10802 4CFMSAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 15, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID STERN 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10803 4CFMSAT1 1 (Trial resumed) 2 (In open court; jury not present) 3 THE COURT: Mr. Dember, is it all right without 4 Ms. Baker? 5 MR. DEMBER: Yes, your Honor, we can proceed. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 7 Mr. Morvillo, go to the lecturn. 8 The jurors are still filling out menus. 9 (Jury present) 10 THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. It is 11 good to see you all as always. 12 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 13 Mr. Fletcher. 14 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded that 15 you are still under oath. 16 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 17 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may examine. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 20 Your Honor, may I display for the jury Government 21 Exhibit 1048X in evidence? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION (cont'd) 24 BY MR. MORVILLO: 25 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation, a transcript SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10804 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 of a telephone conversation that occurred on January 5, 2000? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And it was between you and Fawzi? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. This was the first time that you spoke with the person who 6 identified himself as Fawzi, right? 7 A. Yes, I believe so, yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 2 of the transcript, at line 1 you say: 9 Thanks be to God. Who is this? Who is calling? And he says, 10 Fawzi, son of Mr. Hammam. And you didn't know who that was, 11 right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. He says to you at line 6: How are um Hazim, Abu Hazim and 14 the kids? And you say: Well, thank God, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 16 Fawzi says to you: Please tell Abu Hazim that 17 Mr. Hammam Badrawi misses him very much, and he wishes he had 18 contacted you a lot sooner, but he did not know your new 19 address. He accidentally ran into the engineer and asked him 20 about your phone number. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Abu Hazim is Mr. Mustafa Hamza? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Hammam Badrawi you came to know as Atia? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10805 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And the engineer is Salah Hashim, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And so, in essence, what Fawzi is telling you here is that 4 he wanted you to tell Mustafa Hamza that Atia misses him and 5 that he got your telephone number from Salah Hashim? 6 A. In essence, he is telling me that he is putting it in a 7 language because what I understood at the time that he was 8 talking from an outside phone. In Egypt, you don't have public 9 phones in each corner. 10 You have to go to what they call a central office 11 where you make a payment and somebody puts you on the phone and 12 sometimes they listen to what you are saying, so he is just 13 putting in a language where he doesn't want those people who 14 are listening to understand what he has said. He is making it 15 like his, you know, Abu Hazim, for example, asking about the 16 relative or somebody. I understood. 17 Q. He was speaking in code, right? 18 A. He was trying to just not to let the other people know what 19 he was talking about; I mean, in Egypt. 20 Q. And when he said he did not know your new address, what did 21 you understand him to be saying? 22 A. He didn't know where he was, Abu Hazim. He didn't know 23 where Abu Hazim was. 24 Q. And displaying page 3 of Government Exhibit 1048, Fawzi 25 says to you: They said that Mr. Ahmed can connect you to them. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10806 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 It is important, Mr. Ahmed, that you give the number I am about 2 to give you to Abu Hazim. 3 What you understood is that he was telling you that 4 Salah Hashim told him that you could connect him to Abu Hazim? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And at line 8 Fawzi tells you that this is Mr. Ahmed 7 Sherif's number. Do you see that? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And Ahmed Sherif was, as far as you understood, a person 10 who had a telephone that Atia could use to speak to you and Abu 11 Hazim, Mustafa Hamza, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Displaying page 4 from Government Exhibit 1048X, at line 14 14, Fawzi tells you: If this number does not connect for him, 15 he can call him at Dr. Ismail, his number, I will give you the 16 second number. 17 What he is telling you is if you can't get in touch 18 with Atia through Ahmed Sherif's number try Dr. Ismail's 19 number, right? 20 A. If I cannot in touch with -- yes. It was Hammam Badrawi. 21 He is telling me if I cannot get in touch -- I mean, if he 22 cannot get in touch with that number of Ahmed Sherif, I could 23 call the another number, which was Dr. Ismail. 24 Q. He gave you those phone numbers, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10807 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Those phone numbers were in Egypt? 2 A. They were in Egypt. 3 Q. And displaying page 5 from Government Exhibit 1048X, at 4 line 20 and 21 Fawzi says to you: It is essential that you 5 tell Abu Hazim to call Mr. Hammam Badrawi at Mr. Ahmed Sherif's 6 or Dr. Ismail. And you said yes, yes, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I have the Court's 9 permission to just step out for a moment to get something that 10 I forgot? Ms. Shellow-Lavine will remain with Ms. Stewart and 11 Ms. Stewart consents. 12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, at this time may I display 14 Government Exhibit 1050X in evidence? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation over your 17 telephone on January 17 of 2000? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And this is a call between yourself and Fawzi again, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this is the first call that you had was on January 5, 22 right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So this is about 12 days later? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10808 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And displaying page 2, after you greet one another, Fawzi 2 says to you: Anyway, I wish you would really listen to me 3 carefully, because the time is almost over. And you said: 4 Okay. Please go ahead. 5 What you understood was that he was calling from a pay 6 phone? 7 A. Yes, from the central office. Because, you go there, you 8 pay in advance and they give you three minutes if you are in 9 Egypt. And once the three minutes are over, the call is cut 10 again and you have to go up to the window again and pay another 11 payment. Or if you have money to do it, and they will give you 12 another three minutes. This is what I understood when I was in 13 Egypt. 14 Q. At line 16 Fawzi says to you: Eh, Hammam Badrawi is 15 Mr. Alaa, eh and you says, Mr. Alaa. And he says yes, Alaa 16 Abdul Raziq. And you said yes? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In between these two calls, you tried to get in touch with 19 Mr. Abu Hazim, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Also told Rifa'i Taha about the calls, about the first call 22 that you had received from Fawzi, right? 23 A. I believe I told him, yes. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 25 Exhibit 1065X in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10809 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation that occurred 3 on March 26 of 2000? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Over your telephone? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And, again, it is a telephone conversation with you and 8 Fawzi? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And after the greetings he says: Why should I give you the 11 number? And you say: I will call you. I don't want to keep 12 you on the phone so it won't cost you much -- keep you long on 13 the phone so it won't cost you much. I will call you. I mean 14 I will. 15 What you're saying to him is that you're going to call 16 him back because it costs him money to call you on a public 17 telephone? 18 A. Yes. He was actually complaining, I think, you know, in 19 the previous call or the call before that, you know, they have 20 no money and this telephone -- I know it is expensive for 21 people in Egypt to call the United States. It will cost them 22 more than it will cost me here to call somebody in Egypt. I 23 said: Just give me your phone number, I will call you to save 24 you some money, yes. 25 Q. And then at line 7 he says to you: No, uh, the purpose of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10810 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 the call is to speak to Abu Yasir, or Abu Hazim. And then you 2 respond: But you didn't say so, you told me Abu Hazim. Abu 3 Yasir calls me all the -- as soon as Abu Yasir calls, I'll have 4 him call you. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so what happened here is that you didn't understand him 7 to want to talk to Abu Yasir from your initial calls, right? 8 A. No. I did not understand that he wanted to talk to Abu 9 Yasir. I understood that he wanted to talk to Abu Hazim, and I 10 was under the impression that I am not in contact with Abu 11 Hazim. I was in contact with Yunis. I didn't know that Abu 12 Hazim was talking to me. So I said Abu Yasir calls me all the 13 time. If you want to speak to him, I can do that. And when I 14 told Abu Yasir about that conversation between -- previous 15 conversation between me and Fawzi, it was just to inform him, 16 to get in touch with Abu Hazim and tell him that those people 17 want to talk to him. So I didn't know that I was talking to 18 Abu Hazim. 19 Q. But when you first spoke to Fawzi you sent an e-mail to 20 Yunis, right? 21 A. I sent an e-mail to Yunis and to Rifa'i Taha, yes, because 22 I didn't know -- I mean, I knew who Abu Hazim was, but I was 23 not -- I didn't know that I was in touch with him. 24 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 25 Government Exhibit 1068X in evidence? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10811 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 Q. Mr. Sattar, the last call between you and Fawzi, which we 3 just discussed a moment ago, occurred on March 26 of 2000, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And now this is a few days later on April 1 of 2000 over 7 your telephone and it is a conversation between Mustafa Hamza 8 and Hani? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Hani, it turns out, is Fawzi, right? 11 A. Yes, it is the same person. 12 Q. And when he originally contacted you he said that his name 13 was Fawzi? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And later, during this call, he says that his name is Hani? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. When Mustafa Hamza gets on the phone he asks to speak to 18 brother Alaa at line 4. May I talk to brother Alaa, please. 19 You see that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's a reference to Atia, right? 22 A. This is reference to, yes, Hammam Badrawi. 23 Q. His full name is Alaa Abdel Raziq Atia? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. At line 6 he starts to say the full name, but gets cut off, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10812 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Alaa Ab -- the phone was handed to Hani, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Displaying page 2 from that transcript, at line 10 Hani 4 says: Um, anyway, let me introduce myself to you. Hamza says: 5 Go ahead. Hani says: I am Hani. And Hamza says: Ah. And 6 Hani then says: I was sent to you by the person you called the 7 other day, Mr. Alaa. And Hamza said: Oh, oh, yes, yes. Hani 8 says: He sent me to you and told me to return your call. 9 Anyway, I am Hani, and I am the one who contacted you, 10 Mr. Ahmed, and I used the name Fawzi. 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. What he is saying there to Mustafa Hamza is that he is the 13 person who called you and called himself Fawzi, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And just so we are clear, Mr. Ahmed is a reference to you 16 at line 17? 17 A. Yes. That's in reference to me, yes. 18 Q. And then he says: Yes, yes. And then Hani says: I am the 19 one who got the phone number from the engineer. 20 The engineer you understood to be Salah Hashim? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Displaying page 3 from Government Exhibit 1068X, at line 8 23 Hamza says to you: Mr. Alaa was trying for a long time to 24 contact Abu Yasir or Abu Hazim. And Mr. Alaa, again, is a 25 reference to Atia? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10813 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hamza says: Yes. And Hani says: I will talk openly 3 with you now, so later we will be on sure grounds. And Hamza 4 says: Yes. And Hani says: We had been in contact with the 5 engineer for a long time now, about 15 months ago. Hamza says 6 yes. And Hani says: And he is good to deal with. I am the 7 one who took Ahmed's phone number from him. 8 Again, he has been saying they have been talking for 9 the last 15 months to Salah Hashim and recently they got your 10 telephone number from Salah Hashim? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. At line 2 is Hani tells Mustafa Hamza: Now, Mr. Alaa is 13 very tight and needs money. Hamza says yes. And Hani says: 14 He is really very, very tight on money. He went to the many 15 people to no eh -- 16 It is your understanding that what he is saying is to 17 Mustafa Hamza, Atia needs money, can you please send him some? 18 A. I understand that he is talking about as what I said, at 19 this time I didn't know that he is talking about Atia as I know 20 it right now. He is saying that Alaa Abdel Raziq or Hammam 21 Badrawi needs money. 22 Q. Displaying page 4 from Government Exhibit 1068X, Mustafa 23 Hamza says to Hani: What? What are your needs exactly? And 24 at line 9 Hani responds: The most important thing now is -- he 25 is very good, but we need to have a direct contact with you, if SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10814 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 possible, through any other means, not the telephone, such as a 2 meeting or something. 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what Hani is telling him is that they want to get 5 together with Abu Hazim face to face? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you understood that the reason why they wanted to get 8 together face to face was because they were concerned that the 9 telephones were wiretapped, right? 10 A. No. I took it differently. I took it that the reason that 11 they know that Mustafa Hamza is outside Egypt. I took it that 12 he wants to meet with him face to face. He wants to get 13 outside. He wants to meet outside of Egypt. Because there is 14 no way for Abu Hazim to go back to Egypt to meet face to face 15 with him. 16 Q. Let's look at page 5. At line 6 Hani says: How about the 17 contact? How was it going to be done? Hamza says: Regarding 18 the contact, I really don't know. Do you think the phone is 19 good, so to speak? And Hani says: I have told you that it is 20 preferable to find a different way for contact because we 21 really went through hell to find this way. We really suffered. 22 That's what he said, right? 23 A. Yes. He wants a different way. 24 Q. At page 6 Hani says: But do you know who this man is? Do 25 you know who Alaa is? Hani says: No, we do not know. No, we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10815 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 do not. But we can understand in the future by reading in 2 between the lines. Hani says: He is the one you used to 3 contact under the name Issa. Now do you know who he is or not 4 yet? Or by the name Fawzi, you, unintelligible, south at 5 Mr. Hamid's place, may God rest his soul, whose name is Osman. 6 And Hamza responds: Yes, but this is uh -- this is very 7 difficult to figure out. You are saying very difficult things, 8 and things are changing constantly, especially that it has been 9 a long time now, it is more than five years, huh. 10 What Hamza is telling Hani is he doesn't know exactly 11 who Atia is, but that's because names are changing and it has 12 been a long time since they have been in contact, right? 13 A. Yes. It is -- he doesn't know who he is. Things have been 14 changed. People talk to other people. He just basically said 15 he doesn't know who Atia is. 16 Q. At line 23 Hamza says: And we are going to try to let the 17 engineer know that he is to help you whenever he gets something 18 from us. And then Hani says: Okay. But he was absolutely 19 against mentioning him on the telephone. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's because of a fear of wiretapping? 22 A. I'm sorry? 23 Q. That's because of a fear of wiretapping, right? 24 A. That's -- I don't know if it is because of the fear of the 25 wiretapping. I know that I called Salah Hashim and I asked him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10816 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 directly if he would give my number to those people, so I 2 really don't know if this is because of the fear of wiretapping 3 or not. It could be yes. 4 Q. You know that Salah Hashim was very, very upset that you 5 had called him and said that to him over the telephone, right? 6 A. And I understood his fear if I were in his place. I would 7 be shaking in my pants to that the Egyptians are going after 8 me. 9 Q. And his fear was that his phone was wiretapped, right? 10 A. Probably, yes. 11 Q. Displaying page 11 from Government Exhibit 1068X, at line 12 10 Hani says: That is regarding those difficult matters. If 13 it is something important, you can talk the normal way. And 14 Hamza says: Okay. Got willing. Next time we will try to talk 15 about the basics. Hani says: I really hope so because it is 16 difficult for him to move around. And Hamza says: I hope the 17 lord facilitates things, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the him who was having difficulty moving around you 20 understood to be Atia? 21 A. I understood, yes, him to be Alaa Abdel Raziq. 22 Q. So at the end of this call Mustafa Hamza tells Hani -- 23 because that was the first time that they had spoken, right? 24 A. I think it is, yes, it was the first time. 25 Q. Mustafa Hamza tells him: Next time we will cover the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10817 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 basics, right? 2 A. Yes, next time they are going to talk more, yes. 3 Q. So the first call was just sort of let's get introduced to 4 one another and then we will have a more substantial 5 conversation next time we speak? 6 A. Yes. He wants to know who those people are because if you 7 look at the first call, first contact between me and Hani or 8 Fawzi was in January. And all this month he did not know who 9 those people are and he didn't want to talk to them. And then 10 when they start begging more and if you go back to this 11 conversation, the previous conversation, you will see that 12 there was -- that they are tied, they are this, they are that. 13 So it was when he -- on the first call he didn't know who he is 14 talking to. That's why he was arranging for another call. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 16 Exhibit 1070X in evidence? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, the last call that we just looked at, 1068X in 19 evidence, was on April 1 of 2000, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And this call is 11 days later, on April 11 of 2000, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, again, Mustafa Hamza called you and then you called 24 over to Egypt to connect him with Hani? 25 A. Yes. Yunis called and I did connect him, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10818 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. As we were talking a few moments ago, you understood that 2 Salah Hashim was angry with you because you had spoken over his 3 telephone about the fact that he had given your telephone 4 number to Hani, right? 5 A. Repeat this again. I'm sorry. 6 Q. I'll try. 7 Salah Hashim was angry with you because you had said 8 to Salah Hashim on Salah Hashim's telephone, did you give my 9 telephone number to Hani? 10 A. Yes. I wanted to know who those people are. They said 11 they got the number from Salah Hashim, so I asked Salah Hashim 12 to ask if he gave my number to anybody. 13 Q. Displaying page 2 from Government Exhibit 1070X, at the 14 very bottom Hani is speaking with Mustafa Hamza and Hani says: 15 May the peace, mercy and blessings of God be upon you, too. 16 Sorry, Mr. Hamid was not able to come. He told me the 17 following to pass on to you. 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And Mr. Hamid is Atia? 20 A. This is one of his names, yes, that he was using, yes. 21 Q. Displaying page 3, Mustafa Hamza says: Please go ahead. 22 And Hani says: First, the reason why he did not come is he 23 called the engineer and found him very upset. 24 The engineer is Salah Hashim, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10819 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. He told Hamid that those guys summoned him to go to the 2 ministry. What he is saying is he told Atia that the 3 government summoned Salah Hashim to come and talk to them? 4 A. He said those guys mean the state security people called 5 him to go to the state security ministry, yes. 6 Q. And he states to Mustafa Hamza, they asked him, they being 7 the state security asked Salah Hashim who are those people who 8 want to contact Ahmed of America. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So what he is saying is that state security was asking 11 Salah Hashim, who is trying to get in touch with you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And reading again at line 5 Hani continues and says: Of 14 course, he denied that he has knowledge of that, and said that 15 his telephone, as well as Muntasir's, are known to be 16 monitored. He also told me that Ahmed contacted him twice at 17 his residence, and a third time on Muntasir's line. He speaks 18 openly over the phone. This is causing him to be very upset. 19 And he asked us to stop reaching him for now unless it is 20 extremely necessary. 21 That's what he said to Mustafa Hamza? 22 A. Yes. I called him and I spoke to him and I spoke to 23 Muntasir. I thought there was nothing to it. 24 Q. And here he is saying: Don't have this contact over by 25 telephone anymore, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10820 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Here he is upset that, you know, I did that. 2 Q. And that's because it brought the attention -- brought him 3 to the attention of the state security, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Displaying page 8 from Government Exhibit 1070X, it is a 6 continuation of the call between Hani and Mustafa Hamza. At 7 line 1 Hani says: Yeah, as usual, but you can tell him, for 8 instance, this is Mr. Ali, because he is a teacher, tell him 9 Mr. Ali. And Hamza says: Do I tell him to inform either Hani 10 or Hamid or -- and Hani says: Yeah, tell him to inform Hani or 11 Hamid. Yes. All the names I told you about are noms de 12 guerre. They don't know the other names, okay? Mustafa Hamza 13 says um. 14 What Hamza is telling him when he calls asking for 15 Atia, he should say, Mustafa Hamza should say, this is Mr. Ali, 16 and that he should refer to the names that he knows, right, 17 because they are code names, right? 