Egypt happen to me or to 14 my loved ones -- 15 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, please listen to the question 16 and answer the question as asked. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: The last response stricken. 19 BY MR. MORVILLO: 20 Q. The Islamic Group carried out terrorist attacks, yes or no? 21 A. Yes, they did. 22 Q. Now, you knew that the Islamic Group was formed in the 23 early '70s in Egypt, right? 24 A. Yeah, from what I heard, yes. 25 Q. Their goal was to overthrow the Egyptian government, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10407 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. Their goal was to establish an Islamic government. 2 Q. The means that they chose to accomplish that goal were 3 through violence, right? 4 A. No, the means was not just through violence. 5 This is the difference between the Islamic Group and 6 other groups, you know? Other groups, you know, they say that 7 they want to overthrow the government or change from the top to 8 the bottom. 9 If you read the Islamic Group charter or you go 10 through their visions, you know, what they are saying in their 11 literature and their videotapes, they say they have to work 12 from the bottom up, and if this is, if this did not work, yes, 13 they could use other means, but I cannot say that this is what 14 they are aiming at, overthrowing the government. It is 15 changing the society and the government so that in their way 16 they will do it that way, yes. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, respectfully I request a 18 limiting instruction with respect to questions and answers 19 concerning historical events in Egypt, if they are offered for 20 the purposes of the earlier limiting instruction. 21 THE COURT: All right. Historical events are offered 22 for this witness' -- 23 MR. MORVILLO: Yes. 24 THE COURT: -- knowledge, intent and state of mind and 25 not for the truth of those matters, all right. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10408 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 BY MR. MORVILLO: 2 Q. The installation of an Islamic government in Egypt -- 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. -- was a government that would be conducted under the law 5 of sharia? 6 A. It will be under the Islamic Group, sharia, yes. 7 Q. What does sharia mean? 8 A. Sharia means the law. Basically, you know, when I say 9 sharia means the law, Islamic law, and it is based on the -- 10 sharia is based on the Koran, the sunnah, the traditional 11 prophet Mohammed, peace and blessing be upon him, Islamic 12 jurisprudence, you know, from the old -- try to visualize it, 13 you know, to help you and what we call comparison, to compare 14 between one situation and another. 15 Q. Under a sharia form of government or under an Islamic 16 government, the leader of that would be a religious figure, 17 right? 18 A. No. 19 Q. No? 20 A. No, he is not. It is not necessary to be a religious 21 figure, at least in my understanding. 22 The head of the government could be anybody who is 23 qualified to do, and definite not Sheikh Abdel Rahman because 24 he is not qualified. As a blind man, he is not -- in Islamic 25 law, he is not qualified to rule. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10409 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Anybody who could be an engineer, could be a doctor, 2 could be a lawyer, anybody who is qualified to rule could rule. 3 That is why when I say I support an Islamic state, to see an 4 Islamic state in Egypt, not theocracy, to have a religious 5 figure on top of the government, this is, you know, I consider 6 it theocracy, and this is not, in my opinion, an Islamic state. 7 Q. What the Islamic group was trying to accomplish was to 8 install a government headed by a religious figure, right? 9 A. I didn't know that. 10 Q. Whether the head of the government would be a religious 11 figure, there would be a very prominent role for religion in a 12 government that is an Islamic government, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You would need to have someone to assure that the policies 15 of that government were carried out in accordance with the law 16 of Islam, right? 17 A. Yes. You know, if I can just make it, you know, try to 18 make it clear here, at least in my understanding of an Islamic 19 government, yes, you have to have somebody who understands 20 Islamic law, will be a religious scholar, will be from a 21 committee of judges or whatever. 22 It is like you have the headlines and you have the 23 interpretation that will be interpreted by some Islamic 24 scholars, but it doesn't mean that they rule themselves. 25 Q. So the Islamic Group itself needed a leader or an emir who SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10410 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 was a religious group? 2 A. Who was a religious figure, yes. 3 Yes, they did need somebody, according to my reading, 4 in their charter and according to the books that they were 5 published about them and in their -- you know, the leaders of 6 the Islamic Group themselves say that on videotapes they were 7 telling that story of how they formed the group and how they 8 choose Omar Abdel Rahman to be their leader because of his 9 religious knowledge. 10 Q. And the group needed a leader that was a religious figure 11 to make sure that its conduct and policies were carried out in 12 accordance with the law of Islam, right? 13 A. This is what they claim, yes. 14 Q. And that means that before a terrorist operation is 15 conducted, they need to get a fatwah from the religious leader 16 to make sure that what they're doing is religiously approved, 17 right? 18 A. I don't know that. I don't -- I mean, I can't say, you 19 know, what -- they don't talk in that specific, you know, I 20 mean about what they're going to do, who is going to issue a 21 religious fatwah or whatever. They don't say that. 22 What I know is they needed somebody to have -- they 23 were -- the thing I read was in historic context or when they 24 were talking, they were talking about the past, things they did 25 in the past, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10411 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. But as you testified on direct examination, under the law 2 of Islam, you will be punished for things you do bad and you'll 3 be rewarded for things you do good, right? 4 A. This is my religious beliefs, yes. 5 Q. And that the religious beliefs of the Islamic Group as 6 well; in other words, this is Islam? 7 A. I can speak, Mr. Morvillo, I can speak about my own 8 religious beliefs. I can speak about the things that I believe 9 in. I cannot speak about what the Islamic Group believes in. 10 I can tell you what I read about. 11 Q. All I am asking for, Mr. Sattar, is your understanding. 12 A. My understanding that you will be punished if you do 13 something bad? Of course. If you do something good, you will 14 be rewarded in the hereafter, yes, I do believe that and I 15 believe this is my understanding that Islam tells me that, yes. 16 Q. And killing people is bad, right? 17 A. Of course it is bad. Killing innocent people is bad. 18 Killing, my religion teaches me that killing one innocent soul 19 is killing, it is like the whole humanity. 