10952 4CG5SAT1 1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT 1 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK 2 -------------------------------------x 2 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, 3 3 v. S1 02 Cr. 395 (JGK) 4 4 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, a/k/a "Abu Omar," 5 a/k/a "Dr. Ahmed," LYNNE STEWART, 5 and MOHAMMED YOUSRY, 6 6 Defendants. 7 -------------------------------------x 7 8 December 16, 2004 8 9:30 a.m. 9 9 10 10 Before: 11 HON. JOHN G. KOELTL 11 12 District Judge 12 13 13 APPEARANCES 14 14 DAVID N. KELLEY 15 United States Attorney for the 15 Southern District of New York 16 ROBIN BAKER 16 CHRISTOPHER MORVILLO 17 ANTHONY BARKOW 17 ANDREW DEMBER 18 Assistant United States Attorneys 18 19 KENNETH A. PAUL 19 BARRY M. FALLICK 20 Attorneys for Defendant Sattar 20 21 MICHAEL TIGAR 21 JILL R. SHELLOW-LAVINE 22 Attorneys for Defendant Stewart 22 23 DAVID A. RUHNKE 23 DAVID STERN 24 Attorneys for Defendant Yousry 25 (Pages 10953-10957 SEALED by order of the Court) SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10958 4CG5SAT1 1 (Trial resumed; in open court; jury not present) 2 THE COURT: Whenever the parties are ready, just let 3 me know. 4 (Pause) 5 THE COURT: The jury needs a couple of minutes and so 6 I will see you shortly. 7 (Recess) 8 THE COURT: Please, be seated, all. Mr. Sattar is on 9 the stand; Mr. Morvillo at the lectern. 10 (Witness resumes the stand) 11 (Continued on next page) 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10959 4CG5SAT1 1 (Jury present) 2 THE COURT: Please be seated, all. 3 Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. 4 THE JURY: Good morning. 5 THE COURT: Good to see you all, as always. 6 A JUROR: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 8 Mr. Fletcher? 9 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you 10 are still under oath. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir. 12 AHMED ABDEL SATTAR, resumed. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 14 CROSS EXAMINATION 15 BY MR. MORVILLO: 16 Q. Mr. Sattar, when we broke yesterday we were just about to 17 start discussing the telephone call that you connected between 18 Rifa'i Taha and Hani, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And that's Government Exhibit 1167X? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Right? 23 Now, that call occurred on September 4th of 2000 24 following your efforts, over the course of several months, to 25 connect Rifa'i Taha and Atia, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10960 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And Hani was a middleman for Atia during this call, is that 3 right? He was the middleman that sent messages to Atia? 4 A. Yes, he was just a go-between. Yes. 5 Q. And, during this call, Rifa'i Taha gave Hani a message to 6 give to Atia, right? 7 A. Yes. He was explaining to him -- 8 Q. I just asked you whether that was the case; yes or no. 9 A. Yes, he just give him; yes. 10 Q. He gave him a message to give to Atia, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And several days later, on September 18th of 2000, you 13 connected another telephone call between Rifa'i Taha and Hani, 14 right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that's Government Exhibit 1170X, in evidence? 17 A. Yes. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display that to the 19 jury, Government Exhibit 1170X? 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. MORVILLO: And, your Honor, I believe that 1170X 22 and 1167X both have limiting instructions. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, these exhibits are received only 25 with respect to Counts Two and Three of the indictment and they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10961 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 are not admitted with respect to the truth of any of the 2 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 3 And yes, you can display 1170X. 4 MR. MORVILLO: I'm sorry, your Honor. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 1170X on the screen, 6 do you see it? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. At page 2 of the transcript, when Hani gets on the phone 9 with Rifa'i Taha after they greet one another, Rifa'i Taha, at 10 line 17, says: Did you give my regards to the man or not? 11 And by 'the man' he was referring to Atia, correct? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And Hani responds: Yes, he received your regards, and he 14 is sending the answer on a paper here. 15 And Rifa'i Taha says: This is fine. 16 Right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And so, it's your understanding that Atia was responding to 19 the message that Taha had previously given to Hani for Atia, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Displaying page 3 from Government Exhibit 1170X, Hani read 23 the message, began to read the message to Rifa'i Taha, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And the first point, at line 8 Hani says: First, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10962 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 concerning the base, the capacity, and the unintelligible 2 obligations. It is a legitimate base. 3 Right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And Hani used the word "qaeda" when he said base, right? 6 A. This is -- qaeda? Yes, means -- qaeda could be translated 7 to principal or a place. We said qaeda sharia, and this is 8 spelled S-H-A-R-I-A. 9 Q. Mr. Sattar, my question was, did he use the word "qaeda"? 10 A. Yes, he used the word qaeda but, you know, there is a qaeda 11 sharia, you have to understand, that means legitimate base. 12 Q. And at line 13 Hani stated to Rifa'i Taha: What happened 13 in Manfaloot, Tema, Qena and Luxor and others was executed 14 through it. 15 And Taha responded: God bless. 16 Is that correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And continuing with the message from Atia to Taha on page 19 4, Hani stated, at line 9: Secondly, regarding the 20 preparation, we hope that our brothers will help us to surprise 21 our enemy with a fatal attack, by God's will, or at least it 22 will be a step forward to a happy ending, by God's will. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did I read that right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10963 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, over the course of the time that 2 you were speaking to Rifa'i Taha, sometimes he called you on a 3 cell phone, right? 4 A. He called me, I believe I spoke to him once on a cell 5 phone. 6 Q. You used a cell phone once to talk to him are you saying? 7 A. I spoke to him once on a cell phone, yes. 8 Q. But what was he using to call you? 9 A. What he was using? 10 Q. Yes. 11 A. To call me? I don't know. 12 Q. Well, sometimes you know that he was calling you through 13 the internet, right? 14 A. Yes, I believe that sometimes he was calling me through the 15 internet, yes. So I really don't know about what kind of 16 equipment he has. I really don't know. 17 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, the last call that we just discussed was 18 on September 18th of 2000? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. On September 21st of 2000, Al-Jazeera broadcast a 21 conference that showed Osama Bin Laden, Rifa'i Taha, and Ayman 22 Al-Zawahiri, her recalling for the release of Sheikh Abdel 23 Rahman, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you saw that on Al-Jazeera, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10964 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes, I saw that on the, what do you call it, the news 2 summary; yes. 3 Q. You saw Rifa'i Taha participating in a conference with two 4 other terrorist leaders, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you knew at the time that Ayman Zawahiri was a leader 7 of another Egyptian terrorist group called Egyptian Islamic 8 Jihad or EIJ, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you were aware of the fact that Zawahiri had joined 11 forces with Bin Laden and Bin Laden's terrorist organization 12 Al-Qaeda, right? 13 A. I know they were together, yes, according to the thing that 14 I read; yes. 15 Q. And in fact you knew that from what you had read Zawahiri 16 was considered to be a close associate of Osama Bin Laden's, 17 right? 18 A. I am not sure, you know, of that, but I know they were -- I 19 mean, together. How close they were, I'm not quite sure. 20 Q. Well, you also knew that Ayman Al-Zawahiri was on the same 21 list with the United States Department of Treasury that Rifa'i 22 Taha was on, right? 23 A. Yes. There were so many names on that list, yes. 24 Q. And Zawahiri's name was one of them, right? 25 A. One of them, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10965 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And the list we are referring to is a list of specifically 2 designated terrorists, right? 3 A. Yes, it was about 90 -- 99.9 percent of it Muslim 4 organizations and Muslim people, yes. 5 Q. And at this time, in September of 2000, you knew that Osama 6 Bin Laden had been indicted for the embassy bombings, right? 7 A. Yes, I read -- I read the indictment, yes. 8 Q. And you also knew that Bin Laden had issued fatwahs calling 9 for the deaths of Americans, right? 10 A. Yes, it was covered by the news. Yes. 11 Q. And you also knew that Rifa'i Taha and Zawahiri had both 12 signed Bin Laden's February 1998 fatwah calling for the murder 13 of Americans, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And while you were watching on September 21st, Rifa'i Taha 16 called you on the telephone, didn't he? 17 A. Yes, with our -- yes. 18 Q. And you told him that you were watching him on television 19 in what you called the victory conference, right? 20 A. This is what the name of, I did not call it the victory 21 conference, this is what they call it on TV and this is how 22 they refer to it. 23 It was called the victory conference. I did not give 24 it that name. 25 Q. And the transcript of that telephone conversation between SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10966 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 yourself and Rifa'i Taha was introduced into evidence in this 2 case, right? 3 A. Yes, I believe so. Yes. 4 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 5 Government Exhibit 1173X? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may I confer with 8 Mr. Morvillo? 9 THE COURT: Yes, sure. 10 (Counsel conferring) 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has reminded me 12 that this call also received a limiting instruction. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Ladies and gentlemen, this transcript and the 15 recording are received solely with respect to Counts Two and 16 Three of the indictment and it cannot be considered for the 17 truth of any of the matters asserted with respect to 18 Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 19 BY MR. MORVILLO: 20 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is the transcript of that conversation 21 that you had with Rifa'i Taha, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And what you said to him was, at line 4, after greeting 24 him: I am watching you now, Sheikh. How are you? 25 And he was surprised: It sounds like you're watching. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10967 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Right? 2 And he said: How are you watching me? 3 And you said: On Al-Jazeera in the, uh, con... 4 He said: Al-Jazeera. 5 And you said: In this victory conference... the 6 victory conference. 7 And he said: Yeah. 8 That's the conference with Bin Laden, Zawahiri and 9 Taha, right? 10 A. Yes. When he called me it was just broadcast, I mean, the 11 news summary was broadcasting. 12 Q. And so, he said, oh, I'm going to go watch it too and I'll 13 call you back, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And a videotape of that conference was played here in 16 court, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In the course of that conference Sheikh Abdel Rahman's son 19 Mohammed is heard, stating in the background, Let's go spill 20 blood. Right? 21 A. Yes, I heard it here in the courtroom; yes. It was the 22 first time, by the way, to see that whole thing for me. 23 Q. And you knew that Mohammed Abdel Rahman was in Afghanistan, 24 right? 