18 A. That's what he says, noms de guerre, yes. 19 Q. At line 22 Hani tells Mustafa Hamza: Regarding the 20 engineer -- that's Salah Hashim, right? 21 A. I'm sorry? The engineer, yes, that's Salah Hashim, yes. 22 Q. He is telling you that our messenger is the engineer named 23 Thabit. He is known to him by the name Thabit, okay? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. What that means is that the person between Atia and Hani SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10821 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 and Salah Hashim is a person named Thabit? 2 A. Yes. They are not in direct contact with Salah Hashim. 3 Q. Hani tells Mr. Mustafa Hamza, we are naming the same 4 engineer, Abu Nadhara, okay? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What that means is that Hani and Atia refer to Salah Hashim 7 as Abu Nadhara, right? 8 A. Yes. The one with glasses, yes. 9 Q. Displaying page 9 from Government Exhibit 1070X Hani says: 10 By the way, Abu Nadhara is asking Mr. Hamid frequently for 11 reports which have to do with evaluating the past. He is 12 maneuvering with him, and keeps delaying this matter as much as 13 possible. So what is your opinion? He did not give him 14 anything yet. Abu Nadhara sent Hamid a letter from Abu Yasir 15 through Muntasir, about Salih Al-Asmar. 16 What Hani is telling Mr. Abu Hamza is Mr. Salah Hashim 17 sent Atia a letter from Rifa'i Taha through Muntasir Al-Zayyat? 18 A. Let me read this, please. 19 Yes. He said he is telling him, if we go back to some 20 of the calls, there is a conversation between Salah Hashim and 21 Abu Yasir, and they are talking about a letter, a big letter, 22 19-pages letter that is explaining his commitment to the peace 23 initiative. And it is just, you know, telling them to use him 24 as -- to be the bad boy, using, you know, as a tough guy. So 25 he is talking about that letter that was sent to Muntasir and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10822 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Muntasir give to Salah Hashim and Salah Hashim give to those 2 people, to Atia's people to read. So he is referring to that 3 letter. 4 Q. Did you see that letter? 5 A. No. I heard about it on the phone. There is conversation 6 between Salah Hashim and Abu Yasir about that. 7 Q. Displaying the next page, page 10 of Government Exhibit 8 1070X, at line 22 Hamza states: Regarding the engineer, I need 9 to be sure of this, because there is a lot of confusion. Are 10 you certain that the engineer is the one who gave you the 11 brother's telephone number, correct? And Hani says: Mm, yes, 12 of course. And Hamza says: Am I right? Carrying over to the 13 next page Hani says: Yes, of course. And Hamza says: If this 14 is the case, didn't he know that the brother can talk or call 15 or something? What was on his mind when he gave the phone 16 number? This problem arose and they summoned him. And Hani 17 says: According to confirmed news, he has, last week he 18 went -- and Hamza says: I understand. We all know that. It 19 did not occur to him when he took the telephone number that all 20 the telephones of all parties, the brother you spoke to, or the 21 engineer himself, are all monitored? All of them are 22 monitored, ah? Hani says: So what can we do? It would be 23 good if you come up with another solution. 24 Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani you have to be careful 25 about talking over the telephones, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10823 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. He is telling him all those telephones are monitored 2 by Egyptian security agency. And you know, for a person like 3 Salah Hashim to be summoned by the ministry, it is a bad thing, 4 yes. It is enough to put the fear in anybody's heart. So he 5 is just telling them, yes, all those phones are monitored, and 6 he doesn't want problems for them to arise. 7 Q. Again, this is the second time that Mustafa Hamza and Hani 8 had spoken over your telephone, this call? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Displaying the next page, page 12, at line 2 Hamza says: 11 It is very difficult to eh -- I want you to get me some 12 information from him, him being Atia, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. When was the last time he spoke to the people outside, with 15 who did he talk, when, ah, and what was the content of their 16 conversation. 17 The people outside were the people, the Islamic Group 18 leaders who are outside of Egypt, right? 19 A. The people outside of Egypt, yes. He still doesn't know 20 who Atia is. He doesn't know who he used to be in contact with 21 him or anything. The whole thing is just vague to him. 22 Q. But he clearly knows that Atia is someone from the Islamic 23 Group, right? 24 A. According to this, he is questioning where they get my 25 telephone number from. So he is still questioning -- he has SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10824 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 questions asking. I am not sure if he knows that those people 2 are from the Islamic Group or not. He has so many questions. 3 Q. It is fair to say, Mr. Sattar, that he is suspicious of who 4 Atia is? He is interested to try to find out, right, because 5 maybe he is concerned? 6 A. He is suspicious, yes. 7 Q. And Hani says at line 6: Do you want to verify with him or 8 what? What is it exactly that you want to verify. And Hamza 9 says: We want to verify everything, of course, because, as I 10 told you, there is a problem, okay? And Hani says: Okay, 11 sure. I really do not know what to tell you, mm, and Hamza 12 says: Well, it is over, but think he can visualize how it is. 13 I believe. And Hani says: I know it, I know it. Okay, fine. 14 And Hamza says: This will not solve a problem, the problem 15 remains? Huh. Then there is some mixed talking. 16 Then Hamza says at line 15: I don't understand. You 17 mean about the before is not enough or what? And then Hamza 18 says: No, no, nothing is enough. Even if we talk to him 19 directly, nothing is enough, you know? There is a problem, 20 lack of contact for a long time creates a problem. Like this 21 man who was separated from his friend for a while, he returns 22 wearing a wiretap. You understand how things are eh. And Hani 23 says: Yeah, I see. 24 What Hamza is telling Hani is they need to check out 25 who is trying to get in touch with him because maybe he is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10825 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 cooperating with the government, right? 2 A. That's specifically what he is saying, yes. 3 Q. Then on the next page, page 13 of Government Exhibit 1070X, 4 at line 4 Mustafa Hamza says: Every now and when we can take 5 some measures to restore security a bit. Hani says: Mm. 6 Hamza tells, telephones are a problem. They are the cause of a 7 big problem. 8 What you understood him to be saying is that the 9 phones are monitored and so we can't talk openly over the 10 telephone, right? 11 A. Yes. That's what he is saying. 12 Q. And it continues. Hani saying: Yeah, by God they are, mm, 13 what about the solution I told you about? And Hamza says: The 14 original -- simultaneously, the original visualizing, some 15 mixed talk, okay, fine, let me explain it to you. Hani says: 16 Mm. Hamza says: In principle, the money problem can be 17 partially solved. For example, if you give us a name. Mm, 18 says Hani. Hamza says: Of a trustworthy person, it will 19 partially solve the problem to some extent, because we don't 20 know with whom we are dealing, how, and we are still -- then 21 Hani interrupts him and says: Okay, fine. You can send it to 22 this doctor I told you about. 23 What Hamza and Hani are talking about is that Hamza 24 wants to send the money, and they need someone who is trusted 25 who can receive the money, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10826 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Farther along in the same conversation at page 18 of 3 Government Exhibit 1070X Hamza says: You call in order to 4 explain things to us. Besides, there is, eh, there is an 5 important point. We will need eh. This is an exception. Hani 6 says: Mm. Hamza says: We might talk to him openly in certain 7 matters. 8 And when he is saying talk openly, Mr. Sattar, what he 9 meanies is without talking in code, right? 10 A. No. I believe talking on the phone openly. There is 11 certain things that he can say on the phone and there are 12 certain things that he cannot say on the phone because this 13 will -- as he explained before, that was his fear. This is 14 what I understood from what he is saying. 15 Q. Hamza continues on and says: For example, I asked you 16 earlier if you know someone. You answered, "I can't say." And 17 Hamza tells Hani: This is not acceptable to me. I can't say. 18 It means that you are shutting the doors of insight in our 19 faces. Explain to him that the man wants to discuss candidly a 20 few things with you regarding the past in order to stand on 21 solid ground regarding communications. And Hani says: Yes, 22 sir, yes, sir, mm. And Hamza says: The more he brings up 23 stuff between him and us, between him and his friends who he 24 used to be with. Hani says: Mm. Hamza says: Do you 25 understand? And Hani says: Yeah. And Hamza says: The, the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10827 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 more sure -- of course. 2 And Hamza continues at line 22: Tell him that the 3 more he refers to things that would remind us of very specific 4 matters which are difficult to say during investigations. 5 Continuing on page 19 Hani says: Yes, yes, yes. Hamza says: 6 Do you understand? Hani says: Yes, I see. Hamza says: Some 7 things can be mentioned in investigation. He continues: But 8 some things are private and specific. The brother wouldn't 9 need to say them in investigation. Hani says: Yeah, I do 10 understand what you are trying to say. Hamza says: Yeah. 11 Explain this point to him. Tell him the man wants to discuss 12 things with you. And if things are going in a positive 13 direction he will be very understanding. This is due to the 14 sensitivity of the situation. 15 What's going on at this point of the conversation, 16 Mr. Sattar, is that Hamza is telling Hani that he needs Atia to 17 talk with him about the past so that Atia -- so that Mustafa 18 Hamza understands that Atia is not compromised, right? 19 A. No. He is still at this point don't know who Atia is, and 20 he is asking questions. And he wants to know who this man is. 21 He is saying things that he wants to ask about the past. He is 22 telling him to give him specific things so he can understand 23 who this man is and to investigate it with other people that 24 used to be in touch with him. So to get an idea who this man 25 is. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10828 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Right. Who he is, who his friends were, who his contacts 2 were. 3 A. He wants to know -- basically, until this moment, he 4 doesn't know who Atia is. So he is just trying to find out 5 more about him and try to corroborate this with other people 6 who were in touch with him. When he asked him, who was in 7 touch with you, he is not giving him an answer. That's what he 8 wanted to know. 9 Q. He is basically trying to do a background check? 10 A. Yes, he wants to do a background check and see who he is. 11 THE COURT: We have been going for about an hour. Why 12 don't we take a stretch break. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, if you want to take the 14 morning break, we can do that. 15 THE COURT: Fine. 16 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for ten minutes. 17 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 18 don't talk about the case at all. Please always remember to 19 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence and 20 I have instructed you on the law. 21 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 22 the jury room. 23 (Jury not present) 24 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. The jurors had 25 begun to talk and stretch. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10829 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 See you shortly. 2 (Recess) 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10830 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 CF5SAT2 Sattar - cross 2 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 3 Mr. Morvillo? 4 MR. MORVILLO: Do you want me back at the lectern, 5 Judge? 6 (Jury present) 7 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. Mr. Fletcher? 8 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 9 are still under oath. 10 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 13 BY MR. MORVILLO: 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, just to reorient ourselves we were discussing 15 when we broke Government Exhibit 1070X, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. That is the second telephone conversation between Mustafa 18 Hamza and Hani, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I continue displaying 21 pages from this exhibit? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. Displaying page 25 from Government Exhibit 1070X, at line 24 1, Mustafa Hamza says to Hani: I think that now, somehow, the 25 eyes are on you at your side, this can create a problem, but we SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10831 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 are not responsible for this problem. 2 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani is that the 3 government is watching Hani and Atia? 4 A. The Egyptian government, yes. 5 Q. And he continues: To be on the safe side, we need the 6 brother who talks to us to have some kind of affirmation at the 7 beginning of the conversation, through which we know that 8 things are normal for Ismail, Khalaf, Ahmed and even yourself. 9 We must agree on something to be said at the beginning of the 10 conversation that would indicate that all is normal. 11 And he continues at line 9: Or, the other way around, 12 unintelligible, maybe you have a problem and the people are, 13 unintelligible. 14 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani here is that when 15 the next time they speak, at the beginning of the conversation, 16 they should exchange a few words, precise words so that they 17 know that it's okay to talk on the telephone, right? 18 A. Yeah. Nothing happening to, to them; yes, everything is 19 all right with them. 20 Q. And Hani says simultaneously to Hamza: Can you tell me, 21 you tell me if there is anything, you tell. 22 Hamza says: Well, I usually, regarding our brothers, 23 those brothers, Ismail and so are middlemen, there are no talks 24 between us. 25 And Hani says: Yeah. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10832 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And Hamza says: The important people are you and -- 2 Meaning Hani, right? 3 And then he continues: Initially -- 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't -- 5 Q. At line 168 Hamza says the important -- 6 THE COURT: There was a question, but then you 7 continued without an answer. 8 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry. 9 Q. At line 16, Mr. Sattar, Mustafa Hamza says: The important 10 people are you-- 11 And the "you" is Hani, right? 12 A. You; it's Hani and -- 13 Q. Atia? 14 A. These people. I mean, Atia, the people who connect on the 15 phones and who they are just middlemen, they have nothing to do 16 with anything. 17 Q. And Mustafa Hamza says: Initially it is for you for now, 18 we'll arrange things with Hamid when we speak with him. 19 Hamid is Atia, right? 20 A. Yes, that's one of his name, the name that he has been 21 using, yes. 22 Q. And so, what Mustafa Hamza is telling him is the code 23 language that we are going to work out now is just for you, 24 Hani. 25 A. The what language? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10833 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. The Code language. 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That we are going to work out just for now is just for you, 4 Hani, and we'll arrange other language when we speak with 5 Hamid? 6 A. Probably. I'm not, you know -- you know, this whole thing 7 is very confusing so, just go this way, yes. 8 Q. Let's continue reading the transcript then. At line 21 9 Hamza says: Usually when we talk we say, "Peace be upon you," 10 huh? 11 And Hani says: Mmm, okay. 12 And Hamza says: And you say, "Peace be upon you too, 13 Mister," huh? 14 And then Hani says: Okay, yes. 15 Now, turn to the next page, which is page 26 of 16 Government Exhibit 1070X, Hamza says: Look, any change of 17 these words will cause a problem. Huh? 18 And Hani says: Okay. 19 And Hamza says: For example, if you respond, "Peace 20 be upon you too," without saying, "Mister" it means that the 21 conversation will not take place. Do not forget these things, 22 huh? 23 So what Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani, Mr. Sattar, is 24 that next time they talk, if Hani does not say, in response to 25 peace be upon you, he does not say peace be upon you too, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10834 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 mister, it means that they will not talk because it is not safe 2 to talk for some reason? 3 A. Yes, that's what he is saying. 4 Q. And then Hani says: Okay, "Peace be upon you too, Mister." 5 is this only for me only, or for the three others? 6 And Mustafa Hamza says: No, no, it is only for you. 7 The others are middlemen; they say, "Ham..." -- "Hani is 8 present" and that's all. We don't need anything from him to 9 start with. 10 And Hani says: Okay. Okay. 11 Then Hamza says: Something, unintelligible. Let me 12 finish, another point. I can ask you, for instance, "how are 13 you, how are things with you," ha? 14 And Hani says: Ha, ha. 15 Hamza says: You answer, "I am fine, thanks be to 16 God." 17 And then at line 16 Hani responds: I am fine, thanks 18 be to God. 19 And says something unintelligible. At line 19 Hamza 20 says: I am fine, thanks be to God. If you respond, "Thanks be 21 to God" without saying, "I am fine," it will be a problem. 22 Hani says: Mmm. 23 And Hamza says: If you say, "Fine, thanks be to God," 24 it is also a problem, you understand? If you say "I am fine" 25 without "Thanks be to God" it is also a problem. Do you SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10835 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 understand? 2 And so, what they're discussing here is that when they 3 have a conversation at the beginning of a telephone 4 conversation, there are certain words that need to be said to 5 one another precisely as they've just directed so that both 6 parties understand that it's okay to talk, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 27 of Government Exhibit 1070X, at line 17 9 Hamza says: That should be explained to your brother as well, 10 huh? Tell him that the error that occurred in the contact with 11 America, or that might somehow cause you a problem. There is a 12 follow up on everything, we try to rectify as much as we can, 13 may the Lord grant us all that's well, God willing. 14 When Hamza is referring to your brother, what he is 15 referring to is Atia, right? 16 A. Yes. Hani's brother, yes. 17 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 18 at this point Government Exhibit 1072X? 19 THE COURT: Yes. In evidence? 20 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence, yes. 21 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, the first call between Mustafa Hamza and 22 Hani was on April 1st, that one was Government Exhibit 1068; 23 then there was a call between Mustafa Hamza and Hani on April 24 11th, and that's Government Exhibit 1070; and then there was a 25 third call between them on April 18th, right, and that's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10836 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1072X? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you see here I'm displaying the first page of the 4 transcript and this is, again, a telephone conversation between 5 yourself, Mustafa Hamza, Hani, Thabit, now Thabit is the 6 go-between between Salah Hashim and Hani, right? 7 A. Yes, this is what they said in the previous conversation, 8 yes. 9 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 (Counsel conferring) 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, there was a limiting 14 instruction that went along with this telephone conversation in 15 that is that it's offered with respect to Counts Two and Three 16 only. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 (Pause) 21 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, during this conversation on April 18th of 22 2000, Mustafa Hamza spoke with Hani again, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And that conversation starts on page 4 of the transcript; 25 previously Mustafa Hamza had been speaking to an unidentified SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10837 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 male. And at line 9 Hani gets on the telephone and they 2 exchange greetings and Hani gets it wrong, right? At line 13 3 Hani says: Well, thanks be to God. 4 And Hamza says: I am well, and thanks be to God, huh? 5 And Hani says: Well, thanks be to God. 6 And Hamza says to him: No, you should say, I am well 7 and thanks be to God. But that's no problem because it is the 8 first time. 9 Now, this is a reference back to the prior 10 conversation that they had where Hamza and Mustafa -- where 11 Mustafa and Hani are indicating how it is safe to talk? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Hani responds to Mustafa Hamza here by saying: Hi, ha, 14 okay, I am well and thanks be to God. 15 And Hamza says: How is everything with you? 16 And Hani says: Yes, okay. 17 And in this call Hani tells Mustafa Hamza that he has 18 a message from Atia for Mustafa Hamza, right? 19 A. I mean I don't see -- it could be, yes. 20 Q. Displaying page 9 from Government Exhibit 1072X, at line 12 21 right here Hani says: Number seven, he is asking, if he became 22 in a tight spot so could he contact Ahmed and tell him what we 23 need? Is his telephone safe? 24 Now, this is Hani asking Mustafa Hamza if your 25 telephone is safe, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10838 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hamza pauses and then says: I already told you last 3 time, that means you did not tell him, because if you did, you 4 would have known the answer without anyone... you did not 5 relate the talking to him in the right way. 6 And Hani responds: Who? 7 And Hamza says: You did not relate the things I told 8 you to tell him last time. I told you that all the phones are 9 bad. 10 And Hani says: Yes, sir, okay, I did tell him. 11 And Hamza says: What is this? You were supposed to 12 tell him everything I told you. I told you to explain to him 13 that you may face a problem soon which will be caused by 14 messing with the phones. 15 And then, continuing on the next page Hani says: I 16 told him everything, by God. Okay, fine. 17 Then Hamza continues: Why are you asking me this 18 question then? This question is totally uncalled for. Go 19 ahead. Continue. 