20 Q. And 58 people in Luxor who were killed were innocent souls, 21 right? 22 A. They were innocent souls, yes. 23 Q. And they were killed by members of the Islamic Group, 24 right? 25 A. They were killed by members of the Islamic Group, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10412 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And so the people who carried out that attack believed that 2 what they were doing was okay, right, in your opinion? 3 A. In my opinion? I don't know what was in their mind, but 4 you know what? There is nothing in my opinion that would 5 justify the killing of 58 innocent people. It doesn't matter 6 who did it. If Sheikh Abdel Rahman himself did it, I would 7 stand up and tell him no, what you did, that is not right. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, what is a martyr? 9 A. A martyr? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. A martyr, in Islam, or in my opinion? 12 Q. In your opinion? 13 A. In my opinion, a martyr is somebody who died for a cause, 14 you know? At least this is how we define it here. 15 Q. In Rafa'l Taha's book, he stated that the six individuals 16 who carried out the Luxor attack were martyrs, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you viewed Atia as a martyr, right? 19 A. I viewed Atia was a martyr, yes. He was killed in cold 20 blood -- 21 Q. And you -- 22 THE COURT: Stop, stop. Let the witness finish the 23 answer. 24 A. -- he was killed in cold blood. Atia was killed, from what 25 I know, while he was sleeping. That is why anybody -- Atia, if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10413 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Atia had his day in court and was convicted to death, I would 2 not consider him a martyr. If you shoot somebody while he is 3 sleeping, in my opinion, he is a martyr. 4 Q. You testified, did you not, it is your understanding that 5 Atia was involved in the Luxor attack, right? 6 A. Yes, I said I understand now, from what I saw during this 7 trial, that conversation that Mr. Fallick played, yes. 8 Q. At the time you were having these conversations, you knew 9 Atia was a military leader of the Islamic Group in Egypt, 10 right? 11 A. Yes, yes, I know he was the Islamic Group military leader, 12 yes, I knew that. I also knew -- please. 13 Q. And the military leader of the Islamic group? 14 A. Yes, is the part of the group that carries out terrorist 15 operations, right? 16 Q. Yes. You considered him to be a martyr, right? 17 A. I consider anybody who is killed in cold blood a martyr, 18 not just Atia. 19 Q. Whether they're a terrorist or not? 20 A. Whether they're a terrorist or not. A terrorist has to 21 have his day in court, too, Mr. Morvillo. Atia did not. I 22 wanted Atia to have his day in court. The Egyptian government 23 did not give him his chance. The Egyptian government acted 24 like the judge, the jury and the executer. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I object to that and move SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10414 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 to strike. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead. 3 BY MR. MORVILLO: 4 Q. Now, getting back to the Islamic Group -- 5 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may we take a break? 6 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll 7 break for 10 minutes. Please remember my continuing 8 instructions, please don't talk about the case at all, always 9 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 10 evidence, I have instructed you on the law and you have gone to 11 the jury room at the beginning of the deliberations. 12 (Jury excused) 13 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar, you may step down. Let me 14 talk to the lawyers. 15 (Continued on next page) 16 (Sealed sidebar can be found under separate cover) 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10416 4CDJSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: All right, please be seated, all.@ 3 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Ladies and gentlemen, you 4 may be seated. 5 (Pause) 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Please be seated. Mr. Sattar is on the 8 stand. Mr. Fletcher. 9 THE CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you're reminded you're still 10 under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may resume. 13 BY MR. MORVILLO: 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, let's talk about fatwah, okay? 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. Part of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's responsibilities as the emir 17 of the Islamic Group, as you understood it, was to issue 18 fatwas, right? 19 A. Part of his responsibilities is to, according to what the 20 Islamic Group people were saying, is to -- if there is, if 21 there is a conflict between the two factions, is to solve these 22 problems, and if you have any different opinions, to go back to 23 him. This is what I read and I understood from what I read 24 about the Islamic Group and the Shiites rule in Islam. 25 Q. And he would resolve disputes, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10417 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. He would resolve disputes, yes. 2 Q. What is a fatwah? 3 A. A fatwah is a nonbinding religious opinion. 4 Q. It's a religious opinion? 5 A. It is a nonbinding religious opinion, yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the 7 display to the jury Government Exhibit 2077 in evidence? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. MORVILLO: You would go to the 4th page. At the 10 bottom there is a question and answer. Do you have that. 11 BY MR. MORVILLO: 12 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is an exhibit that was seized from your 13 apartment. The question is -- it is a question-and-answer 14 session with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. The question is, is it right to commit suicide for the 17 purpose of jihad, like strapping explosives to one's body and 18 detonating them among the enemies and dying with them, and 19 Sheikh Abdel Rahman answered this question: "If you wish to do 20 something like that, come to me and ask me and get a fatwah 21 approval by agreeing to it or not." 22 That is what he said, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 25 Government Exhibit 2044? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10418 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 BY MR. MORVILLO: 3 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recognize this? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This is an interview with Mustafa Hamza? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. That was found in your apartment, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This is something that you clipped? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 12 Government Exhibit 2044 T? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to the 6th page of that 15 translation. Highlight the question above the -- 16 Q. This was an interview with Mustafa Hamza, in which he was 17 asked how can you explain killing tourists, raiding jewelry 18 stores in such operations, and Mustafa Hamza answered in every 19 moment and action, the group starts off by consulting with the 20 righteous Olama. What is Olama? 