25 A. I knew he was in Afghanistan, yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10968 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And by saying, Let's go spill blood, you understood that 2 Mohammed Abdel Rahman was calling for murder to force the 3 United States of America to free his convicted terrorist leader 4 of a father, right? 5 A. Can you repeat that again? 6 Q. You knew that by stating, by saying, Let's go spill blood, 7 Mohammed Abdel Rahman was calling for murder to force the 8 United States government to free his convicted terrorist leader 9 father Omar Abdel Rahman, right? 10 A. I'm not going to water down his words. His words is his 11 words. I'm not going to just justify his words or try to -- 12 his words is his words, Mr. Morvillo. He was calling to spill 13 the blood. I read that in the newspapers, I did not see it on 14 TV at the time. And for the first time I seen that was here 15 when he introduced that videotape. 16 Q. Right. But you had read it previously in the newspapers, 17 right? 18 A. Yes, I did read it in the newspaper. I'm not quite sure 19 how many days after that. 20 Q. Now, shortly after this date after you saw this video 21 conference, fighting -- 22 A. You mean after I saw the news summary? 23 Q. After you saw the news summary. 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You didn't see the entire conference, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10969 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. It was just about a minute. They showed Rifa'i Taha and 2 Al-Zawahiri and Bin Laden and said they were calling for the 3 release of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 4 This is what was broadcast on TV that night and this 5 is what I saw on TV that night; yes. 6 Q. And then, on the heels of that, in the middle east fighting 7 broke out at this time, right? 8 A. Yeah. It was the end of -- 9 Q. The end of September? 10 A. I believe, yes, toward a little -- you know -- 11 Q. I'm not trying to connect -- 12 A. I'm just trying to remember what date was the conference 13 and -- I believe it was on the 21st? 14 Q. Yes. 15 A. Okay so, it was around that time, yes. 16 Q. It was towards the end of September, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Do you recall when Ariel Sharon went to Al-Aqsa mosque? 19 A. Of course I do. 20 Q. What was the date, do you recall? 21 A. It was toward either September 28 or September 20 -- around 22 the end of September. 23 Q. This visit by Sharon to Al-Aqsa triggered violence, right? 24 A. Triggered demonstrations and violence against Palestinians, 25 yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10970 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And Al-Aqsa mosque, in the Islamic religion, is a very 2 important site, correct? 3 A. In the Muslim beliefs we consider it the third holiest 4 place in Islam. 5 Q. That is where it is said that Mohammed ascended to heaven 6 on a ladder of golden light, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Al-Aqsa is where the Dome of the Rock is, right? 9 A. I have never been to Al-Aqsa mosque but it is a compound, 10 you know, including the Dome of the Rock and the mosque itself 11 but I can't tell you anything other than that. 12 I know it's holy, you know, for us as Muslims and the 13 Dome of the Rock and the mosque right there. 14 Q. And it is also very important to Jewish people, right? 15 A. Yes. They have the wailing wall and I believe it is in the 16 western corner of that -- I don't know, that held up -- or a 17 mountain. You know, I know it's a higher ground. 18 I know it's important for -- the western corner for 19 the Jews, and the compound itself of Al-Aqsa and the Dome of 20 the Rock is important for the Muslims. 21 Q. Well, the Rock is also where it is believed that Abraham 22 nearly sacrificed his son, right? 23 A. I'm not quite sure. This is, you know, we believe as 24 Muslims that Abraham sacrificed -- or tried to sacrifice his 25 son in Mecca. It is not there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10971 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 Q. In the Muslim faith? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Now, after Sharon's visit you said there were 4 demonstrations and fighting broke out, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that's because Sharon's visit was viewed as an 7 instigation of the Muslims, right? 8 A. It was viewed as an instigation of Muslims. The way he 9 went there was about, surrounded with so many Israelis police 10 or military personnel, it was considered as an invasion of that 11 sacred ground; yes. 12 Q. And fighting broke out? 13 A. I can't say fighting. I could say demonstration broke out 14 and -- 15 Q. Not on that day but subsequent to that, fighting did break 16 out in this area, right? 17 A. Fighting never stopped in that area, Mr. Morvillo, so I 18 mean -- but, you know, it was -- it was hotter than ever in 19 that part of the world, yes. 20 Q. Many people were killed as a result of the fighting? 21 A. Many Palestinians were killed, yes. 22 Q. And do you know what day the fighting actually flared up? 23 Was it the same day as the visit or the next day? 24 A. I am not quite sure. I know it was, that whole period was 25 just from first day, you know, there were demonstrations, they SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10972 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 were shooting by the Israelis, you know, they started first 2 with rubber bullets and, you know, they went with other -- they 3 used other methods. 4 But, you know, the exact date I really don't know. I 5 know it's at the end of September this whole thing just -- the 6 whole thing, you know, it just started. 7 Q. Well, as you said, it had been going on for a while but 8 this was a flare-up in the fighting, right? 9 A. It was just -- yes. 10 Q. And you told us on direct about the horrible event where a 11 young Palestinian child was killed in a crossfire by Israeli 12 soldiers, right, and that was caught on videotape? 13 A. Yes, I seen that on the, you know, I mean in life on TV, 14 actually. 15 Q. So you saw it as it happened? 16 A. Yes, it was broadcast live on TV for the first time. That 17 was -- that's why the effect of it was so -- was so big and -- 18 Q. When did that happen? 19 A. That exact date? I'm not -- I'm not quite sure when the 20 exact date was. 21 Q. It happened on September 30th, right, 2000? 22 A. Huh? 23 Q. It happened on September 30th of 2000? 24 A. It could be, yes. 25 Q. And when you saw that you were outraged? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10973 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. I was outraged, yes. 2 This has affected me very much, you know. I mean I 3 had a son -- my kids were almost the same age and, you know, it 4 really affected me, yes. But not just, I cannot just say that 5 incident. You know, the whole thing it was -- it was very 6 emotional, you know. I mean, especially for the first time 7 in -- I mean, that I could remember to see something live on TV 8 like that. 9 Q. It was all over the media, right? 10 A. It was, yes, it was all over. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a moment? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. As far as the timing of this shooting, Mr. Sattar, it 14 happened within days of Sharon's visit to Al-Aqsa, right? It 15 didn't happen before the visit? 16 A. Of the shooting of this boy? 17 Q. This boy. 18 A. Yes, it happened, you know, the theory it did not happen, 19 but within two days is what I stated before -- within two days 20 of demonstrations there were 72 Palestinians already dead and 21 it was broadcast everywhere. You know, you seen people, 22 hundreds of people who were injured so this is how I say, you 23 know, it was a very emotional time. 24 Q. And in response to this violence in the Middle East, you 25 and Rifa'i Taha concluded that you should write and publish a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10974 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 powerful statement in Sheikh Abdel Rahman's name, right? 2 A. Yes, I believe there was a conversation between me and 3 Rifa'i Taha and he said, you know, it will be good to revive 4 the Sheikh's name, and -- 5 Q. And you decided to use his name because people would pay 6 attention if the statement came from Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, 7 right? 8 A. Yes, as the suggestion -- the suggestion was to write 9 something from the Sheikh's name but not only for that occasion 10 but, you know, on a regular basis. 11 That was his suggestion, you know, and put it on the 12 outside just to keep the Sheikh's name in public. 13 Q. Well, you knew that if Ahmed Sattar said kill Jews 14 everywhere the media probably wouldn't pick it up, right? 15 A. The media probably would not -- 16 Q. Pick it up. 17 A. Probably they will. I mean -- at least in my community, 18 I'm known in my community. But if anybody else? 19 Q. It wouldn't be broadcast all over the Middle East, right? 20 A. No, probably it will not be broadcast all over the Middle 21 East. 22 Q. Now, you and Rifa'i Taha discussed this fatwah over the 23 telephone, correct? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you directed Rifa'i Taha to draft the statement and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10975 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 send it to you, right? 2 A. I directed Rifa'i Taha to -- you know, as what I said, I 3 said there was a conversation, I believe, the day before and, 4 you know, and on that day, yes, I spoke to him and I told him, 5 yes, write it. 6 Q. And you told him to do it as quickly as possible, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And the telephone call on which you told him to draft the 9 fatwah is in evidence in this case, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 1179X, in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, I have put on the screen Government 15 Exhibit 1179X; do you see that on your screen? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. This is a transcript of a telephone conversation with 18 yourself and Rifa'i Taha on October 3rd of 2000, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And at line 7 you state: I couldn't hear you at all. 21 Okay, fine. Rely on God and go ahead with the issue we 22 discussed yesterday. 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And he says: Which is? 25 And you said: Which is writing the eh, writing eh, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10976 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 writing something. 2 And Rifa'i Taha says, at line 11: Ah, really, you 3 swear? 4 And on the next page, page 2 of Government Exhibit 5 1179X you say: Yes, yes. 6 And he says: God bless you. 7 And you say: Rely on God and do it. But it has to be 8 as soon as possible, meaning I want to see it tomorrow, God 9 willing. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Right? 12 After this call you spoke with Rifa'i Taha two or 13 three more times that day, October 3rd of 2000, right? 14 A. Probably, yes. 15 Q. And he told you that he was continuing to work on writing 16 the statement, right? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And those calls are in evidence here, are they not? 19 A. Yes. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 21 Exhibit 1180 and 1181, in order? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. MORVILLO: In evidence. 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a phone conversation between you, 25 Government Exhibit 1180X, on October 3rd of 2000, at 3:17 in SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10977 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 the afternoon; and directing your attention to page 3 at line 2 10, Rifa'i Taha says: Okay, I am almost finished with the 3 man's statement but I just got busy with the program. 4 He's referring to 'the man' is Omar Abdel Rahman, 5 right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then Government Exhibit 1181X, also on October 3rd of 8 2000, a call between yourself and Rifa'i Taha and others. And 9 directing your attention to page 5 of that transcript, at the 10 bottom, Rifa'i Taha says: Hmm, okay, fine. All right, Sheikh, 11 you will get mail from me tonight or tomorrow morning. 