20 Hamza is mad at Hani here, right? 21 A. He is telling him, you know, that the part you read in the 22 previous conversation, he was telling him the phones are bad, 23 you know, so he is just, you know, telling him that he did not 24 understand, you know, what I said. 25 So I don't know if he is mad or not mad. He is just, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10839 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you know, telling him that you did not say what I told you, 2 what I told you to say. 3 Q. Right. Because what happens is Atia asks Hani to ask 4 Mustafa Hamza is it okay to call Ahmed -- meaning you -- 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And Mustafa Hamza is annoyed because he told Hani to tell 7 Atia previously all the phones are bad? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Displaying page 12 from Government Exhibit 1072X, Hani 10 gives Mustafa Hamza another telephone number that he can use to 11 contact people and Hamza says: Okay. 12 And that's at line 9 and 10. And then at line 11 Hani 13 says: You tell him I am Dr. Ahmad from Qena, since one of his 14 colleagues is in Qena, okay, who is the partner of Dr. Mohammed 15 Abu Ahmad in the pharmacy. 16 Hamza says: What? 17 Hani says: You tell him I am Dr. Ahmad. 18 And Hamza says: Ahmad. 19 And Hani says: We'll call him so you could. 20 And what they're talking about here is when Mustafa 21 Hamza calls the telephone number he shouldn't say that he is 22 Abu Hazim or Mustafa Hamza, he should say it is Dr. Ahmad? 23 A. He is giving him another telephone number with other people 24 and, yes, that is basically what he is saying. 25 Q. Now, further on in this conversation Mustafa Hamza and Hani SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10840 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 continue to talk about how to have a, to converse over the 2 telephone and how to send messages to one another that the 3 telephone line is safe to speak on, right? 4 A. I don't have the conversation in front of me. 5 Q. Displaying page 20 of Government Exhibit 1072X, at line 2 6 Mustafa Hamza says: It is even better to find a number on 7 which we could contact him and we could talk to him about those 8 vague matters, huh? 9 Then Hani says: So the second point is that the 10 sentence is what? 11 And Hamza says: I am going to dictate it for you now. 12 And that's line 7, he says let me dictate it now. And 13 Hani says: Listen to me, listen. Onto his phone, his regular 14 phone number at home. 15 And Hamza says: Yes, on the regular calls. It is 16 important to mention to us this sentence. 17 And Hani says: Okay, fine. 18 And Hamza says: He has to utter it in full, each 19 word, word by word, huh? 20 And Hani says: Okay, but say it slowly. 21 Hamza says: It is a simple one. It is four to five 22 words, it is not going to be a problem, easy, huh? Okay? 23 And at line 18 he says: Okay? Did you understand the 24 idea? The idea is that first you find a telephone number where 25 he could wait for us in a specific time, this is better, and it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10841 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 is going to solve us a big problem, if God is willing. 2 And then he continues at line 22: If he can't do that 3 and the situation does not permit -- 4 Continuing on the next page Hamza says: The second 5 option is to use this sentence, which will give indications 6 that the line is good. You know, and let's hope for the best, 7 okay? 8 And so, again, what they're talking about is when they 9 speak on the phone they have to use this sentence that Mustafa 10 Hamza is about to give to Hani and that will be an indication 11 that the telephone line is okay to speak on? 12 A. This is what they are saying or what Yunis is saying there, 13 yes. 14 Q. And Hamza says at line 5: Write down the following 15 sentence. 16 And at line 7 he says: The upper Egyptians will soon 17 go on the internet. 18 And Hani says: One more time, please, from the 19 beginning. 20 And Hamza says: The upper Egyptians soon will go on 21 the internet... 22 And Hani says: Okay, fine. 23 And Hamza says: That is all, huh? 24 And Hani says: Okay. 25 Did I read that right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10842 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, you did. 2 Q. Now, later in the telephone call on page 25 at line 14 here 3 Mustafa Hamza says: Okay, good, no problem. This is a summary 4 of what we are thinking about. We could now be able to send 5 about two thousand dollars. Eh... the names are not a 6 matter... we are going to send to the man but if there is a 7 problem concerning him... give us a man without... dealing in 8 the specific things, we need a man without any problems around 9 his name. Meaning, he does not care from where it 10 (unintelligible)... by whose name. I mean I will tell you the 11 name of the sender is so and so. 12 And then at line 23 he continues, Mustafa Hamza 13 continues and says: In the end, we will avoid any problems 14 from both sides, for him, or for us. You should give us a name 15 of a person whose name will not create any problems when it 16 comes to receiving the money. 17 And so, what Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani here is 18 that is he going to send $2,000 to Hani and Atia to another 19 person and he wants to make sure that the person he is sending 20 the money to doesn't have any problems with the government, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. At page 27 of Government Exhibit 1072X, starting at line 3 24 Mustafa Hamza says: It must be it must be an agreement between 25 us and Abu Nadhara, do you understand? So if anyone else SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10843 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 besides myself talks to you, Abu Nadhara has to be the main 2 part of the matter, okay? For example, if someone calls from 3 you outside -- 4 And he continues at line 8: Anyone -- 5 Hani says: Yes. 6 Hamza says: Anyone, no matter who he is, okay? 7 And Hamza continues: For example, he would tell you, 8 "by God, we want, tell your man that we want to do something or 9 so." That is considered nothing and it has no value, huh? 10 Okay? 11 And then Hani says, at line 15: What is it going to 12 be of substance? 13 A. When is? 14 Q. And Hamza says: It is considered of substance only if it 15 is coming from me directly, or through Abu Nadhara. Other than 16 that, do not accept any word from anyone, no matter who he is. 17 Any other person's words are not acceptable. 18 What Mustafa Hamza is telling Hani to tell Atia is 19 that Atia should not deal with anyone from the Islamic Group 20 other than Mustafa Hamza, right? 21 A. Other than Mustafa Hamza and Salah Hashim. He says, you 22 know, it is -- don't, you know, listen to anybody except Salah 23 Hashim and Mustafa Hamza. 24 Q. Right. He is saying you take orders from me, right? 25 A. No. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10844 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You take orders from me and not from anyone else? 2 A. I'm not sure this is saying, you know, take orders, he 3 says -- 4 Q. Let's look at line 12 and we can talk about that. 5 It says: For example, he would tell you -- 6 And the "he" is the someone who is calling who is not 7 Mustafa Hamza -- 8 "By God! We want, tell your man that we want to do 9 something or so." That is considered nothing and it has no 10 value, huh? 11 Line 16: It is considered of substance only if it is 12 coming from me directly. Do not accept any word from anyone, 13 no matter who he is. 14 A. He is telling him don't accept anything from anyone except 15 him and Salah Hashim. 16 Q. And he repeats this advice on the next page, which is page 17 28 of Government Exhibit 1072X, starting at line 6, Hamza says: 18 Okay, give me some... I tell you, it is difficult on me too. 19 It is not easy for me. It is very important to me that 20 Mr. Hamid comes and understands that. Tell him these matters 21 are extremely sensitive now. Tell him if anyone from outside 22 the specified circle, no matter who he is, and my words are 23 clear, I am saying anyone who talks to him from outside the 24 circle, no matter who he is, he is not to listen to him. Do 25 you understand? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10845 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And Hani says: Yes, sir. 2 Hamza says: For example, someone comes and says to 3 you, I am going to send you money, and you could do things, and 4 so. Tell him... tell him eh... we don't, I don't take orders 5 from anyone. Do you understand? 6 And Hani says: Yes, I do, very much so. 7 Mustafa Hamza is continuing to tell Hani here at this 8 point of the conversation you only talk to me and Abu Nadhara, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. And Salah Hashim, yes. 11 Q. Salah Hashim. 12 And Salah Hashim and Abu Nadhara are the same person? 13 A. He is Abu Nadhara, yes. 14 Q. And displaying page 29 of Government Exhibit 1072X, he 15 continues to talk about this subject, right, and he says, from 16 line 9 Hamza says: I shall give you an example. A Sheikh so 17 and so, one of the Sheikh outside, Sheikh so and so, he tells 18 you, here is the situation, the brothers... the 19 circumstances... and we will send you something and we want you 20 to do things... you tell him, frankly, we don't accept what you 21 say, huh? 22 That's the same subject matter they're talking about, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 If I may add, he is just basically, you know, telling SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10846 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 him to find the line where the group is at, going at. 2 Q. He is telling him you are not to listen to anyone else from 3 the Islamic Group who talks to you, right? 4 A. No one else beside him and -- 5 Q. Salah Hashim? 6 A. Salah Hashim, yes. 7 Q. Now, there came a time when Mustafa Hamza and Atia actually 8 finally spoke, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And that was over your telephone as well? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 13 Exhibit 1075X, in evidence? 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. MORVILLO: And, your Honor, this has the same 16 limiting instruction as previously. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 Q. This is a conversation on April 24th? 19 THE COURT: And ladies and gentlemen, you are to 20 follow the same limiting instruction. It is admitted only with 21 respect to Counts Two and Three. 22 All right, go ahead. 23 Q. And just so we orient ourselves here, Mr. Sattar, the prior 24 conversation was on April 18th of 2000? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10847 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And now this one is a few days later on April 24th of 2000, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And, again, what happened here is that Mustafa Hamza called 5 you, you spoke to Mustafa Hamza, and then you called Egypt and 6 you connected in Hani, Dr. Ismail and Atia, all of whom were 7 together? 8 A. Yes. Yunis called and I connected him on three-way calling 9 to Hani, Dr. Ismail. 10 Q. And Dr. Ismail was the person who was receiving the money, 11 right? 12 A. Dr. Ismail actually, he is the one where the phone is. I 13 wasn't -- my understanding that was his apartment where they 14 were calling. 15 Q. Did you know where the apartment was? 16 A. No. 17 Q. It was in Egypt but you didn't know where? 18 A. It was in Egypt. I don't know where it was exactly but, 19 you know, I know it was in Egypt. 20 Q. Was it in Cairo? 21 A. No, it was in a different -- a different city. 22 Q. Do you know what city? Do you know which city? 23 A. From what I -- I -- I think it is in, they are talking 24 there about Salah Hashim so I could, you know, I could make up 25 things, you know, that it is in the same city where Salah SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10848 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Hashim is. 2 Q. Which is in Suhaj? 3 A. Suhaj, yes. 4 But they never actually told me, or, you know, said 5 where it is. 6 Q. And sometimes Salah Hashim is referred to as the Engineer 7 of Suhaj, correct? 8 A. Yes, so that's why I -- that was my assumption so there is 9 nothing concrete, you know, that I can say, yes, it was that 10 city or this city. 11 Q. You couldn't tell by the area code that you were dialing or 12 anything like that? 13 A. No. I am from Cairo so I really don't know much about 14 other parts of Egypt. 15 Q. Now, displaying page 7 of Government Exhibit 1075X, this is 16 where Atia and Mustafa Hamza are speaking. And starting at 17 line 11 Mustafa Hamza says: But the phones are, eh, I am 18 talking to you because the phones are not, eh... there is a 19 problem, of course, you know. At the beginning, it was a 20 connection with a certain line. Anyway, I am apprehensive, I 21 am a little apprehensive and I want you to take care of that. 22 And Atia responds: Regarding our situation, we don't 23 have any problems because, uh, we call from the street and -- 24 And then Mustafa Hamza responds saying: The problem 25 is that the number was given to a brother of ours over the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10849 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 phone. I mean, I am apprehensive. 2 What they're talking about here is, again, a reference 3 back to the fact that Salah Hashim gave Hani your telephone 4 number and then you called Salah Hashim and asked him if they 5 did that, right? 6 A. I'm not quite sure what they're talking about here exactly, 7 whose telephone number, it is a little -- let me just take a 8 look at it. 9 I am not sure if the brother here is Salah Hashim or 10 me or somebody else. I'm not quite sure, you know, who they 11 are referring -- who he is here referring to exactly here to. 12 Q. But the sentiment that is he trying to convey is that there 13 is a problem because they, the state security spoke to Salah 14 Hashim and they're concerned about the telephones and so we 15 should try to find another way to talk, right? 16 A. No. He is emphasizing that there is problems as what he 17 said before and that there is a problem with the phones. 18 Q. At line 20 Mustafa Hamza continues and says: But apply 19 caution and we will try to find a way out from the circle where 20 the phone calls were made. 21 And that circle is a reference to the telephones that 22 were used to initially get in touch with Atia and Mustafa 23 Hamza, right? 24 He continues -- 25 A. I am not, you know, sure. You know, he just wants to get SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10850 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 out of phones, talking on the phones. That's what he -- he 2 doesn't like, you know, the phone thing as what he said before. 3 Q. Right, but what he is saying is that, in particular, the 4 phones that we are speaking over these days I'm not comfortable 5 with, we should try to find other telephones. Right? 6 A. I'm not sure if he is saying that. 7 Q. Well, he continues and at line 22 he says: It will be good 8 if God grants us find a way to get out of it, that will be much 9 better, God willing. Because I am not at ease concerning all 10 those telephone numbers that were given out during the previous 11 calls, huh? 12 And at line 26 Atia responds: But there is a 13 possibility that the phone numbers, at the beginning, were 14 written in a certain way we had formerly agreed upon. 15 And so he is trying to reassure Mustafa Hamza that the 16 phones are okay, right? 17 A. No, he is talking here about something that, you know, you 18 know, in the beginning, I don't know what he means by the 19 beginning, the past period that they were in touch with each 20 other. 21 I really don't know what they are saying in there. 22 Q. And Mustafa Hamza says at the beginning of the next page: 23 Well, of course the brother is not to blame, the brother passed 24 the phone numbers in a straightforward way. The brother is -- 25 And Atia responds: No, no. He did not pass them, no. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10851 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 He asked us to provide him with the correct numbers. We first 2 sent them to him in a certain way. If someone is listening, he 3 wouldn't understand a thing. But he said, we don't know 4 anything about this, we need details, and so, tsk, we need an 5 explicit something while we were. 6 So, what Atia is saying, the way the original 7 telephones phone numbers were originally passed, whatever way 8 that happens they were passed in a specific way so that if 9 anyone was listening -- anyone meaning the government -- they 10 wouldn't understand what the telephone number was? 11 A. This is what he said in there. 12 Q. On page 11 the conversation between Atia and Hamza is 13 continuing and at line 23 Hamza says: Yes, I understand. I 14 just want to say that you should not be preoccupied with any 15 feud anyway. The important thing is the general policy. All 16 the people agreed on a general policy; you should not follow 17 the deviant, whoever he is, Abu Yasir, Sheikh Abu Nadhara, 18 Mr. so and so. You have nothing to do with them, huh? You 19 must follow the deviant [sic] this is the important thing in 20 this respect. 21 Again, this is Mustafa Hamza telling Atia don't listen 22 to anybody but me, essentially. Right? 23 A. No. He is saying he must follow the general policy of the 24 Islamic Group, which was the peace initiative, must follow 25 this. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10852 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 If there is anybody who is trying to deviate from 2 this, whether he is Abu Yasir or Salah Hashim, Abu Nadhara, 3 don't listen to anybody, you must follow the general policy, 4 even if the deviant himself would be Yunis. Just, you know, 5 follow the general policy. 6 That's what he is saying. 7 Q. And he names Abu Yasir as the deviant, right? 8 A. Yes, no, it was just an expression. The deviant. The 9 deviant could be Mr. So. The deviant could be Mr. So, the 10 deviant could be Abu Yasir. The deviant could be Salah Hashim. 11 The deviant could be anybody. 12 That's what he was referring -- this is what I 13 understand him saying. 14 Q. But in fact the deviant was Abu Yasir, right? 15 A. But in fact the deviant was Abu Yasir? I don't know if he 16 was a deviant. I know he had a different point of view. 17 Q. They continue speaking on page 12 and Hamza says to him: 18 Do you understand as well? 19 And Atia says: Frankly, speaking, can we move to a 20 different topic and we leave this one for now? 21 And Hamza says: Do you understand this well, this is 22 a basic issue, it is the core of things, huh? 23 And Atia says, after a brief pause: Okay, can I just 24 know with who I am speaking? 25 And Hamza says: Didn't I tell you? The problem is... SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10853 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 you are going to waste... didn't you request to talk to 2 someone? Haven't you sent a request to talk to specific 3 people? 4 At this point in the conversation Atia and Mustafa 5 Hamza -- Atia is questioning who Mustafa Hamza is, right? 6 A. Atia doesn't know who he is talking to and Mustafa Hamza 7 still don't know who he is talking to. 8 Q. And Atia says, we were expecting to talk to the person that 9 used to talk to us before. This is what we requested. 10 Then Hamza says after a pause: When was the last time 11 you spoke to him? 12 And Atia says: It was... um... since '96. 13 Hamza says: From '96. Had you been talking to Abu 14 Yasir or eh. 15 And Abu Yasir is Rifa'i Taha, right? 16 A. Yes, and he is saying of course not. 17 Q. And he says: Of course not. 18 And Hamza says: Huh? 19 And Atia says: Not specifically. 20 Hamza says: Huh? 21 Atia says: Not specifically, but almost. 22 Is that right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. At page 17 of Government Exhibit 1075X, they continue 25 talking and Atia says to Mustafa Hamza: Okay, sir. Let me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10854 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 tell you something. As for me, myself, since I... since, I 2 mean since I started working -- 3 And Hamza says: Yes. 4 And by "working" you understand that he is referring 5 to since he was involved in the Islamic Group, right? 6 A. Yes; from what he is saying. 7 Q. Atia continues and says: There was no information about me 8 whatsoever. Nobody knows this piece of information except for 9 the man who used to talk to me. And no one else, such as 10 someone who was with me then got caught, not at all of that 11 sort happened. Nothing could have given them indications about 12 this particular information. 13 And Hamza says: But what is this piece of 14 information? Explain it to me so I can follow up with you on 15 the situation. What is it exactly? 16 And Atia says: The information which came? 17 Hamza says: The information which was broadcast, as 18 long as it was already broadcast I want to understand what it 19 is. Wasn't it already broadcast and you said that you heard it 20 yourself, huh? 21 Atia says: Yeah Hamza says what is it? 22 Atia says: It said that after uh... it was said that 23 during a meeting of the board and so -- 24 Hamza: Ah. 25 Atia, eh, Mr. So and so was appointed as Farid's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10855 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 replacement. 2 Farid is a reference to Farid Kidwani, right? 3 A. I believe Farid is Farid. It could be Farid Kidwani, yes. 4 Q. Well, you understood that this was a reference to the fact 5 that Atia was replacing Farid Kidwani as the military leader of 6 the Islamic Group in Egypt, right? 7 A. From what I see here the whole thing is a joke to me. Here 8 is the Islamic Group leader Mustafa Hamza and the other leader 9 Rifa'i Taha and the military leader of the Islamic Group and he 10 doesn't know -- the leaders don't know who he is, he doesn't 11 know who hired him. He is asking them. They don't know what 12 this is going on. 13 This goes to what I was saying, it was a whole 14 dysfunction body. This is what Islamic Group came to. He 15 didn't know -- nobody knows who is he no more. 16 This is what I understand from this conversation. 17 Q. Right, but what Atia was saying was that he heard a report 18 that he was appointed as the leader, the military leader of the 19 groupand, and that he wanted to find out how this information 20 was leaked, right? 21 A. No. He heard a report or he read a report or heard it on 22 the radio what was said and it said that he was appointed the 23 Islamic Group military leader and he wants to find out if this 24 is trueand. And is he asking Yunis or Mustafa Hamza, as you 25 say, Mr. Morvillo, Mustafa Hamza is the leader of the Islamic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10856 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Group and he doesn't even know. 2 Rifa'i Taha doesn't even know who he, Atia, so it is 3 just -- the whole thing to me, you know, I mean, it was a joke 4 right there. 5 Q. Right. But Mustafa Hamza was one of the leaders outside of 6 Egypt, right? He was in Afghanistan? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Displaying page 18, at line 18 there Hamza says: Ahand. 9 And Atia says: Muntasir commented on this and said 10 that this is... this is... he did not deny it but he said that 11 these are some disagreements inside the company and so. 12 The company is a reference to the Islamic Group, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And Hamza says: Do you have an idea about the date of 16 publication of this report? 