21 A. Olama, as we pronounce in Arabic, Olama means scholars in a 22 plural term. 23 Q. We did not initiate any of this without fatwas from our 24 trusted Olama. When fatwas are provided, you study the 25 advantages and drawbacks and then the capability to carry out SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10419 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Olama. 2 It is your you understanding, Mr. Sattar, that what 3 plus Mustafa Hamza was saying here is that when they are going 4 to carry out a terrorist operation, they get a fatwah first, 5 right? 6 A. This is what he is saying here. 7 Q. It is your understanding that fatwas are important because 8 they are authoritative statements by religious leaders 9 declaring what is and is not Islamically permissible? 10 A. I don't know if it is I could say authoritative. I could 11 say fatwah, it is, it is, yes, it is important in Islamic 12 jurisprudence. There is hundreds if not thousands of fatwas, 13 you know, coming every year. Every scholar could come out and 14 just, you know, express his opinion and his opinion will be 15 considered a fatwah, but, you know, authoritative, I'm not 16 quite sure what you mean by that. 17 Q. Well, if someone in the Islamic Group is going to carry out 18 a terrorist attack, they want to make sure they had permission 19 or a fatwah from a religious leader so that they would not be 20 punished for it in the afterlife, right? -- 21 A. If you say so. 22 Q. That is your understanding? 23 A. I really don't know. 24 Q. On direct examination, you testified about the word jihad? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10420 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you said jihad could be by the word, jihad could be by 2 hand, jihad could be by intention, you see something and you 3 dislike it, you hate it and you just hate it in your heart, 4 that is a jihad. Talking and expressing your opinion against 5 oppressor, that is a jihad. Fighting in the battlefield is 6 jihad also? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Do you recall giving that testimony? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And so just so I'm clear on what you mean, is that the act 11 of opposing something you hate is jihad? 12 A. The act of? 13 Q. Opposing? 14 A. Something that you hate, yes. 15 Q. Is jihad? 16 A. The act of opposing just, you know, if you hear something 17 inside you in your heart, you know, just hate it and you stay 18 away, you struggle with yourself to stay away from it, it is a 19 jihad, yes, in my opinion, it is a jihad. My understanding of 20 Islam, it is a jihad. 21 Q. You knew that in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, jihad meant 22 fighting, right? 23 A. I know something, in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, many 24 things that you know he will say it and I will not agree with 25 it, and I give you some examples before or I gave Mr. Fallick SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10421 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 some examples of the things I disagree with him. 2 In his opinion, he could come and say jihad is only by 3 hand, and I will tell him that you are wrong, you are mistaken 4 because this is not what other scholars or me personally 5 understand it. 6 Q. Right, but he's your father, your imam, mentor, your 7 brother, your friend and your associate, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you understood, you understood that he said that jihad 10 is by the sword, right? 11 A. I understood that he interpreted it this way, okay? 12 And he interpreted it also, in many other -- he cannot 13 just take one lecture or sermon and say this is what he meant 14 it. 15 I see in him speaking about this. He gave some 16 interviews, and he's interpreting jihad the way I just told 17 you. I don't know what you are trying to refer to, okay, but, 18 you know, from what I understand, I see the Sheikh speaking 19 about jihad, and he said exactly what I told you, and I see him 20 speaking about jihad in other lectures, and he says it is by 21 the sword. 22 It doesn't mean it is only by the sword, and if he is 23 saying that, it doesn't matter if he is my father, my imam, my 24 mentor, my associate or my friend. When it comes to religion, 25 there is no father, there is no associate, there is no friend, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10422 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 he is wrong. 2 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 3 Government Exhibit 204 T in evidence? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 BY MR. MORVILLO: 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is an exhibit that was introduced in 7 Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recognize it? 10 A. I see it, yes. 11 Q. You have seen it before, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to Page 22 and highlight 14 the first attribution to Rahman. 15 BY MR. MORVILLO: 16 Q. In this speech he said, how ingenious (audience laugh). I 17 have never imagined such minds could exist in Denmark. Then he 18 said jihad is jihad, my brother, there is no such thing as 19 commerce, industry and science in jihad. This is calling 20 things with other than by its own names. If God, glory be to 21 him, says do jihad, it means do jihad with the sword, with the 22 cannon, with the grenades and with the missile; this is jihad. 23 Jihad against God's end means for God's cause and his word. We 24 can't say that commerce, industry and science are jihad, not at 25 all. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10423 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 He said that, right? 2 A. Yes, because -- I am sitting here, I will not say that 3 commerce or industry or science is jihad. Jihad is what I told 4 you is by -- in my understanding, is by the sword -- by the 5 hand, by the speaking out and by your intention, what you 6 are -- what you hate, what you are struggling inside yourself 7 against, this is jihad, too. 8 Q. You knew that Abdel Rahman knew was that jihad meant 9 fighting, right? 10 A. It is not only Sheikh Abdel Rahman's view, this is an 11 Islamic concept. Jihad would mean fighting. If you go to the 12 Quran and if you read the Quran, and you will see jihad in the 13 Quran, the Quran refers to jihad as fighting also. 14 So it is not just his concept. This is a huge Islamic 15 jurisprudence thing. It is not -- you cannot just describe it 16 in word one word. 17 Q. I am asking you about your understanding of Sheikh Abdel 18 Rahman's opinion, not about your opinion of jihad, but your 19 understanding of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion? 20 A. My understanding of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion right 21 here in this sermon or in general? 22 Q. In this sermon? 23 A. In this sermon, he is talking about jihad by the sword, 24 yes. 25 Q. And he says jihad means with the sword, with the cannon, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10424 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 with the grenades an with the missile, right? 2 A. Yes, yes, he is saying that. 3 Q. And so in this speech, what he is saying is that jihad 4 means fighting, violence against the enemies of Islam, right? 5 A. He is saying that jihad means fighting. 