12 And then, continuing on to the other page, onto the 13 next page which is page 6 of Government Exhibit 1181X you 14 respond: God willing. Shall I call the brother and have him 15 prepare it? 16 And Rifa'i Taha says to you: Ha. Ah, which brother. 17 And you say: Eh, eh, Abu A... Yassir. 18 And Taha says: No, no. When it is complete. 19 And you say: So, we send it to him when it is 20 complete. 21 And Taha says: Yeah, regular as if it is eh, it 22 doesn't work to tell him. 23 And you say on line 7: I want it by Friday so it can 24 be read. 25 And Taha responds: Okay, no problem, he can SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10978 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 distribute it in a minute, he is good at that. The advantage 2 of this thing is, once something is dictated, it can be issued 3 right away. 4 You are talking about Yassir Al-Sirri here, right? 5 A. Yes. The name 'Yassir' is Yassir Al-Sirri; yes. 6 Q. And what you had started to say at line 3 was Abu Ammar? 7 A. Yes. I was going to say Abu Ammar but I said Yassir, yes. 8 Q. You said Yassir? 9 A. Yes, that's his name. 10 Q. And Abu Ammar and Yassir Al-Sirri are the same person? 11 A. Yes, they're the same person. 12 Q. He is the person that runs the Islamic Observation Center? 13 A. Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a moment, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 Q. The next day, October 4th of 2000, you received an e-mail 17 from Rifa'i Taha containing the ghost-written fatwah, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you read it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you made some small changes to it? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And then you told Al-Sirri about the fatwah, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And, in fact, you read it to him over the telephone? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10979 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And the call in which you read him the fatwah is in 3 evidence in this case, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 6 Exhibit 1182X, in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 Q. Mr. Sattar, is Government Exhibit 1182X in evidence on your 9 screen? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And this is a transcript of the telephone conversation that 12 you had with Al-Sirri on October 4th of 2000? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Directing your attention to page 2 of that transcript, at 15 line 17 you state: Yes, I am going to send you a report, if 16 God is willing, and you publicize it, God the Almighty is 17 willing. 18 And Al-Sirri responds: Okay, good news. God is 19 willing. 20 And then you said: Okay. 21 And he says: Where is it from? Where from? 22 And then on page 3 at the top, line 1, you state: 23 From here, where we are. 24 And Al-Sirri says: Ah. 25 And you said: From the doctor. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10980 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 You are referring to Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And Al-Sirri says: Okay, good. 4 And you state: Regarding the latest incidents, the 5 Palestinian events. 6 And he says: Yes. 7 Right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You are referring to the fatwah? That's the statement you 10 are talking about, right? 11 A. Yes. I'm telling him I'm going to send him, yes, the 12 fatwah that Rifa'i Taha wrote; yes. 13 Q. And then, directing your attention to page 8 of Government 14 Exhibit 1182X, Yassir Al-Sirri at line 12 says: Okay, fine. 15 So, do you want it to be directly distributed... 16 And you said. I want it, I want it... 17 And he says: Or do you want it to be distributed and 18 put in the website. 19 And you stated, in response, at line 15: To be 20 distributed and put in the site for the news agencies. 21 What you are talking about here is the fatwah, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you are talking about, you are telling Mr. Al-Sirri 24 that you want it to be posted on the IOC website and you want 25 it to be distributed to news agencies? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10981 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. And by IOC I'm referring to the Islamic Observation Center, 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. At line 16 Al-Sirri states: Okay, I am asking you a 6 question and you are not paying attention, this is what I am 7 getting at... 8 And then he continues: It is going to go everywhere, 9 don't you worry... 10 And you said: Yes, yes. 11 And he responds: It is going to reach every location, 12 and it is going to get extra attention as well. Meaning that 13 wherever it goes, we are going to make certain that it gets the 14 necessary attention. 15 And you said: Yes. 16 And he says to you: My point is... what I -- I'm 17 saying... 18 At line 7 he continues: Do we put it out as a 19 statement? Or put it as a statement from the Observation 20 Center, carrying a statement from Sheikh Omar? 21 And you respond, at line 9: No, as an announcement 22 from the Observation Center, that includes a statement for 23 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman. 24 And he responds: Okay. 25 And you said, at line 12: In other words: "We've SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10982 4CG5SAT1 Sattar - cross 1 received this statement from the United States of America, from 2 the honorable Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman." 3 And Al-Sirri says: Okay, fine. 4 You're talking about the fatwah that Rifa'i Taha 5 drafted, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 (Continued on next page) 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10983 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Then during this conversation, starting on page 14 of the 2 transcript of Government Exhibit 1182X, you begin to read him 3 the fatwah that you are going to send to him, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it is your understanding that what is in italics in 6 this transcript are Quranic verses? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Then you read him the text of the fatwah. Starting at line 9 11 you read: These barbaric acts committed by the swines and 10 apes are not surprising. They killed the prophets and they are 11 known to be bloodshedders. Their ancient and modern history 12 are their best witness. 13 By the swines and apes, you're referring to Jewish 14 people, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 24 you continue reading: I, as a Muslim scholar, 17 and because of the limited time, I appeal this -- I appeal to 18 my brothers, the scholars all over our Islamic world. In 19 numbers, 1, you state: It is numbered. And you then continue 20 reading the fatwah: From our Islamic world, to portray their 21 role and issue a unanimous fatwah calling on the Islamic nation 22 to mandate the killing the Jews wherever they are, 23 unintelligible, and wherever they are found. They have 24 occupied our land, they defiled our holy places, killed our 25 men, and destroyed our homes. Therefore, it is the duty of SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10984 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 every capable Muslim to wage the Jihad against them. 2 Did I read that correctly? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That's at page 15 of Government Exhibit 1182X, right, 5 Mr. Sattar? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And then on page 16 of Government Exhibit 1182X you got 8 interrupted during your conversation by another call at line 4, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And then you continued reading. At line 7 you read: "And 12 if the people of this country are incapable of performing this 13 ordinance, then this becomes the duty of other Muslims. And it 14 has been proved conclusively that our people in Palestine 15 cannot undertake this task on their own, especially after 16 having sacrificed, and they are still sacrificing tens, and 17 even hundreds of martyrs. Hence, the Jihad today is the duty 18 of the entire nation until Palestine and the Aqsa mosque are 19 liberated, until the Jews are driven to their graves or out to 20 the countries where they had come from. 21 Did I read that correctly, Mr. Sattar? 22 A. Yes, you did, Mr. Morvillo. 23 Q. Then you continued reading at line 16, No. 2: The Muslim 24 youth everywhere, especially in Palestine, Egypt, Syria, 25 Lebanon, and Jordan, as nations neighboring the Aqsa mosque, SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10985 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 they have to fight the Jews by all possible means of Jihad, 2 either by killing them as individuals or by targeting their 3 interests and their advocates, as much as they can. 4 By advocates, you were referring to those who support 5 the Jews, right? 6 A. This is what it says in there, yes. 7 Q. Continuing at line 20: For God almighty said: Fight and 8 slay the unbelievers wherever ye find and seize them, beleaguer 9 them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war, 10 meaning to assassinate them, wherever you find them. 11 Did I read that correctly? 12 A. Yes you did. 13 Q. Displaying page 17 of Government Exhibit 1182X in evidence, 14 at line 30 you continue reading: Our Muslim brothers, trust in 15 God, lift up the banner of Jihad, and my God be with you, he 16 will reward you. Your brother, Omar Abdel Rahman, eh, eh, in 17 the USA's prisons, and a scholar of the Azhar. 18 That's how the fatwah ended, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Now, you claim, Mr. Sattar, that when you were involved in 21 disseminating and drafting and publishing this fatwah that you 22 were just crying out in response to violence in the Middle 23 East, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And you testified that you really did not intend for anyone SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10986 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 to take it literally and go out and kill people, right? 2 A. No, I did not intend to do that. 3 Q. But it is a fact, is it not, Mr. Sattar, that you drafted 4 this statement with the leader of a terrorist network? 5 A. Yes, it is a fact. 6 Q. A person that you knew was in Afghanistan with Osama Bin 7 Laden? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. A person that you knew was considered by the United States 10 to be a threat to national security? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. A person that you knew who had written a book attempting to 13 justify the murder of civilians? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. A person that you knew who was trying to contact the 16 military leader of the Islamic Group in Egypt? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And a person who you knew who had signed Osama Bin Laden's 19 fatwah, calling for the murder of Americans, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You wanted people to take to the streets all over the world 22 and kill Jewish people everywhere, right? 23 A. No, I did not. 24 Q. That's what the statement says, Mr. Sattar. 25 A. Mr. Morvillo, as what I said, it was a cryout. I was SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10987 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 screaming. I was crying. If anybody was being killed, it was 2 the Palestinians. What I saw was enough for me to cry. 3 Q. Mr. Sattar -- 4 A. I did not intend to kill anybody. And if you look at the 5 conversation before that, before this writing of these ugly and 6 hateful words, you will see that the intent was just to revive 7 the Sheikh's name and also the emotion involved when I seen it. 8 When I seen those words I should have thought more careful 9 about it. But I was in a very -- I was very emotional. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar -- 11 A. Mr. Morvillo, let me continue, please. I was very 12 emotional. I read these words. I should have paid more 13 attention to it. I should have never let them out, but I did. 14 In eight years, you've been listening to my conversations. You 15 have been watching me. The government been all over me. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I'm objecting at this 17 point. 18 THE COURT: I believe the question has been answered. 