17 And Atia responds: Around 9/30 or the 29th. 18 And that's September 30th or September 29th of 1999? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And Farid Kidwani was killed in early September of 1999, 21 right? 22 A. I'm not sure the date exactly but, you know, he was killed 23 around the, you know, in '99. 24 Q. He was killed -- 25 A. I mean, you probably are more sure about the date than me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10857 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 so you know, if you say he was killed around that time so he 2 was killed around that time. 3 Q. He was killed prior to the September '99 prison visit, 4 right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so Atia says, continuing at line 23: I heard it was 7 the 30th but it could have been issued the 28th or the 29th. 8 And Hamza says: Is it 9/30/99? 9 And then, continuing over onto the next page, Atia 10 says: Yes. Plus I heard it on the voice of Israel about 11:00 11 o'clock. 12 What's the Voice of Israel, Mr. Sattar? 13 A. It is a radio station like the Voice of America that 14 broadcast in Arabic throughout the Arab world. 15 Q. So, what he is saying is that he heard the fact that he had 16 been named as the military leader of the Islamic Group 17 broadcast over the Voice of Israel at some point? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Then just a few pages later in the transcript at page 22 of 20 Government Exhibit 1075X, starting at line 20and -- and you 21 testified about this on your direct examination, if I recall 22 correctly, right -- Atia says: No, no, regarding us -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, there was a question but no 24 answer. 25 A. Yes, I did. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10858 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Atia says: No, no. Regarding us... regarding usand. 2 And Hamza says: Yesand. 3 And Atia says: The big matter. 4 And Hamza says: Yes. 5 And Atia says: The big matter -- 6 And Hamza says: Yes. Again. 7 And Atia says: Understand? The big matter -- 8 Hamza says: Yes. 9 Atia says: -- was a reason for what happenedand. 10 And Hamza says: Yes. 11 Atia says: From the beginning, of course... you must 12 have known by now, that we did the big matter on our own, we 13 had no link to anybody and nobody told us anything. 14 The big matter, in your understanding, is a reference 15 to the Luxor massacre, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And so what Atia is telling Mustafa Hamza is that he was 18 involved -- he, Atia -- was involved in the Luxor massacre? 19 A. He is referring to the "we" so it is probably included 20 other people, yes. 21 Q. At line 11 Atia continues and says: Our goal from the 22 beginning was to achieve what happened based on the thought we 23 were raised to have, meaning, this is our best. 24 And Hamza responds saying: Well, you are right. 25 Atia says: We are, eh, we are here to obey. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10859 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 And then there is an unintelligible. 2 Hamza says: We are very appreciative of that. All 3 the people are appreciative. I mean to say that people are 4 very much in appreciation of that. 5 Atia says: That's fine, no more. But, eh, do not 6 ever think that we might get scared or so. It will never 7 happen, God willing. 8 A. Can you repeat that line again, please? 9 Q. I'm sorry, line 19? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Do you see where he says "scared"? 12 A. Yes, that's fine. No more. Yes. 13 Q. And then Mustafa Hamza says: This is the most important 14 thing in the entire matter. The most important issue is to 15 keep the general frame, huh, this is the most important thing. 16 And gradually, God may open a door for us to exit from, eh, 17 what had occurred over the phone lines, someone can travel, 18 another can come over... you know, better opportunities will 19 present itself, huh? 20 And then on the next page Atia continues or responds 21 and says: Anyway, I am very ready for it, with very little 22 help, I am more than ready for that matter. 23 Did I read that right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And then on page 25 of Government Exhibit 1075X, starting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10860 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 at line 8, Mustafa Hamza says: So we can talk with Amer, but 2 once more, I would like to deal in total anonymity. I am not 3 going to say my name over the phone. Because of the 4 sensitivity of the matter... uh, but I am going to try to have 5 Amer... I mean to solve Amer's issue. Maybe we'll be able to 6 come out with a better understanding and you can communicate 7 with these people in a better way, God willing. 8 Atia responds by saying: God willing. 9 And Hamza says: Just as a starter, we sent $2,000 to 10 the Doctor, by you, just as a starter. 11 Again, Mr. Sattar, the doctor was a reference to 12 Dr. Ismail? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. "This is until we see how things will go. If things go 15 smoothly, that's fine, if you want to keep going and his 16 circumstances permit, that will be good." 17 So, Mustafa Hamza is saying is he is going to send 18 $2,000 or they sent $2,000 to Atia and that if things work out 19 they'll continue to send him money, if they can? 20 A. Yes, if he received that money with no problems, if things 21 worked out, you know, it will, he will probably continue 22 sending money to the people there. 23 Q. And then at line 19 Atia says: Okay. Anyway, we are going 24 to take from this amount -- 25 And from this amount he is referring to the $2,000, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10861 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 right? 2 A. I'm sorry? 3 Q. From, what he says, from this amount, we are going to take 4 from this amount? 5 A. Yes, the $2,000. Yes. 6 Q. Half of the expenses, and then we'll -- then he asks a 7 question: What do you think if we use half of the money to 8 purchase a mobile. 9 He is talking about a mobile telephone, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And so, it was your understanding that Atia was thinking of 12 using some of the money that Mustafa Hamza sent him to buy a 13 cell phone, basically, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 He wants to be like everybody else. You know, in 16 Egypt at the time it was -- it was a hot thing, you know, 17 everybody wants to buy a mobile phone in Egypt at the time, you 18 know. It was a big thing in the area, yes. 19 Q. Displaying page 31 of Government Exhibit 1075X, at line 8 20 Mustafa Hamza says: Therefore, there is no need to purchase 21 things; and through the purchase he gets a clueand, and through 22 the clue he... no, keep it 'til we evaluate our situation. If 23 our Lord facilitates things and a re-evaluation is achieved 24 considering the people's circumstances and so, we will have 25 joint coordination. If you happen to travel or so, we are SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10862 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 going to precisely understand the situation, the capacity and 2 circumstances, huh. I mean, together, we arrange things. 3 And Atia says: Sir, let me tell you about something. 4 Regarding -- 5 And he continues at line 17: Regarding the purchase 6 of certain things. To start with, we don't need anything of 7 that sort. 8 They're talking about weapons, right? 9 A. I believe so, yes. He is talking about things, you know, 10 that they had. He says -- you know, I mean, if you go back to 11 the conversation, the whole thing you know, they are talking 12 about the general policy of the Islamic Group and he is 13 talking -- I understand he is talking purchase of certain 14 things could be weapons, yes. 15 Q. And Atia says: We have enough. 16 And then Mustafa Hamza says: That is fine. No need 17 then to open new doors, in order to avoid any thread of 18 evidence, huh? 19 And so what Mustafa Hamza is telling him is you don't 20 need to go out and buy more weapons to, because that might draw 21 attention to you. Is that right? 22 A. He is telling him, you know, I mean, if you go to the part 23 that you read before, you will see that he is talking when he 24 says, you know, that we, you know, he is not scared, he is 25 not -- he is following the general policyand. And Mustafa SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10863 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Hamza is telling him that he appreciates that. 2 So, Mustafa Hamza is telling him, you know, there is 3 no need to buy anything because, basically, the general policy 4 of the Islamic Group is the peace initiative. 5 Q. Well, actually that's not what he is saying, is it? What 6 he is saying is: That's fine. No need to open new doors in 7 order to avoid any threat of evidence. 8 Right? 9 A. You cannot just isolate this words here from the old 10 alliance that you just escaped and just, you know, kept reading 11 and just went on without my explaining what goes on there. 12 This goes with context of that conversation the way I 13 understand it. 14 Q. But they're talking about the purchase of weapons, right? 15 A. He is telling him don't buy weapons. 16 Q. And for whatever reason, don't buy weapons? 17 A. He is telling him don't. Yes. 18 Q. And Atia says, that's okay because we already have them, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. If you are from upper Egypt you will know that every 21 single person there is, has a weapon. It is not a problem to 22 have a weapon in upper Egypt. It is part of the culture there. 23 Once a child reaches certain age, you know, he will 24 walk with a Kalashnikov AK-47. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I object. I move to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10864 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 strike. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar I -- 4 THE WITNESS: I did not finish. 5 THE COURT: Oh, but the answer was finished. 6 Go ahead. Go ahead 7 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 8 Q. My question was, he told Mustafa Hamza that he already had 9 weapons, right? 10 A. That's what he is saying there, yes. 11 Q. At page 38 of Government Exhibit 1075X Mustafa Hamza says: 12 Of course, you understand through Abu Nadhara that Sheikh Abu 13 Yasir represents eh... eh... he represents some kind of 14 instability until now, do you get it? Huh? 15 And Atia says: Okay. 16 Did I read that right? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I'm going to move on to 19 another transcript, did you want to take another break this 20 morning? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for 10 minutes. 23 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk about 24 the case, keep an open mind. 25 All rise, please. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10865 4CFMSAT1 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Sattar may step down. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 4 (Recess) 5 (Continued on next page) 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10866 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 2 MR. MORVILLO: May I go to the lectern, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes, please. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, you want to break around 5 12:45? 6 THE COURT: Around then. Whenever Mr. Fletcher 7 indicates that the lunch is here. 8 (Jury present) 9 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 10 Mr. Fletcher. 11 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 12 still under oath. 13 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 15 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 16 Your Honor may I display to the jury Government 17 Exhibit 1078X in evidence? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this also has a limiting 20 instruction. 21 THE COURT: And the limiting instruction is that it is 22 received solely with respect to Counts 2 and 3, yes? 23 MR. MORVILLO: Yes, your Honor. I believe the full 24 limiting instruction is it is received solely with respect with 25 respect to Counts 2 and 3 and not with respect to any of the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10867 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 2 THE COURT: The jury is directed to follow that 3 instruction. 4 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1075X, the one very long 5 transcript between Mr. Mustafa Hamza and Atia that we were just 6 discussing before the break is a telephone call that occurred 7 on April 24, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Do you recall that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. When that call ended, you had a separate conversation with 12 Mustafa Hamza, right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And that's reflected in Government Exhibit 1078X? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Which is also on April 24, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. After your greetings you say to him at line 5: Yes, it is 19 okay. The thing I want to say to you, God willing, when he 20 calls him again. And Mr. Hamza says: Please go ahead. You 21 say: Tell him to take the cellular phone off his head. Hamza 22 says: Oh, no, no, it is a bad idea, yeah. You say: No. It 23 is very -- I mean the people there don't understand this. It 24 is extremely dangerous. 25 What you're referring to is the fact that you don't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10868 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 want Atia to buy a cell phone? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That's because you heard him say in the conversation that 4 we just read a moment ago that he was going to use half the 5 money that Mr. Mustafa Hamza was sending him to buy a mobile, 6 right. 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Abu Hamza says at line 9: No. No. It is a bad idea. 9 And Mr. Hamza at line 12 says: Dangerous, right? And you say: 10 Yeah. It is very dangerous. I mean, it is much easier than, 11 than, than. And continuing on to page 2: Than the land line 12 by far. 13 Basically what you're telling him, aren't you, 14 Mr. Sattar, is that it is much easier to put a wiretap on a 15 cell phone than on a land line? 16 A. It is much easier to be intercepted, yes. I mean, what -- 17 yeah, it is much easier to be intercepted. 18 Q. In fact, that's what you say on the next line. I mean, 19 whatever I -- whatever it receives and sends can always be 20 intercepted. Hamza says: Easy right away. You say yeah right 21 away. At line 8. You say: I mean they eh -- I mean spoke to 22 Mr. Muntasir about this subject. I don't know. He does not 23 want to be convinced. 24 When you say Mr. Muntasir, you're referring to 25 Muntasir Al-Zayyat? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10869 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. I used to speak to Muntasir Al-Zayyat on the phone 2 and he has always called me on his cell phone. That's why we 3 spoke on some of his conversations -- 4 Q. During some of those telephone conversations with Muntasir 5 Al-Zayyat you told him, don't use a cell phone -- 6 A. I did not tell him don't use a cell phone. It was just a 7 conversation to that effect. It was just, you know, about the 8 cell phones in general. 9 Q. In other words, what you're saying is, you didn't advise 10 Muntasir Al-Zayyat not to use a cell phone; you just discussed 11 with him the fact that they were easier to intercept? 12 A. I don't remember that I advised him, don't use your cell 13 phone, no. 14 Q. When you said in line 8, I even spoke to Mr. Muntasir about 15 this subject, I don't know, he does not want to be convinced, 16 what you're saying is is the subject of the fact that cell 17 phones can be easily intercepted? 18 A. That cell phones are, yes. 19 Q. At line 11 you say: I don't know, to be honest, and Hamza 20 says: It is a big problem. And then you say: I mean, there 21 is an impression, a grave impression in Egypt that this 22 telephone is safe. It is not unintelligible. And then you 23 change the subject, right, and you say you want to try to get 24 this boss, God willing. 25 That's right, you were changing the subject, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10870 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. We were talking about the phone and he wanted to call 2 somebody else, so -- 3 Q. So you said, you want me to get this other person for you? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1083X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this transcript also has 9 that same limiting instruction. 10 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, you are to follow 11 the same limiting instruction. This is received only with 12 respect to Counts 2 and 3 and not for the truth of any of the 13 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. It 14 cannot be considered for the truth of any of the matters 15 asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 16 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, during this time period you recall that 17 you had been out of touch with Abu Yasir? 18 A. During that period? 19 Q. This time period that we have been discussing this 20 morning -- I'm sorry, from the spring of 2000, late winter, 21 spring of 2000, you had been out of touch with Abu Yasir? 22 A. I believe, yes, he was out of touch for a few months. I am 23 not quite sure, two months, a month, three months, but for a 24 period of time, yes. 25 Q. And displaying Government Exhibit 1083X, this is a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10871 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 telephone conversation between you and Rifa'i Taha, Abu Yasir, 2 on May 9 of 2000, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And after you exchanged greetings at line 8 you say: We 5 miss you, or should I say we long for you or eh, how do they 6 say that in Upper Egypt? And he laughs. And you say: How is 7 it going? He says: We are fine. And then you said: Thank 8 God. You made us worry about you, man. And he says: May God 9 reward you. No. Thank God we were just fine. Then you say: 10 Thank God, thank God. I swear we were counting the days and 11 asking when will this Sheikh call us. 12 So this is you referring to the fact that you had been 13 out of touch with him for a little while? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It is fair to say that it is the first call you had with 16 Rifa'i Taha in at least several weeks? 17 A. Yes. The nice person that I am, I'm just using -- being 18 nice with him. 19 Q. Displaying page 3 of this transcript, Rifa'i Taha says at 20 line 14: We received an account number (sic) of a man by you, 21 but we don't know how to reach him later on it. And you said: 22 How come? And he says: Ah. You say: Okay, oh, yeah, yeah, 23 eh, eh, eh, no. It is by appointment. Taha says: By 24 appointment ah? You say: Yes by appointment. Then-Taha says: 25 Okay then. We will try to agree on something later, God SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10872 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 willing. 2 Then on the next page the conversation continues in 3 this area and you say: God willing, you just tell me, I mean 4 eh. And Taha says: When I need him and -- and you say: When 5 you need him, at the time you, at, at, at, at the time you ah. 6 And he says okay. You said: God willing, we will ask him to 7 look into this matter. 8 What are you talking about here? 9 A. I'm talking about the telephone number. 10 Q. Whose? 11 A. Nabil Elmasry. 12 Q. You were trying to put Rifa'i Taha in touch with Nabil 13 Elmasry? 14 A. He was asking for a telephone number beside my phone 15 number, so I give him Nabil's telephone number and I said, 16 here, you know, here it is. 17 Q. And the reason why you understood you wanted to talk with 18 Nabil Elmasry was because he wanted someone else to be in touch 19 with in the United States? 20 A. He wanted to be in touch with somebody else. The people 21 were questioning my credibility, me, saying this guy, you know 22 wouldn't know who he is. You know, I mean, I mean, things that 23 I speak about the Sheikh, I speak on behalf of the Sheikh. And 24 I said, you know, this is the telephone number for this man. 25 He worked with the Sheikh. And if anybody wants to ask SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10873 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 anything, they can quote him. 2 Q. Nabil Elmasry was another one of the Sheikh's paralegals? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. At line 9 you say to him: Yes. Chief, he is mostly 5 available on either Monday or Tuesday. I mean, possibly three 6 to four hours before that. So what you were referring to is 7 the fact that Nabil Elmasry was generally available to speak 8 with him on Mondays or Tuesdays, right? 9 A. I am probably saying that, yes. 10 Q. And then at line 16 you say: Yes. But it is important to 11 inform him ahead of time, or to tell him before, I mean. God 12 willing. 13 And, again, what you're referring to is he has got to 14 make arrangements to speak with Nabil Elmasry before he calls? 15 A. To be honest with you, I am not quite sure that what even I 16 told you before it was of Nabil Elmasry. I'm just assuming 17 here. I'm just going through the call. Can I see the whole 18 call, please, just to know what I'm talking about here? 19 Q. This is actually what I have just shown you is the entire 20 discussion of this topic. 21 A. This is it? 22 Q. Yup. 23 A. I really don't know exactly what I'm talking about here. I 24 was assuming that I give him the number of Nabil Elmasry 25 because it was at the time it was just said, you know, that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10874 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 there was something about people saying that he is -- we don't 2 know who this guy is. And I said this is a number for Nabil 3 Elmasry. He work for the Sheikh. I believe I give him the 4 number for Nabil Elmasry. This specific conversation, I don't 5 know what I'm talking about here. 6 Q. Did you give him the telephone numbers of anyone else in 7 the United States? 8 A. I did give him the number of Yousef Odeh that I used to 9 work with -- I mean, I worked with him in the formula business 10 and I was spending a lot of time with him. 11 Q. Right. And he is the person that -- whose cell phone you 12 had those conversations on with Rifa'i Taha that occurred in 13 October of 2000, right? 14 A. Yes. So it could be this one or this one. But what I'm 15 talking about here clearly, I'm talking about the telephone 16 number. Which one exactly, I don't want to be just -- 17 Q. It is either Nabil Elmasry or Yousef Odeh? 18 A. Either or. 19 Q. Did you give his number to anyone else? 20 A. Did I give -- 21 Q. Did you give his number to anyone else besides Rifa'i Taha? 22 A. This is the only people I gave. I give him Nabil Elmasry's 23 number so if anybody wants to check my, see who I am, they can 24 call him and for Yousef okay because from the beginning of 2000 25 I was spending too much time with him working in the baby SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10875 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 formula business, and he has a cell phone. 2 Q. Page 9 of this conversation which occurred on May 9 -- 3 A. The same conversation? 4 Q. Yes. With Rifa'i Taha. This is later in the conversation. 