6 Q. Like a holy war? 7 A. Like a holy war. This is one of the things that I really 8 don't like at all when they say jihad is a holy war. There is 9 no such thing -- 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, I am not talking about your opinion. I am 11 asking you about Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion? 12 A. Mr. Morvillo, you are talking about my religion, right, 13 concepts and my religion right now and I have to clarify. 14 Q. No, you don't. I am asking you questions about your 15 understanding of what Sheikh Abdel Rahman said. 16 A. My understanding, it is very clear here, the Sheikh is 17 saying jihad, it is with the sword right here, but he also in 18 other sermons, he is talking about jihad by the sword, he is 19 talking about jihad by the intention. I heard him saying that, 20 but in this conversation, in this sermon right here he is 21 talking about, about jihad by the sword. 22 Q. You're familiar with Sheikh Rahman's opinion that jihad was 23 necessary to do, whether it was collectively or individually, 24 right, because in his opinion, you couldn't wait for the 25 Islamic army to rise up, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10425 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I object to the form of the question. 2 THE COURT: Rephrase it. 3 BY MR. MORVILLO: 4 Q. Are you familiar with Sheikh Abdel Rahman's opinion, that 5 jihad should be done collectively and individually? 6 MR. TIGAR: Objection. 7 THE COURT: Rephrase in terms of his understanding. 8 BY MR. MORVILLO: 9 Q. Was it your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman had an 10 opinion that jihad should be done collectively or individually? 11 A. My understanding is that he said that could be collectively 12 or individually, yes. 13 Q. One of the reasons why you took that position as far as you 14 understood was because you couldn't wait for an Islamic army to 15 rise up and defend against the oppressors, right? 16 A. If he is talking about jihad by the sword or jihad, yes, 17 but if he is talking -- I mean, my understanding is jihad could 18 be collectively or it doesn't mean to happen in the 19 battlefield. Jihad, as what I told you, my understanding is 20 could it be an internal thing with one person, this is how I 21 understand jihad. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 23 Government Exhibit 2041 in evidence? 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MR. MORVILLO: SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10426 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is another document that was seized from 2 your apartment, and it is a speech by Abdel Rahman, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Would you go to Page 34, at the top of 5 the page -- actually, that doesn't correspond with my 6 transcript. It says -- can you put it on the Elmo. Thank you. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. In this speech, Abdel Rahman says jihad acts undertaken be 9 individuals are permissible acts, they are indeed obligatory 10 duties. Some individuals perform an act of jihad and then they 11 say that this was a word from the prophet. 12 Do you see that? 13 A. Yes, I see it. 14 Q. Going to the bottom of the page, he says therefore, 15 individual acts of jihad performed by individuals -- 16 THE COURT: I am sorry. Individual acts? 17 Q. -- acts of jihad performed by individuals and whether 18 performed by individuals or by groups are mandated by Islam and 19 its sharia. Fighting is not the same as it was in the past. 20 It is not the engagement of two separate armies bent on 21 destroying each other, not at all, because the the the the ... 22 if we were to say -- the, the, the, if we were to wait for the 23 emergence of a Muslim army, we would be sealing the fate of 24 jihad, there would be no jihad. 25 That is what he said, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10427 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, how would you define self-defense? 3 A. How do I define self-defense? If somebody is attacking me 4 or attacking my country or attacking my family or attacking the 5 people that I love. 6 Q. What about attacking your religion? 7 A. And attacking my religion? In what way? 8 Q. An invasion? 9 A. What? 10 Q. Invasion of Muslim land? 11 A. This is attacking a country. 12 Q. And responding against that would be self-defense, right? 13 A. Absolutely, it is in my religion, self-defense, in every 14 law that I know of it is considered self-defense. It is 15 legitimate duty upon people to defend themselves. 16 Q. What would you consider an invasion? 17 A. What do I consider an invasion? 18 Invasion is an invasion, a foreign army going to a 19 foreign country that did not do anything and just invade them 20 or just because you want to take the wealth, you want to 21 destroy them, you know? 22 Q. Do you consider the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia 23 to be an invasion? 24 A. Did I consider their presence? I have an observation on 25 this. I did not like to see foreign troops in Saudi Arabia, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10428 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 but I did not consider this to be an invasion. They were 2 invited by the Saudi king. 3 Q. Abdel Rahman considered it an invasion, right? 4 A. I am sorry? 5 Q. It was your understanding that an Abdel Rahman considered 6 that to be an invasion? 7 A. Yes, he did. 8 Q. You don't abdicate turning the other cheek, right? 9 A. No, I don't abdicate turning the other cheek. It is not 10 according to my religion. I don't turn the other cheek. 11 Q. Is it your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman believed 12 that because Egypt was not ruled in accordance with sharia, it 13 was the obligation of Muslims to wage jihad against the 14 government? 15 A. It is not only Sheikh Abdel Rahman, it is -- 16 Q. It this Islamic Group, too, right? 17 A. I could say 99.9 percent of Muslim scholars say that if a 18 land, a Muslim land where the Muslims are the majority are not 19 ruled by Islamic law or Islamic sharia, they should be -- the 20 people should try to change that and establish an Islamic 21 state, or Islamic law should be the law of the land. 22 Q. That was the goal of the Islamic Group, right? 23 A. This was the goal of the Islamic Group, yes. 24 Q. Abdel Rahman also believed, as you understood it, that 25 jihad against Israel was permissible because they occupy Muslim SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10429 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 lands? 2 A. Yes, and most of the Arab world and Islamic world, they 3 still do not have relations with Israel. They consider 4 Palestine to be an occupied land and they consider it to be a 5 legitimate -- 6 Q. And you share that belief, right? 7 A. I share that belief. I do share that belief, but the 8 method is very complicated now. I mean 50 years of conflict 9 between the Arabs Abdel Sattar and the Israelis, there is three 10 generations of Israelis that were born and raised in there, 11 that they have no other place to go. 12 This is their land now. I cannot just sit here and 13 say and call them occupiers. I can try to work it out. I can 14 try to do -- 15 Q. You can issue fatwas, calling for them to be killed, right? 