19 Q. Mr. Sattar, people cry all the time about atrocities in the 20 world, but they don't issue fatwahs in the name of convicted 21 terrorist leaders, do they, calling for mass genocide? 22 A. If you watch what's gone on in the Middle East, this is an 23 everyday event, fatwahs being issued by Jewish rabbis calling 24 for the killing of Muslims, right here in the United States. 25 It was fatwahs here to say, pay a dollar to kill an Arab. We SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10988 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 receive many words like this in our community. This is 2 something going on. As what I always say to my kids, sticks 3 and stones may break bones, but words will never hurt you. I 4 did not mean to hurt anybody, Mr. Morvillo. I did not mean to 5 hurt anybody. 6 Q. But these were words by a convicted terrorist leader that 7 you issued to get an impact calling for mass genocide, yes or 8 no, Mr. Sattar? 9 A. I cannot just say yes or no. I did not mean to mass 10 genocide anybody. I did not mean to kill anybody. As I said, 11 I was crying out loud, Mr. Morvillo. 12 Q. After you finished disseminating this fatwah, you resumed 13 trying to connect Rifa'i Taha and Atia, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And in fact, Rifa'i Taha told you to tell Atia about the 16 fatwah, right? 17 A. Rifa'i Taha told -- yes. 18 Q. In fact, he told you that he wanted to tell Atia to take 19 courage, the man issued a fatwah, you are supposed to go by it, 20 right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And in fact, as you testified on your direct examination, 23 you did tell the leader of the Islamic Group military wing in 24 Egypt about the fatwah mandating the murder of Jews and their 25 supporters, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10989 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. I mentioned to him, yes. 2 Q. And then you learned that the Islamic Group had issued a 3 statement in which it stated that it was going to carry out 4 Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah to kill Jews, right? 5 A. Yes, I read that, yes. 6 Q. And that meant that the Islamic Group was stating that it 7 was going to go out and start killing Jews and their 8 supporters, right? 9 A. No. It meant just, you know, another thing, you know, that 10 the Islamic Group is issuing -- like I told you, they have been 11 issuing in sequence like this, threats, things like this, on 12 some events. But I took it as a propaganda, is how I took it. 13 Q. But they stated that they were going to carry out Sheikh 14 Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah mandating the killing of Jews, 15 right? 16 A. Yes, they said that. 17 Q. And Rifa'i Taha in fact is the person who told you about 18 this statement, right? 19 A. I am not sure if he is the one who told me or I seen it in 20 the newspaper. 21 Q. But it was published in the newspaper, right? 22 A. I seen it. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, would this be a convenient 24 time to take a break? 25 THE COURT: Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10990 4CGMSAT2 1 Ladies and gentlemen, we will break for ten minutes. 2 Please, please remember my continuing instructions. Please 3 don't talk about this case at all. Always remember to keep an 4 open mind until you have heard all of the evidence, I've 5 instructed you on the law, you've gone to the jury room to 6 begin your deliberations. 7 Have a good break. See you shortly. 8 All rise, please. 9 (Jury not present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar can step down. 11 We will take a break. By the way, when jurors come in 12 in the morning, they greet me with good morning. At least one 13 juror also mouths good morning, which wouldn't be reflected in 14 the transcript, so I bring that to your attention. 15 MR. PAUL: Juror No. 4. 16 THE COURT: No. More than that. 17 MR. PAUL: That's the one I heard. 18 THE COURT: See you shortly. 19 (Recess) 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, just before the break, your 21 Honor, Mr. Morvillo asked the following questions. And then 22 you learned -- 23 THE COURT: Hold on one moment, please. 24 Please be seated, all. 25 MR. TIGAR: And then you learned that the Islamic SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10991 4CGMSAT2 1 Group had issued a statement in which it stated that it was 2 going to carry out Sheikh Omar Abdel's Rahman's fatwah to kill 3 Jews, right? The witness answered yes. 4 Unless I'm mistaken, that question to which Mr. Sattar 5 agreed is based on Government Exhibit 1189X, which was offered 6 only as to Counts 2 and 3 and cannot be used against 7 Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry for the truth of any matter asserted. 8 We would therefore request that the jurors be 9 instructed that any testimony about any statement that the 10 Islamic Group said was going to carry out the fatwah is not 11 received for the truth as to Ms. Stewart and Mr. Yousry. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Morvillo. 13 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, it was a question and an 14 answer. I didn't reference the transcript. I didn't quote 15 from the transcript. There is no reason for a limiting 16 instruction, in the government's view. 17 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the witness simply said he 18 heard the hearsay. That was the question and answer. 19 MR. MORVILLO: Therefore, your Honor, it is admitted 20 for his state of mind. 21 MR. TIGAR: Which is exactly my objection, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Then I'll tell the jury that the witness's 23 testimony is admitted with respect to what he heard. What he 24 read is admitted solely with respect to his state of mind. 25 MR. TIGAR: And not for the truth of anything that he SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10992 4CGMSAT2 1 admitted be read or heard, at least with respect to Ms. Stewart 2 and Mr. Yousry. Because that was the -- 3 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the government would object 4 to that instruction. There has been an enormous amount of 5 testimony about what people have read and what people have seen 6 and what people have heard and what people knew, and you have 7 not parsed and given limiting instructions every time there has 8 been that kind of testimony. And I think it is inappropriate 9 for the Court to highlight this one section of testimony and 10 give that limiting instruction here. It is contained in the 11 answer anyway. What he said was, that's what I read. 12 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, the reason that it is 13 important is not simply the kill the Jews inflammatory part, 14 but that because in fact the conversation in question is with 15 Mr. Taha, and Taha is telling Mr. Sattar about something that 16 he read. 17 So the very idea that this is some IG statement or 18 that it has any dignity or truth to it is extremely attenuated 19 because it is Mr. Taha saying that he read something or heard 20 something in the media. So it comes to us twice burdened. And 21 that, I respectfully suggest, was the reason for the limiting 22 instruction in the first place. 23 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the reference to Rifa'i 24 Taha was that he was the person who told you about the 25 statement. That was the question. And the answer was: I SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10993 4CGMSAT2 1 believe I don't recall. The answer was: I am not sure if he 2 is the one who told me or I seen it in the newspaper. 3 "Q But it was published in the newspaper, right? 4 "A I seen it." 5 So his testimony is all about what he read in the 6 newspaper. The jury has been repeatedly instructed about 7 newspaper. 8 THE COURT: I'll give the instruction that the 9 testimony as to what he read is admissible solely with respect 10 to the witness's state of mind and not for the truth of any of 11 the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart and 12 Mr. Yousry. And it is not a fair response to say that the jury 13 has been repeatedly instructed. 14 In going over the charge conference, I rejected a 15 suggestion that I should give a blanket instruction to the jury 16 with respect to newspaper articles. And the government agreed 17 with that because, as I have repeatedly said, you have to look 18 at all of the circumstances with respect to individual 19 articles, some of which have been adopted admissions or 20 sufficiently identified as coconspirator statements, alleged 21 coconspirator statements, or some have gone in without 22 objection. 23 There have been other arguments with respect to the 24 possible other grounds for admissibility of specific articles, 25 and I dealt with each of those issues when they came up SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10994 4CGMSAT2 1 specifically. 2 So when an objection is raised, I deal with it on the 3 merits. And I have dealt with each of the objections 4 carefully, and I believe that the jury can follow limiting 5 instructions with the same care with which I give them when 6 asked. So I'll give the instruction I was asked to give at 7 this point. 8 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, will that instruction include 9 the statement that it is admissible only as to Counts 2 and 3? 10 I would ask that that be included. That's been -- 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, the fatwah is not related 12 to Counts 2 and 3. That's in evidence against all defendants. 13 MR. TIGAR: To the extent the instruction is based on 14 Government Exhibit 1189X, that was part of the Government 15 Exhibit 1189X instruction. I take no position, however -- 16 THE COURT: His testimony was broader and not limited 17 to 1189X. 18 MR. RUHNKE: My recollection is faulty, your Honor. I 19 apologize. 20 THE COURT: That's okay. 21 The instruction will be the testimony that the witness 22 gave just before the break as to what he read is admitted 23 solely for the witness's state of mind and not for the truth of 24 the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 25 Satisfactory? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10995 4CGMSAT2 1 If Mr. Sattar could take the stand. 2 Mr. Fletcher brought to my attention that the jury 3 administrator brought to his attention that there is the 4 possibility of a snowstorm over the weekend. So we have to 5 deal with a number for the jurors to call and I can deal with 6 that later on in the day. I just wanted to bring that to your 7 attention. 8 Let's bring in the jury. 9 (Jury present) 10 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 11 Mr. Fletcher. 12 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 13 still under oath. 14 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 15 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, just before the 16 break the testimony by the witness about what he read is 17 admitted solely for the witness's state of mind and not for the 18 truth of the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or 19 Mr. Yousry. 20 Mr. Morvillo, you may proceed. 21 BY MR. MORVILLO: 22 Q. Directing your attention, Mr. Sattar, to October 6 of 2000? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Did there come a time on that date when you had a telephone 25 conversation with Yousef Odeh about someone distributing Sheikh SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10996 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Omar Abdel Rahman's fatwah? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Is that call in evidence? 4 A. Yes. 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 6 Government Exhibit 1185X in evidence? 7 THE COURT: Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I have a minute? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 Q. Mr. Sattar, can you see Government Exhibit 1185X on the 11 screen? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And this is a call between yourself and Yousef Odeh? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. On October 6, 2000? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And at line 2 Mr. Odeh says to you: Yeah, a person was 18 distributing a pamphlet, and Sheikh Mohamed Mousa gave it to 19 me. He told me, what is that? Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman wants 20 to kill the Zionists every where? And then in response it says 21 in brackets raging. You say to him: Tell him, tell him, tell 22 him -- in English you say, to shut his fucking mouth, okay? 23 And you testified on direct, right, that you don't 24 curse very often? 25 A. I don't curse very often. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10997 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And your point was that you were very upset? 2 A. Yes. The whole situation was just what I said before, this 3 whole period was just very upsetting for me is I was said. I 4 was glued to the TV watching everything. Just a very emotional 5 period. 6 Q. It was your understanding that there was another Sheikh who 7 was not condoning Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman's statement, and you 8 were telling him that he should shut his fucking mouth? 9 A. This is what I was saying, yes. 10 Q. Now, at page 3 of that transcript, Mr. Sattar, at line 3, 11 Yousef Odeh said to you: He told me, wasn't Sheikh Omar saying 12 that you can't do anything in America, because it will violate 13 the oath of the visa? Then I told him that Zionists are 14 everywhere. You can't kill them in America. 15 What is the oath of the visa? 16 A. Once, when you have -- when you as an individual, Muslim, 17 come to a place, whether somebody's house or somebody else's 18 country or any place that you enter, the people who let you in, 19 you should not do anything bad to them. This is how I 20 understand. 21 Q. When you're a guest in someone else's house or someone 22 else's country, you shouldn't kill people there? 23 A. Shouldn't do anything, kill them, steal their money, do 24 anything bad to them. 25 Q. Incidentally, Mr. Sattar, October 6 was a Friday, right? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10998 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. It was a Friday, yes. 2 Q. And Friday in Islam is a day of prayer? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there came a time in October of 2000 when 5 you actually spoke yourself with Alaa Abdul Raziq Atia? 6 A. Yes, I did. 7 Q. And then there was a conversation that you had with Rifa'i 8 Taha in which you told him about your conversation with Atia, 9 right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And the conversation with Rifa'i Taha is in evidence here, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. In fact, it is in evidence -- transcript of that telephone 15 call is in evidence twice, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You put a different translation than the government's 18 translation into evidence in your case, correct? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And basically the dispute between the two transcripts 21 really boils down to what it is that you told Rifa'i Taha about 22 your understanding about something that Atia had said to you, 23 is that correct? 24 A. My understanding -- 25 Q. The dispute between the two transcripts, the difference SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 10999 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 between the two transcripts boils down to how it transcribes 2 what you said to Rifa'i Taha about something Atia said to you? 3 A. Yes. The government just added a word there that was never 4 there or they translated -- I never used that word, so that 5 was -- 6 Q. Let's look at the two transcripts. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display for the jury 8 Government Exhibit 1192X in evidence? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I believe this telephone 11 call has a limiting instruction. 12 THE COURT: This telephone call, ladies and gentlemen, 13 is admitted solely with respect to Counts 2 and 3 of the 14 indictment and it is not admitted for the truth of any of the 15 matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Actually, your Honor, I apologize. 17 What I was referring to was 1194X, not 1192X, but 1194 does get 18 that same limiting instruction, as does 1192. 19 May I display 1194X? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Both 1192X and 1194X are 21 subject to the instruction, and you had mentioned 1192X, but 22 now you want to display 1194X? 23 MR. MORVILLO: I had meant to mention 1194, but both 24 of them do get the limiting instruction, just so there is no 25 confusion. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11000 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 THE COURT: That's the limiting instruction, ladies 2 and gentlemen, with respect to both Government Exhibits 1192 3 and 1194X. And the government can display 1194, Government 4 Exhibit 1194X in evidence. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is Government Exhibit 1194X on your 6 screen. Is it there? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. This is a telephone call that occurred on October 11, 2000? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it is between yourself and Rifa'i Taha? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Directing your attention to page 15 of this transcript, at 13 line 17 you stated to Rifa'i Taha: I only spoke to Muntasir a 14 couple of words. He told me: This brother got out of the 15 hospital and so, say hello to him -- peace be upon you brother, 16 how are you doing -- may the peace of God be upon you, too. 17 How are you -- then he gave me the other brother. 18 Muntasir is not Muntasir Al-Zayyat, right? 19 A. No. That was a man, he introduced me and -- Atia 20 introduced me on the phone and he said his name was Muntasir 21 and he just come out of the hospital, but I understand it was 22 coming out of jail. 23 Q. You understood that Muntasir had just been in prison and he 24 had just gotten out? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11001 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You spoke to Muntasir for a few minutes and you told Rifa'i 2 Taha, and at line 21 Rifa'i Taha says: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And 3 then you said at line 22: But I had a feeling that the other 4 brother is eager for things. I mean, his words show that he 5 has the ability and the readiness. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you're referring to Atia, right? 8 A. I'm referring to Atia, yes. 9 Q. This is where we have the dispute, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Ahmed Sattar 12 Exhibit 18-T in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. AS-18-T in evidence. 14 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see, this is the first page of AS-18-T? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And this is the transcript that corresponds to this 17 telephone call that we have been talking about, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And it is dated October 11, 2000? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Directing your attention to page 19 of AS-18-T where the 22 arrow is, do you see the arrow, Mr. Sattar? 23 A. I'm sorry? 24 Q. Do you see where I put the arrow? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11002 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. You state: The other brother is the one who said all this 2 talk. However, while talking to the other brother, I sensed 3 that he was -- I mean -- I mean -- eh. And Rifa'i Taha, who is 4 identified here as Abu Yasir says: I see, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you said: Anxious about things. And then you said, I 7 mean judging. And Rifa'i Taha says: I see. And you said, 8 continuing at the top of page 20: I mean, judging from the way 9 he spoke, that he had, I mean -- eh -- eh -- he had the 10 predisposition and the readiness to the -- to the -- to the 11 point where I - and then Abu Yasir says: I see. Then you say: 12 I mean, I felt that he -- that he was going to open up. So I 13 cut him off. 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. So there is a dispute between whether you said eager or 16 anxious, right? 17 A. There was a dispute between whether I said eager or 18 anxious, and another dispute. 19 Q. Yes. 20 A. The word ability or predisposition. 21 Q. Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Sattar, that the 22 conversation between you and Atia that you're describing to 23 Rifa'i Taha is also in evidence in this case, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I now display SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11003 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Government Exhibit 1192X in evidence? 2 THE COURT: Yes. Ladies and gentlemen, I have already 3 given you the limiting instruction with respect to that 4 transcript and recording. 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is 1192X. Is that on your screen? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And it is a call on October 11 of 2000? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Which is the same date of the call that you had with Rifa'i 10 Taha, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And this is the telephone conversation between yourself 13 and, among others, Atia? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Directing your attention to page 13 of Government Exhibit 16 1192X -- 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. -- Atia says to you at line 9: I tried to talk to Abu 19 Ahmed. 20 It is your understanding that Abu Ahmed is a reference 21 to Rifa'i Taha? 22 A. Yes. This is how he called him, yes. 23 Q. And he then continues: The engineer got mad. 24 The engineer is in reference to Salah Hashim? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11004 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And he said, meaning Salah Hashim, said: "If you speak to 2 him, I will never talk to you again, consider yourself in a 3 different category." Something like that. Right. 4 Did I read that correctly? 5 A. Yes. This is what he said. 6 Q. So Atia was telling you that Salah Hashim didn't want Atia 7 to speak to Abu Yasir? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then you responded saying: That's no good at all. God 10 knows that what the engineer says to Abu Ahmed is completely 11 different. I swear to God, it is distressing that he talks to 12 you like that. Atia responds: Let me tell you this, 13 Mr. Ahmed. And you said yes. And he says: Please, do not say 14 this to Abu Ahmed. 15 What he is telling you there, you understood, is he 16 didn't want you to tell Rifa'i Taha that Salah Hashim told Atia 17 not to speak with him? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And then you say at line 18: Listen, for your information, 20 I try as much as I can to achieve unification. Atia says: God 21 willing. And then you say: This is what I try to do. And 22 then Atia says to you: Let me tell you something. And you 23 said yes. And Atia says: God willing, we have very big 24 surprises. They will terminate all these things. 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11005 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And you respond to him on the next page, page 14 at line 1, 2 saying: Listen, again, for your information, my line is not 3 safe, so be eh -- and he says okay. 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. When he said to you, we have big surprises, it sounds like 6 he is saying that he is eager and ready to do something, 7 doesn't it? 8 A. No. It sounds like he is eager and wanted to talk to me 9 about things that I didn't want to hear it. 10 Q. So you told him that your line was not safe? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And what you meant by that when you said that to Atia was 13 that, hey, my phone is probably wiretapped? 14 A. Yes. Also, I meant I didn't want to hear it. This was an 15 easy way just to cut him off. I do not want to hear this. 16 Q. Now, Mr. Sattar, there came a time when you learned that 17 Atia was "in the hospital," right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. By that, you understood that he was either under arrest or 20 something worse had happened to him, that he had been killed, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And, in fact, you subsequently learned that Atia had been 24 killed by the Egyptian police, right? 25 A. Yes. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11006 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 Q. And in your testimony on direct you blamed Atia's death on 2 Mustafa Hamza and Rifa'i Taha, right? 