5 On page 9, you say: Yeah, yeah, and they like to eh. Then you 6 said: Anyway. A communication happened between Yunis and 7 those people. And he said hum. And you said: It is okay. I 8 mean, it wasn't bad. And he says hum. And you said: I 9 believe your brother -- and you're laughing -- doesn't 10 understand a lot of things. I believe, but God knows better, 11 um, they calmed down. And Taha says hum. Meaning 12 unintelligible, around them? And you say: Yes, yes. And you 13 pause. And you say yes. It was clear that they are not. 14 Comfortable with the engineer. 15 You're talking about the fact that you connected 16 Mustafa Hamza or Yunis, as you refer to him here, with Atia and 17 Hani, right? 18 A. Yes. At the first line here I'm telling him that Yunis get 19 in touch with those people, that I send you about -- I send you 20 an e-mail in a few months back. And I say it is okay, it is 21 not bad. It wasn't bad, the conversation. What I'm saying 22 here, I believe your brother means me. I'm referring to 23 myself. I don't understand a lot of things. I don't know a 24 lot of things they are talking about. I believe God knows 25 better. Those people calmed down because they were calling me SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10876 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 as you saw a few times seeking people. Do you want to talk to 2 Yunis or Abu Yasir? So here I'm telling them the situation it 3 will calm down, they don't bother that much no more. 4 Q. My question was, did you -- were you telling him that you 5 had connected Yunis and Atia and Hani? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. The answer is yes, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And at the end when you said it was clear that they are not 10 comfortable with the engineer, again, you're referring to Salah 11 Hashim? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. The conversation continues and Taha says: Hah. And you 14 say: I mean those. And Taha says: They complained. They 15 complained from the stories circulating now. You said: Oh, 16 yes, they complained from the stories circulating now, but our 17 brother told them also, this is according to what the people 18 agreed to. They said we cannot revolt against -- and you said 19 hum. And you said: Anyone, but eh, eh, eh, they were 20 resentful to put it in a better way. Rifa'i Taha says: I 21 better call them in this case, ah? Then you stated in response 22 to that on page 10: I don't know. Calling them is by 23 appointment. Rifa'i Taha says: He better call Atia and Hani, 24 right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10877 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You said: You can only do it by an appointment? 2 A. Yes. Because if you go back to the calls, they set a date, 3 you know, they were telling Yunis, you call us on such a date. 4 It is very hard to get in touch with them unless somebody is 5 waiting by the phone. 6 Q. And Rifa'i Taha says: We can make appointments. And you 7 said yes. And he says: That is better because I need elements 8 like these at this stage. And then you said: I'm frankly 9 telling you these words though. I am not sure if I'm allowed 10 to or not. 11 What you're referring to here is the fact that Mustafa 12 Hamza had told Hani and Atia that they should not talk to Abu 13 Yasir, right? 14 A. No. I'm not quite sure what I am saying right there. I 15 need to read the whole thing so I can be able to explain it to 16 you. I need to read the whole conversation, if I may, so I can 17 understand what I'm talking about. I don't know what I'm 18 saying if I'm referring to Abu Yasir or I'm referring to what 19 Mr. Hamza is saying. 20 Q. I've just read you from the beginning of the conversation 21 which starts with anyway on page 9, all the way through to the 22 point where we are. 23 A. I'm saying, I'm frankly telling you these words, though I 24 am not sure if I am allowed to or not. I'm telling him, you 25 know about, you know, certain things, what I told him before. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10878 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 There is nothing that I said before referring to Mustafa Hamza 2 that he is telling them not to talk to Rifa'i Taha. So we are 3 looking at him this way. I really don't know. That's why I 4 said, let me see the rest of the conversation. Maybe I'm 5 saying something like that, but I really don't know, Mr. 6 Morvillo. The words that I said before that, it is not what 7 you are describing. 8 Q. Well, what you said was: I am not sure if I'm allowed to 9 tell you or not, right? 10 A. Yes. I am not sure if I'm allowed to tell him what was 11 going on in the conversation between Taha -- between Yunis and 12 them, not the -- a specific thing, that they are not allowed 13 to -- 14 Q. It is fair to say, Mr. Sattar, you, as you sit here today, 15 you really don't know what you were referring to? 16 A. I'm telling I don't know what I'm referring to. That's why 17 I said I need to look at the conversation. 18 Q. And Taha in response to you says at line 9: Of course, you 19 are allowed. Everything is supposed to. And you say: Yes, 20 yes. And he says: Because things have reached a difficult 21 stage somehow, especially after this message. I don't know 22 what, unintelligible, that hurt him. Then you say: Yes, yes. 23 And Rifa'i Taha says: When I asked one of the brothers, I 24 understood that -- he told me, it is supposed to be the line of 25 poetry. And you said yes. And he says: Of the new poem. And SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10879 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 you said: Yes, yes. And then he said: I said what, they 2 neither help, nor allow relief to come from anywhere. Hum. 3 He is speaking about poetry again, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. But he is not really speaking about poetry? 6 A. No, he is not saying, you know, he is going to send love 7 poem or anything like that. He is talking about something 8 else. You know, I mean, I really don't know exactly what he is 9 talking about here. Sitting here today I don't know exactly 10 what he is talking about. But if we go a little further, 11 because as you see, those conversations explain themselves. 12 There is nothing hidden for all this time. For the time that I 13 was speaking to those people everything was in the 14 conversation. So there is nothing hidden. So maybe if I read 15 more, I will remember or I will see what he is really talking 16 about here, but I really don't -- 17 Q. You don't know what he means by line of poetry, right? 18 A. No, I don't. 19 Q. Then the next page, line 11 at line 2 you say: So I mean, 20 it was eh -- the other ones were in poor shape. And you 21 continue at line 4: And they complained that there are things 22 that, eh, that were leaked. And then Rifa'i Taha says: Do you 23 know that all the young men are like that, Sheikh? And you 24 said yes. And he says: All the young men I met are refusing 25 the matter completely. And you said: Yes, yes. But no. Do SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10880 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 you remember I read for you a report that was in the -- and he 2 says hum. And you said: The one that was in that thing. And 3 he said: I remember it. And you said: Not the report I sent 4 you. And he says yeah. And you said: It was the one in 5 Al-Arabi magazine, the Al-Ahram Al-Arabi. And Taha says yes. 6 You said: I told you there is a part of the bottom, the 7 extreme bottom after the killing or the martyring, of our 8 brother Farid. 9 What you're referring to is an article that you read 10 to Rifa'i Taha that stated that Atia had replaced Farid Kidwani 11 as the military leader of the Islamic Group in Egypt, right? 12 A. Yes, there was an article -- yes, this is what I'm 13 referring to. 14 Q. And so at the top here when you say and they complained 15 that there are things that were leaked, you're referring to the 16 fact that Atia was concerned that the fact that he had been 17 named the leader of the military wing of the Islamic Group had 18 leaked out? 19 A. That's what he was asking, actually, and he says, you know, 20 this is what the article said, that it was leaked out, yes. 21 But if we go to the conversation now, he wants to know in the 22 conversation with Mustafa Hamza, he wants to know is this true 23 or not. 24 Q. We already talked about that conversation. What we are 25 talking about now is this conversation, which is, you're SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10881 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 telling Rifa'i Taha that Atia, they complained that there are 2 things that were leaked, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And the things that were leaked was the fact that Atia had 5 become the military leader of the Islamic Group, right? 6 A. Yes. This goes in that line, yes. 7 Q. And then you continue speaking about this. The last line 8 on the prior page, which was line 11, on page 11, you're 9 talking about the martyring of our brother Farid Kidwani. He 10 says yes. You say yes. And then he says: The four, yes? And 11 you said: Those four. 12 That's the four people who were killed with Farid 13 Kidwani, Farid Kidwani and three others? 14 A. Yes, this is what we talked about. 15 Q. In September 1999? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you continued: And they said that Mr. So and so 18 replaced him and that stirred surprise and so. And down to 19 line 9 you continue: Our brother was casting blame regarding 20 this story. He didn't know about it from Al-Ahram Al-Arabi, 21 but he learned of it from the voice of Israel. You said at 22 line 13: So he said that no one knows this matter, so how can 23 it be leaked this way. 24 What you're referring to here is the fact that Atia 25 said to Mustafa Hamza on the telephone that he heard it on SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10882 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 voice of Israel, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. We spoke of that before, a voice of Israel is a radio 4 program, right? 5 A. Yes. He said here nobody knows about this matter, how it 6 would be leaked this way. He heard it on the voice of Israel. 7 Nobody told him straightforward that he is such -- 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, he said what he said. 9 A. Yes. I'm explaining to you -- you've been asking me to 10 explain things. And I'm just explaining things to you the way 11 I see it, Mr. Morvillo. 12 Q. Whether he knew about it or not is something that you don't 13 know as you sit here? 14 A. Well, from the conversation, he clearly knows about it from 15 the voice of Israel and he is asking to confirm in the previous 16 conversation, yes. 17 Q. That's your understanding? 18 THE COURT: There was a question. 19 A. What was it? 20 Q. That's your understanding, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. At line 17 you say: You know, of course, I have no voice. 23 I mean, I'm a listener only, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I now display SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10883 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1087X in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: This comes with the same limiting 4 instruction, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Same limiting instruction, ladies and 6 gentlemen. There was received only with respect to Counts 2 7 and 3 and cannot be considered for the truth of any of the 8 matters asserted against Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, the next conversation, Government Exhibit 10 1087X, that I wanted to talk about is a call that occurred on 11 May 17 of 2000 between yourself and Rifa'i Taha. And this is 12 about a week after the prior call that you had with Rifa'i 13 Taha, which was on May 9, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. At line 4 you said: I found the name. And he says what? 16 And you said: I found the name. And he is very happy. Bravo. 17 You are great, he says, right? 18 Mr. Sattar, did I read that right at line 7? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Then Rifa'i Taha says: It will be better if you send it to 21 me. And you said: Shall I send it? And Rifa'i Taha says: 22 Yeah. And then you said: Okay. But you looked for it, too, 23 because I once sent you a name and a number. 24 What you're referring to there, Mr. Sattar, is that 25 you had previously sent him this information that you're about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10884 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 to send him again? 2 A. Yes. The name and number of the people that Hani give me 3 previously. 4 Q. You had sent that to him back in January? 5 A. That I sent it to him in January, yes. This is what I'm 6 referring to. 7 Q. And then you said because, for example, I have 500 names 8 and numbers, and I don't want, eh -- I want eh, eh to review 9 with you. And Rifa'i Taha says: Okay, fine. Send me all the 10 things which you have. And you said: Everything which I -- 11 and you laugh. And you say: Okay. And he laughs. And then 12 you say: I tell you eh, eh, there is something -- they are -- 13 those people are acting with the utmost. And Rifa'i Taha says: 14 Yeah. And you say: With extra caution. And then Taha says: 15 This is good. God bless him. You said, as a matter of fact, I 16 felt from their behavior, that they are in a very difficult 17 situation. And then Rifa'i Taha says: May God bless them. 18 This is a well-known thing. And you said: Even the -- those 19 of them -- as you know, who are in hiding. And Taha says em. 20 And you said: They don't go out except, except when it is 21 dark. And Rifa'i Taha says: May God bless them. 22 You're talking about the fact that the people that 23 you're talking with, Hani and Atia, as far as you understand, 24 are fugitives, right? 25 A. Yes, are hiding from the Egyptian government, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10885 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Then on page 3 of Government Exhibit 1087X you continue and 2 you say: And wo, wo, wo, part of them, almost no one knows 3 anything about them at all. And Taha says: This is grace from 4 God. And you say: I mean to deal with them -- that is why I 5 am telling you, when you are on the -- listen. And then he 6 says em. And you say tomorrow. And you continue at line 9 and 7 say: I want you to be, eh, to be with me in all the 8 communications which I am going to do. And he says em. And 9 you said: Is that okay? And he says: Okay. 10 Were you asking him to listen to the conversations 11 that you were going to have? 12 A. No. Just if we can go further it will probably explain 13 itself. 14 Q. At line 14 you say: I am going to connect you with the 15 first one. Line 16 you say: Tell him, you identify yourself. 16 And he says: Shall I tell him whom I am just like that? And 17 then you said: Yes. Tell him that you requested to talk to 18 eh -- and then at line 20 you say: To us. 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. What you're talking about is the fact that you're going to 21 connect Rifa'i Taha with Atia and Hani, right? 22 A. Yes. I am not going to talk first, that he should do the 23 talking. 24 Q. So what you were saying is, I want you to be on the line 25 with me and I'll connect you? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10886 4CFMSAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. He would call you from Afghanistan and then you would call 3 from New York to Egypt where Atia and Hani are? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. With Rifa'i Taha on the phone? 6 A. Yes. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, is this a convenient time? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for lunch until 10 2:00. 11 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please, 12 please don't talk about this case at all. Always remember to 13 keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, 14 I've instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 15 begin your deliberations. 16 Have a good lunch. I'll see you later this afternoon. 17 All rise, please, and please follow Mr. Fletcher to 18 the jury room. 19 (Jury not present) 20 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 21 Please be back at ten of two. 22 (Luncheon recess) 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10887 4CF5SAT4 1 A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N 2 2:21 p.m. 3 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 4 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, we are sitting until 4:30 5 today? 6 THE COURT: Yes. So far as I know. 7 MR. BARKOW: Shall I take the lectern? 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I approach the witness? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (Jury present) 12 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. 13 THE JURY: Good afternoon. 14 THE COURT: Good to see you all. 15 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 16 Mr. Fletcher? 17 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 18 are still under oath. 19 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 20 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Thank you, your Honor. 22 CROSS EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. MORVILLO: 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, right when we broke you we were discussing 25 Government Exhibit 1087X, in evidence, and that was a telephone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10888 4CF5SAT4 1 call on May 17th of 2000 between yourself and Rifa'i Taha? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display a page from 4 Government Exhibit 1087X? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is page 6 of Government Exhibit 1087X. At 7 line 3 he says, Rifa'i Taha says to you: Memorize the number. 8 Now I am going to give you the number "nine." 9 Then you said: What number? 10 And he said: Nine. 11 And then you replied: Yeah. 12 Then he said: Later, I will give you the rest. Peace 13 be on you. 14 And you said: And peace of God and His mercy be on 15 you. 16 What is this about? 17 A. I have no idea. I really don't know. 18 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, that telephone call where you told Rifa'i 19 Taha that you were going to put him in touch with Atia and Hani 20 that we just talked about, May 17th of 2000, right? 21 A. Yes. Yes. 22 Q. That was two days before the May 2000 prison visit, right? 23 A. That was? 24 Q. Two days before the May 2000, visit? 25 A. The May 17, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10889 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. And the May 2000 prison visit occurred on May 19th and 20th 2 of 2000, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, as you testified yesterday and last week, you wrote a 5 letter to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman in which you passed along 6 Rifa'i Taha's position and opinion with respect to the 7 cease-fire to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then you gave that letter to either Ms. Stewart or 10 Mr. Yousry and then the visit occurred and when the visit was 11 over you got the response, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And we have seen a lot of evidence here in this case about 14 that visit, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. You didn't go on that visit? 17 A. No. 18 Q. After the visit, there came a time on June 13th of 2000 19 when you and Lynne Stewart released Sheikh Abdel Rahman's 20 withdrawal of support for the cease-fire to the press, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And as you testified on direct examination, there was what 23 I believe you called a huge reaction to that, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. In fact, you received many, many telephone calls after the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10890 4CF5SAT4 1 press release was issued, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You got calls from Afghanistan, calls from Egypt and calls 4 from London, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you also got many telephone calls from reporters who 7 wanted to interview you, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you also told us that you participated in an interview 10 with Al-Jazeera in the wake of the press release, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Now, they didn't call you out of the blue to ask you to 13 participate in that interview, right? 14 A. Who, Al-Jazeera? 15 Q. Right. 16 A. Al-Jazeera did not call me directly. They called Yassir 17 Al-Sirri first and he told them that I am the Sheikh's 18 paralegal and they could speak with me. He spoke to me first 19 and I said, yes, I will speak it them and this is when -- 20 Q. And what Yassir Al-Sirri told you is that the people who 21 were being considered to do the interview were you and Rifa'i 22 Taha and that he couldn't get in touch with Rifa'i Taha so he 23 was coming to you, right? 24 A. No, he was -- I'm not quite sure of that detail but as what 25 I said in my direct as what I told Mr. Fallick, it was -- I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10891 4CF5SAT4 1 believe it was either they were going to speak with me or with 2 Muntasir Al-Zayat, and I had it and I had enough with Muntasir 3 slandering me and saying bad things, so I said I better go and 4 I do that myself. 5 Q. Right. He said that you were in the CIA and things like 6 that right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You are not in the CIA? 9 A. No, I'm not in the CIA. 10 Q. And, with respect to the Al-Jazeera interview, you really 11 didn't want to do it, did you? 12 A. I didn't want to? 13 Q. Did you not actually want to do the interview? 14 A. No, I did not want to, you know, speak to the media. It 15 was just, you know, I mean I was -- I was already, you know, 16 fed up with the whole situation. 17 Q. And Al-Sirri pressured you into doing it essentially, 18 right? 19 A. It's not pressuring me. It was, do you want to speak to 20 Al-Jazeera or Muntasir Al-Zayat will speak to Al-Jazeera. I 21 said, no, I'm going to speak to them. 22 It's not like he is pressuring me to speak or to -- it 23 was a choice between me and Muntasir and I would rather to do 24 it myself. 25 Q. In other words, you preferred to talk about the statement SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10892 4CF5SAT4 1 rather than have Muntasir Al-Zayat speak about it, right? 2 That's what you're saying? 3 A. No. I prefer to speak about what the Sheikh said rather 4 than Muntasir go in there and I don't know what he is going to 5 say about me. 6 At this point I was just, you know, trying to protect 7 my reputation. That's it. This is all I cared about at this 8 point. 9 Q. So you were -- what you are saying is you participated in 10 the interview so that Muntasir Al-Zayat would not go on 11 television and slander you? 12 A. This is what I was -- this was my thinking at the time, 13 yes. 14 Q. Right before the prison visit when you spoke with Rifa'i 15 Taha about putting him in touch with Atia, did you actually 16 make efforts to connect Rifa'i Taha with Atia? 17 A. Did I -- 18 Q. At that time. 19 A. That day? 20 Q. Or in about that time, in May of 2000. 21 A. In May of 2000 I don't remember that I made effort to put 22 him in touch with Atia or not. I don't -- I don't remember. 23 Q. Well, you recall that prior to Rifa'i Taha and Hani 24 actually speaking -- which happened in September, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10893 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. You made several efforts to put them in touch with one 2 another? 