16 A. No, no, Mr. Morvillo, I will not issue fatwahs for them to 17 be killed. 18 I will just suppress my anger, I will, as I say, cry 19 out loud like, you know, some people, some other people who are 20 maybe so oppressed. 21 I can work out, try to get to a solution in this piece 22 of land. That is what I could try to do, so that is why I say 23 the method is very, very complicated, it is not just black and 24 white, sitting here today and just, you know, saying issue a 25 jihad against them and kick them out and do this, no, we cannot SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10430 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 do that. 2 Q. Your understanding was that was Abdel Rahman's opinion, 3 right? 4 A. Do I understand that was? 5 Q. Abdel Rahman's opinion? 6 A. As I say, it is the opinion of many people, yes, but it is 7 not as black and white. Chances are -- 8 Q. I my question is not your opinion, but Sheikh Abdel -- 9 A. Yes. 10 THE COURT: Stop. Question, answer. The reporter 11 can't get two people talking at the same time. I am not sure 12 the question was finished. 13 MR. TIGAR: I object to the form of the question. 14 Incomplete form, asking for somebody's opinion, not the 15 witness' understanding. 16 THE COURT: Rephrase the question. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO: 18 Q. The question was: It is your understanding that Sheikh 19 Abdel Rahman's opinion was that Islam should wage jihad against 20 Israel, right? 21 A. Yes, but also in my understanding, the Sheikh Rahman's 22 opinion was if the Palestinians can't solve the problem with 23 the Israelis, it is up to the Palestinians. Once the problem 24 is solved, they could live together. I understood this from 25 listening to some of the things that he said, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10431 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 Q. When Sheikh Abdel Rahman was in Egypt prior to coming to 2 the United States, you are aware, your understanding is that he 3 issued a fatwah, calling for the assassination of Anwar Sadat, 4 right? 5 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: I'll sustain that. 7 BY MR. MORVILLO: 8 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman issued 9 for a fatwah, calling for the assassination of President Anwar 10 Sadat? 11 A. No. 12 Q. That is not your understanding? 13 A. No, that is not my understanding. My understanding was -- 14 MR. TIGAR: I object, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Sustained. 16 BY MR. MORVILLO: 17 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman approved 18 the assassination of Anwar Sadat? 19 MR. TIGAR: Objection, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: All right, sustained. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. It is your understanding that Sheikh Abdel Rahman left 23 Egypt in the late 80's, right? 24 A. In the late 80's? 25 Q. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10432 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. I don't know if he left permanently or just, you know -- 2 Q. Permanently? 3 A. No. He left Egypt permanently in I believe it was in 1990. 4 He never went back after that. 5 Q. You know he was in Afghanistan part time, right? 6 A. I know he was in Afghanistan, yes. We also saw the 7 pictures of him there. 8 Q. Those are pictures of him in Afghanistan, right? 9 A. Yes, the war between the Afghanistani people and the Soviet 10 Union. 11 Q. And the people that he was were with mujahidin, right? 12 A. Yes, this is what they were called at the time, yes. 13 Q. And he came to the United States in 1990? 14 A. Yes, I believe, I believe so. 15 Q. And you met him when he came to the mosque to preach? 16 A. I saw him first in a different mosque, but I get to know 17 him when he came to the mosque, yes. 18 Q. You listened to some of his sermons and some of his 19 speeches and lectures, right? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. At one point, you testified you became one of his drivers? 22 A. I drove. I was not a driver. I drove him a few times, 23 yes, from the mosque to where he lived in Jersey City and I 24 picked him up. 25 Q. He had a number of other drivers as well, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10433 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 A. He had other people, you know, that were driving him. He 2 is a blind man, you know, he needs to be -- 3 Q. That was in the fall of '92, you said, that you started 4 driving him? 5 A. Yeah, I believe it was the fall of '92. The Sheikh, if he 6 is going to give a lecture in your mosque, somebody has to go 7 and pick him up. This is what I was, you know - this is what I 8 did. 9 Q. And he lived in New Jersey? 10 A. He lived in Jersey City, yes. 11 Q. Jersey City? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. This is around the time, in the fall of 1992, you started 14 driving him from time to time that your relationship with him 15 developed? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. How often did you see him between the fall of 1992 and his 18 arrest in '93? 19 A. I saw him a couple of times a week in the fall of '92 till 20 about February or March 1993. He used to come to the mosque, 21 what you said, he was given two days in the mosque to give 22 lectures, and so I saw him, I saw him ones once, two times a 23 week. 24 After that, in March of '93 I saw him on more 25 occasions. President Mubarak was coming to visit the United SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10434 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 States, and as what I said before, I was working with him on 2 the media and having some press interviews for him and stuff 3 like this, and I saw him more than -- in this period of time 4 from March of '93 until his arrest, I saw him more than once. 5 Q. He was convicted of conspiring to kill President Mubarak 6 when he came to the United States in '93, right? 7 A. Yes, he was. 8 Q. You know that during the speeches that he gave in the early 9 90's, he embraced the term "terrorist," right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. He stated, did he not, that we must be terrorists and we 12 must terrorize the enemies of Islam and frighten them and 13 disturb them and shake the earth under their feet. 14 You're familiar with that, right? 15 A. Yes, but you are isolating something, taken totally out of 16 context. Historic context and the speech context and the 17 events that was given, and also sitting here, I am saying this, 18 if you don't have an understanding of the Quran and what the 19 word "terrorist" means, you will probably misread him there. 20 Q. That is what he said? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Some of the speeches you have heard or read by Abdel 23 Rahman, he opposed political parties, right? 24 A. I am not quite sure if it was a speech, or I know his 25 opinion about political parties, but I am not quite sure, you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10435 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 know, where exactly he said he was saying that. I know he 2 opposed political parties, yes. 3 Q. Are you familiar with a statement by him that every party 4 that does not employ the Islamic law as its method is -- 5 A. I cannot hear you, Mr. Morvillo. 6 Q. Sorry. I'll speak into the microphone. 