3 A. Yes, I said that. 4 Q. Isn't it a fact that after you learned that Atia died you 5 told Yassir Al-Sirri that you were 99 percent certain that the 6 reason for Atia's death was due to the fact that your telephone 7 was wiretapped? 8 A. My telephone was wiretapped, could be. 9 Q. In fact, it turned out that you were right? 10 A. Yes, that I was right, yes. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 12 Exhibit 1205X in evidence? 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MORVILLO: May I have a minute? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, this exhibit also has a 17 limiting instruction attached to it. 18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, this exhibit and the 19 underlying recording, just to remind you, is admitted solely 20 with respect to Counts 2 and 3 of the indictment and cannot be 21 considered for the truth of the matters asserted with respect 22 to Ms. Stewart or Mr. Yousry. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you see Government Exhibit 1205X? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And this is a transcript of a telephone conversation that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11007 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 you had with Yassir Al-Sirri on October 23 of 2000? 2 A. Yes, this is what it is. 3 Q. And this is after Atia has been killed, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Directing your attention to page 9 of Government Exhibit 6 1205X -- 7 A. What line? 8 Q. I'm sorry. I just said page number, page 9. You're 9 talking about Atia on this page, right? At the top Yassir 10 Al-Sirri says: But was he calling from the same city? You 11 said: I don't know. I don't know where he was calling from. 12 And Al-Sirri says: Did you know that he was in Aswan? And you 13 said yes. Previously you testified that you knew that Atia was 14 in Aswan, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And Al-Sirri says: All right. My question is this. How 17 did they get them in Aswan? And what he is saying is, how did 18 the Egyptian police find Atia is Aswan, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you said: Possibly through me? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Al-Sirri responds: No. Abu Omar, how is that? Then 23 you respond by saying: What do you mean? "How"? Everything 24 is in the air. 25 What you're telling him is you think your phone is SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11008 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 wiretapped, right? 2 A. What I'm telling him, you know, he is saying -- he is 3 denying that I am saying it is possibly through my telephone, 4 yes, and he is saying no, Abu Omar, how is that. He cannot 5 believe that. I says: What do you mean, how? Everything is 6 in the air. Everything we speak is openly on the phone. The 7 phone could be intercepted by, you know -- could be wiretapped 8 or intercepted by anybody. 9 Q. Right. And your phone was wiretapped, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And at line 9 he says to you: So it may not be through 12 you, it can be just as well through -- don't make me -- when 13 you say "through," it is another problem unless you make an 14 announcement saying, "nobody is to call me on the phone." 15 Al-Sirri continues saying: Supposedly, it can be -- it is 16 possible it was through somewhere else. And then you respond, 17 at line 15: And it's also a big possibility it is from here, 18 because the brother called and gave me his phone number, the 19 place where he is staying here. And Al-Sirri says: There. 20 And you say: Yeah, there. He said: "When Mr. So and so 21 calls, give him this phone number." 22 What you're talking about there is when you spoke to 23 people over the phone you exchanged telephone numbers and, as a 24 result, if your phone was being monitored, people would know 25 the telephone numbers of the place where people were? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11009 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 A. I'm talking about this specific incident with Atia, that he 2 give me the phone number or the phone, so it could be the 3 American authority passing to the Egyptian authority, yes. 4 Q. So what you're saying is, right, once they had Atia's 5 telephone number they could give that to the Egyptian 6 authorities and the Egyptian authorities could then trace the 7 phone number and get a location and that's how he would have 8 been found? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. On page 11 of Government Exhibit 1205X, you continue to 11 talk about this. And at line 11 you state: For your 12 information, 99 percent I suspect it can be from here. And 13 Al-Sirri says: You can't say. And then you say: What do you 14 mean I can't? 15 You're talking about the fact that 99 percent are 16 convinced that it is because of your telephone that Atia was 17 killed, right? 18 A. I am talking about that, 99 percent, the information about 19 Atia was passed from here to the Egyptian authorities, yes. 20 Q. Based on what was heard over your telephone? 21 A. Based on what was heard over my telephone or any other 22 means. Could be anything. 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, you're familiar with the fact that Yassir 24 Al-Sirri published a statement on his website saying that at 25 the time Atia was killed he was planning on conducting a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11010 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 terrorist attack on tourists on October 24 of 2000 in Aswan? 2 A. Am I familiar with a statement from Al-Sirri, no, I am not. 3 Q. On his website. You're not familiar with that statement? 4 A. I'm not familiar with that statement. I can't recall that. 5 Q. Do you remember the e-mail that Mustafa Hamza sent out 6 after Atia's death that was introduced into evidence in this 7 case? 8 A. The e-mail that Mustafa Hamza sent to whom? 9 Q. Sent out to the brothers about Atia's death. Do you 10 remember that e-mail? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And in that e-mail didn't Mustafa Hamza say that the 13 Islamic Observation Center reported that Atia was going to 14 conduct a terrorist operation on October 24 in Aswan? 15 A. He could say that. I am not quite sure. I cannot remember 16 exactly what was in that statement, but, you know, I really 17 don't know that the Islamic Observation Center issued anything 18 like that. I am not quite sure. I really don't know. 19 Q. You said you never read that statement, one published by 20 Al-Sirri on his website saying that Atia was preparing to 21 conduct a terrorist attack on tourists in Aswan, Egypt on 22 October 24 of 2000. 23 A. I don't recall that Yassir Al-Sirri wrote a statement to 24 that effect, but I recall reading in the newspapers that this 25 was something to that effect was issued by the Egyptian SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11011 4CGMSAT2 Sattar - cross 1 government, not by Yassir Al-Sirri. I don't believe he said 2 that. I believe this was official -- the official statement by 3 the Egyptian government. They said that they killed him 4 because he was going to do such and such and such. This is 5 what I recall seeing or reading. 6 (Continued on next page) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11012 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Q. Mr. Sattar, we discussed -- you testified on your direct 2 examination about a number of wills that Sheikh Omar Abdel 3 Rahman -- 4 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, may we know the number of the 5 exhibits to which counsel is referring, referred in the last 6 series of questions? 7 MR. MORVILLO: You are talking about the e-mail? 8 MR. TIGAR: Yes. 9 May I confer with Mr. Morvillo? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 (Counsel conferring) 12 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I just have a brief 13 moment? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 (Counsel conferring) 16 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, that was a reference to 17 Government Exhibit 2014 which does get the limiting 18 instruction. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 Ladies and gentlemen, any of that last series of 21 questions and answers, with respect to the e-mail or the 22 website was admitted solely for, to the extent that there was 23 any testimony, can be considered solely with respect to the 24 witness' state of mind and cannot be considered for the truth 25 of any of the matters asserted with respect to Ms. Stewart or SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11013 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Mr. Yousry. 2 And, as I said, it was admitted, to the extent that 3 there was any testimony, it was solely with respect to the 4 witness' knowledge, intent or state of mind. 5 And I also remind you that questions are never 6 evidence, it's only the answers that are evidence. 7 And, as I will repeat in the course of my final 8 instructions, if a witness is asked whether something refreshes 9 the witness' recollection and it doesn't refresh his 10 recollection, the fact that he is, or she is asked about 11 whether something refreshes their recollection doesn't make 12 that matter in evidence. It is always the answers, not the 13 questions, that are evidence. Okay? 14 Go ahead. 15 MR. MORVILLO: May I proceed, your Honor? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 18 Q. Mr. Sattar, you testified on direct examination about 19 several wills that Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman had, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And, I wanted to ask you about the one that was introduced 22 in evidence in the government's case relating to his statement 23 to kill Americans, okay? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. That statement from Sheikh Abdel Rahman in which he called SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11014 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 for the murder of Americans was contained on a tape recording 2 that was found in your apartment, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And what you testified to on direct was that that tape you 5 obtained in connection with the Nasser Ahmed immigration 6 proceeding? 7 A. This was -- yes. 8 Q. And so, of course, you were familiar with the contents of 9 that tape recording, right? 10 A. I was. 11 Q. And you knew that, among other things on the statement, 12 Sheikh Abdel Rahman stated: 13 "You Muslims everywhere. Sever the ties of their 14 nation, tear them apart, ruin their economy, instigate against 15 their corporations, destroy their embassies, attack their 16 interests, sink their ships and shoot down their airplanes. 17 Kill them in land, at sea and in the air. Kill them wherever 18 you find them. Take them, surround them and lie in ambush for 19 them everywhere. Fight those infidels, treat them with 20 brutality. Fight them. 21 You are familiar with that statement, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you knew about that statement in 1999 when -- was it 24 Nasser Ahmed's hearing was in '99, was that when that happened? 25 '96? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11015 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. I'm not quite -- when Nasser what, when he was arrested or 2 released? 3 Q. When you took possession of the tape. 4 A. That was sometime in -- you know, through fighting his 5 case, I'm not quite sure. He was fighting from '96 until '99. 6 Q. There was a time in late 1998 when CNN got ahold of this 7 fatwah and asked some questions about it, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And so, at least by that time you had become familiar with 10 the contents of Sheikh Abdel Rahman's statement, right? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And you also had, in your possession, a printout of, from 13 CNN of the will written in Arabic, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Do you know who prepared that will? 16 A. Do I know who prepared -- 17 Q. That will. Who put it onto paper. 18 A. I am not -- I am not sure who did it. You know, I mean it 19 was, that piece of papers were given to me, you know, as what 20 says on it. I'm not sure who did, who prepared it. 21 Q. Not many people had access to Sheikh Abdel Rahman, right? 22 A. No, there were not many people who had access to Sheikh 23 Abdel Rahman. 