3 A. Between -- between May and -- I mean between when I, when 4 Rifa'i Taha expressed his, you know, desire to speak with them 5 I made many efforts between May and September. 6 So I would to put them together, yes. 7 Q. Right. And of course in, after the prison visit and in 8 June of 2000 you were preoccupied with other matters, right? 9 A. After -- I'm not -- 10 Q. In other words, you weren't focused on getting Rifa'i Taha 11 together with Atia and Hani at that time, you were dealing with 12 the Sheikh's statement and the huge reaction to that statement, 13 right? 14 A. Getting Rifa'i Taha and Atia together was not a priority 15 for me. 16 He expressed the desire, I tried to talk to -- I tried 17 to call the people. I could not get in touch with them and 18 then, you know, I didn't. 19 So, I told him I couldn't get in touch with them. If 20 he expressed, you know, the desire again I would and say, can 21 you get touch with them again, I will do it. 22 It's not because I was, you know, I was occupied or 23 was busy or I was doing other things. I was just, you know, if 24 he wants to -- if he asks me to can you get in touch with these 25 people? I will call them. It's not because I was preoccupied SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10894 4CF5SAT4 1 or anything. 2 Q. You attempted on several occasions to track down Hani, 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Before you actually were able to do it? 6 A. Yes, I did not actually get in touch with them until 7 September. 8 Q. Right. 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. So that was between May 17th of 2000 and September of 2000, 11 there were a number of efforts that you made to track down Hani 12 and talk to him? 13 A. Yes. Yes. 14 Q. Incidentally, during this time period were you continuing 15 to connect Mustafa Hamza with Hani and Atia? 16 A. No, I don't think I was. I'm not sure. I think, you know, 17 Mustafa Hamza was on his own. I'm not quite sure when the last 18 time I connected him with Atia but they were, you know, 19 speaking on their own. 20 Q. They found another way to communicate other than through 21 your telephone, is that what you are saying? 22 A. They were -- I don't know if they were communicating but, 23 you know he never asked me -- it was, to me, if he asked me to 24 connect, I will connect. If he did not ask me to connect him 25 I'm not going to even bother. You know, its -- so, I don't SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10895 4CF5SAT4 1 know if he was, if he found another way or not but, from the 2 apparent calls after that, yes, they did found another way. 3 Q. Well, isn't it true that after the Sheikh's statement came 4 out you stopped speaking with Mustafa Hamza? 5 A. After what? What statement? 6 Q. The Sheikh's statement withdrawing support for the 7 cease-fire? 8 A. I was upset with him because, you know, has saying bad 9 things about me. 10 Q. And -- 11 A. I'm not quite sure when exactly I stopped speaking with him 12 but, you know, I believe I stopped completely talking to him 13 after Atia's death. This is when I stopped completely speaking 14 to him. 15 Q. But it's fair to say, Mr. Sattar, is it not, that your 16 communications with Mustafa Hamza slowed down considerably 17 after the Sheikh's statement and then, as you say, ceased 18 entirely after Atia's death? 19 A. Yes. 20 You know, Mr. Morvillo it is -- I was not in a 21 position to call those people. When they call me, I'm there. 22 If I'm not, if they don't call, I don't bother. This is it. 23 So he's just, you know, stopped calling. I don't know 24 if he stopped completely calling or not but, you know, I -- I 25 expressed my desire after Atia's death that I don't want to SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10896 4CF5SAT4 1 talk to him no more and I believe until today I have not 2 speaken to him since that time. 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 4 Government Exhibit 1164X, in evidence? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I seem to have misplaced my 7 chart of which calls get limiting instructions, may I have a 8 moment? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 (Pause) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display 1164X to the 12 jury? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation that occurred 15 on August 14th, 2000 over your telephone? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And this telephone conversation was between yourself and 18 Ahmed Al-Sherif? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And Ahmed Al-Sherif was one of the people who was 21 associated with Hani and Atia, right? 22 A. Ahmed Al-Sherif, yes, he is a teacher working in that city 23 that he is associated with Hani and Atia, yes. 24 Q. And he is in Egypt, right? 25 A. Yes. He is in the same city that I was calling there in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10897 4CF5SAT4 1 Egypt. 2 Q. And this was the first time that you had spoken with him in 3 a while, right? 4 A. That was, yes, since a long time; yes. 5 Q. Displaying page 2 from Government Exhibit 1164X at line 14 6 you exchange greetings and then he says, at line 18: Why 7 haven't we heard from you? 8 And then you say: I swear, eh, I mean, circumstances 9 weren't quite favorable. 10 Right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And then on line 10 you say: Thank God, we are well... 13 really, we are well. Until now, we have not been successful 14 talking with brother Hani. 15 And he says: Yeah. 16 What you mean here, Mr. Sattar, is that since May you 17 have not been successful in connecting with Hani, right? 18 A. Yes, since Rifa'i Taha asked me to call him and I couldn't 19 get in touch with him all this time, yes. 20 Q. And he says: Yeah. 21 And you said: So, I mean... so, I don't know. 22 And then Al-Sherif tells you: He was around today. 23 And you say: No might or power save in God. So I 24 don't... 25 And he said: Haven't you set a date with him? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10898 4CF5SAT4 1 And you said: We haven't set a date. Really, things 2 changed, I mean -- 3 He says: Em. 4 And you say: Things changed. There were... I mean 5 there were people who used to talk to him. 6 And by that you are referring to Mustafa Hamza, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And then you say: Okay. 9 At line 2 of page 4 of Government Exhibit 1164X. 10 Okay? They are still... I mean, it is possible that 11 they are still in touch with him. 12 And he says: Okay. 13 And you say: But there is a brother, there are other 14 brothers who want to speak to him. 15 And he says: Yeah. 16 And you say: They want to create, to create an 17 avenue, to create a way to communicate with him. 18 And he says: Different from his first date? 19 And you said: Different from the first date, this 20 will be a second date. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. So, what you are talking about is the fact that Rifa'i Taha 23 wants to speak with Hani and he is inquiring as to whether -- 24 A. He is what? 25 Q. Inquiring, he is asking you -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10899 4CF5SAT4 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. -- whether this is the same person who wants to speak to 3 him who was previously speaking to him, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And just so we are clear, the person who was previously 6 speaking to him was Mustafa Hamza? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And when you are talking about dates here, his first date 9 and the second date at line 10, he says: Different from his 10 first date. 11 And you repeat that saying: Yes, different from the 12 first date, this will be a second date. 13 The first date is Mustafa Hamza, the second date is 14 Rifa'i Taha? 15 A. The first date is Yunis, as I know him; and the second date 16 is Rifa'i Taha or Abu Yasir, yes. 17 Q. And then you say: This is a second date... because those, 18 I mean, I mean... I am talking about two different places now. 19 And he says: Okay. 20 What did you mean by two different places? 21 A. I think this is just, from what I seen in this 22 conversation, I think this is just a misinterpretation of, or 23 mistranslation. I'm talking about two different. 24 Q. Two different people? 25 A. Two different people, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10900 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. And on page 6 of Government Exhibit 1164X they are 2 continuing to talk about connecting with Rifa'i Taha with him 3 and he says to you, at line 15, well, shouldn't I tell him 4 exactly who it is that wants to speak with him, to him? 5 And you said: Tell him, tell him... it is not me who 6 wants to talk to him, brother. 7 And he says: Yeah. 8 You said: Tell him it is Sheikh Abu Yasir, that 9 Sheikh Rifa'i Taha wants to talk to him. 10 And he says: Em. Okay. And he responded regarding 11 this matter before, or didn't he? 12 And then on page 7 you say: No, he didn't respond at 13 all. 14 And then at line 3: He did not respond at all. So, I 15 don't know, eh, eh... is he... 16 What is your understanding of what you meant by saying 17 "he did not respond at all"? 18 A. Hani did not respond. 19 Q. To your -- 20 A. To my efforts to call him. 21 Q. And then Al-Sherif says, at line 4: And the one who calls, 22 who is associated with Haj Ali, didn't he tell him that they 23 want him or anything? 24 And then you said: I don't have... I really don't 25 know. The Sheikh calls me here. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10901 4CF5SAT4 1 Now, is it your understanding that Haj Ali is a 2 reference to Yunis? 3 A. My understanding was, yeah, this is a name that they gave 4 Yunis, yes. Ali was, he was referring to Yunis. 5 And, you know, I was just, you know, expressing that I 6 really don't know, you know, what's going on there. 7 Q. Because you were no longer connecting Yunis with -- 8 A. Yes, I'm not in the loop. I don't know what's going on 9 between them. 10 Q. And when you say the Sheikh calls me here, you are 11 referring to Sheikh Rifa'i Taha? 12 A. Yes, I was referring to Rifa'i Taha, yes. 13 Q. Displaying page 12 from Government Exhibit 1164X, you say 14 to Al-Sherif: And tell him so and so wants to speak with you. 15 The Sheikh wants to speak to him. 16 Line 5 you say: Okay? If it is possible. And we 17 want an answer, either, either yes or no. 18 And Al-Sherif says: I mean, is it okay if he says he 19 does not wish to speak to anyone? 20 And you said: Who? 21 And he says, in response: I mean, it is okay if he 22 gets permission from the one above him, and he tells him not to 23 answer... is that okay? 24 And then you say: That's it. We would at least, at 25 least know -- SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10902 4CF5SAT4 1 What's your understanding of what Al-Sherif is telling 2 you with respect to your request for Hani to speak with Rifa'i 3 Taha? 4 A. He is saying, you know, if he -- if the people that, above 5 him, you know, that he is in, connected with him, as I 6 understand that Hani was just a go between two, a connection. 7 And if he, if those people tell him that either want to speak 8 to anybody, so this is it. Sobeit. 9 Q. And you tell him, at line 11, in response to him saying 10 that he is going to tell Hani and Hani is going to get 11 permission, you say: That's it. We would at least, at least 12 know -- 13 And Al-Sherif says: Would know instead of being 14 continuously here waiting for him. 15 And you say: And we can make our calculations based 16 on that. 17 And he said: Yeah. 18 And you said: We can make our calculations based on 19 that. Because, I mean, you can see that matters are eh... I 20 mean I don't want to, I mean... maybe you read and know, 21 matters are very complicated. 22 Were you referring to the Sheikh's statement 23 withdrawing support for the cease-fire? 24 A. No. I'm referring to the conflict that's arising between 25 two factions in the Islamic Group, people who are conflicting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10903 4CF5SAT4 1 with each other, and it is all over the newspaper. 2 This is what I am referring to. 3 Q. And of course Sheikh Abdel Rahman's statement withdrawing 4 support for the cease-fire was related to that conflict, right? 5 A. It was, it was in the newspapers too but mainly, you know, 6 the newspapers were focusing on there is conflict, there is 7 this, there is that. And this is what I am referring to. 8 Q. And Al-Sherif says: Things are somewhat branched out so 9 the... 10 You say: Exactly. Matters during the past peer... 11 Al-Sherif says: More confusing than ever... 12 You say exactly: Exactly. So, we want to, so, so, so 13 the Sheikh wants to clarify things. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. When you said, "the Sheikh," you are referring to Rifa'i 16 Taha, right? 17 A. Rifa'i Taha, yes. 18 Q. And what you are telling him is that Rifa'i Taha wants to 19 get in touch with Hani and Atia to clarify what's going on in 20 the Islamic Group? 21 A. To -- no. To explain himself, to explain what's -- to 22 clarify, to express his point of view as I said before. 23 This is what I understand from here. And this is what 24 I understood it all along that he wants to express just his 25 point. He wants to express his point of view. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10904 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. And, on page 13 of Government Exhibit 1164X at line 9 you 2 say: So, so even if it will not be, I mean we will at least, 3 we will at least know. So, we at least know what is going on. 4 If, if the brother does not want to speak to the Sheikh, let 5 him tell you to tell him we have nothing to do with him. 6 And Al-Sherif says: [Laughing] in those exact words. 7 And then you respond: It's not a matter of, in those 8 exact words. But, so that, so that we would know. 9 And then at line 17 you say: So that we, we would 10 know and be clear. 11 Again, you are talking about if Atia did not want to 12 speak with Rifa'i Taha they should just get back to you and say 13 we want nothing -- 14 A. Yes, they don't want anything to do with him and this will 15 be clear and I will tell him those people don't want anything 16 to do with you. 17 Q. And then at line 20 you tell Al-Sherif: Yes. Speak with 18 brother Hani and tell him, tell him, tell him that we need, we 19 need an answer, whether no or yes. Will you come, the man 20 wants to talk to you. 21 And Al-Sherif says: Em. 22 To you, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And then you set up a time when you can speak again and he 25 says to you, this is page 18 of 1164X, that you will call him SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10905 4CF5SAT4 1 again on Monday and that you need an answer, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You are talking you are going to call him back on the 4 following Monday? 5 A. I told him I will call him back on Monday, yes. 6 Q. And then at line 8 you say: Good, God willing. I don't 7 think there are any objections, I mean I don't think so... 8 this, this is a possibility... I mean that's me talking. I 9 don't think there are any objections. I don't think Haj Ali 10 will object. 11 And this is you telling Al-Sherif that you didn't 12 think that Mustafa Hamza would object to Rifa'i Taha speaking 13 with Atia? 14 A. Yes. I am referring to that Yunis will not probably object 15 to Rifa'i Taha speaking to Atia, yes. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 17 Exhibit 1165X, in evidence? 18 THE COURT: Before you do that, why don't we take a 19 stretch break. 20 (Stretch break) 21 THE COURT: All right, you may. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I consult with my 23 colleagues for a second? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 (Counsel conferring) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10906 4CF5SAT4 1 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it is my understanding that 2 Government Exhibit 1165X has that limiting instruction. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 Ladies and gentlemen, Government Exhibit 1165X is 5 received only with respect to Counts Two and Three of the 6 indictment and cannot be considered for the truth of any of the 7 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 8 Go ahead. 9 BY MR. MORVILLO: 10 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, the call with Ahmed Sherif was on August 11 14th of 2000? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Government Exhibit 1165X is on September 4th of 2000 14 over your telephone, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that is a telephone conversation between yourself and 17 Rifa'i Taha, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And at line 8 he says: Do I directly talk to him now? 20 And you say: Yes. 21 And then he is saying, he says to you at line 10: I 22 ask how they are doing and so, ha? Will this be the brother 23 himself or who? 24 And you say: No, this will be Hani, he is a 25 middleman. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10907 4CF5SAT4 1 And what you are talking about here is that you are 2 about to set up a conference call between Rifa'i Taha and Hani? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And when he says, when Rifa'i Taha says: "The brother 5 himself," on line 10, he is referring to Atia, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. At page 2 of Government Exhibit 1165X, Rifa'i Taha is still 8 inquiring of you how the call is going to work, right? 9 A. I think, yeah. 10 Q. He says: Who did I ask him to get for me or he is- 11 And you say: I don't know. 12 And then at line 4 you say: I don't know who you ask 13 to get him for you because I don't know the other guy's name. 14 He didn't even say his name. 15 And Taha says: Do I ask him if he is brother Hani? 16 And then you say: This is Hani. Hani is, uh, is the 17 middleman. 18 And when you are saying middleman, what you mean is he 19 is the person who will connect you with Atia? 20 A. He is the person, yes, that will connect -- will connect me 21 with Atia, yes, or, you know, the many alias that he was, that 22 he had at the time. 23 Q. You mean Atia? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Hammam Badrawi? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10908 4CF5SAT4 1 A. Hamid. You know, he has those so many names so, you know. 2 Q. And then at line 8 he is asking you what does he say to 3 Hani, he says: Do I say to him are you Hani? 4 And you say: Yes. 5 And he says: Okay, fine. 6 And then at line 11 you say: The other brother... the 7 other brother just want to uh... no meeting before, uh, with 8 brother Yunis before he made sure. He kept asking him some 9 questions like who do you know and...... 10 And Rifa'i Taha says: Okay. 11 And you say: All right? 12 When you are talking about what Yunis said to Hani, 13 you are talking about what we discussed before, which was sort 14 of the background check that he was doing on Atia asking him 15 all those questions? 16 A. It's not -- it's not the background check. It is until, 17 this whole period of time from what you see from this 18 conversation, it was very confusing. Nobody knows who is 19 talking to who. It was just reports on the radio, reports in 20 magazine. But the actual people that they are talking to each 21 other, they still don't know who is talking to who. 22 So this is what I'm saying here, you know, Yunis was 23 trying to ask him some questions so to get an idea about who 24 this person really is. 25 This is what I was trying to say to him. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10909 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. He is trying to figure out who Atia is, and the way he is 2 figuring that out is by asking who he is connected to and who 3 he knows and where he has been and questions like that? 4 A. Yes. Who he was in touch with. Things like that, yes. 5 Q. Inquiring into his background? 6 A. Inquiring to know who he really is, yeah, who Atia is. 7 Q. And then at line 16 Rifa'i Taha says: I will try to tell 8 him to get him for me, ha? 9 And you say: Yes. 10 And Taha says: What is this other guy known by? 11 And you say: What is what? 12 And Taha says: That other brother, what is his 13 agnomen. 14 And you said: He didn't even say the agnomen. 15 What are you talking about here? 16 A. To be honest with you I don't know what agnomen means. I 17 mean, I know possibly the word in Arabic but I really don't 18 know what it -- 19 Q. Because this was a conversation that was in Arabic that was 20 translated into English? 21 A. Yes. Yes, so. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 23 Government Exhibit 1166X, in evidence? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it is my understanding that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10910 4CF5SAT4 1 this exhibit also has a limiting instruction. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 Ladies and gentlemen, the same limiting instruction I 4 just gave you with respect to 1165X, in evidence; received only 5 with respect to Counts Two and Three and not for the truth of 6 any of the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart and 7 Mr. Yousry. 8 BY MR. MORVILLO: 9 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1166X is a telephone 10 conversation that occurred on September 4th of 2000 over your 11 telephone, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And this is a conversation between yourself and Hani, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And so, and it's right after the conversation that you had 17 with Rifa'i Taha? 18 A. That's probably so, yes. 19 Q. So what happened here is that you spoke with Rifa'i Taha, 20 he called you, then you hung up with Rifa'i Taha and you called 21 Hani and then you were waiting for Rifa'i Taha to call you back 22 to make a three-way call? 23 A. I'm not sure if I hang up with him or he was on the line. 24 I'm not sure. You know, but it is in that -- at that time, you 25 know. Whether he hung up or was on the line I'm not sure of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10911 4CF5SAT4 1 the conversation itself is cut or -- 2 Q. You speak with an unidentified male first and he says: How 3 are you. 4 And you say: Praise be to God. 5 And he says: Uh, Hani is around. You are... 6 And you say: Okay, can I please talk to him? 7 And then the unidentified male says, at line 8: Isn't 8 Mr. Ali there? 9 And you say: Pardon? 10 And he says, at line 10: The gentleman who was with 11 us last week. 12 Did you understand him to be referring to Yunis? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And when he said the gentleman who was with us last week, 15 you understood that to mean with us on the telephone? 16 A. Yes, he was -- yeah, on the phone with them, yes. 17 Q. And so, it was your understanding that Mustafa Hamza was 18 continuing to speak with Hani since he was with him last week, 19 right? 20 A. No. This was just news to me for the first time I spoke to 21 those people and they just told me that, you know, Mustafa -- 22 or Mustafa Hamza or Ali or Yunis was, you know, in touch, you 23 know, was with them on the phone the week before. 24 Q. But what I meant was that at this time you learned that 25 Mustafa Hamza was continuing to talk to, or at least had spoken SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10912 4CF5SAT4 1 to, last week, Hani? 2 A. Yes. I learned that at this time, yes. 3 Q. And then on page 2 of Government Exhibit 1166X you get on 4 the telephone with Hani and you exchange greetings, right? 5 A. What are you reading? I'm sorry. 6 Yes. 7 Q. And then at line 11 Hani asks you: Who is this? 8 And then you say: My voice? 