7 Every party that does not employ the Islamic law as 8 its method is what? Is definitely the party of the devil. Are 9 you familiar with that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. It is fair to say, is it not, that you understood that 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman endorsed assassinations in his speeches? 13 A. I can't say that I understand that he endorsed 14 assassination. He -- assassination -- he spoke about 15 assassination. I am not quite sure in what -- unless I see the 16 speech, and I can just say what was, what was said or what did 17 he say. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 19 Government Exhibit 2077 TA? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. This is a speech by Sheikh Abdel Rahman that was seized in 23 your home. In one of his answers to a question, he stated 24 Sadat, in the eyes of the Quran, is an infidel because he did 25 not follow God's rules. He was an oppressor and infidel; and, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10436 4CDJSAT2A Sattar - cross 1 therefore, removing him was inevitable and he should have been 2 overthrown, which couldn't be done. Killing him was the only 3 way, so let him be killed. 4 He said that, right? 5 A. Yes, he did. 6 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, there was a limiting 7 instruction on that exhibit. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MORVILLO: It was, I believe, received -- 10 THE COURT: Not for the truth of the matters asserted, 11 but for the effect on the witness' knowledge and intent and 12 state of mind. 13 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 (continued on next page) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10437 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: I'm sorry. May I confer with 2 Mr. Morvillo? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Counsel conferring) 5 MR. MORVILLO: Only with respect to Mr. Sattar, your 6 Honor, this exhibit was received. 7 THE COURT: All right. The exhibit is received only 8 with respect to Mr. Sattar and not for the truth of the matters 9 asserted but for the effect on the witness' knowledge, intent 10 and state of mind. 11 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 12 Q. Another page of that exhibit, the question is posed to him: 13 Is the word assassination an Islamic word or better use the 14 word "individual Jihad"? 15 And the Sheikh answered: "Individual Jihad" is 16 better. 17 Right? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. And whether you call it individual jihad or assassination, 20 it's still murder, right? 21 A. It is still murder but I will not call it individual jihad 22 myself. The Sheikh can call it individual jihad. I would not 23 call that individual jihad myself. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 25 Exhibit 211T, to the jury? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10438 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this was a government exhibit in Sheikh Abdel 3 Rahman's trial, correct? 4 A. Yes. And I believe there was the other tape that you were 5 showing me was also introducing Sheikh Abdel Rahman's trial. 6 Q. The prior one? 7 A. The prior one that was found in my home, yes. 8 Q. Ms. Griffith, can you go to the bottom of page 7? 9 The Ninth Doubt. Now, this is a speech by Abdel 10 Rahman. "They also said that the individual work decides not 11 jihad" -- 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 13 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry. 14 Q. "The individual deeds, not jihad, and that jihad is a 15 collective work. What is this? This is an assault on the 16 prophet's instructions. There is an individual jihad when the 17 prince orders him then he goes and do it. This is a single 18 work. And the assassinations. The assassinations for the sake 19 of rendering Islam triumphant is a legitimate matter." 20 He said that, right? 21 A. Yes, but continue, please, if you can read the rest of it? 22 Because you know, I have something to say about that. 23 Q. My question is only did he say what I read. 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10439 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Exhibit 2040T, in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 Q. This was another speech of Abdel Rahman's seized from your 4 home. 5 A. Are you asking me? 6 Q. Yes, I'm asking you. 7 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 8 Honor? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 (Counsel conferring) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there was a limiting 12 instruction given when this document was received. It was only 13 received against Mr. Sattar with respect to his knowledge, 14 state of mind and intent. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit is received 17 solely -- was received solely with respect to Mr. Sattar and 18 solely with respect to his knowledge, intent and state of mind. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Ms. Griffith, can you go to page 7 and 20 highlight the first half of the second paragraph? 21 During this speech Abdel Rahman stated, did he not, 22 "Thus, we are in a weak, humiliating and subservient position. 23 Indeed, we need to understand our faith. Jihad say foundation 24 and an obligation for spreading Islam. Indeed, indeed, without 25 hesitation or shame. Without hesitation, shame or mentality SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10440 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 failure, this faith was spread by the sword. Indeed, indeed we 2 endorse assassinations. We have to assassinate. Indeed, we 3 are terrorists. Our faith obligates us to be terrorists." 4 He said that, right? 5 A. Yes, he said that. 6 But, as what I said before, you cannot just isolate 7 certain things of what he said from the whole thing. Any one 8 of those tapes that you showed today it was Sheikh Abdel Rahman 9 did it between 1991 and 1993. If we go to all those tapes and 10 the events that surrounding those tapes, you will understand 11 what was going on there. 12 Some of those tapes, you know, he was giving it during 13 the Bosnian conference -- 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, the fact of the matter is that Sheikh Abdel 15 Rahman endorsed assassinations as permissible, legitimate 16 jihad, yes or no? 17 A. He is -- this is what he said here, yes. 18 Q. Now, before Sheikh Abdel Rahman was arrested in 1993, you 19 attended many of the sermons, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you traveled with him, right? 22 A. Travelled with him? 23 Q. Did you go to Detroit with him? 24 A. No, I never did. 25 Q. Did you not go to Detroit with Sheikh Abdel Rahman? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10441 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. No, I never did. 2 Q. Well, you certainly visited him frequently? 3 A. I visited him in Jersey City. The only place you could 4 call travel is I traveled from Staten Island to Jersey city. 5 Q. And at the mosque you became familiar and friendly with 6 some of his other followers, right? 7 A. Some of his other followers? No, I cannot, I will not say 8 that. I will say I become familiar -- I mean, that was my 9 mosque before Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman come there, it was, you 10 know, I was member of that mosque. I went to this mosque and 11 so I cannot just, you know, to attach the mosque to Sheikh Omar 12 Abdel Rahman or to his followers. 