24 Q. And so, someone had to get that statement from him, in 25 prison, on tape, and then someone had to take that tape and SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11016 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 take the quote out of the tape and make the will out of it, 2 right? 3 A. That-- that statement, it came out during an interview. If 4 you look at the same tape there is an interview on the tape, 5 you know, what do you call it, a press interview. The Sheikh 6 had an interview with an Arabic newspaper and it is on the same 7 tape. 8 Q. And that interview came out sometime in 1996, right? 9 A. I'm not sure if it was in '96 or '97. I'm not sure. 10 Q. But if it was an interview with a news organization it 11 would have been prior to the imposition of the Special 12 Administrative Measures, right? 13 A. It was before the SAM, yes. 14 Q. So, it's your testimony that you do not know who took the 15 words spoken by Sheikh Abdel Rahman on that tape and put them 16 in print on the will that you received from CNN? 17 A. I don't know. It's -- I really don't know who put them in 18 print, I don't know. 19 Q. But you are saying you did not do it? 20 A. No, I'm saying I did not do it; no. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 22 Exhibit 1231X, in evidence? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 Q. Mr. Sattar, this is a telephone conversation between 25 yourself and Jeanne King? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11017 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. That call was actually in English, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. That was played for the jury? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And that occurred on September 24th of 2001, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display page 8 from 9 Government Exhibit 1231X? 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 Q. Now, Jeanne King had called you to ask you some questions 12 about when the Special Administrative Measures were imposed, 13 right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And she was asking you what had happened and you said to 16 her that you thought it was in March of '97? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. In fact, it was April of '97, right? 19 A. I couldn't remember, so, yes. 20 Q. You were close. 21 And you said: What are you getting at, Jeanne? 22 At line 9. 23 And she says: What I'm getting at, what I'm getting 24 at is that we received word from a rep from our office 25 overseas. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11018 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 MR. TIGAR: May I confer with Mr. Morvillo, your 2 Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 (Counsel conferring) 5 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Tigar has reminded me 6 that there is a limiting instruction that Jeanne King's 7 statements are not admitted for the truth in this conversation. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 Ladies and gentlemen, any statements by Ms. King are 10 not received and cannot be considered for the truth of any of 11 the statements made by Ms. King. 12 Q. She tells you that they received from a rep, from our 13 office overseas, okay, and that person has, is the journalist 14 from the, of the French Daily Liberation -- that's the name of 15 the -- 16 And you say: Liberation. 17 And she says: Liber, yes. 18 And at line 20 she says: Okay. And a Journalist 19 named Hamid Mir, M-I-R. 20 And you say: Uh-huh. 21 And she says: Who is the editor in Islamabad. 22 And she says: Spent time with Bin Laden and has 23 written a biography of him. 24 She continued: Okay. Mir said he asked Bin Laden why 25 he ordered killing all Americans when this could involve SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11019 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 killing Muslims and innocent children. 2 And King continued: And Bin Laden reportedly said the 3 decision was based on a fatwah issued from prison by Sheikh 4 Omar Abdel Rahman. 5 And you responded: That's crap. 6 And then she said: Well, let me just finish, okay. 7 And you said: Yeah. 8 And she said: Uh, and he quotes, um, um, Abdel 9 Rahman's fatwah as saying... now this is the fatwah, okay? 10 And she quotes it to you: 11 "Cut all links with the United States, destroy them 12 completely and erase them from the face of the earth. Ruin 13 their economy, burn their companies, reduce their conspiracies 14 to dust, sink their ships, make their planes crash, massacre 15 them in the skies, on earth, and on the water." 16 And you say: Oh God, huh. 17 And she says: And it says then, it says that the text 18 is available in all Quranic schools in Pakistan. 19 And you said: Oh boy. Mmm. 20 And then you said: Hello? 21 And she says: I'm here, I'm here. I'm listening to 22 what you have to say. 23 And then you said: No, I'm just ah... you know, this 24 is... huh! Oh man. I don't know what to say. Just eh -- then 25 you pause -- I don't believe the Sheikh ever said such a thing. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11020 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 You said that to her, right? 2 A. Yes, I did. 3 Q. And, when you said that to her you were lying to her, 4 right? 5 A. Yes, I was. 6 MR. TIGAR: If your Honor, please, I believe there was 7 another limiting instruction in that transcript. 8 THE COURT: The transcript refers to Osama Bin Laden 9 and I previously instructed you and reminded you that Osama Bin 10 Laden is not alleged to be a co-conspirator in this case and 11 none of the defendants are charged with having conspired with 12 Osama Bin Laden. Osama Bin Laden is not alleged to be a 13 co-conspirator in this case. 14 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, I should have said this 15 earlier. This was an English language call, your Honor, in 16 displaying the transcript. 17 THE COURT: Right. The transcript, as you will 18 recall, ladies and gentlemen, is of an English language call 19 and so the transcript is an aid to your listening to the tape. 20 You have heard the tape and if you think you hear 21 some, or heard something differently on the tape from what is 22 in the transcript, it's always your hearing of the recording, 23 which is in evidence, that controls. The transcript is 24 displayed to you as an aid in order to be able to listen to the 25 underlying recording. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11021 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 Go ahead. 2 MR. MORVILLO: May I continue, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. Yes. 4 BY MR. MORVILLO:: 5 Q. Mr. Sattar, I just want to return for a second to the Kill 6 the Jews fatwah. 7 You stated that you made some small changes to that 8 fatwah before it was published, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I display Government 11 Exhibit 1183X? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 Q. And this is a transcript, Mr. Sattar, of your October 5th 14 telephone conversation with Rifa'i Taha, right? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. At line 1 you say: Thank God. 17 And Taha says: Anything new? 18 And you say: No, none at all. 19 And Taha says to you: Have you changed the title of 20 the statement the man issued. 21 And you say: Yes, I changed the title. 22 And you both laugh. 23 The second change came out better. 24 And Taha says: Hah? 25 And you say: The one next to it came out better. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11022 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 And Taha says: It's better than the first. 2 And you say ha. He says: It's better than the first, 3 I mean, this is better. 4 And you say: Yes. 5 You are referring to the changes you made where you 6 testified, on direct examination, where you changed the word to 7 Jews from Zionists? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And then Rifa'i Taha says to you: Is there any other 10 change made inside? 11 And you say: On what, you mean a change? 12 And Taha says: Yeah. 13 And you say: No, only a piece inside. I can't. 14 And Taha says: Hah? 15 And you said: There is another piece, a small piece 16 inside, I removed it. 17 And Taha says: That must be the one on your 18 relatives, for sure it is. 19 And you say: Ah! Ah! 20 What you are referring to is the fact that you took 21 out of the fatwah a reference to attacks on the United States 22 and its citizens, right? 23 A. I believe -- yes, it mentioned America or Americans so I 24 took it out, yes. 25 Q. And Rifa'i Taha said, at line 9: It can... but that's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11023 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 fine, we said "and those who..." 2 And what that's a reference to is the fact that the 3 statement still said and those who support them and their 4 advocates, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And so, Rifa'i Taha was happy because it still applied, in 7 his mind, in your understanding, to the United States of 8 America, right? 9 A. To the advocates, yes, is what he was saying, yes. 10 Q. And so, you removed from the fatwah a reference to the 11 United States? 12 A. I removed, yes, from the fatwah reference to the United 13 States or Americans. I'm not quite sure what the word was 14 exactly. Either Americans or America. 15 Q. Mr. Sattar, is that what you were referring to last week 16 when you told us that you defend the constitution of the United 17 States? 18 A. Yes. 19 MR. MORVILLO: You are quite a patriot. No further 20 questions. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 The last comment is stricken. The jury is instructed 23 to disregard. 24 Ladies and gentlemen, it's quarter after -- actually 25 it is only 10 after. I'm not sure when your lunch is coming. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11024 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 We're going to take a break and we will break for 20 minutes 2 and if -- for about 20 minutes and perhaps a bit more. If your 3 lunch comes, we'll take the luncheon break. 4 So, whether I'm giving you instructions now about this 5 break or the luncheon break, my instructions are still the 6 same. 7 Please, don't talk about this case at all. Please, 8 remember to keep an open mind until you have heard all of the 9 evidence, I have instructed you on the law, and you have gone 10 to the jury room to begin your deliberations. 11 I usually like to get Mr. Fletcher, so -- there is 12 Mr. Fletcher. 13 All right. Have a good break, ladies and gentlemen. 14 I will see you later. 15 All rise, please. 16 Please follow Mr. Fletcher to the jury room. 17 (Continued on next page) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11025 4CG5SAT3 Sattar - cross 1 (Jury not present) 2 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor? 3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Sattar is excused -- 4 Mr. Sattar may step down. 5 (Witness steps down) 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, at this time, on behalf of 8 Ms. Stewart, I renew motion for severance and motion for 9 mistrial based on counsel's last comment. 10 Mr. Sattar is a person of Egyptian origin, a 11 naturalized citizen of the United States, and a member of the 12 Muslim faith. Earlier in the examination Mr. Morvillo said, 13 "All you needed is a gun and a fatwah." His examination 14 contained repeated references to the Muslim faith and then to 15 have concluded it with that is, points up the difficulty. 16 We have, on behalf of Ms. Stewart, a hard enough row 17 to hoe dealing with her, on behalf of an unpopular defendant 18 and other defense, the comment made by piling on the way that 19 counsel did, I respectfully submit, is improper. We think we 20 have standing to complain about it and we think that the 21 impropriety, which while we appreciate the Court's sua sponte 22 action with respect to the jury -- and I did not rise because I 23 didn't want to draw attention to it -- I think calls for the 24 additional sanction that I have requested. 25 MR. PAUL: Your Honor, I will join in that SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11026 4CG5SAT3 1 application. 2 Just so the record is clear, I think Mr. Morvillo 3 certainly knows better than the last comment he threw in there 4 but, quite frankly, tactically I didn't think it was 5 appropriate to stand up in front of the jury, knowing full well 6 that I thought your Honor would handle it appropriately. 