9 Before Hani said "who is this" you had said "do you 10 remember --" and he said "who is this" and you finished your 11 sentence, " -- my voice." 12 And he said to you: Pardon? 13 And you say at line 14: Oh, man. [Laughs]. This is 14 the man you used to contact. 15 And Hani says: Uh-huh, ah. 16 And you say: How are you? 17 And he said: May God keep you. 18 And you say: You forgot my voice. 19 And he said: How are you? 20 What you meant by "the man you used to contact" is 21 that you were referring to yourself as the person that they 22 used to call when they wanted to speak with Mustafa Hamza? 23 A. Yes, back in January, and -- this time, yes. 24 Q. And, at page 3 of Government Exhibit 1166X at line 3 you 25 say: I just, uh, the Sheikh will call you in five minutes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10913 4CF5SAT4 1 And that's Rifa'i Taha, right? 2 And then you say, at line 5: I want to be sure you 3 are there, so nothing like what happened last time would 4 re-occur. 5 And then Hani says: So you are the man I used to call 6 before. 7 And you said: Pardon, ah. 8 And Hani says: I called you. 9 And you say: Exactly so. 10 And then at line 12 you say: Exactly. You were mad 11 at me. After that... 12 And he says: No, I wasn't. 13 What were you referring to when you said "you were mad 14 at me"? 15 A. Because back then, in January for when he called me in 16 January, two, three times and Yunis did not want to answer him 17 and Rifa'i Taha didn't want to get to him, he was mad at me. 18 He thought, you know, that it was me. He was actually saying 19 what are you doing to us, brother. You know, this is 20 difficult. You don't know where we are getting the money from, 21 we don't have money with us, you know, to make those phone 22 calls. 23 So, he was upset so this is what I was referring to, 24 that he was mad at me back then because he thought that I 25 wasn't connecting them with those people. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10914 4CF5SAT4 1 Q. And then he denies that he was mad at you and tells you 2 that you are a very highly -- you are very highly pressured, 3 right, at lines 18 and line 20? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Do you see that? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then, at page 4 of Government Exhibit 1166X at line 6 8 says: May God keep you. Do I hang up now or he calls and I 9 stay on the line. 10 And you say to him: No, you hang up, he will call, 11 God willing. 12 And Hani says, um, okay. Anything I can do? 13 And then you say: If the voice is distant, or if it 14 is a bit intermittent -- 15 At line 12 you continue: -- don't uh, you know, his 16 circumstances are -- 17 And Hani says: Yeah. I'm aware of that. 18 And you say: And if he hanged up or something he will 19 get back to you. 20 You were telling him that Rifa'i Taha was calling from 21 a distant place and his circumstances were difficult, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 (Continued on next page) 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10915 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Then at page 5, the next page of the transcript, Government 2 Exhibit 1166X, at line 7 Hani says: Isn't he the one you told 3 Ahmed about? 4 By Ahmed, you understand that he is referring to 5 Al-Sherif? 6 A. Al-Sherif, yes. 7 Q. Then you said: You asked. And Hani said: Ah. You said: 8 You asked me about two men before. And Hani says: Yeah, yeah, 9 I remember. And then you said: One of them called you. And 10 that one of them was Mustafa Hamza, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Then you say: And the other one who is bigger than him 13 will call you now, God willing. And then Hani says: God 14 willing. And you say okay? And he is the one I told Mr. Ahmed 15 about. 16 And when you're referring to Mr. Ahmed, you're 17 referring to Ahmed Al-Sherif? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Then a few minutes later Rifa'i Taha calls you back and 20 then you called hon Hani with him? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display to the jury 23 Government Exhibit 1167X in evidence? 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Which also receives a limiting SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10916 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 instruction. 2 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, it is the same 3 limiting instruction. It is received solely with respect to 4 Counts 2 and 3 and not for the truth of the matters asserted 5 with respect to Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 6 Q. Mr. Sattar, Government Exhibit 1167X is a telephone call on 7 September 4, 2000 between yourself, Rifa'i Taha, and Hani, 8 right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And what happens here is that Rifa'i Taha calls you back 11 and then you place a conference call and got Hani on the phone? 12 A. Can you repeat this again, please? 13 Q. What happens here is that -- let me back up. You and 14 Rifa'i Taha have been talking. Then you ended your call with 15 Rifa'i Taha and you called Hani? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You told Hani that Rifa'i Taha was going to call? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then Rifa'i Taha called you back? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And then you made a conference call to Hani, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And that conference call is this exhibit, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. It is reflected in this exhibit? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10917 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 I think I need a break. 3 THE COURT: Let's take a break. 4 We will take ten minutes, ladies and gentlemen. 5 Please remember my continuing instructions not to talk about 6 the case at all, always remember to keep an open mind until you 7 have heard all of the evidence and I've instructed you on the 8 law. 9 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 10 jury room. 11 (Jury not present) 12 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 13 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I don't think he is ready to 14 right now. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. Also, I saw the jurors 16 beginning to talk. 17 Take as much time as you need and just let me know. 18 (Recess) 19 (Pages 10918-10921 SEALED by order of the Court) 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10922 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 (In open court) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. Let's bring in the 3 jury. 4 (Jury present) 5 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, it is a little after 6 3:40, and we are going to break for the day. I told you that I 7 would give you an update on the schedule this week, and I will. 8 The evidence in the case will be concluded by next 9 week, before we break for the holidays, and we will break no 10 later than Wednesday, December 22. That is all parties will 11 have rested no later than Wednesday of next week, December 22. 12 As I've explained to you, the next phase of the case 13 then is summations. And after summations I will instruct you 14 on the law that you are to apply to the facts as you find them, 15 and then you will begin deliberations. 16 Rather than possibly beginning summations next week 17 and then breaking for the holidays, we will begin summations on 18 Wednesday and Thursday, December 29 and 30 and then continue on 19 Monday, January 3, continue with the summations on Monday, 20 January 3. So that tells you where we are. And as I 21 mentioned, we are breaking for the day now. And we will resume 22 tomorrow morning at 9:30. 23 Please remember my continuing instructions. Please 24 don't talk about this case at all or anything to do with it. 25 Please don't talk about it among yourselves, don't talk about SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10923 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 it when you go home. Please don't look at or listen to 2 anything to do with the case. If you should see or hear 3 something inadvertently, please simply turn away. Don't look 4 at or listen to anything to do with the case. Please remember 5 to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, 6 I've instructed you on the law, and you've gone to the jury 7 room to begin your deliberations. Fairness and justice to the 8 parties requires that you do that. 9 With that, have a very good evening and I look forward 10 to seeing you tomorrow morning at 9:30. 11 All rise, please. Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the 12 jury room. 13 (Jury not present) 14 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 15 I mentioned that I would listen -- I don't know if 16 Ms. Baker is around. 17 MR. BARKOW: Your Honor, she is in the office. She 18 didn't obviously know that we were breaking early. We might be 19 able -- the Court wanted to address some of those issues, we 20 can get her to come back, but my guess is she was planning on 21 coming over or checking in with us at the end of the day. She 22 didn't know that it would be now. If we could take a moment, 23 we could call to her office or something. 24 THE COURT: Because there were several issues. One 25 was the motion for reconsideration. Second was the government SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10924 4CFMSAT5 Sattar - cross 1 had a couple of issues with respect to the charge, including 2 whether the government was going to submit anything further to 3 me. I have not seen it on a couple of the issues. 4 MR. BARKOW: Yes, your Honor. Ms. Baker, that's what 5 she was doing today in her office. And she was putting 6 something together. One of our agents actually went out to 7 call her. We hope that she might be heading over. If the 8 Court wants, then she would arrive and we could address those 9 issues. 10 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, may Mr. Sattar be excused for 11 the balance of the day? 12 THE COURT: Yes. In fact, I'll take a break and just 13 tell Mr. Fletcher when we can resume. We are only going to 14 discuss legal issues. Mr. Sattar wishes to be excused for the 15 rest of the day? 16 MR. PAUL: He does. He understands what issues are 17 being discussed. We have talked about that. He wishes to be 18 excused. 19 THE COURT: No objections? 20 Mr. Sattar is excused. 21 (Recess) 22 (Continued on next page) 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10925 4CF5SAT6 1 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 2 First, there was a -- there was a defendant's motion 3 to reconsider with respect to Mr. Hamza and Mr. Taha. And the 4 government wanted an opportunity to respond orally, I think. 5 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I think -- I understood it 6 that you were asking for a response and asked whether I would 7 prefer to do it orally or in writing. 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MS. BAKER: If the Court wants me to respond I would 10 prefer to do it orally. 11 THE COURT: That's fine. 12 MS. BAKER: The motion for reconsideration, as I 13 stated yesterday evening, simply does not address all of the 14 alternative independent bases on which the Court relied in 15 denying the access motion in the first place, which the Court 16 did in its order dated December 10th of 2004. And so, let me 17 address a few of Ms. Stewart's reconsideration points with a 18 little more detail than that. 19 First, in response to Court's holding that the motion 20 was untimely, Ms. Stewart's motion asserts that she did move 21 earlier. It uses the phrase "move earlier" but then attempts 22 to support that by alleging that they made certain efforts in 23 Egypt and were given certain information. 24 Those efforts, assuming arguendo they occurred, do not 25 constitute a motion asking the Court to issue compulsory SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10926 4CF5SAT6 1 process or compel the government to provide information. And, 2 certainly, Ms. Stewart was aware of the potential for making 3 that type of motion as a mechanism given that that type of 4 motion had already been made earlier in this case with respect 5 to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's two sons. 6 So, as the Court pointed out, if potential access to 7 these two witnesses, Taha and Hamza, were in fact material to 8 the defense, Defendant Stewart knew the mechanism that was 9 available to seek the assistance of the Court and could have 10 done so. 11 Now, she attempts to excuse her failure to actually 12 make a motion by suggesting that she didn't know where Hamza 13 was, or that certain sources had said that Taha had disappeared 14 from public view. 15 Again, the form of her motion now is essentially a 16 request for information. It starts by relying on media 17 reports, which the Court has already recognized are probably 18 not sufficiently reliable for this purpose. But, since all she 19 is essentially doing is seeking information, certainly that 20 information could have been sought at an earlier point in time. 21 And, indeed, as to Mr. Taha, who is the one of the two 22 potential witnesses as to whom Stewart makes some effort to 23 posit materiality I want to make one additional point. But let 24 me preface the point I am about to make by saying the 25 government, of course, does not confirm or deny any allegation SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10927 4CF5SAT6 1 or speculation about the whereabouts of either of these two 2 individuals. 3 Moreover, the government certainly does not concede 4 that media reports are an accurate basis for the making of an 5 access motion. But, given that Ms. Stewart has chosen to 6 premise her belated motion on media reports, I would tell the 7 Court that with respect to Mr. Taha, there were media reports 8 in November of 2001 before this case was even commenced and 9 those media reports, in late 2001, stated that Taha had been 10 taken into custody in Syria and extradited to Egypt. 11 And, indeed, on top of those reports simply appearing 12 in the media, those media reports were referenced in telephone 13 conversations that were intercepted in this case, summaries of 14 which were disclosed to the defendants in pretrial discovery. 15 And I am citing now to three summaries or tech cuts 16 disclosed by the government in pretrial discovery marked as 17 Sattartel.6220, 6222, and 6223; that is a series of three 18 telephone calls that Sattar had on November 12th and 13th of 19 2001 with three different associates of his -- or, sorry, two 20 different associates of his. And they are discussing the media 21 reports of Rifa'i Taha's alleged arrest or capture in Syria and 22 his alleged extradition to Egypt. 23 So, if media reports are a sufficient basis for 24 seeking information and starting this sort of a process seeking 25 access, certainly there were media reports out there long ago SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10928 4CF5SAT6 1 that defendant Stewart could have found and could have made 2 this motion earlier before the trial started. 3 Defendant Stewart asserts in her motion that the 4 government has an ongoing duty to provide relevant discovery 5 and exculpatory information and she asserts, without any 6 explanation, that the government has not done so. 7 Of course, the government believes that it has fully 8 complied with its obligations under Brady and its progeny. 9 Obviously the Court is aware that those lines of case law 10 require disclosure of evidence which is materially exculpatory 11 to the defense, information which is in the government's 12 possession, custody or control. And so, within the applicable 13 parameters of the law, the government has fully discharged its 14 obligations and Stewart's allegation is groundless. 15 Now, as to the specific assertions that she makes in 16 support of her motion, the assertions with regard to Mustafa 17 Hamza are completely generic and, as the Court found, 18 inadequate. 19 The Court correctly cites the Ginsberg decision by the 20 Second Circuit for the fact that the defendant cannot simply 21 posit testimony that would be helpful. There has to be some 22 reasonable basis for it. And from the record now before the 23 Court, it was apparently Mr. Tigar presuming what the testimony 24 of the witnesses would be without any particular basis to 25 believe that the witnesses would testify in that fashion. And, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10929 4CF5SAT6 1 particularly, with regard to Mustafa Hamza, there was no detail 2 given. Even with regard to Taha, as to which Mr. Tigar's 3 speculations were somewhat more specific, the Court correctly 4 found that those assertions were not sufficient to meet the 5 showing required by the Sixth Amendment's compulsory process 6 clause. 7 And the fact that Mr. Tigar has now sworn to those 8 allegations or assertions in a declaration doesn't make them 9 more sufficient. 10 He does attempt, in the declaration, to add a few 11 additional points on page 4 of his declaration, but those do 12 not change the sufficiency calculus. 13 The first point that he makes is that he would wish 14 that Messrs. Taha and Hamza would give testimony consistent 15 with two intercepted calls that are in evidence. Those are 16 Government's Exhibits 1002 and 1003. The calls are in evidence 17 and Mr. Tigar can make any argument he wishes to make based on 18 the calls that are in evidence. 19 Next he states that, according to some unidentified 20 witness, "Mr. Taha issued a statement in July 1998 stating that 21 he never signed the charter of the international front." I'm 22 not really sure what the charter of the international front 23 means. I assume this has some reference to the fatwah in 24 February of 1998 that Taha signed along with Bin Laden and 25 others. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10930 4CF5SAT6 1 That information, getting Taha to testify about that 2 information could not be material to Stewart's defense because 3 this Court ruled that the evidence relating to that February 4 1998 fatwah was not admitted against Stewart. 5 When that evidence came in the Court instructed the 6 jury, in pertinent part, these exhibits are admitted only 7 against Mr. Sattar and not against Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry 8 and you cannot consider these exhibits against Ms. Stewart or 9 Mr. Yousry for any purpose. 10 So, that additional allegation adds nothing to the 11 sufficiency of Stewart's showing of materiality. 12 Additionally, Stewart argues that it's not reasonable 13 to assume that Taha and Hamza would assert their Fifth 14 Amendment privilege not to testify and asserts back in response 15 that she wouldn't be seeking to bring the defendants -- sorry, 16 the witnesses to the United States but would seek to take their 17 testimony in Egypt. 18 I don't see how that would change the Fifth Amendment 19 calculus. Testimony given to U.S. authorities has the same 20 Fifth Amendment implications regardless of where it's given, as 21 I understand the law. 22 And, moreover, she is the movant seeking the relief of 23 the Court and so, while she takes issue with the Court's 24 decision arguing that it's not reasonable for the Court to 25 assume that they would not testify, all she does is assert back SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10931 4CF5SAT6 1 in response that "they might". And that is not a sufficient 2 showing for this type of a motion. 3 Beyond that, obviously we take issue with her 4 assertions about the EMLAT process and how it would work and 5 how expeditiously it could be done. 6 But, the bottom line is, she does not negate the 7 Court's various independent bases for denying her motion in the 8 first place and there is no basis to reconsider. 9 MR. TIGAR: May I stand at the lectern, your Honor? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. TIGAR: I'm going to make some representations. 12 If afterwards they need to be sworn I will swear to them. 13 The article that we attached in fact does recite that 14 Mr. Taha did get to Egypt in 2001. I don't know that there is 15 any dispute that there are people who said that he got to Egypt 16 in 2001. 17 When I said we moved, I meant it. We moved this 18 Court, under seal, for CJA assistance and we interviewed the 19 witnesses that I identified in my declaration. That's true. 20 One of those witnesses, as I said in my declaration, 21 is somebody who knows or knew Mr. Taha. That witness said that 22 he didn't know where Mr. Taha was, even though he, that 23 witness, is someone who is very likely to have known whether or 24 not Mr. Taha had got himself to Egypt in 2001. 25 It was this new report, coupled with a call for public SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10932 4CF5SAT6 1 sentiment to be expressed to get Mr. Taha's life saved that 2 caused us to say, wait a minute. Previous information that 3 Mr. Taha had been in Egypt, which was then discounted by an eye 4 witness may indeed be something that's worthy of investigation. 5 That's the chain of events. We were presented with 6 new information that contradicted what we knew before and 7 containing a great deal of corroboration such as the fact that 8 somebody wants to try to save the man's life. 9 So that's the context, your Honor. 10 Now, the government's analysis of what Mr. Taha would 11 or would not say, it seems to us, is beside the point. They 12 won't even ask. They simply say, we don't have to, it's too 13 complicated, we won't do it. 14 When we know from the history of this case and the 15 Rahman case that relationships between the United States and 16 Egyptian security forces are cordial and warm. 17 So, we stand on our papers, your Honor. This is 18 important. 19 The only observation I would make is, yes, it's true 20 that the Court said that the signature on the charter, the 1998 21 event is not admitted against Ms. Stewart. But, at the same 22 time, the Court has introduced or allowed to be introduced a 23 great deal of evidence about Mr. Taha that supposedly is 24 relevant to Ms. Stewart's state of mind and so on. And if in 25 fact that evidence about Mr. Taha's participation in the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10933 4CF5SAT6 1 charter, which is that February event, is somehow not true, 2 then that's a quite relevant fact. And that fact that Mr. Taha 3 did deny it is something that we found out when we sent people 4 to Egypt. 5 So, I conclude with this, your Honor. 6 Ms. Shellow-Lavine and I -- she from the Justice 7 Department and I as counsel -- have had a lot of experience 8 with the Department in dealing with and getting information 9 from foreign countries over a long period of time. 10 There is, as I said in the prior argument, personnel, 11 there is an officer who used to be Mark Richards -- whether he 12 still holds the job or not, I don't know -- and we understand, 13 that at least since the 1980s when Roger Olsen was Assistant 14 Attorney General in Tax, these informal relationship and 15 information gathering devices have existed. 16 And we are not asking the government to do very much, 17 just make an effort to find out something. 18 THE COURT: All right. The motion for reconsideration 19 is denied. 20 There is nothing that has been presented in the motion 21 for reconsideration that suggests that the Court overlooked any 22 facts or law that was presented to the Court. 