13 Q. You knew the people -- you knew many of the people who 14 attended his sermons, right? 15 A. I know many people who attended the mosque, right, and some 16 of his sermons, yes. 17 Q. Now, you testified on direct examination that there came a 18 time when you were subpoenaed by the FBI for what you called 19 hand swabbing? 20 A. That was in 1993, yes. 21 Q. 1993. When in 1993? 22 A. That was in April 1993. 23 Q. April? 24 A. April 1993 Agent Steve Viera, he is the one who actually 25 came to my job and swabbed my hands in front of my co-workers. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10442 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And it was your understanding that the hand swabbing was to 2 test for chemical residue? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And it was also your understanding that that hand swabbing 5 was done in connection with an investigation that the FBI was 6 conducting, right? 7 A. My understanding it was not for an investigation. My 8 understanding it was a retaliation against me. My 9 understanding it was that day I had an -- the New York Times 10 published an interview with me and they were -- I was talking 11 about how the FBI is targeting Arabs and, you know, going, 12 knocking on doors and you know, bothering people. And after 13 the first World Trade Center bombing. 14 Miraculously the FBI showed to my job with a forthwith 15 subpoena that day. I took it as a retaliation against me 16 because I spoke out. This is how I took it. 17 Q. And that was a grand jury subpoena? 18 A. It was a grand jury subpoena. It was signed by a judge. 19 Q. And so it's your testimony that the grand jury subpoena was 20 issued in retaliation for your speaking out in the newspaper? 21 A. Yes. My understanding at the time, yes. 22 Q. It had nothing to do with your connection to Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman? 24 A. Well, it could be, but, you know, this is at the time I 25 looked at like this. I finished, you know, right after the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10443 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 subpoena, I had a press conference in my home. I invited every 2 major press organization in my home and I said that. 3 Q. At this time the World Trade Center had been bombed, right? 4 That was February of '93? 5 A. Oh yes. Yes. 6 Q. And Mohammed Salameh had already been arrested, right? 7 A. Mohammed Salameh has been arrested. 8 Q. And you knew that your telephone number appeared in 9 Mohammed Salameh's address books, right? 10 A. No, I did not know that. 11 Q. You knew Mohammed Salameh, didn't you? 12 A. I knew Mohammed Salameh, yes. I seen him in Jersey City. 13 I cannot say that I know him, you know, I -- I was -- had a 14 friendship with him or anything. I know him as a fellow Muslim 15 who was attending the mosque in Jersey city. 16 Q. Did you know Mahmoud Abu-Halima? 17 A. Yes, Mahmoud Abu-Halima was, he lived in Brooklyn and he 18 attended Abu Bakr mosque sometimes. 19 Q. And you knew him before he was arrested in connection with 20 the first bombing of the World Trade Center too, right? 21 A. I know him, yes. 22 Q. And did you know Nidal Ayyad? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. Now, Mr. Abu-Halima was convicted of the first World Trade 25 Center bombing, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10444 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, he was. 2 Q. And Mr. Salameh was convicted of the first World Trade 3 Center bombing, right? 4 A. Yes, he was. 5 Q. In fact, he was the one who rented the van apparently, 6 right? 7 A. He was the one who rented the van. I believe -- I believe 8 so, yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we have a limiting 10 instruction with respect to all of this? It is not offered for 11 the truth and only as to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and 12 state of mind? 13 I'm sorry, your Honor. That was my request. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo? 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, some of the testimony with 16 respect to the relationships is certainly offered for the 17 truth. His understanding of what happened to these individuals 18 is only offered for his understanding. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. TIGAR: I ask to be heard at the break, your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: I will listen at the break but any 23 statements by the witness about what happened to any of those 24 individuals or what those individuals did is received solely 25 with respect to Mr. Sattar's knowledge, intent and state of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10445 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 mind. 2 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 3 Q. We spoke earlier today, Mr. Sattar, about Sayeed Nosair? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. You attended his trial, right, in 1991? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And he was a co-defendant of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's in the 8 trial that you worked as a paralegal on, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. But prior to that he had been tried in the state, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And he was being tried in the state for the murder of Rabbi 13 Kahane, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you attended that trial? Regularly? 16 A. I'm sorry. 17 Q. You attended that trial regularly, right? 18 A. Yes, I did. 19 Q. Was Mr. Nosair a friend of yours before he was arrested? 20 A. I never knew Mr. Nosair before he was arrested. It was a 21 very high profile case, you know, I mean in the newspapers and 22 on TV and it attracted hundreds of Muslims and it attracted 23 hundreds of Jewish too. It was all over and it was, you know, 24 people were -- people supporting Nosair outside the courtroom, 25 Jewish people opposing him and, you know. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10446 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 So, it was a very high profile case. I was one of 2 hundreds of people that attended the Nosair's trial. 3 Q. And Mr. Nosair was convicted of weapons charged in 4 connection with that state trial, right? 5 A. Yes, he was acquitted on the murder charge and he was 6 convicted of a weapon charge. 7 Q. And he was then subsequently convicted of the murder in the 8 trial with Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 9 A. Yes, in the federal -- yes. 10 Q. And after the state trial ended, he was sentenced to prison 11 and sent to Attica, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And you visited him in Attica on several occasions, right? 14 A. No. I visited him once. I will never forget this day 15 because that day my father died and I sat with him -- the 16 minute I get there to Attica I was received by him and I was 17 told, you know, to go -- to go back and I found that -- I did 18 not even sit with him. The imam there counsels me and said you 19 have to go back because my father had a heart attack so I drove 20 back. 21 This was the only time I visited him in Attica. 