7 Nevertheless, given the fact that Mr. Morvillo, 8 throwing that out at the conclusion of his cross-examination I 9 do think, lends itself to an appropriate motion for a mistrial. 10 MR. RUHNKE: And we do join as well, your Honor. 11 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, of course we oppose. We 12 accept the Court's ruling on the motion to strike. 13 Mr. Sattar -- 14 THE COURT: There was no motion to strike. 15 MR. MORVILLO: It was sua sponte. 16 THE COURT: Counsel are quite right, I did it sua 17 sponte. 18 MR. MORVILLO: Right. 19 THE COURT: I struck it and instructed the jury to 20 disregard promptly without an objection being made. 21 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, Mr. Sattar testified at the 22 conclusion of his direct examination last week that he took an 23 oath in 1989 to defend the constitution of the United States 24 and he has always done so. 25 That last series of questions, in the government's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11027 4CG5SAT3 1 view, was fair rebuttal to his concluding testimony. 2 Additionally, he testified on direct examination about 3 his reaction to the September 11th attacks, and I believe your 4 Honor stated at the time that you admitted those conversations 5 that it did open the door to some cross-examination about his 6 opinions, his beliefs with respect to that event as it goes to 7 his state of mind with respect to the Count Two and Three 8 conspiracy. 9 And so, with respect to both of those issues, the 10 government submits that the last question and answer was 11 appropriate and the Court's striking of the final comment is 12 the only remedy that's necessary at this point. 13 And certainly a severance is not warranted given the 14 nature of Mr. Sattar's testimony on direct. 15 MR. TIGAR: If Mr. Morvillo is unwilling to do so much 16 as acknowledge the impropriety of his comment then I will add 17 to my motion, should the Court deny the motion for mistrial and 18 severance, a request that your Honor admonish Mr. Morvillo in 19 the presence of the jury with respect to what he did. 20 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, I would oppose that, of 21 course. I accepted -- as I stated I accepted the Court's 22 striking the comment immediately. 23 In the heat of the moment I was caught up in the end 24 of the cross-examination. It was a rhetorical comment. I 25 probably shouldn't have said it but I don't think that it's SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11028 4CG5SAT3 1 appropriate for the Court to admonish me in front of the jury 2 and I don't think it is appropriate for you to even admonish me 3 not in front of the jury. 4 I accept responsibility for it and I think the record 5 is complete as it stands. 6 THE COURT: Was it planned? 7 MR. MORVILLO: I had, prior to that final line of 8 questioning, considered asking a rhetorical question, at the 9 end, along those lines. 10 THE COURT: Well, I have already stricken the comment 11 and instructed the jury to disregard. I will also tell them 12 that the comment was improper. 13 It's a comment, it's not a question and that is a more 14 than sufficient remedy. 15 As to the other comments that were made in support of 16 a motion for severance or mistrial, first, there is no basis 17 for a motion for severance for all of the reasons that I have 18 previously explained and there is nothing in the substance of 19 the testimony that justifies severance. 20 There was one comment that counsel for Ms. Stewart 21 made that I should just note -- a couple of comments. 22 One is that the defendant labors under some burden for 23 representing unpopular clients. First of all, I don't consider 24 that to be a disadvantage or burden in any way. A lawyer has a 25 right to represent all clients. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11029 4CG5SAT3 1 Second, the defendant has attempted, affirmatively, as 2 I recall through her direct testimony, to put forward the 3 nature of the defendants that the defendant represents. So, 4 that's certainly not a basis to argue that there is some basis 5 for a severance or that the last comment somehow implicates a 6 basis for a mistrial. 7 Second, with respect to the issue of religion, it was 8 the defendant who affirmatively put forward aspects of his 9 religion in the course of his direct examination without 10 objection and testified as some length with respect to that. 11 And so, that doesn't support either severance or 12 mistrial. 13 I should add that I appreciate that Chief Judge 14 Mukasey gave an instruction on religion in the course of his 15 final charge to the jury in the Rahman case. I haven't been 16 asked to consider such an instruction in this case but would 17 consider such an instruction if the parties want me to. 18 His instruction on religion followed immediately on 19 his instruction with respect to speech. 20 MR. TIGAR: Your Honor, with respect to what I spoke 21 of as the tough row to hoe, I was referring to matters we had 22 briefed, particularly the Horowitz blog that we cited in our 23 motions, and I will leave it at that. That was the theme I was 24 picking up on. And I won't repeat the argument, I made it 25 there. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11030 4CG5SAT3 1 With respect to the religion comment, the legal basis 2 for my saying that this sort of comment can be difficult is 3 borne out by the Gross and the Hamilton article that we did 4 cite in our papers, and also by a very recent article in the 5 California Law Review by Professor Muneer Ahmed, my colleague 6 at Washington College of Law, just came out in California Law 7 Review on the way in which ethnic prejudice and religious 8 prejudice in the wake of 9/11 and the Iraq war, and so on, has 9 crept into the legal system. 10 And the statistical or empirical evidence martialled 11 by Professors Gross and Hamilton as well as Professor Ahmed, 12 was what I was talking about. Just to let your Honor know I 13 didn't make the motion out of the air. 14 I will get Professor Ahmed's article, there is a cite 15 to it, over the luncheon break. I just got it in the mail 16 yesterday. 17 THE COURT: Let me then return to the substance of the 18 request. 19 The comment does not justify a mistrial, it does not 20 justify a severance. 21 The issue was put out there by the defendant when he 22 talked about citizenship, the oath that he took, even putting 23 aside what the defendant sought to elicit as a result of the 24 tape relating to the reaction to 9/11. 25 But, in any event, it's a comment, it is not a SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11031 4CG5SAT3 1 question, and rhetorical flourishes don't belong in the 2 examination but it is, as I started off by saying, more than 3 sufficient for me, having promptly told the jury that the 4 comment was stricken and they're told to disregard, for me, in 5 addition, to say the comment was improper and I have already 6 instructed you to disregard it. 7 MR. MORVILLO: Your Honor, may I -- I understand the 8 comment was inappropriate. I said it was rhetorical. I would 9 volunteer to, in front of the jury, stand up and withdraw the 10 question or the comment and say that it was inappropriate and 11 apologize, if the Court would like me to. 12 MR. RUHNKE: Your Honor, we would certainly oppose 13 that. I mean -- we oppose that. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 The defendants oppose that and I think that that is 16 more than is actually required, though the defendants may think 17 it is less. 18 But, in any event, it is perfectly -- it is more than 19 sufficient and completely curative for me to do exactly what I 20 said I would do and that's what I shall do. 21 Next subject. After the defendant has testified and 22 the government has cross-examined, the other defendants are 23 given the opportunity also to examine. And so, my question is, 24 before redirect is there going to be any examination by any of 25 the other defendants? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11032 4CG5SAT3 1 MR. RUHNKE: Not on behalf of Mohammed Yousry, your 2 Honor. 3 MR. TIGAR: Not on behalf of Ms. Stewart, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Does -- I can't remember whether in the 5 other situations I've called on anyone else to say 'no 6 questions' or whether I have just passed back to redirect. 7 MR. TIGAR: It's an unaccustomed request, your Honor, 8 but I would prefer to remain silent. 9 MR. RUHNKE: We would also prefer that no inquiry be 10 made in front of the jury, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: All right. And how much more time, 12 Mr. Fallick? 13 MR. FALLICK: How much more time for redirect or how 14 much more time do I want -- 15 THE COURT: No, no, how much more time before we 16 begin. 17 MR. FALLICK: Your Honor, I would ask to break for 18 lunch now. I haven't had a chance to meet with Mr. Sattar at 19 all. 20 THE COURT: Right. 21 MR. FALLICK: So I ask that we break for lunch and I 22 will be ready at 2:00, if that's what your Honor wants. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 Lunch isn't here yet but we can -- I'm sure we will go 25 into the lunch hour, so, okay. SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11033 4CG5SAT3 1 MR. PAUL: Is your Honor going to give that last 2 instruction to the jury when we come back or are we going to do 3 that -- 4 THE COURT: Yes, I will do it at the next session. 5 I'm not -- 6 MR. PAUL: Okay. 7 THE COURT: I don't see any -- I already gave the jury 8 their instructions for lunch so Mr. Fletcher can simply tell 9 them we're breaking for lunch. 10 MR. PAUL: That's fine. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 (Luncheon recess) 13 (Continued on next page) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11034 4CGMSAT4 1 AFTERNOON SESSION 2 2:15 p.m. 3 (In open court; jury not present) 4 THE COURT: Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 5 (Jury present) 6 THE COURT: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. It 7 is good to see you all. 8 Ladies and gentlemen, at the conclusion of the morning 9 I struck the last comment by the government and instructed you 10 to disregard it. The comment was improper. As I say, the 11 comment was improper and therefore I repeat and emphasize that 12 the government's statement is stricken and I instruct you to 13 disregard it. 14 Mr. Sattar is on the stand. 15 Mr. Fletcher. 16 THE DEPUTY CLERK: Mr. Sattar, you are reminded you're 17 still under oath. 18 DEFENDANT SATTAR: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fallick, you may examine. 20 MR. FALLICK: Thank you, your Honor. 21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. FALLICK: 23 Q. Mr. Sattar, do you recall right before we broke for lunch 24 this morning that Mr. Morvillo was asking you questions about a 25 conversation you had on September 24, 2001 with Jeanne King? SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300 11035 4CGMSAT4 Sattar - redirect 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Ms. King is a reporter for Reuters? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Do you recall that Mr. Morvillo read to you passages from 5 this transcript, which is 1231X in evidence, where Ms. King was 6 asking you about a fatwah that Sheikh Rahman had issued to tie 7 into what Mr. Bin Laden had said? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you recall your answer was that it was crap? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you knew nothing about that statement of the Sheikh's? 12 A. Yes. I told her that, yes. 13 Q. Do you recall that you told Mr. Morvillo that you had lied 14 to Ms. King? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Why did you lie to Ms. King? 17 A. Why did I lie to Ms. King? 18 Q. Yes. 19 A. That was September 24, 15 days to the exact to September 11 20 where at the time we hear the news and saying 7,000 Americans 21 dead or injured. And Jeanne King -- what Jeanne King want to 22 do, she want to tie the Sheikh to this. I did not believe that 23 the Sheikh has anything to do with this. The man that I told 24 you that I admired is somebody is trying to connect him to the 25 worst acts of terrorism that I ever seen in my life. And it SOUTHERN DISTRICT REPORTERS, P.C. (212) 805-0300