23 Among other reasons, the motion for access remains 24 untimely. If anything, the arguments establish that the 25 defendants were aware of reports in 2001, at least with respect SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10934 4CF5SAT6 1 to Taha, that he was in Egypt. They attempted to track those 2 down but never made any of the requests for access that are 3 currently being made now, even though they could have done that 4 with respect both to Mr. Taha and with respect to Mr. Hamza. 5 The requests in this process are plainly untimely now 6 shortly before the close of all of the evidence and for the 7 other reasons that I already explained. 8 Second, there remains no showing that the testimony of 9 these witnesses would be material and favorable to the 10 defendant. As the Court of Appeals explained in Ginsburg, the 11 defendant cannot simply posit the testimony most helpful to the 12 defendant that the witnesses could provide. And for the 13 reasons that I already explained in the prior opinion, there is 14 no showing of the favorable nature of the testimony of these 15 witnesses. In fact, the showing is not plausible at all. 16 The effort to suggest that calling Mr. Taha and 17 Mr. Hamza as witnesses, subject to complete examination by the 18 government, putting aside for one moment whether there is any 19 showing that they would waive their Fifth Amendment privilege, 20 is simply not plausible. It ignores, completely, all of the 21 testimony that Mr. Taha and Mr. Hamza could give that would be 22 unfavorable to the defendants, balanced against a lack of 23 showing of the favorable nature of the testimony. The effort 24 ignores, completely, evidence in the case with respect to the 25 possible testimony by Taha and Hamza about the violent SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10935 4CF5SAT6 1 terrorist activities of the Islamic Group including 2 participation in specific actions, the role of Sheikh Omar 3 Abdel Rahman in the Group, the significance of providing him as 4 a resource for the conspiracy charged in Count Two, the efforts 5 to communicate, in particular by Taha with messages to Sheikh 6 Rahman and getting messages from Sheikh Rahman, as well as 7 first-hand testimony which is only reflected in the telephone 8 conversations. 9 So, it is simply not plausible to suggest that the 10 showing that's been presented to the Court suggests that the 11 testimony by these witnesses would be material and favorable to 12 the defendant. 13 Finally, in addition to the other reasons that I 14 already explained in the prior opinion, there is no plausible 15 showing that these witnesses, if called to testify in an 16 American proceeding, which would include, certainly a 17 deposition, would not assert their rights under American law 18 including their Fifth Amendment right so that there is no basis 19 to reconsider the Court's prior opinion. 20 Next. 21 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. TIGAR: I respectfully object to the Court's 24 plausibility finding. Ms. Stewart has pleaded not guilty to 25 these charges. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10936 4CF5SAT6 1 THE COURT: Oh, absolutely and I mean -- 2 MR. TIGAR: And -- 3 THE COURT: I mean nothing by my statements to 4 undercut that at all. Absolutely not. 5 MR. TIGAR: And I'm not and I was not suggesting that 6 the Court had done that. 7 THE COURT: Oh. 8 MR. TIGAR: My point is simply this. 9 THE COURT: And I was very -- I was very careful to 10 explain that I am simply going upon evidence that's been 11 introduced -- 12 MR. TIGAR: I understand. 13 THE COURT: -- in the case. 14 MR. TIGAR: All I was saying was that, as 15 Ms. Stewart's advocate, the risks that your Honor says we would 16 court by subjecting these people to cross-examination; given 17 the government's theory of the case; are risks that we have 18 chosen to court by making the motion because of our confident 19 belief that Ms. Stewart is in fact not guilty of these charges 20 and that these folks would present, if they testified 21 truthfully, even as adverse witnesses, exculpatory testimony. 22 I say that, your Honor, because the media is present 23 and I, particularly -- which doesn't really bother me one way 24 or another -- but I did not want the Court to think that we 25 agreed with any interpretation that might suggest that I lack SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10937 4CF5SAT6 1 utter confidence in my client's innocence. 2 THE COURT: Oh, I -- just so that it's -- first, you 3 have never suggested that you lack confidence in your client. 4 Second, the analysis that I went through is a common 5 analysis in terms of assessing a potential witness' testimony 6 who is sought in the cases and I am satisfied that you're 7 satisfied that there is nothing that I said that indicates in 8 any way that the Court has any views because I tell the jurors 9 always that the Court has no views with respect to the facts in 10 the case and they're not to assume that the Court has any view 11 of that. And the Court always affords to every defendant the 12 presumption of innocence and the understanding about what the 13 jury's role is in this process. 14 MR. TIGAR: I understand. 15 Had I a doubt about your Honor's impartiality I would 16 be neither so foolish nor so cowardly as to make it by 17 indirection. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 The next issue is the, I believe, questions with 20 respect to the charge. The first issue is what was a theory 21 of -- there was a portion of the charge in which I explained 22 that Mr. Yousry and Ms. Stewart denied knowledge of the 23 conspiracy charged in Count Two. The government wanted to 24 consider whether there was in fact sufficient references in the 25 record with respect to that and both Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10938 4CF5SAT6 1 submitted letters on that. 2 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, having reviewed the transcript 3 pages cited by Ms. Stewart's counsel and Mr. Yousry's counsel, 4 we would ask the Court to change the second phrase of the 5 introductory sentence of that instruction. 6 The instruction currently begins, I believe, and I'm 7 going by yesterday's transcript because I don't have the actual 8 instruction here, but I believe it begins that: Defendants 9 Mohammed Yousry and Lynne Stewart have testified that they were 10 unaware of the existence of the conspiracy charged in Count 11 Two, if such conspiracy existed, and that they never -- oh, 12 sorry -- and testified that they never envisioned that their 13 actions would aid or assist such a conspiracy. 14 That second portion of the sentence, "testified that 15 they never envisioned," and so on, having looked at the 16 testimony we believe that that's a little stronger and somewhat 17 of an argument from the testimony instead of a more literal 18 recitation of the testimony itself and, therefore, we would ask 19 that that portion of the sentence be changed to, "and testified 20 that they did not intend their actions to aid or assist such a 21 conspiracy." 22 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, Mr. Yousry testified directly 23 that he never envisioned that anything he did would aid or 24 bring about kidnappings and murders in a foreign country. 25 I think there is record support for the charge as SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10939 4CF5SAT6 1 discussed yesterday and I will rest on that. 2 MR. TIGAR: We submitted our transcript citations, 3 your Honor, and we take the same position. 4 THE COURT: I reviewed the transcript cites and I 5 think that's a fair -- 6 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, I agree with Mr. Ruhnke that 7 Mr. Yousry testified substantially in those words but 8 Ms. Stewart did not and I don't know whether it would make more 9 sense -- maybe it makes more sense to break the beginning into 10 three sentences and have the first phrase as one sentence that 11 says that both defendants denied the existence of the 12 conspiracy if it existed, and then have two separate sentences, 13 one that says that Mr. Yousry testified that he never 14 envisioned, etc.; Ms. Stewart testified that she did not 15 intend. 16 To us there was a difference between the proposed 17 language of the instruction and Ms. Stewart's testimony at the 18 various pages that were cited to us. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Tigar? 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I submit that the instruction 21 that your Honor proposed to give accurately captures what's in 22 the transcript and I was now -- I didn't know your Honor was 23 waiting for me to say something. I was pulling, if I can sit 24 down here, the transcript itself so that I can read out the 25 various pages that we cited. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10940 4CF5SAT6 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if it would help we have the 2 transcript excerpts here. 3 Essentially, to me, it comes down to a distinction 4 between a word like "know" or "believe" or "intend" which is 5 more narrow than the broader "never envisioned." 6 And it's one thing for Ms. Stewart to have testified 7 specifically that she didn't know -- or whatever the actual 8 words of her testimony were -- but the phrase, "never 9 envisioned" is broader than the phrases used in her testimony. 10 MS. SHELLOW-LAVINE: Your Honor, if we could have just 11 a moment, please? 12 THE COURT: Sure. Or if you wanted to give me 13 something tonight? 14 MR. TIGAR: Yes, your Honor. I am afraid that when I 15 sent the letter I was the one that said that we shouldn't 16 include the transcript pages instead of just putting the pages 17 in. We will give you something overnight, if we may. 18 THE COURT: Okay. The issue is -- 19 MR. TIGAR: And I think in the process also we will 20 discuss with Mr. Ruhnke and Mr. Stern because it may be that 21 there is some formulation that would satisfy everybody rather 22 than splitting up the charge in the way that the government 23 suggests. 24 THE COURT: Fine. 25 MR. TIGAR: If we can do that I think that's handier SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10941 4CF5SAT6 1 than my trying to operate this computer machine right now. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 Ms. Stewart's theory of the case instruction. 4 MR. TIGAR: I submitted it, your Honor, even though 5 you said if it arrived it would be regarded as untimely. I'm 6 not attempting to reargue the Court's ruling. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. TIGAR: The Court has -- we've cited what we've 9 cited. I don't intend to argue the point. 10 THE COURT: Okay, government? 11 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, if you have a specific 12 question I'm happy to answer it. But, as we argued yesterday, 13 we believe that the submission is untimely. 14 Moreover, I would add -- I don't have Ms. Stewart's 15 proposal in front of me -- but my recollection of it is that 16 it's already adequately addressed in instructions being given 17 by the Court. 18 THE COURT: All right. I do think it's untimely for 19 the reasons that I indicated. I also think that it is covered 20 and that it does not add to my instructions already on good 21 faith and the instructions on the code of professional 22 responsibility so that the instructions also are necessary. 23 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I also add that the missing 24 witness instruction that we've sought is probably covered by 25 the decision that your Honor rendered a little while ago. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10942 4CF5SAT6 1 THE COURT: Okay. I agree and for that reason would 2 not give it. 3 Next is the government's letter with respect to Cheek. 4 Does defendant want to respond? 5 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 6 Your Honor, the government's letter begins by 7 characterizing the issue as one involving a mistake of law. 8 That's in the second paragraph. That was the issue we briefed 9 very extensively in response to the government's very first 10 letter and in that response -- and I can remember drafting 11 it -- we discussed at length the reputation of, oh, this is 12 just mistake of law that Justice Brennan used in the Liperota 13 decision, which decision the government had quoted just in 14 passing in its letter. 15 As for the rest of the letter, the government's 16 letter, that is to say Justice Brennan said that the, our 17 holding today no more creates a mistake of law defense than 18 does a statute making knowing receipt of stolen goods unlawful. 19 In both cases, etc., etc. 20 And that's the language that appears in Liperota at 21 471 U.S. at 427, I think. And then the Court cites a number of 22 cases. 23 The remainder of the government's letter, we also 24 respectfully submit, is covered in the very extensive briefing 25 that we all did about this. I would be happy to argue it at SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10943 4CF5SAT6 1 greater length but I submit that our written submissions 2 covered it and we believe that the Court's formulation of 3 yesterday is a correct statement of the Supreme Court's 4 decisions in this regard, especially in light of later cases 5 after Cheek that give one some reason to know where the Court 6 is on this. 7 The government then goes on to say that the Court is 8 suggesting, or that Ms. Stewart might suggest that the SAMs or 9 the regulations were unconstitutional and that she shouldn't be 10 able to do that. 11 We don't suggest it. We won't suggest it. We won't 12 do any of the things that the government suggests we might do. 13 The fact that people talked about the constitution in 14 relation to the SAMs is not something that we introduced into 15 the trial evidence. The government introduced the Federal 16 Register discussion and it was introduced for Ms. Stewart's 17 knowledge, intent and state of mind. She certainly is not 18 saying -- and just what she said from the witness stand -- that 19 they're unconstitutional. It is just not in it. 20 The Court's statement that when lawyers think about or 21 anybody thinks about how shall I speak, the constitution might 22 occur to them, is a perfectly correct statement of the law and 23 in fact reflects what the Supreme Court has said in decisions 24 prior to Cheek. 25 So, we stand on the argument we made and unless the SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10944 4CF5SAT6 1 Court has questions, we think that all of this has been briefed 2 extensively and decided definitively. 3 THE COURT: Ms. Baker? 4 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, may I be excused to work on 5 my redirect? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. FALLICK: Thank you. 8 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar largely relies on 9 prior submissions and I am confident that the Court has read my 10 letter carefully and I don't intend to repeat it. 11 Cheek, obviously, is a later decision than Liperota. 12 I am not directly asserting that Ms. Stewart is claiming 13 mistake of law. I am saying that because Cheek starts from 14 mistake of law and works down from that there is a danger of 15 having the exception to the exception swallow the exception and 16 viscerate the rule, but I've said that in my letter. 17 Mr. Tigar makes reference, without being specific, to 18 cases following Cheek. I'm not aware of any Supreme Court 19 cases since Cheek that provide any greater light on this issue. 20 There are various circuit court cases that apply Cheek always 21 as far as I know in the context of criminal tax offenses and 22 so, I don't -- I mean, obviously the Second Circuit addressed 23 Cheek and distinguished it in the George case which we cited to 24 your Honor on the issue of willfulness, but I'm not really able 25 to respond more specifically to Mr. Tigar's point on that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10945 4CF5SAT6 1 because I don't know what case law is he referring to. 2 If your Honor has any questions I'm happy to answer 3 them, but my letter was as comprehensive as I could make it and 4 I don't simply want to reiterate it. 5 THE COURT: I have read the letter. I have considered 6 the issues. I am still not inclined to change what I gave as 7 the instruction yesterday. 8 The defendant says that she won't raise the arguments 9 that the government is concerned that she might raise, and 10 that's page 4 of the letter. 11 I note that in the letter the government relies on 12 what I have described as the second part of Cheek, which is 13 that it is not a defense to say that the SAMs or the regulation 14 in enacting the SAMs extrapolating from Cheek are 15 unconstitutional or invalid. 16 And I say that in the instruction and the defendant 17 says that that is not something that will be argued. 18 It seems to me that the government cites the first 19 part of Cheek with respect to the subjective good faith 20 argument and that, as the Supreme Court pointed out in the 21 first part of Cheek, these are issues of credibility that then 22 go to the jury about what the individual defendant believed, 23 whether there was a good faith belief as to in Cheek what the 24 law required in that case. 25 And I have gone over this with great care. I instruct SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10946 4CF5SAT6 1 on good faith. No one questions that the instruction on good 2 faith is a fair and correct instruction. I instruct on the 3 SAMs and the regulation enacting the SAMs at the government's 4 request, initially, in order to point out that it is not a 5 defense that the SAMs are, or the regulation is 6 unconstitutional or invalid. 7 Having said that, the defendant says that there should 8 be some qualification with respect to the defendant's, how a 9 defendant, in good faith, interpreted what was there. And that 10 really is the first part of Cheek. 11 I explained that yesterday I instruct the jury on the 12 mental elements for the count, I instruct on good faith, I 13 instruct on the constitutionality of the SAM and the regulation 14 and I believe that the sentence that the government objects to 15 remains a correct sentence and is consistent with the first 16 part of Cheek and not inconsistent with the second part. 17 I have read the government's letter with care and I 18 also note that the defendant says that the defendant would not 19 be making the arguments that the government -- 20 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, actually what Mr. Tigar said a 21 minute ago is that he would not be arguing, as the government 22 fears, that the SAMs are unconstitutional. I accept that. He 23 promised a long time ago that he wasn't going to argue that. 24 We had gone beyond that and expressed a concern that 25 he should not be permitted to argue that because of a concern SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10947 4CF5SAT6 1 about constitutionality certain words were essentially read out 2 of the SAMs by Ms. Stewart. 3 In other words, the SAMs say, quite plainly, that 4 Abdel Rahman doesn't get to communicate with the media through 5 his attorneys or otherwise. And for Ms. Stewart to say, 6 Because I had the constitution in mind I read those words out 7 of the SAMs and then behaved accordingly; that comes back to, 8 the government respectfully submits, full knowledge of what the 9 law says about disagreement with it. And that's where you 10 circle back to mistake of law and the distinction between the 11 first part of Cheek and the second part of Cheek sort of 12 collapses. 13 THE COURT: In the instruction on good faith I also 14 say that disagreement with the law is not good faith. 15 MS. BAKER: I realize that, your Honor, and actually 16 the government is concerned that the later sentence in the 17 constitutionality instruction essentially undermines that 18 because it allows the defendant to implicitly say because I was 19 thinking about constitutionality, when I saw the words "no 20 communication with the media through the lawyers or otherwise," 21 they didn't mean to me what they plainly said. 22 MR. TIGAR: Well, your Honor, I meant what I said when 23 I said that I had read the government's letter and that I 24 didn't -- I don't intend to argue what they fear, at least as I 25 understand it. And I also don't intend to argue that something SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10948 4CF5SAT6 1 contrary to what I understand the Court's instructions to be. 2 Nor do I intend to try to read the Court's instructions to the 3 jury because I'm not supposed to do that. 4 So, beyond that, I don't think I can go. I have tried 5 a fair number of so-called specific intent cases and have never 6 been stopped in the middle of an argument because I have 7 misstated the law. 8 So, if more is required, I will be happy to try and 9 provide it but I don't really see that I should. 10 (Continued on next page) 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10949 4CFMSAT7 1 MS. BAKER: Your Honor, notwithstanding the things 2 that Mr. Tigar has said, we still don't know whether he plans 3 to argue what we have stated in items No. 1 and 2 in the first 4 full paragraph on page 4 of our letter, and we don't know at 5 this point, thus, where the dividing line is, how close to the 6 dividing line is there going to be a basis for an objection. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I always try not to get 8 stopped by having an objection sustained in final argument, and 9 I hope that I can address it there. I think the Court 10 recognized that this is not a good thing for an advocate to do, 11 to happen in closing argument, and I believe in that. 12 MS. BAKER: Perhaps, I could try my question to the 13 Court since Mr. Tigar is not willing to afford any additional 14 information. Were Mr. Tigar to say the things set forth in 15 items 1 and/or 2 of the first full paragraph on page 4 of the 16 government's letter and were the government to object, would 17 the Court sustain the objection? 18 THE COURT: I am not going to answer that hypothetical 19 question. I really believe that the instruction that I have 20 given is the correct instruction on the law. And I also have 21 said that I believe that the instructions are clear and correct 22 under the law and I am not going to raise or answer a 23 hypothetical. I think that the instructions are correct. The 24 defendant says that defendant is not going to make the 25 argument. The government is concerned about -- I think that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10950 4CFMSAT7 1 the instruction is a balanced instruction that is consistent 2 with Cheek. 3 Now, I also said that the instructions have to be read 4 as a whole. There is the mental element with respect to the 5 conspiracy. There is a good-faith defense. There is a 6 specific instruction with respect to the SAMs, and I don't 7 script parties' summations. The government goes first and last 8 and the defendant is in the middle. 9 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I do note that we did object 10 to adding that George, U.S. v. George to the instruction. I 11 did not want to waive my point on that. I'm not quarreling 12 with the Court. I just want to make sure that I have not 13 waived my point. 14 THE COURT: The George addition is plainly justified 15 both under George and under Bryant. 16 MR. TIGAR: I'm not arguing with your Honor. I'm just 17 being careful. 18 THE COURT: It is not clear to me that there is 19 anything further for me to do on this. 20 Anything further? 21 MR. TIGAR: Not from the defense, your Honor. 22 MS. BAKER: No, your Honor. 23 (Adjourned to Thursday, December 16, 2004, at 9:15 24 a.m.) 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10951 1 INDEX OF EXAMINATION 2 Examination of: Page 3 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR 4 Cross By Mr. Morvillo . . . . . . . . . . . 10803 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300