22 Q. And that's a 16 hour trip? 23 A. I'm not sure, no. 16 hour trip? That's -- no. It's -- 24 I'm not quite sure how long the trip -- it's about eight hours, 25 nine hours, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10447 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Round trip I meant. 2 A. I'm sorry. 3 Q. I meant round trip. 4 A. Round trip, yes. 5 Q. Now, you also know Ramzi Yousef, right? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Well -- 8 A. I know about Ramzi Yousef from what I read. I never met 9 Ramzi Yousef. I seen him when I was -- when I went to MCC to, 10 you know, walking through MCC, you know, you could see the 11 cells. I seen him in one of them cells but I never spoke to 12 him, I never knew him. I didn't know anything about him except 13 what I read. 14 Q. Isn't it true, Mr. Sattar, that you had some correspondence 15 from him in your home? 16 A. I had -- I had -- yes, a letter from him in my home. 17 What happened, you no know, we or -- me and some other 18 people, you know, we were publishing a newspaper. You can, you 19 know, it's a few pages newspaper, about two, three pages 20 newspaper, an Islamic newspaper and we were distributing it in 21 Brooklyn and in the metropolitan area also. 22 Those newspapers I was -- it was sent to prison to 23 inmates in prison and it happened that Ramzi Yousef, his name 24 was just on the list like other people and I send it, this 25 newspaper to him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10448 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 When the newspaper was stopped being published he sent 2 a letter asking if -- if this newspaper can be sent back to him 3 or why the -- you know why I stopped sending the newspaper to 4 him. 5 That was in that context, Mr. Morvillo. I did not 6 have any contact with Ramzi Yousef except in this capacity or 7 that context. 8 Q. But you have corresponded with many other people who have 9 been convicted of crimes of terrorism, right? 10 A. I have correspondence with mainly the people that they were 11 on the Sheikh's case that I got to know during the Sheikh's 12 trial. I cannot say correspondence that I am sending them 13 letters and they are sending me letters. They would send -- 14 some of them will send me letters asking me if I can help 15 assist with some lawyers. Some of them will call me asking if 16 I can get in touch with that lawyer or that lawyer. Some of 17 them will call me that, you know, and they are in need, you 18 know, for some money. 19 And I, part of the charity that I, from my mosque and 20 from the Muslim community, especially during Ramadan, I used to 21 send them some money. 22 Q. So, in addition to Sheikh Abdel Rahman to whom you sent 23 money, you sent money to other people who were convicted and 24 serving life sentences for crimes of terrorism, right? 25 A. Yes, I did send that, not only just people who were SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10449 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 convicted in crime of terrorism, anybody who I know that, some 2 people who I know that they just Muslims and they are 3 imprisoned. 4 Even as what I said before, yes, they are criminals 5 but they are still human beings. 6 MR. MORVILLO: May I approach, your Honor? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, are you familiar with this document? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. What is it? 11 A. This is, was a document, you know, where the addresses of 12 some of the people who were convicted in the Sheikh's case and 13 the World Trade Center and I was just, their addresses, their 14 inmate numbers that I was sending them money during the 15 holidays, the Muslim holidays. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government offers 17 Government Exhibit 803. 18 MR. FALLICK: No objection, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right, government -- 20 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 21 Honor? 22 THE COURT: Sure. 23 (Counsel conferring) 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government only offers 25 this with respect to Mr. Sattar. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10450 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: All right. Government Exhibit 803 2 received in evidence, solely with respect to Mr. Sattar. 3 (Government's Exhibit 803 received in evidence) 4 MR. MORVILLO: May I publish it to the jury? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 7 Q. This was a document that was on your computer, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And what you said was that it is a list of individuals to 10 whom you would sometimes correspond, send money, people that 11 you did favors for? 12 A. People that I mainly send money for, yes and other people 13 that -- most of those people that I knew during the trial of 14 the Sheikh Rahman. I work, you know, with their lawyers, you 15 know, as part of the Sheikh's trial. 16 Q. Now, Ahmed Ajaj was in the first World Trade Center trial, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. He was in the first World Trade Center, yes. 19 Q. Did you know him before he was convicted of the first 20 bombing of the World Trade Center? 21 A. I don't even think that I ever seen him except in picture. 22 Q. And let's just go down the list. Amir Abdelgany, did you 23 did you know him before the Sheikh's trial? 24 A. He was one of the Sheikh's co-defendants, yes. 25 Q. Did you know him prior to his arrest? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10451 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. No. 2 Q. What about Clement Hampton-El? Did you know him prior to 3 his arrest? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Fadel Abdelgany? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Ibrahim Elgabrowny? 8 A. Ibrahim Elgabrowny, yes. He was a member of Abu Bakr 9 Mosque and he was the Sheikh's co-defendant. 10 Q. And he was convicted of solicitous conspiracy, yes? 11 A. He was convicted of solicitous conspiracy, yes. 12 Q. The next name, Abu-Halima and Mohamed Salameh we have 13 spoken about? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. They were not in the Sheikh's case, they were in the first 16 World Trade Center bombing case? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. How about Mohammed Saled? 19 A. Mohammed Saled was one of the Sheikh's co-defendant. 20 Q. Did you know him prior, too? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Nidal Ayyad, we talked about him, you said you didn't know 23 him? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Omar Ali? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10452 4CD5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. That's the Sheikh himself. 2 Q. That's the Sheikh, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Sayyed Nosair we have spoken about all ready? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Siddig Ali? 7 A. I know him as a translator, you know, back then in 1993 8 during the Sheikh's immigration hearing, and I told him Siddig 9 Ali was well own. 10 Q. You testified about him on him on direct examination, 11 right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Tariq Hassan? 14 A. I don't know. I mean I know him during the Sheikh's trial. 15 He was one of his co-defendants. I